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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 15:12:09 GMT -5
simpleton, we don't need a priestly caste to teach us how to think. Your perspective is not so enlightened as you might think. The consequences of that type of thinking have been disastrous throughout history, leading to all sorts of violence and immorality by those who supposed themselves to be serving God. God's grace and truth are freely offered to all people. T he Bible is written in plain language and for the most part it's pretty simple for anyone to understand. That's not to say we can completely comprehend all things about God himself but that's due to the nature of the subject, not the way the Bible is written or put together. The essentials that are necessary in order for one to be a disciple of Christ are plain from the teachings of Jesus himself: repentance from sin and loving submission to the master who died to bring us eternal life. Different books of the Bible were written for different purposes and from different contexts but that's not a difficult realization to make when one actually sits down to read on a regular basis. I agree that you you call the essentials are fairly obvious in the 4 Gospels. And I'd be very happy if that was ALL that people took away from reading the Bible...but unfortunately most people get a lot more 'ideas' from the bible than just that. Funnily enough, it's mainline Christianity which has its doctrine pretty much pared down to the 'essentials', while it is fundamentalist Christianity which has a lot of other garbage thrown in - case in point 2x2s. Oh, and I would like to point out that it was the ROMAN CHURCH which decided those 4 Gospels were to be in the Bible, and not the other many Gospels. Again, experts deciding what is Christianity and what isn't. If the Bible was so simply written and easy to understand, then why or why were you ever a 2x2? And furthermore why or why are there THOUSANDS of different denominations of so called Christian groups in the USA? Just the fact that 2x2s get all confused with the 'He sent them out two and two" line, is enough to tell you that the bible is not easy to understand. Seriously if a person is willing to get expert help on any other topic, except on Christianity, then they are a prideful ignoramus. There is simply no good reason to refuse expert help.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 16:37:56 GMT -5
You are you in error in your statement that the Roman Church was who decided that those four gospels were to be in the Bible to the exclusion of others. The Roman Church was one among many who had accepted and read those four for centuries before would could be called a Roman Catholic Church began to solidify. No, the gospels are not tainted by the Roman Catholic Church being among the many to recognize them.
What you call "2x2" is actually a pretty basic and simple system without much added. There are some practices that are debatable on Biblical standards, but overall the practices are not very complicated. The important thing in the context of this discussion is that those in the "2x2" meeting tend to accept the need to humble themselves and submit their wills to God in obedience. There is a general recognition that Christianity is not merely a system of belief detached from the practice of a daily life walking with God.
What do you mean by your question "If the Bible was so simply written and easy to understand, then why or why were you ever a 2x2?"? The fact that anyone can read and understand the Bible is upheld and practiced within these meetings as demonstrated by the fact that every member is expected to read the Bible regularly and give a testimony in each meeting.
Why are there so many different denominations? I'm sure you know that's a complex historical question, but we can't even begin to approach it without and understanding of the fact that not everyone desires to live a simple life of service and submission to God and unity and fellowship with all of his children. The proliferation of denominations is not explainable on the basis of the Bible being allegedly difficult to understand.
Since as you mentioned there are so many different denominations, who do you turn to if you're looking for an expert? I know, you recommended the Roman Catholic Church, but that's arbitrary, their historic connections aren't what their claimed to be, and a historic lineage doesn't make a group or person in modern times an expert anyway. Even assuming that premise, that's like saying you should turn to me for brain surgery because my grandfather was a neurosurgeon.
That aside, the Protestants have the same historic lineage as the Catholics. They simply made a decision at a point in time to make some changes in order to allegedly undo some of the changes that others had made before them. The Roman Catholic Church has no better claim even on the false grounds of historical lineage.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 17:00:11 GMT -5
You are you in error in your statement that the Roman Church was who decided that those four gospels were to be in the Bible to the exclusion of others. The Roman Church was one among many who had accepted and read those four for centuries before would could be called a Roman Catholic Church began to solidify. No, the gospels are not tainted by the Roman Catholic Church being among the many to recognize them. What you call "2x2" is actually a pretty basic and simple system without much added. There are some practices that are debatable on Biblical standards, but overall the practices are not very complicated. The important thing in the context of this discussion is that those in the "2x2" meeting tend to accept the need to humble themselves and submit their wills to God in obedience. There is a general recognition that Christianity is not merely a system of belief detached from the practice of a daily life walking with God. What do you mean by your question "If the Bible was so simply written and easy to understand, then why or why were you ever a 2x2?"? The fact that anyone can read and understand the Bible is upheld and practiced within these meetings as demonstrated by the fact that every member is expected to read the Bible regularly and give a testimony in each meeting. Why are there so many different denominations? I'm sure you know that's a complex historical question, but we can't even begin to approach it without and understanding of the fact that not everyone desires to live a simple life of service and submission to God and unity and fellowship with all of his children. The proliferation of denominations is not explainable on the basis of the Bible being allegedly difficult to understand. Since as you mentioned there are so many different denominations, who do you turn to if you're looking for an expert? I know, you recommended the Roman Catholic Church, but that's arbitrary, their historic connections aren't what their claimed to be, and a historic lineage doesn't make a group or person in modern times an expert anyway. Even assuming that premise, that's like saying you should turn to me for brain surgery because my grandfather was a neurosurgeon. That aside, the Protestants have the same historic lineage as the Catholics. They simply made a decision at a point in time to make some changes in order to allegedly undo some of the changes that others had made before them. The Roman Catholic Church has no better claim even on the false grounds of historical lineage. It was in the 2nd century AD when most of the NT was compiled and considered canon - that was done primarily by the bishops of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria. What we call the RCC today is nothing more than Constantine's legitimization of the already existing hierarchical organization and canon documents established primarily by the bishops of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria. 2x2 is not just a system about the 'Good News'. It is a system comprised of grave misreadings of the bible - in particular the need for home churches and same sex unwed pairwise ministers. Those two items are core doctrine of 2x2ism, and two items have absolutely no coherent basis in the Gospels. If a person could actually read and understand even just the Gospels, they would be able to see that home churches and pairwise ministers are not required to be Christian, however it's a very rare 2x2 who thinks those two things are optional. Therefore, 2x2s necessarily do not understand even the 4 Gospels, let alone the entire Bible. Almost every one of the thousands of Protestant denominations in the USA is based analogous misreadings of the Bible. From JWs to Mormons to Church of Christ to Mennonites to Amish, they all have extremely wrongheaded misunderstanding of the Bible. All of which is the direct result of prideful ignorance - not willing to read or listen to learned scholars. I recommend that folks start their exploration with the RCC because the RCC has the deepest intellectual tradition of all the different branches of Christianity. Have you read Aquinas? What about Augustine? What about Ignatius of Antioch? What about Clement of Alexandria? What about St Jerome? What about Francis of Assisi? What about Chesterton? It might surprise you to know that Martin Luther did not consider himself to be starting a new church, he only wanted to end some excesses of the Popes. The Church was fine, it was the Popes he was upset with. However, some enterprising German princes took Mr. Luther's ideas a bit further and decided to start their own church so that they would not have to pay taxes to the Popes of Rome. In fact Lutheranism as a Church isn't much different from the RCC or the Anglican church or any other mainline Protestant church. But all of those are remarkably different from the Fundamentalists and the extreme reformers like Menno. The extremists weren't just trying to 'nationalize' the RCC to avoid taxes, they were seriously divergent on basic doctrine. And 2x2s are just another one of those extreme groups. There was an explosion of these types of groups during the Reformation in northern Europe, and again at the end of the 1800's in the UK and USA.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2016 17:26:56 GMT -5
Mh, the apostles were NOT unlearned men. They'd spent over 3years with the Master of Theology, Jesus Christ. Just because people of those days said they were unlearned doesn't pan out. Ahh, but they were considered unlearned by the world's human standards. For "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise". They were considered unlearned by those who knew not Christ. It really doesn't say what those same folks thought after learning Jesus. I would think it " not understanding " who Christ was and is to continue saying his Apostles were unlearned men.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2016 17:34:11 GMT -5
As mentioned the 2x2s core doctrines are the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home. People have been excommunicated for not knowing and holding to that or purposefully refusing to respect that.
I think this doctrine could easily be said to be the 2x2 tenets of faith. That which separate them from other churches.
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Post by maryhig on May 6, 2016 17:52:36 GMT -5
Quote: So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people..... What about the apostles? They were perceived as unlearned Acts 4 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. It's not going to Bible college, or having a formal education, it's walking with Jesus and being taught by the holy spirit. Jesus said that he will send the comforter who will teach you all things. If you have the spirit of God within you, then you have the best teacher in the world. Yes, Gods people do bring Gods word to us, but we don't need smart educated people to get to know God. We need a soft heart and we need to love God with all our heart and follow Jesus. God won't be far from us if we truly love him, and we don't need to be trained in Bible college to love God. Mh, the apostles were NOT unlearned men. They'd spent over 3years with the Master of Theology, Jesus Christ. Just because people of those days said they were unlearned doesn't pan out. Yes your absolutely right they had Jesus, and because he was with them they didn't need to go to college and take exams they needed Jesus with them. And if he's risen in our hearts then we will be taught by the holy spirit of God, who is the best teacher of all. God is a living God he is able to teach his children direct to their hearts. We don't need college graduates who have studied the scriptures,(unless they're spirit led) we need to first hear the word from those who are inspired by the spirit of God who live by the will of God. Look at the apostles once they were led by the spirit compared to when they were deciples. They were much stronger and went preaching with power. Peter is a great example of this. And everything that Jesus taught them was brought to remembrance by the spirit. John 14 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you..... Some people seem think that it's always the top of the class fully educated people that God picks, that's not so. 1 Corinthians 1 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are. We can know the scriptures inside out, but we need the spirit within our hearts to be alive in God.
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Post by fixit on May 6, 2016 18:03:06 GMT -5
Mh, the apostles were NOT unlearned men. They'd spent over 3years with the Master of Theology, Jesus Christ. Just because people of those days said they were unlearned doesn't pan out. Theology is man's ideas and opinions about God. Hardly something Jesus would have wanted to be involved with.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 18:14:41 GMT -5
Mh, the apostles were NOT unlearned men. They'd spent over 3years with the Master of Theology, Jesus Christ. Just because people of those days said they were unlearned doesn't pan out. Theology is man's ideas and opinions about God. Hardly something Jesus would have wanted to be involved with. Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious belief. How do you come to know God if you don't study? Do you come to know God just by walking around and God pops into your head with all the information? Has that ever happened to anyone you know? If so, you probably called them a kook who claims to have visions.
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Post by magpie on May 6, 2016 18:24:23 GMT -5
Jesus a Hebrew boy.Learned to recite all scripture at school. His last year debating was the major subject.Now from 12 to 30.He would have had a chosen Rabbi to follow,still at work though, and only the best of the best at the end of the 18 years could have then been able to be called Rabbi.The fishermen recognised that as others,and the father was happy to let his sons follow.The Jews had a saying,something like this,"may your shoes be covered in your Rabbi's dust" (stay close to him) Have you ever studied the years of schooling and the 18 years Jesus would have walked through. Sort of fore runner to a current Theological Bible College? Jesus was a good graduate he was recognised as "RABBI". POOR "NEW HERE" MUST BE SO CONFUSED HERE, YOU HAVE NEAR ALL STOPPED GIVING HIM WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT,AS HE READS YOUR I'M RIGHT YOUR WRONG POSTS FIRED AT EACH OTHER,IT IS NO WONDER PEOPLE SO OFTEN WALK AWAY. SORRY "NEW HERE",,MAGGIE
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Post by fixit on May 6, 2016 18:41:20 GMT -5
Theology is man's ideas and opinions about God. Hardly something Jesus would have wanted to be involved with. Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious belief. How do you come to know God if you don't study? Do you come to know God just by walking around and God pops into your head with all the information? Has that ever happened to anyone you know? If so, you probably called them a kook who claims to have visions. It happened to Jesus, and they called him worse than a kook.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 18:52:22 GMT -5
Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious belief. How do you come to know God if you don't study? Do you come to know God just by walking around and God pops into your head with all the information? Has that ever happened to anyone you know? If so, you probably called them a kook who claims to have visions. It happened to Jesus, and they called him worse than a kook. Jesus is the Son of God - a divinity. I doubt you've met many divinities in your life walking around.
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Post by magpie on May 6, 2016 19:04:51 GMT -5
HAVE A HEART AND A LITTLE GODLY LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR,"NEW HERE". STOP SNIPING NOW. AND LOOK UP SHANE WILLARDS TALK ON "THE AUTHORITY OF THE RABBI". THEN YOU WILL HAVE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT,IT'S GOOD TEACHING.
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Post by Grant on May 6, 2016 19:04:55 GMT -5
Luke was a doctor. Hardly uneducated Paul and the others including Jesus were taught the scriptures from birth. If you think you don't have to learn from others and can do it just with the Holy Spirit in you then no wonder there so many interpretations of Scripture, almost as many as there are people. I certainly believe in sitting under the teachings of others including those who have gone before whether it be in a sermon, school or college situation. I wonder why you would go to convention for 4 days or even meetings? You just need you and God not the wisdom and teaching of others who God has given the gift of teaching his Word to. I don't think Jesus was unlearned and ignorant at all.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 6, 2016 19:32:37 GMT -5
I have to say ellie , that the list you provided is certainly the teachings of a group I want nothing to do with. Sounds positively frightening. I've seen teachings like this before from more than few groups - Rabbinic Orthodox or Conservative Judaism being the most rabid on these things. Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups being almost equal in their rabidity on these matters. But I must say that I have never ever heard or saw or been influenced in any way by the mainline Protestant Christian church I am a member of to believe or behave in any of the things you listed. Please understand that many Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups (2x2s are one such group) have created a warped doctrine that is part Rabbinic Judaism and part Christian. Mainline Christians (Protestant and Roman) have a much more canonical Gospels oriented doctrine, with little regard for Old Testament (Judaism) nonsense. In case you don't know what Mainline Protestant is, it is: Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Congregationalists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians. This is a great example of an accidental strawman argument. The writer assumes that all groups which call themselves Christians have basically the same doctrine, and then proceeds to skewer all Christians by focusing on the truly awful components of doctrine of the most extreme groups calling themselves Christian. This is exactly the same thing as pretending that 2x2 doctrine is somehow representative of mainline Protestantism or the Roman church - it's not even close. It's a wild aberration. I suggest you first spend some time learning what mainline Christianity is - frankly you should start at the source, the Roman Catholic Church. Then explore some of the mainline Protestant churches - you'll find them to be remarkably similar to the RCC on doctrine. If you want to learn about Christianity, go to the source - the Roman Catholic Church. Then spread out from there. Simpleton!
First, you say that you want noting to do with any group that teaches LIKE what Ellie stated. You say that it sounds positively frightening.
THEN, you turn around & advise that to learn about Christianity you should go to the Roman Catholic Church!! You say that you " have never ever heard or saw or been influenced in any way by the mainline Protestant Christian church I am a member of to believe or behave in any of the things you listed"
Either you don't know anything about the RCC, or you are simply being duplicitous. I tend to lean towards the latter after reading so many of you past posts
The Roman Catholic Church was the one who first taught Adam made in the image of God while teaching that Eve is just a helpmeet and Women are property available for sex, home making and possibly companionship.
Yep, they teachs women are the source of evil
RCC teaches women are inferior and not to be in positions of authority. This is a big one! Still no woman Catholic priests are there The Catholic church STILL teaches that the life of a fetus to be more important than the life of the mother if it comes to which one's life is to be saved!
- Spreads the idea that people have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad sinful people that need fixing AND still teaches original sin! RCC also teaches normal biological drives are wrong! That is the way they control people! They learned long, long ago that if you can control one of the most basics of a person's SEX life that whopee! do they have you by the you-know-what!
Yep ,also Teaches ideas there is something wrong with people who are attracted to the same gender Yep, also was one of the best at teaches anti-Semitism. (Just read a bit about the Pope & Cardinals during that Hitler's Holocaust of six million Jews!)
Yep, they also tell people that they will go to hell and teaches fear Uses the age old technique (that any abuser will be familiar with) of interlacing love with punishment (judgment) to control people.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 19:49:09 GMT -5
I have to say ellie , that the list you provided is certainly the teachings of a group I want nothing to do with. Sounds positively frightening. I've seen teachings like this before from more than few groups - Rabbinic Orthodox or Conservative Judaism being the most rabid on these things. Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups being almost equal in their rabidity on these matters. But I must say that I have never ever heard or saw or been influenced in any way by the mainline Protestant Christian church I am a member of to believe or behave in any of the things you listed. Please understand that many Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups (2x2s are one such group) have created a warped doctrine that is part Rabbinic Judaism and part Christian. Mainline Christians (Protestant and Roman) have a much more canonical Gospels oriented doctrine, with little regard for Old Testament (Judaism) nonsense. In case you don't know what Mainline Protestant is, it is: Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Congregationalists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians. This is a great example of an accidental strawman argument. The writer assumes that all groups which call themselves Christians have basically the same doctrine, and then proceeds to skewer all Christians by focusing on the truly awful components of doctrine of the most extreme groups calling themselves Christian. This is exactly the same thing as pretending that 2x2 doctrine is somehow representative of mainline Protestantism or the Roman church - it's not even close. It's a wild aberration. I suggest you first spend some time learning what mainline Christianity is - frankly you should start at the source, the Roman Catholic Church. Then explore some of the mainline Protestant churches - you'll find them to be remarkably similar to the RCC on doctrine. If you want to learn about Christianity, go to the source - the Roman Catholic Church. Then spread out from there. Simpleton!
First, you say that you want noting to do with any group that teaches LIKE what Ellie stated. You say that it sounds positively frightening.
THEN, you turn around & advise that to learn about Christianity you should go to the Roman Catholic Church!! You say that you " have never ever heard or saw or been influenced in any way by the mainline Protestant Christian church I am a member of to believe or behave in any of the things you listed"
Either you don't know anything about the RCC, or you are simply being duplicitous. I tend to lean towards the latter after reading so many of you past posts
The Roman Catholic Church was the one who first taught Adam made in the image of God while teaching that Eve is just a helpmeet and Women are property available for sex, home making and possibly companionship.
Yep, they teachs women are the source of evil
RCC teaches women are inferior and not to be in positions of authority. This is a big one! Still no woman Catholic priests are there The Catholic church STILL teaches that the life of a fetus to be more important than the life of the mother if it comes to which one's life is to be saved!
- Spreads the idea that people have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad sinful people that need fixing AND still teaches original sin! RCC also teaches normal biological drives are wrong! That is the way they control people! They learned long, long ago that if you can control one of the most basics of a person's SEX life that whopee! do they have you by the you-know-what!
Yep ,also Teaches ideas there is something wrong with people who are attracted to the same gender Yep, also was one of the best at teaches anti-Semitism. (Just read a bit about the Pope & Cardinals during that Hitler's Holocaust of six million Jews!)
Yep, they also tell people that they will go to hell and teaches fear Uses the age old technique (that any abuser will be familiar with) of interlacing love with punishment (judgment) to control people.I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over your completely ridiculous statements about the RCC. But I would like you to know that there is a big difference between conventional wisdom (the type of stuff that you spew around) and actual education. I highly recommend that you spend less time on this forum spewing out your half-truths, and instead make a concerted effort to study and learn. It's pretty easy these days with the internet - no one, not even you, has an excuse to be an ignoramus.
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Post by rational on May 6, 2016 20:34:34 GMT -5
These things really need whole library to address. However a few points to give you an idea to start with. Christianity: - Teaches Adam made in the image of God while teaching that Eve is just a helpmeet. Women as property available for sex, home making and possibly companionship. - Teaches women are the source of evil - Teaches women are inferior and not to be in positions of authority - Has sometimes encouraged life risking pregnancies and unaffordable number of children - Hase sometimes taught negative ideas about menstruation - Spreads the idea that people have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad sinful people that need fixing - Worse still teaches original sin - Teaches normal biological drives are wrong - Teaches ideas there is something wrong with people who are attracted to the same gender - Teaches anti-Semitism - Tells people that they will go to hell and teaches fear - Teaches people to be “good” people because someone “god” is watching thereby messing with people’s ability to be moral people when no one is watching - Teaches people to judge the morality of others on outward visual things that can be “watched” - Teaches physical child abuse (spare the rod spoil the child) - Demonstrates god to be the divine child abuser - Uses the age old technique (that any abuser will be familiar with) of interlacing love with punishment (judgment) to control people. This is a great example of an accidental strawman argument. The writer assumes that all groups which call themselves Christians have basically the same doctrine, and then proceeds to skewer all Christians by focusing on the truly awful components of doctrine of the most extreme groups calling themselves Christian. This is exactly the same thing as pretending that 2x2 doctrine is somehow representative of mainline Protestantism or the Roman church - it's not even close. It's a wild aberration. I suggest you first spend some time learning what mainline Christianity is - frankly you should start at the source, the Roman Catholic Church. Then explore some of the mainline Protestant churches - you'll find them to be remarkably similar to the RCC on doctrine. Most of the points mentioned are part of the doctrine of the RCC. They are indeed the source. If they are not supported by explicit points of the RCC doctrine they are strongly implied.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 20:36:58 GMT -5
I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over your completely ridiculous statements about the RCC. But I would like you to know that there is a big difference between conventional wisdom (the type of stuff that you spew around) and actual education. I highly recommend that you spend less time on this forum spewing out your half-truths, and instead make a concerted effort to study and learn. It's pretty easy these days with the internet - no one, not even you, has an excuse to be an ignoramus. You write like Luther, with those personal insults. Are you a Lutheran?
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Post by rational on May 6, 2016 20:40:56 GMT -5
I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over your completely ridiculous statements about the RCC.[quote[Not unexpected.[quyote]But I would like you to know that there is a big difference between conventional wisdom (the type of stuff that you spew around) and actual education. I highly recommend that you spend less time on this forum spewing out your half-truths, and instead make a concerted effort to study and learn. It's pretty easy these days with the internet - no one, not even you, has an excuse to be an ignoramus. Yet you have not been able to back up your claim with anything other than your opinion. If you want to tout the beliefs RCC perhaps providing some references to the dotrine of the RCC that supporet your claims so people can see that you are not an ignoramus.
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Post by Just Plain Jane on May 6, 2016 20:45:30 GMT -5
I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over your completely ridiculous statements about the RCC. But I would like you to know that there is a big difference between conventional wisdom (the type of stuff that you spew around) and actual education. I highly recommend that you spend less time on this forum spewing out your half-truths, and instead make a concerted effort to study and learn. It's pretty easy these days with the internet - no one, not even you, has an excuse to be an ignoramus. You write like Luther, with those personal insults. Are you a Lutheran? Ad hominem attacks are ultimately self-defeating. They are equivalent to admitting that you have lost the argument.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2016 20:53:26 GMT -5
Let's back off and stop personal insults please. This is no way to encourage new by a to keep trying to post their own experiences, viewpoints or opinions...whether highly educated or not
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 21:05:59 GMT -5
This is a great example of an accidental strawman argument. The writer assumes that all groups which call themselves Christians have basically the same doctrine, and then proceeds to skewer all Christians by focusing on the truly awful components of doctrine of the most extreme groups calling themselves Christian. This is exactly the same thing as pretending that 2x2 doctrine is somehow representative of mainline Protestantism or the Roman church - it's not even close. It's a wild aberration. I suggest you first spend some time learning what mainline Christianity is - frankly you should start at the source, the Roman Catholic Church. Then explore some of the mainline Protestant churches - you'll find them to be remarkably similar to the RCC on doctrine. Most of the points mentioned are part of the doctrine of the RCC. They are indeed the source. If they are not supported by explicit points of the RCC doctrine they are strongly implied. No they are not. Prove that all those points at current RCC doctrine. Nice to see that the resident inductive/deductive confuser is alive and kicking. And that you are still on your anti-RCC program. It's amazing that you waste so much of your life on this forum. Why not take your concerns about the RCC to a RCC forum? That's what a person truly interested in seeing if their views are correct would do - you do know your JS Mill don't you?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 21:06:57 GMT -5
I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over your completely ridiculous statements about the RCC. But I would like you to know that there is a big difference between conventional wisdom (the type of stuff that you spew around) and actual education. I highly recommend that you spend less time on this forum spewing out your half-truths, and instead make a concerted effort to study and learn. It's pretty easy these days with the internet - no one, not even you, has an excuse to be an ignoramus. You write like Luther, with those personal insults. Are you a Lutheran? Is God a Lutheran? Perhaps you aren't aware, but this user dmmichgood has spent many hours insulting me and throwing half truths at me in the past years. They are a very hostile user on this forum. Notice that they even go to the trouble to write in bold blue font. It's all a yelling match with this user. They have only a tentative grasp on reality, but they have a mouth (keyboard actually) that runs like a river.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 21:15:40 GMT -5
You write like Luther, with those personal insults. Are you a Lutheran? Ad hominem attacks are ultimately self-defeating. They are equivalent to admitting that you have lost the argument. Ad hominen fallacies and a host of other fallacies never stopped any of the regulars on this forum before.
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Post by howitis on May 6, 2016 21:27:16 GMT -5
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 21:31:24 GMT -5
Ad hominem attacks are ultimately self-defeating. They are equivalent to admitting that you have lost the argument. That's not technically true, but it does make it more difficult to focus on the rest of her arguments.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 6, 2016 21:44:09 GMT -5
Simpleton!
First, you say that you want noting to do with any group that teaches LIKE what Ellie stated. You say that it sounds positively frightening.
THEN, you turn around & advise that to learn about Christianity you should go to the Roman Catholic Church!! You say that you " have never ever heard or saw or been influenced in any way by the mainline Protestant Christian church I am a member of to believe or behave in any of the things you listed"
Either you don't know anything about the RCC, or you are simply being duplicitous. I tend to lean towards the latter after reading so many of you past posts
The Roman Catholic Church was the one who first taught Adam made in the image of God while teaching that Eve is just a helpmeet and Women are property available for sex, home making and possibly companionship.
Yep, they teachs women are the source of evil
RCC teaches women are inferior and not to be in positions of authority. This is a big one! Still no woman Catholic priests are there The Catholic church STILL teaches that the life of a fetus to be more important than the life of the mother if it comes to which one's life is to be saved!
- Spreads the idea that people have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad sinful people that need fixing AND still teaches original sin! RCC also teaches normal biological drives are wrong! That is the way they control people! They learned long, long ago that if you can control one of the most basics of a person's SEX life that whopee! do they have you by the you-know-what!
Yep ,also Teaches ideas there is something wrong with people who are attracted to the same gender Yep, also was one of the best at teaches anti-Semitism. (Just read a bit about the Pope & Cardinals during that Hitler's Holocaust of six million Jews!)
Yep, they also tell people that they will go to hell and teaches fear Uses the age old technique (that any abuser will be familiar with) of interlacing love with punishment (judgment) to control people. I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over your completely ridiculous statements about the RCC. But I would like you to know that there is a big difference between conventional wisdom (the type of stuff that you spew around) and actual education. I highly recommend that you spend less time on this forum spewing out your half-truths, and instead make a concerted effort to study and learn. It's pretty easy these days with the internet - no one, not even you, has an excuse to be an ignoramus. Perhaps you could "waste" at least a bit of your time verifying some of the statements that you make about the RCC. You could also use that time to educate all of us. Do you have a degree in the study of Christianity?
PS: I have several books on religion on my on-line book store I just sold a small King James bible of gift quality. I still have a regular size King James still in it's plastic wrap. "Catechism of the Catholic Church" as well as "Luther's Small Catechism" "The Book of Mormon." "The Quran," several "Bhagavad Gita" several concerning the Jewish beliefs. A really nice small illuminated gift book, "The Book of Psalms"
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Post by dmmichgood on May 6, 2016 22:02:29 GMT -5
simpleton, we don't need a priestly caste to teach us how to think. Your perspective is not so enlightened as you might think. The consequences of that type of thinking have been disastrous throughout history, leading to all sorts of violence and immorality by those who supposed themselves to be serving God. God's grace and truth are freely offered to all people. T he Bible is written in plain language and for the most part it's pretty simple for anyone to understand. That's not to say we can completely comprehend all things about God himself but that's due to the nature of the subject, not the way the Bible is written or put together. The essentials that are necessary in order for one to be a disciple of Christ are plain from the teachings of Jesus himself: repentance from sin and loving submission to the master who died to bring us eternal life. Different books of the Bible were written for different purposes and from different contexts but that's not a difficult realization to make when one actually sits down to read on a regular basis. I agree that you you call the essentials are fairly obvious in the 4 Gospels. And I'd be very happy if that was ALL that people took away from reading the Bible...but unfortunately most people get a lot more 'ideas' from the bible than just that. Funnily enough, it's mainline Christianity which has its doctrine pretty much pared down to the 'essentials', while it is fundamentalist Christianity which has a lot of other garbage thrown in - case in point 2x2s. Oh, and I would like to point out that it was the ROMAN CHURCH which decided those 4 Gospels were to be in the Bible, and not the other many Gospels. Again, experts deciding what is Christianity and what isn't. If the Bible was so simply written and easy to understand, then why or why were you ever a 2x2? And furthermore why or why are there THOUSANDS of different denominations of so called Christian groups in the USA? Just the fact that 2x2s get all confused with the 'He sent them out two and two" line, is enough to tell you that the bible is not easy to understand. Seriously if a person is willing to get expert help on any other topic, except on Christianity, then they are a prideful ignoramus. There is simply no good reason to refuse expert help. Oh, and I would like to point out that most of us already know that it was the ROMAN CHURCH which decided those 4 Gospels were to be in the Bible, and not the other many Gospels.
You see, we are not as wet-behind-the-ears as you tend to think we are!
However, not all of us believe that it was because they were "experts."
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Post by dmmichgood on May 6, 2016 22:05:22 GMT -5
I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over your completely ridiculous statements about the RCC. But I would like you to know that there is a big difference between conventional wisdom (the type of stuff that you spew around) and actual education. I highly recommend that you spend less time on this forum spewing out your half-truths, and instead make a concerted effort to study and learn. It's pretty easy these days with the internet - no one, not even you, has an excuse to be an ignoramus. You write like Luther, with those personal insults. Are you a Lutheran? Good lord No! She/he is a ROMAN Catholic! Can't you tell by the way she upholds the "Mother Church?"
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