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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 6, 2016 12:31:40 GMT -5
If the workers obeyed their laws, as the Bible instructs, would the government be stirred up? Can you tell us Which law did the workers break with the Sri Lanka gov't?The law is spelled out in the newspaper article in my first post on this thread. The workers/missionaries who have tourist visas rather than resident visas are violating the law. There are 6 foreign workers/missionaries there now. The gov. only allows 1 foreign missionary per 500 members. "The fold" as they call it there has less than 100 members in Sri Lanka...so they are not allowed to have any foreign workers/missionaries.
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Post by Grant on Dec 6, 2016 14:08:45 GMT -5
Seems as if the workers are participating in some kind of visa scam by trying to get in the back door by using false information and intent.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 14:35:32 GMT -5
Seems as if the workers are participating in some kind of visa scam by trying to get in the back door by using false information and intent. No, I credit them with far more honesty and integrity than that. That obviously would be fraud.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 14:38:48 GMT -5
Can you tell us Which law did the workers break with the Sri Lanka gov't? The law is spelled out in the newspaper article in my first post on this thread. The workers/missionaries who have tourist visas rather than resident visas are violating the law. There are 6 foreign workers/missionaries there now. The gov. only allows 1 foreign missionary per 500 members. "The fold" as they call it there has less than 100 members in Sri Lanka...so they are not allowed to have any foreign workers/missionaries. Christianity in the beginning was secretive after Jesus Death and resurrection i see no reason to change that behavior the gospel will be spread regardless of worldy laws...
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Post by fixit on Dec 6, 2016 14:55:22 GMT -5
The law is spelled out in the newspaper article in my first post on this thread. The workers/missionaries who have tourist visas rather than resident visas are violating the law. There are 6 foreign workers/missionaries there now. The gov. only allows 1 foreign missionary per 500 members. "The fold" as they call it there has less than 100 members in Sri Lanka...so they are not allowed to have any foreign workers/missionaries. Christianity in the beginning was secretive after Jesus Death and resurrection i see no reason to change that behavior the gospel will be spread regardless of worldy laws... Christianity in the book of Acts was far from secretive. It didn't take over the Roman empire by being secretive. When a church is run by people on tourist visas it will attract attention - especially when members are excommunicated by the tourists and enemies are created as a result.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 15:15:05 GMT -5
Christianity in the beginning was secretive after Jesus Death and resurrection i see no reason to change that behavior the gospel will be spread regardless of worldy laws... Christianity in the book of Acts was far from secretive. It didn't take over the Roman empire by being secretive. When a church is run by people on tourist visas it will attract attention - especially when members are excommunicated by the tourists and enemies are created as a result. ummm alot of christians met in secret in rome and there abouts they even established secret signs such as the fish symbol....
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Post by learning on Dec 6, 2016 15:43:19 GMT -5
Christianity in the beginning was secretive after Jesus Death and resurrection i see no reason to change that behavior the gospel will be spread regardless of worldy laws... Christianity in the book of Acts was far from secretive. It didn't take over the Roman empire by being secretive. When a church is run by people on tourist visas it will attract attention - especially when members are excommunicated by the tourists and enemies are created as a result. The 2x2 gospel "pioneers" (as the workers like to call it) into new areas of the world in any way possible. I am quite sure they wouldn't break any laws with an activist type attitude. If laws are bent or broken it's probably truly due to ignorance. Think about it - the workers are uneducated people when it comes to law & politics (among other topics). But if a subtle way around or way into a nation presents itself you can be sure it will be taken "when the time is right". I know of one Canadian Jewish born sister worker that was in Israel maybe 15-20 years ago on a student or work visa but was really there in a gospel/missionary purpose. A local church has an entire building and staff dedicated to "planting" churches around the world. They have legal staff, accountants, economic advisers, etc to find long lasting ways to positively effect the country they want to enter in a legal manner. One time someone from this other church told me they like to plant a mix of churches in high income and low income areas so as to balance the cash flow to benefit the church long term. For example, plant a church in a thriving affluent college town to attract future members with good earning potential and then plant another church in Nigeria that is cash-needy. While thinking about $$ in a church context is kind of distasteful to me personally, I'm aware that a good deal of logistics and thought is required to go into church planting to maintain the long term benefit to the local population. And 2x2 has none of that.
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Post by blandie on Dec 6, 2016 16:45:47 GMT -5
I am quite sure they wouldn't break any laws with an activist type attitude. If laws are bent or broken it's probably truly due to ignorance. Think about it - the workers are uneducated people when it comes to law & politics (among other topics). I don't think its ignorance - before issuing a visa whether its for tourism or work or mission type activities they ask you point blank ' what is the reason for your visit?' That happens for pre-applied visas and for visas issued at entry - its happened to me time after time and they wouldn't even know what type of visa to issue and for how long if that question wasn't answered. Not giving the real reason is lying - an assertion that intentionally departs from what the asserter knows/believes to be true.
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Post by learning on Dec 6, 2016 17:26:02 GMT -5
I am quite sure they wouldn't break any laws with an activist type attitude. If laws are bent or broken it's probably truly due to ignorance. Think about it - the workers are uneducated people when it comes to law & politics (among other topics). I don't think its ignorance - before issuing a visa whether its for tourism or work or mission type activities they ask you point blank ' what is the reason for your visit?' That happens for pre-applied visas and for visas issued at entry - its happened to me time after time and they wouldn't even know what type of visa to issue and for how long if that question wasn't answered. Not giving the real reason is lying - an assertion that intentionally departs from what the asserter knows/believes to be true. I see. What comes to mind is the oath of a witness to "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". If a worker were to write "visiting friends" on a visa request, that would be the truth, but not the whole truth. Might be a situation like that. I just can't see them outright lying or intentionally lying, for many reasons from integrity to liability.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 18:23:19 GMT -5
Bert in disguise? Surely! No, not Bert. It's our resident senior NZ worker. He's gone under various pseudonyms Noels, Review005, Conundrum etc. Thanks Ross. Very Bert-like is 4dtruth. Mind you my pal Noels hasn't been in touch for a very long time. How are things Noels? Your old pal. Me
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 18:25:44 GMT -5
I don't think its ignorance - before issuing a visa whether its for tourism or work or mission type activities they ask you point blank ' what is the reason for your visit?' That happens for pre-applied visas and for visas issued at entry - its happened to me time after time and they wouldn't even know what type of visa to issue and for how long if that question wasn't answered. Not giving the real reason is lying - an assertion that intentionally departs from what the asserter knows/believes to be true. I see. What comes to mind is the oath of a witness to "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". If a worker were to write "visiting friends" on a visa request, that would be the truth, but not the whole truth. Might be a situation like that. I just can't see them outright lying or intentionally lying, for many reasons from integrity to liability. In most countries ignorance of the law is no excuse. The responsibility to acquaint yourself is all yours!
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Post by blandie on Dec 6, 2016 18:40:24 GMT -5
Its not allowing me to scroll down and quote again so I'll just say that wasn't saying that its ok to deceive or lie when he said 'wise as serpents and innocent as doves' - tho an excuse for lying is just what some have quoted that as supporting. In other places for a long time some have been going in on work visas as 'teachers' when they have no teaching qualifications which is another deception and however they rationalize it away they aren't there primarily to 'visit friends' for 8 or more months at a time on a tourist visa. They are not complying with either the spirit or the letter of the law of those lands.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 18:56:12 GMT -5
Its not allowing me to scroll down and quote again so I'll just say that wasn't saying that its ok to deceive or lie when he said 'wise as serpents and innocent as doves' - tho an excuse for lying is just what some have quoted that as supporting. In other places for a long time some have been going in on work visas as 'teachers' when they have no teaching qualifications which is another deception and however they rationalize it away they aren't there primarily to ' visit friends' for 8 or more months at a time on a tourist visa. They are not complying with either the spirit or the letter of the law of those lands. This would only be a deception if it was stipulated that teachers must have teaching qualifications and the applicants did not. I have a friend who along with his wife left the UK to teach English in France to work forces in French companies. Neither had any qualifications to teach English and at the time their French was pretty sparse. They managed and have been doing fine. However, they did what they said they were entering France to do. Okay it is a fellow EU country where there is greater freedom of movement than Sri Lanka, but they still had to apply for the State benefits system etc., with much form filling etc.
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Post by blandie on Dec 6, 2016 19:16:34 GMT -5
I expect that their main reason for going to france was actually to teach english - if the teaching was just a subterfuge and they had gone and continued there primarily for some other purpose then they would have been deceptive on their application or statement when asked when getting the visa. Not telling the whole truth in order to deceive is still deception.
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Post by joanna on Dec 6, 2016 21:30:00 GMT -5
CherieKropp Your first post contains a "Letter to the Editor". It is therefore an opinion piece. It is unreferenced and subjective and supports religious sectarianism and therefore is a handy but insubstantial tool for those who thrive on this attitude. For all we know, @laverdad may be the letter writer
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2016 22:23:27 GMT -5
Romans 13:
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
pretty clear! admin
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 23:21:02 GMT -5
Romans 13: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. pretty clear! admin its pretty clear paul got it wrong on this one for example verse three: For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. this has been proven wrong in many many cases even today we see it is wrong.... however if you interpret it to mean the workers/apostles/bishops/deacons it would be more acceptable even still things happen that are wrong....
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Post by 4dtruth on Dec 7, 2016 0:49:46 GMT -5
Right... When the government and people are being stirred up against the workers, Cherie Kropp gleefully publically posts all the personal information about them that she can lay her hands on. Names, phone numbers, locations, nationalities, even editorials on their health. All without a "permission to print" statement. But the important thing is that we "stick to the topic". You'll be receiving your 30 pieces of silver from Telling the Truth in six to eight business days. Please see your email for the shipment tracking information. From what I can see, Cherie presents facts as she sees them without the snarky attitude that your posts are plastered with. Based on the attitude communicated in your respective posts, I would rather spend time with her than with you, which says a lot if you are a 'member' claiming to be on the right side of things. You just might get your wish. If you keep bringing a bad spirit to convention and speaking evil of the servants of God, an eternity with all the distinguished enemies of the Truth may be in store.
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Post by 4dtruth on Dec 7, 2016 0:52:08 GMT -5
If the workers obeyed their laws, as the Bible instructs, would the government be stirred up? I do agree that this is a very important thread. Not so much because it gives insight into a Sri Lanka situation, but because it gives insight into Cherie Kropp, 'Telling the Truth', and allies. There will be some reading here who are pondering whether they should send her some historical or current information about the fellowship in a foreign country. They might see a post from a "TTT" account that says something like: "Does anybody have information about the friends or workers in Cuba?" The behaviour captured in the preceding pages proves that at best, the information you send in will be treated carelessly, and published without any consideration of the potential consequences. At worst, or perhaps what you should expect, is that any information you submit will be used for malicious purposes. Targeting someone for deportation, for imprisonment, for a beating, perhaps even worse. Then a public denial of any responsibility (and perhaps a gleeful private celebration).
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Post by 4dtruth on Dec 7, 2016 0:54:27 GMT -5
Romans 13: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. pretty clear! admin its pretty clear paul got it wrong on this one for example verse three: For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. this has been proven wrong in many many cases even today we see it is wrong.... however if you interpret it to mean the workers/apostles/bishops/deacons it would be more acceptable even still things happen that are wrong.... I appreciate the example set in Acts Chapter 5, as it is the most applicable to a situation like this. "And when they called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name. And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ. As Peter and other apostles said earlier in the chapter, "We ought to obey God rather than men". Pretty clear! Religious persecution by governments has been a blight across the world for thousands of years. It is informative, though unsurprising, to see the mob mentality that emerges against the workers here. Doubtless, many of the shrill voices belong to churches that have smuggled Bibles or been 'creative' in using humanitarian aid to spread their religion in countries where religious freedom was restricted. And of course, there are some enemies within, who with the rebellious spirit of Korah will take any and every chance to slander those with responsibility of oversight.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 7, 2016 1:56:26 GMT -5
From what I can see, Cherie presents facts as she sees them without the snarky attitude that your posts are plastered with. Based on the attitude communicated in your respective posts, I would rather spend time with her than with you, which says a lot if you are a 'member' claiming to be on the right side of things. You just might get your wish. If you keep bringing a bad spirit to convention and speaking evil of the servants of God, an eternity with all the distinguished enemies of the Truth may be in store. It is fortunate indeed for everyone that these little fantasylands of hell and heaven do not exist and the best that can happen to them is to be useful food for the worms. Scaring people into submitting to your will so that a trip to Disney is on the cards is hilarious.
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Post by blandie on Dec 7, 2016 2:07:26 GMT -5
As Peter and other apostles said earlier in the chapter, "We ought to obey God rather than men". Except the jewish high priest/council had no authority to forbid the apostles to teach - they were standing in a province of rome. Under the herods they would have had authority but not at that particular time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 2:31:46 GMT -5
From what I can see, Cherie presents facts as she sees them without the snarky attitude that your posts are plastered with. Based on the attitude communicated in your respective posts, I would rather spend time with her than with you, which says a lot if you are a 'member' claiming to be on the right side of things. You just might get your wish. If you keep bringing a bad spirit to convention and speaking evil of the servants of God, an eternity with all the distinguished enemies of the Truth may be in store. Jesus is the Truth,Way and Life and those that follow Him will be part of it,they will bare the fruits of the Holy Spirit.They will have back bone to stand up against things that are wrong,that is what God expects of us as His children.Read were He spoke to the different churches in Revelations,even though not all in the church partook of the evil things He kept them responsible if they new about it and did NOTHING.
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Post by fixit on Dec 7, 2016 3:56:50 GMT -5
From what I can see, Cherie presents facts as she sees them without the snarky attitude that your posts are plastered with. Based on the attitude communicated in your respective posts, I would rather spend time with her than with you, which says a lot if you are a 'member' claiming to be on the right side of things. You just might get your wish. If you keep bringing a bad spirit to convention and speaking evil of the servants of God, an eternity with all the distinguished enemies of the Truth may be in store. The distinguishing should be between those who are servants of God and those who pretend to be.
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Post by fixit on Dec 7, 2016 4:35:04 GMT -5
If the workers obeyed their laws, as the Bible instructs, would the government be stirred up? I do agree that this is a very important thread. Not so much because it gives insight into a Sri Lanka situation, but because it gives insight into Cherie Kropp, 'Telling the Truth', and allies. There will be some reading here who are pondering whether they should send her some historical or current information about the fellowship in a foreign country. They might see a post from a "TTT" account that says something like: "Does anybody have information about the friends or workers in Cuba?" The behaviour captured in the preceding pages proves that at best, the information you send in will be treated carelessly, and published without any consideration of the potential consequences. At worst, or perhaps what you should expect, is that any information you submit will be used for malicious purposes. Targeting someone for deportation, for imprisonment, for a beating, perhaps even worse. Then a public denial of any responsibility (and perhaps a gleeful private celebration). Un-Christlike friends and workers have done more to harm the fellowship than all the exes put together.
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Post by sauerkraut on Dec 7, 2016 5:38:08 GMT -5
You just might get your wish. If you keep bringing a bad spirit to convention and speaking evil of the servants of God, an eternity with all the distinguished enemies of the Truth may be in store. The distinguishing should be between those who are servants of God and those who pretend to be. Exactly, not every Tom Dick or Harry who leads a group or a cult is a servant of God!
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Post by sauerkraut on Dec 7, 2016 5:44:57 GMT -5
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
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Post by joanna on Dec 7, 2016 6:19:06 GMT -5
fixit and sauerkraut and sauerkraut The Hebrew bible informs that Moses was a " servant of god yet he was a mass murderer. Seems there is some scope allowed when identified as a servant of god and I have not heard of any worker who has committed as horrendous a crime as Moses was responsible for.
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