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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 4, 2016 4:04:02 GMT -5
I wonder that you're so ready to believe the Bible is "full of lies". Have you considered that Erhman's books might be full of lies? To me the bible is just a badly written novel. The plot doesn't stack up at all.
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truevine
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Post by truevine on May 4, 2016 6:05:42 GMT -5
I don't agree with this thread, not believing the bible but getting answers from other people doesn't line up. Too much history and not enough faith. I won't comment further.
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 8:22:24 GMT -5
I wonder that you're so ready to believe the Bible is "full of lies". Have you considered that Erhman's books might be full of lies? Have you read anything by Erhman? He is a textual critic, interested in the story as it has been recorded and the contradictions found there. In the case of this work, his being an atheist frees him to regard the text as just text and not some divinely inspired work. If you can find a transcript of his debate with William Craig, the difference between someone who has actually researched the texts from a factual point and someone who is just going on their unsupported beliefs becomes very clear.
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 8:28:56 GMT -5
It represents life and I'm looking forward immensely to living forever with God in His Kingdom. This is the goal of all christians, isn't it? In you mind, living for ever does not pose a problem? Do you envision any set of activities? Humans have been around, in some form or another, for perhaps 1 million years. History might go back 10,000 years. You are looking forward to existing for billions of billions of years. Doing what? And then what?
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Post by ellie on May 4, 2016 8:51:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure how one could fully believe that and believe in Jesus. Do you not believe those accounts of his life are true? Read some of Bart Erhman's books for more info about Jesus. The OT is full of lies. Many of the supposed events in the OT not only don't have any archeological evidence for them, there is actually contra-evidence. The Exodus story is notorious for being an example of this. What do you believe about Jesus @simpleton?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 9:58:40 GMT -5
Read some of Bart Erhman's books for more info about Jesus. The OT is full of lies. Many of the supposed events in the OT not only don't have any archeological evidence for them, there is actually contra-evidence. The Exodus story is notorious for being an example of this. What do you believe about Jesus @simpleton ? My beliefs about Christianity are very pragmatic. Also Christianity is a very complex system which provides solutions to many issues of the human condition, something that even the best humanist systems cannot. It's a fantastic religion, far superior any other religion I've ever researched - particularly because of its focus on love. In my opinion, folks who are atheists simply do not understand the full suite of benefits of Christianity not not only to Western Civilization but also to themselves personally. Atheists are very much like liberals, in that they have utopic thinking despite the great mass of historical evidence to the contrary - in this case that humans have always had religion. Atheists who are former Christians are usually folks who've have a negative interaction with an improperly represented or aberrant version of Christianity. Case in point why many ex-2x2s are atheist.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 10:03:57 GMT -5
I don't agree with this thread, not believing the bible but getting answers from other people doesn't line up. Too much history and not enough faith. I won't comment further. Where do you distinguish between what is history and what is faith? Is the Exodus story history or faith? Is the Adam and Eve story history or faith? Is the entire bible history or faith? What about the Scriptures and Gospels which are not in the KJV Bible, but are in other versions or were excluded from all versions? Are they history or faith? The point is that where you draw the line between history and faith should not be subjective - you should use the same logic for all cases. That's what scholars of the NT and OT do - people like Erhman.
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 11:57:01 GMT -5
My beliefs about Christianity are very pragmatic. Also Christianity is a very complex system which provides solutions to many issues of the human condition, something that even the best humanist systems cannot. Name a couple as examples.And in my opinion I could say that theists cannot understand the delusion under which they exist. Perhaps you can point to some of the benefits that are exclusive to christianity.No, humans have not always had religion. And given the religions that are on record christianity is a newcomer on the block. Again, what is the great mass of evidence you have that show people would be better off with religion? And the atheists who have never been theists or christians?You have stated the case not can you provide support for your claim? What percentage of ex-2x2s are atheists? How does that compare with the population in general? One reason why so many atheists in this part of the world were formerly christians has nothing to do with a "... a negative interaction with an improperly represented or aberrant version of Christianity" but because the source of the atheists is overwhelmingly christian.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2016 20:55:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure how one could fully believe that and believe in Jesus. Do you not believe those accounts of his life are true? Read some of Bart Erhman's books for more info about Jesus. The OT is full of lies. Many of the supposed events in the OT not only don't have any archeological evidence for them, there is actually contra-evidence. The Exodus story is notorious for being an example of this. I'm not sure how one could fully believe that and believe in Jesus. Do you not believe those accounts of his life are true? Read some of Bart Erhman's books for more info about Jesus. The OT is full of lies. Many of the supposed events in the OT not only don't have any archeological evidence for them, there is actually contra-evidence. The Exodus story is notorious for being an example of this. You tend to use a very wide brush, when you state that "the OT is full of lies." The fact that the OT as well as the NT contains many "literary styles" of writing.
There is myth , history, fantasy, poetry, and many other types of literature. The problem lies in the fact that people who are living now want to believe it is a guide for living in today's world are hung up on wanting to believe every thing written within the bible is the absolute truth.
The "history" that is written in the bible is not subject to the same factual scrutiny that today's history is viewed!
It doesn't mean that the writers of the bible purposely "lied," -it simply means that they used the tools of their time in an attempt to present their understanding of the complex world in which they lived.
The problem lies not with the writers of the OT, nor the NT for that matter, -the real problem is people living today who still want to hang onto every thing written in the bible as absolutely meaningful!
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truevine
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Post by truevine on May 4, 2016 22:23:36 GMT -5
I don't agree with this thread, not believing the bible but getting answers from other people doesn't line up. Too much history and not enough faith. I won't comment further. Where do you distinguish between what is history and what is faith? Is the Exodus story history or faith? Is the Adam and Eve story history or faith? Is the entire bible history or faith? What about the Scriptures and Gospels which are not in the KJV Bible, but are in other versions or were excluded from all versions? Are they history or faith? The point is that where you draw the line between history and faith should not be subjective - you should use the same logic for all cases. That's what scholars of the NT and OT do - people like Erhman. I guess I should answer that even though I said I wouldn't comment further. My understanding about this is different, I guess...I have faith that God can reveal things to our hearts no matter whether we are lacking education, history, archaelogical evidence, parts of the bible, the bible at all, "simpletons" or geniuses. (Matthew 7:7-12) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Jesus said that we can ask God about anything!! He has opened the door of heaven for us AND intercedes on our behalf. What a blessing that we have on our side! I also believe that God wants to have a close, personal relationship with us. When I read what you are saying, it doesn't make sense why you would go to all of these other sources, when you can ask God directly for understanding and wisdom. Why get caught up in the history of whether the bible is fact or symbolic. I believe most of the bible actually happened, but why limit God by trying to analyze these things so deeply. God speaks to us in many ways and he isn't limited in his power. He even speaks to those that don't want to be spoken to, or are convinced they are correct in their thinking....trying to draw them to him. Go to the source for understanding!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2016 23:06:38 GMT -5
Where do you distinguish between what is history and what is faith? Is the Exodus story history or faith? Is the Adam and Eve story history or faith? Is the entire bible history or faith? What about the Scriptures and Gospels which are not in the KJV Bible, but are in other versions or were excluded from all versions? Are they history or faith? The point is that where you draw the line between history and faith should not be subjective - you should use the same logic for all cases. That's what scholars of the NT and OT do - people like Erhman. I guess I should answer that even though I said I wouldn't comment further. My understanding about this is different, I guess...I have faith that God can reveal things to our hearts no matter whether we are lacking education, history, archaelogical evidence, parts of the bible, the bible at all, "simpletons" or geniuses. (Matthew 7:7-12) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Jesus said that we can ask God about anything!! He has opened the door of heaven for us AND intercedes on our behalf. What a blessing that we have on our side! I also believe that God wants to have a close, personal relationship with us. When I read what you are saying, it doesn't make sense why you would go to all of these other sources, when you can ask God directly for understanding and wisdom. Why get caught up in the history of whether the bible is fact or symbolic. I believe most of the bible actually happened, but why limit God by trying to analyze these things so deeply. God speaks to us in many ways and he isn't limited in his power. He even speaks to those that don't want to be spoken to, or are convinced they are correct in their thinking....trying to draw them to him. Go to the source for understanding! Truevine, you did say when you came here that you were "looking for others who are struggling with or have overcome some of the same issues (you are) facing."
Also that you "have become very unhappy." It is good that you are becoming "an independent thinker."
That is what we do here (hopefully ) is independent critical thinking. That means that we do have to go to other sources if we really want to find out what is fact or what is just symbolic. Stay with us, most of us have been on quite a journey!
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Post by ellie on May 5, 2016 0:08:10 GMT -5
What do you believe about Jesus @simpleton ? My beliefs about Christianity are very pragmatic. Okay but that could mean a lot of things. Thinking of Jesus do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin or literally rose from the dead? Do you belive Jesus died for the sins of the world? I actually agree, but Christianity has also exacerbated some human issues. Which ones does it solve? What about the negative 2x2 experience people who jump to another church? That seems pretty common. I think there are multiple types of ex Christian atheists. One type are the negative experience people. Another type seem to have a clear understanding of mainstream Christianity. These people I have difficulty picturing turning mainstream Christian. Hard to quote from my phone so this is out of sequence. But I'd love reason to be a Christian again so please tell, what are these benefits?
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Post by rational on May 5, 2016 7:55:00 GMT -5
No problem at all - it will be excellent. Sounds like a Donald Trump answer! Well, you are a human and you do seem to be ecstatic about the prospect. How are you looking at the prospect? Do you have an outline of what you expect the first billion years to be? Or is this a case of I55 and you are working towards an unknown goal?
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truevine
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Post by truevine on May 5, 2016 19:03:43 GMT -5
I guess I should answer that even though I said I wouldn't comment further. My understanding about this is different, I guess...I have faith that God can reveal things to our hearts no matter whether we are lacking education, history, archaelogical evidence, parts of the bible, the bible at all, "simpletons" or geniuses. (Matthew 7:7-12) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Jesus said that we can ask God about anything!! He has opened the door of heaven for us AND intercedes on our behalf. What a blessing that we have on our side! I also believe that God wants to have a close, personal relationship with us. When I read what you are saying, it doesn't make sense why you would go to all of these other sources, when you can ask God directly for understanding and wisdom. Why get caught up in the history of whether the bible is fact or symbolic. I believe most of the bible actually happened, but why limit God by trying to analyze these things so deeply. God speaks to us in many ways and he isn't limited in his power. He even speaks to those that don't want to be spoken to, or are convinced they are correct in their thinking....trying to draw them to him. Go to the source for understanding! Truevine, you did say when you came here that you were "looking for others who are struggling with or have overcome some of the same issues (you are) facing."
Also that you "have become very unhappy." It is good that you are becoming "an independent thinker."
That is what we do here (hopefully ) is independent critical thinking. That means that we do have to go to other sources if we really want to find out what is fact or what is just symbolic. Stay with us, most of us have been on quite a journey!
I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at in your post. I've always been an independent thinker, I just didn't always realize that my thinking about Christ/God was so much different than those that I meet with at meeting. Thus, the unhappiness I have experienced lately. I do feel hopeful though that I will be able to have fellowship with others that have similar thinking as I do. I've even begun to find some like that already. I think it's ok to research if that helps your understanding and faith....I only posted because it seems that Simpleton was recommending that others disregard God's word (even calling it mythical and lies) and ask other men to sort out salvation for us. I don't agree with that. I really don't want to argue about it though, it's been good for me to think about it for myself and find my hope renewed in God as my true source of help.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 21:28:12 GMT -5
I think it's ok to research if that helps your understanding and faith.... I only posted because it seems that Simpleton was recommending that others disregard God's word (even calling it mythical and lies) and ask other men to sort out salvation for us. I don't agree with that. I really don't want to argue about it though, it's been good for me to think about it for myself and find my hope renewed in God as my true source of help. The funny thing about the Bible (OT & NT) is that it was written by humans, not written by God. Furthermore the books which were decided to be included in the Bible (many books were excluded), this decision was made by humans. I highly recommend that you read some books by Biblical scholars - again Bart Erhman is a good place to start.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 22:26:15 GMT -5
I think it's ok to research if that helps your understanding and faith.... I only posted because it seems that Simpleton was recommending that others disregard God's word (even calling it mythical and lies) and ask other men to sort out salvation for us. I don't agree with that. I really don't want to argue about it though, it's been good for me to think about it for myself and find my hope renewed in God as my true source of help. The funny thing about the Bible (OT & NT) is that it was written by humans, not written by God. Furthermore the books which were decided to be included in the Bible (many books were excluded), this decision was made by humans. I highly recommend that you read some books by Biblical scholars - again Bart Erhman is a good place to start. if you have that much disregard for the Bible what are you basing your beliefs on?
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Post by rational on May 5, 2016 23:08:39 GMT -5
I know about heaven (and hell) and what it will be like based on what God has said in His Word. What are the specifics that god's word gives about heaven? Streets of gold, for example, don't elicit thoughts of comfort and joy.
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Post by rational on May 5, 2016 23:10:05 GMT -5
The funny thing about the Bible (OT & NT) is that it was written by humans, not written by God. Furthermore the books which were decided to be included in the Bible (many books were excluded), this decision was made by humans. I highly recommend that you read some books by Biblical scholars - again Bart Erhman is a good place to start. Can't go wrong with the unbiased thoughts of an atheist!
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 1:08:09 GMT -5
I actually agree, but Christianity has also exacerbated some human issues. Which ones does it solve? What about the negative 2x2 experience people who jump to another church? That seems pretty common. I think there are multiple types of ex Christian atheists. One type are the negative experience people. Another type seem to have a clear understanding of mainstream Christianity. These people I have difficulty picturing turning mainstream Christian. Hard to quote from my phone so this is out of sequence. But I'd love reason to be a Christian again so please tell, what are these benefits? ellie, I do not know your experience or your perspective, or what you believe Christianity to be, so I'm not sure how to approach this. Can you explain how you believe Christianity has exacerbated some human issues, and what you mean by that? I wonder what your understanding is of what it means to be a Christian. Sometimes people use the term "Christian" very broadly to include any person or group that claims to follow the teachings of Christ or the Bible. I do not know whether that is how you are using the term or not, but I do not believe that is the definition of a Christian. I do not mean to imply that I can see inside another person's heart, but I believe God has given us some tools to discern among claims of Christianity. For instance, Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits. If a religious reformer condemns a person to death because of a difference in beliefs, I am not able to call him a Christian. I do not believe such wicked fruit can come from a life that is given over to God. A true Christian is one who believes and follows the master with his whole heart and has set aside his own will to serve him. I do not mean to suggest that we achieve complete perfection while in this world, but if we commit ourselves to God, he will accept us and help us to grow in him and will use us for purposes beyond our human understanding and will. The Sermon on the Mount was no joke. Jesus truly meant for his disciples to love even their enemies. He showed the most powerful example of this when he died on the cross. His followers for hundreds of years were willing to lay down their lives for his name, setting aside all human thoughts of defending themselves forcefully against their persecuters. Couldn't they have done that? If they had not trusted the Saviour and loved him enough to obey his will for them, I believe that many would have done so, just as many who called themselves Christians in later ages fought and killed. Yet the Lord's faithful followers trusted that he would not leave them in death but would raise them to eternal life, and they trusted him to use them as a powerful testimony to his glory throughout the ages.
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Post by ellie on May 6, 2016 10:33:54 GMT -5
I actually agree, but Christianity has also exacerbated some human issues. Which ones does it solve? What about the negative 2x2 experience people who jump to another church? That seems pretty common. I think there are multiple types of ex Christian atheists. One type are the negative experience people. Another type seem to have a clear understanding of mainstream Christianity. These people I have difficulty picturing turning mainstream Christian. Hard to quote from my phone so this is out of sequence. But I'd love reason to be a Christian again so please tell, what are these benefits? ellie, I do not know your experience or your perspective, or what you believe Christianity to be, so I'm not sure how to approach this. Can you explain how you believe Christianity has exacerbated some human issues, and what you mean by that? These things really need whole library to address. However a few points to give you an idea to start with. Christianity: - Teaches Adam made in the image of God while teaching that Eve is just a helpmeet. Women as property available for sex, home making and possibly companionship. - Teaches women are the source of evil - Teaches women are inferior and not to be in positions of authority - Has sometimes encouraged life risking pregnancies and unaffordable number of children - Hase sometimes taught negative ideas about menstruation - Spreads the idea that people have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad sinful people that need fixing - Worse still teaches original sin - Teaches normal biological drives are wrong - Teaches ideas there is something wrong with people who are attracted to the same gender - Teaches anti-Semitism - Tells people that they will go to hell and teaches fear - Teaches people to be “good” people because someone “god” is watching thereby messing with people’s ability to be moral people when no one is watching - Teaches people to judge the morality of others on outward visual things that can be “watched” - Teaches physical child abuse (spare the rod spoil the child) - Demonstrates god to be the divine child abuser - Uses the age old technique (that any abuser will be familiar with) of interlacing love with punishment (judgment) to control people.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 12:33:37 GMT -5
ellie, I do not know your experience or your perspective, or what you believe Christianity to be, so I'm not sure how to approach this. Can you explain how you believe Christianity has exacerbated some human issues, and what you mean by that? These things really need whole library to address. However a few points to give you an idea to start with. Christianity: - Teaches Adam made in the image of God while teaching that Eve is just a helpmeet. Women as property available for sex, home making and possibly companionship. - Teaches women are the source of evil - Teaches women are inferior and not to be in positions of authority - Has sometimes encouraged life risking pregnancies and unaffordable number of children - Hase sometimes taught negative ideas about menstruation - Spreads the idea that people have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad sinful people that need fixing - Worse still teaches original sin - Teaches normal biological drives are wrong - Teaches ideas there is something wrong with people who are attracted to the same gender - Teaches anti-Semitism - Tells people that they will go to hell and teaches fear - Teaches people to be “good” people because someone “god” is watching thereby messing with people’s ability to be moral people when no one is watching - Teaches people to judge the morality of others on outward visual things that can be “watched” - Teaches physical child abuse (spare the rod spoil the child) - Demonstrates god to be the divine child abuser - Uses the age old technique (that any abuser will be familiar with) of interlacing love with punishment (judgment) to control people. I have to say ellie, that the list you provided is certainly the teachings of a group I want nothing to do with. Sounds positively frightening. I've seen teachings like this before from more than few groups - Rabbinic Orthodox or Conservative Judaism being the most rabid on these things. Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups being almost equal in their rabidity on these matters. But I must say that I have never ever heard or saw or been influenced in any way by the mainline Protestant Christian church I am a member of to believe or behave in any of the things you listed. Please understand that many Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups (2x2s are one such group) have created a warped doctrine that is part Rabbinic Judaism and part Christian. Mainline Christians (Protestant and Roman) have a much more canonical Gospels oriented doctrine, with little regard for Old Testament (Judaism) nonsense. In case you don't know what Mainline Protestant is, it is: Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Congregationalists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians. This is a great example of an accidental strawman argument. The writer assumes that all groups which call themselves Christians have basically the same doctrine, and then proceeds to skewer all Christians by focusing on the truly awful components of doctrine of the most extreme groups calling themselves Christian. This is exactly the same thing as pretending that 2x2 doctrine is somehow representative of mainline Protestantism or the Roman church - it's not even close. It's a wild aberration. I suggest you first spend some time learning what mainline Christianity is - frankly you should start at the source, the Roman Catholic Church. Then explore some of the mainline Protestant churches - you'll find them to be remarkably similar to the RCC on doctrine. Biggest problem for ex-2x2s: Trying to wrap their head around the idea that 2x2ism is not really Christianity. Just like Jehovah Witness is not really Christianity. Both are aberrant cults. When 2x2s get fed up with 2x2ism, because they don't understand that 2x2ism isn't really Christianity, many end up being atheist or trying to find something similar to 2x2ism but without the legalistic workers. Both choices are intellectually sloppy. If you want to learn about Christianity, go to the source - the Roman Catholic Church. Then spread out from there.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 13:03:30 GMT -5
I cannot say that I agree that your list is representative of the teachings of Christianity.
Many of the things in your list do not come even close to describing Christianity. Some of them might be held by some minor sect somewhere. Some of the others can be recognized as common distortions.
It is true that Christianity does not teach that human beings are the highest standard and everything we desire or feel or do is without fault. Christianity teaches that whatever faults we have, there is a loving God who desires to redeem us.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 13:12:35 GMT -5
These things really need whole library to address. However a few points to give you an idea to start with. Christianity: - Teaches Adam made in the image of God while teaching that Eve is just a helpmeet. Women as property available for sex, home making and possibly companionship. - Teaches women are the source of evil - Teaches women are inferior and not to be in positions of authority - Has sometimes encouraged life risking pregnancies and unaffordable number of children - Hase sometimes taught negative ideas about menstruation - Spreads the idea that people have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad sinful people that need fixing - Worse still teaches original sin - Teaches normal biological drives are wrong - Teaches ideas there is something wrong with people who are attracted to the same gender - Teaches anti-Semitism - Tells people that they will go to hell and teaches fear - Teaches people to be “good” people because someone “god” is watching thereby messing with people’s ability to be moral people when no one is watching - Teaches people to judge the morality of others on outward visual things that can be “watched” - Teaches physical child abuse (spare the rod spoil the child) - Demonstrates god to be the divine child abuser - Uses the age old technique (that any abuser will be familiar with) of interlacing love with punishment (judgment) to control people. I have to say ellie , that the list you provided is certainly the teachings of a group I want nothing to do with. Sounds positively frightening. I've seen teachings like this before from more than few groups - Rabbinic Orthodox or Conservative Judaism being the most rabid on these things. Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups being almost equal in their rabidity on these matters. But I must say that I have never ever heard or saw or been influenced in any way by the mainline Protestant Christian church I am a member of to believe or behave in any of the things you listed. Please understand that many Fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups (2x2s are one such group) have created a warped doctrine that is part Rabbinic Judaism and part Christian. Mainline Christians (Protestant and Roman) have a much more canonical Gospels oriented doctrine, with little regard for Old Testament (Judaism) nonsense. In case you don't know what Mainline Protestant is, it is: Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Congregationalists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians. This is a great example of an accidental strawman argument. The writer assumes that all groups which call themselves Christians have basically the same doctrine, and then proceeds to skewer all Christians by focusing on the truly awful components of doctrine of the most extreme groups calling themselves Christian. This is exactly the same thing as pretending that 2x2 doctrine is somehow representative of mainline Protestantism or the Roman church - it's not even close. It's a wild aberration. I suggest you first spend some time learning what mainline Christianity is - frankly you should start at the source, the Roman Catholic Church. Then explore some of the mainline Protestant churches - you'll find them to be remarkably similar to the RCC on doctrine. Biggest problem for ex-2x2s: Trying to wrap their head around the idea that 2x2ism is not really Christianity. Just like Jehovah Witness is not really Christianity. Both are aberrant cults. When 2x2s get fed up with 2x2ism, because they don't understand that 2x2ism isn't really Christianity, many end up being atheist or trying to find something similar to 2x2ism but without the legalistic workers. Both choices are intellectually sloppy. If you want to learn about Christianity, go to the source - the Roman Catholic Church. Then spread out from there. Looking to the modern Roman Catholic Church to learn about something that began 2000 years ago is not a very direct route to the truth, to put it mildly. It is true that the Roman Catholic Church was a fairly early (4th century) sect, but its early development was in parallel with other groups who believed they were holding more faithfully to the original New Testament teachings, such as the Montanists and Donatists. The fact that the Roman Catholic Church very early turned to physical force as a means of eliminating competing views does not indicate that it is able to stand as an example of true Christianity or to call itself the source of historic Christianity, but rather is a recognizable divergence from the teachings of Christ. I would recommend starting with the Sermon on the Mount. Starting at Matthew 5.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2016 13:42:19 GMT -5
A couple of point to remember: 1) Religion is not history. Religion is not science. Do not ever confuse those things. If you have a good education in history and science then many of the hucksters who peddle dumb-dumb versions of spirituality will be immediately obvious to you. Take for example the 2x2 claim that they are the only group with apostolic succession - clearly false if you know anything about the history of the middle ages. Tiny amount of literate people. The only places teaching literacy were the monasteries. Very few scrolls of the Scriptures in existence since so expensive to make. Monasteries built in fortified encampments to be safe from the extreme level of lawlessness. You get the picture - It's quite remarkable that even the Roman Catholic Church survived the fall of the Roman Empire, let alone some group like the 2x2s surviving. 2) If you want to learn about pretty much any topic, you go to a recognized center of learning to learn from widely respected experts. So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people like the 2x2 ministers? Seems pretty stupid to me. I'd start by finding someone who had been trained formally from a good institution in theology. Guess what, that's what a priest is. If you see a church which doesn't have a minister/priest trained from a highly credible institution, leave immediately. You can come back, but only after you've had a proper education in Christianity from someone who has been trained. Otherwise it's just blind leading the blind. 3) The Bible is not a historical document. It is a mythical document. It is a guidebook of sorts about spirituality. However, it is extremely difficult to understand and very easy to get confused. In order to understand the Bible, you first need to learn How To read the Bible. Guess what, that's what priest are for - to help you. A proper church even has a system for how to read the Bible, a system which takes 3 years to complete reading the Bible. Sounds like a set of university courses doesn't it? Doesn't that sound a lot more thorough than the 2x2 method? 4) If you find yourself in a church which claims that only you members of that church are 'saved' or whatever else they call it, leave immediately. Exclusivity is the definition of a cult. 5) If you find yourself in a church which talk about you needing to be obedient to the ministers or priests, leave immediately. That's the mark of a cult. In a proper church the parish members (The Friends in 2x2 lingo) should have a lot of control over the ministers - the ability to fire them even. Ministers/priests are spiritual advisors - and NOTHING MORE. They do not have some sort of special knowledge about marital relations, garden planting times, dispute resolutions, career choices, parenting techniques, clothing choices, etc. Giving credence to a minister/priest about matter other than spiritual advice is tantamount to complete foolishness. 6) If you find yourself in a church which doesn't have a strong appreciation for the high culture and history of Western Civilization, leave immediately. Christianity and Western Civilization go hand-in-glove. If you strip one from the other, you are left with rubbish. 7) In all things in life, don't try to re-invent the wheel. Many people smarter than you and I have walked these roads before us. Never think that somehow you and your small group of people have got a monopoly on knowledge (that's what the 2x2s believe), since the probability of that being true is effectively zero. Seek out smart educated people and ask questions. You will find the answers. Quote: So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people..... What about the apostles? They were perceived as unlearned Acts 4 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. It's not going to Bible college, or having a formal education, it's walking with Jesus and being taught by the holy spirit. Jesus said that he will send the comforter who will teach you all things. If you have the spirit of God within you, then you have the best teacher in the world. Yes, Gods people do bring Gods word to us, but we don't need smart educated people to get to know God. We need a soft heart and we need to love God with all our heart and follow Jesus. God won't be far from us if we truly love him, and we don't need to be trained in Bible college to love God. Mh, the apostles were NOT unlearned men. They'd spent over 3years with the Master of Theology, Jesus Christ. Just because people of those days said they were unlearned doesn't pan out.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 13:50:08 GMT -5
Looking to the modern Roman Catholic Church to learn about something that began 2000 years ago is not a very direct route to the truth, to put it mildly. It is true that the Roman Catholic Church was a fairly early (4th century) sect, but its early development was in parallel with other groups who believed they were holding more faithfully to the original New Testament teachings, such as the Montanists and Donatists. The fact that the Roman Catholic Church very early turned to physical force as a means of eliminating competing views does not indicate that it is able to stand as an example of true Christianity or to call itself the source of historic Christianity, but rather is a recognizable divergence from the teachings of Christ. I would recommend starting with the Sermon on the Mount. Starting at Matthew 5. I knew there would be a fundamentalist here that would say something like you did. The bible is only the canonical document of Christianity - it is not Christianity nor is each or all things written in it Christianity. Just like the Koran is not Islam, it is just the canonical document of Islam. This is a very important point which people tend to not understand. If you want to only learn from the Bible, without any of the help of the many people who have studied it before you, then you are almost certain to get yourself confused - case in point all the totally lost Fundamentalist Christian groups. Learn HOW TO READ THE BIBLE first, then actually read it. That's the first big mistake people make. The second big mistake is they make is to ignore all the thinking and writing scholars have done to help you understand the meanings and themes of the bible. I simply cannot understand where such prideful ignorance comes from. On any other topic, be it Vector Mechanics, Astronomy, Economics, etc, people are more than happy to read the thoughts of experts on the topics rather than start from first principles themselves. Even reading Shakespeare or Chaucer, people prefer to have assistance since just the changes in the English language and the context in the few hundred years since it was written make them nearly indecipherable to the average person. But when it comes to the Bible somehow everyone thinks that the Bible is as simple to understand as Dick and Jane first grade reader. That all of Christianity is contained with in the Bible, and that all is easy to see just by reading it. Seriously, this is the height of prideful ignorance. This is fundamentalist claptrap. I've read a lot of the 'classic' books. Books like "The Basic Works of Aristotle", "The Collected Dialogues of Plato", "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus", "Leviathan", "Principia Mathematica", "Critique of Pure Reason", and many more. These are very hard books to read and understand. Very hard. The Bible is much harder. Why? Because the Bible is a collection of books selected much after the fact to comprise the canon. The books themselves are not chronological. The books themselves are not written with the intention of clarity of explication. The books themselves for the most part assume that the reader is extremely familiar with all the other books of the Bible, as there is an incredible amount of cross referencing and contextualizing going on that's extremely important. Toss in the historical context of when each book was written, and that in and of itself is enough to confuse most people who aren't familiar with the history. Then there the non-historical nature of the books, but to the untrained eye seem historical. Then there is the multiple authorship of the books - I mean that many of the individual books were written by many different people across a huge span of time and in different locations - there is no one sole author for most of the individual books of the bible, let alone for the entire bible. Then toss in all the multitudes of problems with translation to English. If you think that you personally can sit down and read and understand the true meanings of the Bible by yourself, you are the most prideful ignoramus on the planet.
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May 6, 2016 13:50:34 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2016 13:50:34 GMT -5
I don't agree with this thread, not believing the bible but getting answers from other people doesn't line up. Too much history and not enough faith. I won't comment further. There are plenty of people on TMB who believe that the Bible is God's Word and it has authority in all matters of faith and conduct. Don't be put off by those who bag the Bible. It represents life and I'm looking forward immensely to living forever with God in His Kingdom. By His grace He has given me that gift and I'm definitely not going to hand it back! I agree. I can testify that what the bible says about and of Jesus is true. My vision and experience within that vision verifies that. Calvary Chapel church has an old castle that they've turned into bible college. Many lay men and women have taken advantage of that. And I'm not rooting for Calvert Chapel church when I say that. O can remember my sense of betrayal when the truth about the "truth" was first come to me. It was so bad I even questioned all of my raising.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 14:28:27 GMT -5
Mh, the apostles were NOT unlearned men. They'd spent over 3years with the Master of Theology, Jesus Christ. Just because people of those days said they were unlearned doesn't pan out. Ahh, but they were considered unlearned by the world's human standards. For "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise".
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 6, 2016 14:45:12 GMT -5
simpleton, we don't need a priestly caste to teach us how to think. Your perspective is not so enlightened as you might think. The consequences of that type of thinking have been disastrous throughout history, leading to all sorts of violence and immorality by those who supposed themselves to be serving God. God's grace and truth are freely offered to all people. The Bible is written in plain language and for the most part it's pretty simple for anyone to understand. That's not to say we can completely comprehend all things about God himself but that's due to the nature of the subject, not the way the Bible is written or put together. The essentials that are necessary in order for one to be a disciple of Christ are plain from the teachings of Jesus himself: repentance from sin and loving submission to the master who died to bring us eternal life. Different books of the Bible were written for different purposes and from different contexts but that's not a difficult realization to make when one actually sits down to read on a regular basis.
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