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Post by entropy on Apr 30, 2016 19:15:49 GMT -5
Hi all,
I hope this is in the proper section, please move it if not, Thanks!
Let me begin by saying that I am a born and raised, currently professing, and baptized twenty-something year old guy in the western united states. A few years or so ago I got a wild hair when I was on wikipedia and I looked up the "Black stocking faith". I had heard that an old settler in America's history belonged to it and that it was what people called the truth back then. I was pleasantly amused as I read the article and it described meetings, their format, the workers, even how some had a problem with how the truth views divorce and remarriage. These were all things I had grown up with and was familiar with. Then I read about how this dude William Irvine started the truth back in the late 1800's...... uh what? I stopped reading there for some reason. I was talking with my father later and I said something about how I had found what the world thinks of our church on wikipedia. His response was something along the lines of "Yeah, just be careful with things you read on the internet, most of the people who post are lot of disgruntled people who left the truth and have something against it. There are even some who go so far as to say this way was started by some guy back in the 1800's, but I heard he was just some worker who got some crazy ideas and went off the deep end." This explanation made good sense to me at the time and the whole matter was put from my mind.
Fast forward a few years to about three weeks ago.... I am sitting at a friends house on my laptop and for whatever reason I type in the name of the convention I normally go to on google. This board pops up. I am no stranger to internet forums and I thought, given the rather reclusive nature of the friends (always hearing don't distribute this and that), it seems strange that the friends would maintain a message board. I start reading....
I'm sure you all are well familiar with what happened next, I've read enough threads by people just like me who happen to stumble upon this site. The way I would describe my world being turned upside down is that if my life were a container of liquid that has had experiences and emotions sprinkled in it to build up into layers over the years... someone just jammed a mixer into it at high speed...
I've never really questioned this way before, I've always been told to read my bible, that Jesus is the ultimate standard, and if we see anything even in this way that doesn't meet or measure to that standard that it is not true or correct and the way is being polluted by man's ideas. Being born in this way, I have always known that this way is the one true way. That it is the only church that has been continuous from christ until now. I have always known that people are not perfect, and it is to be expected from time to time that people screw up, and we should pray for people who are going through hardship. I have been pretty good about reading my bible and praying daily. I see myself to be a very spiritually serious person, and I do believe that we are held accountable by god. I try to hold my self to high level of accountability.
Now that I look on "The truth" with more scrutiny I can definitely see faults, not to mention the bombshell that it's only been around from around 1897. I also see many good things. I can not fault the truth for how i've been raised. I have absolutely excellent parents who have done their absolute best by me and have raised me in a very stable and nurturing environment. As I've gotten older and moved from home I can see their faults as well, and have grown to accept that nobody is perfect, and they are still salt of the earth people who have given me more that I could have ever asked for. I was raised in what many would consider to be a very "healthy" area as far as the truth is concerned. I was never pressured to make any choices like professing or baptism. I have very few negative experiences with the workers and i've always chalked that up to them being human, we all know everyone makes mistakes. I have never had any of the negative experiences that many others who have posted have had. I do not feel like I was robbed of a childhood or friends, sure there were things we didn't do and I wasn't allowed to do, but I can see most of that as actually having a good impact on my life. Things like not having a TV growing up have forced me to learn certain skills and develop a work ethic that puts me above many of my peers when it comes to competition in the job market. (wow I come off sounding very arrogant there, I don't mean it that way, just trying to get my thoughts out)
Over the past three weeks I have had time to settle down a bit. I have been completely silent to anybody about this which is pretty much the only reason I'm posting this here, I need to at least get this off of my chest.
I'm left to wonder "Where does this leave me?" to be honest... I don't really know. I don't plan on making an exodus anytime soon, I don't really feel discouraged, but that sour taste of what feels like of betrayal is definitely there. I use the word feels because I don't feel like those around me have purposefully misled me. However, I see a huge amount of ignorance, and it really makes me wonder about the whole blind leading the blind thing.... I will definitely have a chat with some of workers....
I have felt one definite change in my heart that has been very comforting to me. I am now truly in pursuit of truth, not just someones interpretation of it. (I was taught this from my birth, and would surely have no problem giving it as advice, but it sure feels strange applying it to ME.)
There is a very ingrained feeling that I have even now typing this that in researching and learning more of the origins of this way and learning even about other ways that I am somehow doing something sinful... I'm sure there are those who are ignorant/head-in-the-sand to the point that they would say something about man's words vs god and tell me that I will hurt my faith. The sad thing is that I can see that coming from certain immediate family members. My feeling is this: God has a truth. The truth needs no alibi. I will not find evidence contrary to truth, if I do, a much more careful look is needed to see if something is actually truth (scientific method if you will). I still have this feeling though... and looking at it from a logical perspective I am beginning to see the effects of 20 or so years of social conditioning. I have always been an open-minded person, and yet I have now unearthed a whole plethora of things that I would have never expected to find in myself.
I guess I should begin to wrap this up. I apologize for this not being very organized at all, and possibly not making too much sense, but it is my reality at this point in time. I also apologize for any grammatical errors and any serious run-ons, I'm sure there's probably a few in here.
In summary, I've had a major section of my life turned upside down. I'm not about to do anything rash, but I am going to be doing a lot reading and praying as never before. I know the truth will come out, and now I can truly say in prayer that I am thankful for truth. Thank you whoever you are for reading my thoughts if you got this far. I really appreciate your care even though I don't know you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 19:25:59 GMT -5
it took me about a week to get over the betrayed feeling then I happen to find @nathanb website with the story of William Irvine sister and about the waldenses/vaduois you should have him provide a link for his site so you can read some more.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 19:36:26 GMT -5
I believe that there are MANY sincere people in the "Truth". I believe there have been some major flaws in the leadership that have created needless stress on so many over the past nearly 120 years. The biggest flaw is unchecked authority that keeps its members in the dark about so many issues and problems. Lives have been ruined trying to maintain a facade of a perfect way. Too many (myself included) were too focused on the way and its expectations-not necessarily bad but not focused on what matters most. I believe God does work in this way and that His bride comes from a cross section of beliefs that see HIM above and beyond their group.
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Post by speak on Apr 30, 2016 21:41:27 GMT -5
Hi all, I hope this is in the proper section, please move it if not, Thanks! Let me begin by saying that I am a born and raised, currently professing, and baptized twenty-something year old guy in the western united states. A few years or so ago I got a wild hair when I was on wikipedia and I looked up the "Black stocking faith". I had heard that an old settler in America's history belonged to it and that it was what people called the truth back then. I was pleasantly amused as I read the article and it described meetings, their format, the workers, even how some had a problem with how the truth views divorce and remarriage. These were all things I had grown up with and was familiar with. Then I read about how this dude William Irvine started the truth back in the late 1800's...... uh what? I stopped reading there for some reason. I was talking with my father later and I said something about how I had found what the world thinks of our church on wikipedia. His response was something along the lines of "Yeah, just be careful with things you read on the internet, most of the people who post are lot of disgruntled people who left the truth and have something against it. There are even some who go so far as to say this way was started by some guy back in the 1800's, but I heard he was just some worker who got some crazy ideas and went off the deep end." This explanation made good sense to me at the time and the whole matter was put from my mind. Fast forward a few years to about three weeks ago.... I am sitting at a friends house on my laptop and for whatever reason I type in the name of the convention I normally go to on google. This board pops up. I am no stranger to internet forums and I thought, given the rather reclusive nature of the friends (always hearing don't distribute this and that), it seems strange that the friends would maintain a message board. I start reading.... I'm sure you all are well familiar with what happened next, I've read enough threads by people just like me who happen to stumble upon this site. The way I would describe my world being turned upside down is that if my life were a container of liquid that has had experiences and emotions sprinkled in it to build up into layers over the years... someone just jammed a mixer into it at high speed... I've never really questioned this way before, I've always been told to read my bible, that Jesus is the ultimate standard, and if we see anything even in this way that doesn't meet or measure to that standard that it is not true or correct and the way is being polluted by man's ideas. Being born in this way, I have always known that this way is the one true way. That it is the only church that has been continuous from christ until now. I have always known that people are not perfect, and it is to be expected from time to time that people screw up, and we should pray for people who are going through hardship. I have been pretty good about reading my bible and praying daily. I see myself to be a very spiritually serious person, and I do believe that we are held accountable by god. I try to hold my self to high level of accountability. Now that I look on "The truth" with more scrutiny I can definitely see faults, not to mention the bombshell that it's only been around from around 1897. I also see many good things. I can not fault the truth for how i've been raised. I have absolutely excellent parents who have done their absolute best by me and have raised me in a very stable and nurturing environment. As I've gotten older and moved from home I can see their faults as well, and have grown to accept that nobody is perfect, and they are still salt of the earth people who have given me more that I could have ever asked for. I was raised in what many would consider to be a very "healthy" area as far as the truth is concerned. I was never pressured to make any choices like professing or baptism. I have very few negative experiences with the workers and i've always chalked that up to them being human, we all know everyone makes mistakes. I have never had any of the negative experiences that many others who have posted have had. I do not feel like I was robbed of a childhood or friends, sure there were things we didn't do and I wasn't allowed to do, but I can see most of that as actually having a good impact on my life. Things like not having a TV growing up have forced me to learn certain skills and develop a work ethic that puts me above many of my peers when it comes to competition in the job market. (wow I come off sounding very arrogant there, I don't mean it that way, just trying to get my thoughts out) Over the past three weeks I have had time to settle down a bit. I have been completely silent to anybody about this which is pretty much the only reason I'm posting this here, I need to at least get this off of my chest. I'm left to wonder "Where does this leave me?" to be honest... I don't really know. I don't plan on making an exodus anytime soon, I don't really feel discouraged, but that sour taste of what feels like of betrayal is definitely there. I use the word feels because I don't feel like those around me have purposefully misled me. However, I see a huge amount of ignorance, and it really makes me wonder about the whole blind leading the blind thing.... I will definitely have a chat with some of workers.... I have felt one definite change in my heart that has been very comforting to me. I am now truly in pursuit of truth, not just someones interpretation of it. (I was taught this from my birth, and would surely have no problem giving it as advice, but it sure feels strange applying it to ME.) There is a very ingrained feeling that I have even now typing this that in researching and learning more of the origins of this way and learning even about other ways that I am somehow doing something sinful... I'm sure there are those who are ignorant/head-in-the-sand to the point that they would say something about man's words vs god and tell me that I will hurt my faith. The sad thing is that I can see that coming from certain immediate family members. My feeling is this: God has a truth. The truth needs no alibi. I will not find evidence contrary to truth, if I do, a much more careful look is needed to see if something is actually truth (scientific method if you will). I still have this feeling though... and looking at it from a logical perspective I am beginning to see the effects of 20 or so years of social conditioning. I have always been an open-minded person, and yet I have now unearthed a whole plethora of things that I would have never expected to find in myself. I guess I should begin to wrap this up. I apologize for this not being very organized at all, and possibly not making too much sense, but it is my reality at this point in time. I also apologize for any grammatical errors and any serious run-ons, I'm sure there's probably a few in here. In summary, I've had a major section of my life turned upside down. I'm not about to do anything rash, but I am going to be doing a lot reading and praying as never before. I know the truth will come out, and now I can truly say in prayer that I am thankful for truth. Thank you whoever you are for reading my thoughts if you got this far. I really appreciate your care even though I don't know you. Have you prayed to God about what you have written here? If so what was His answer?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2016 23:46:45 GMT -5
Welcome entropy. Thank you for posting. Glad to have you.
It is a bit hard at first to hear the "truth" about the *TRUTH.* I was also born & raised in the *TRUTH.*
Second generation on my father's side and third generation on my mother's. My Father in the work at one time also a brother.
Difference with me and a lot of others, including my two brothers, was that I had heard my mother & father talking when I was young & I knew when & where the *TRUTH* began. I knew it did not go back to the original apostles as was generally believed.
PS:
a bit of advice, beware of the person called "Nathan." Just let us say, he has some very strange ideas of a mix about "aliens" and *TRUTH* and *TRUTH* the going back to the waldenses/vaduois.
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Post by maryhig on May 1, 2016 13:04:57 GMT -5
Hi all, I hope this is in the proper section, please move it if not, Thanks! Let me begin by saying that I am a born and raised, currently professing, and baptized twenty-something year old guy in the western united states. A few years or so ago I got a wild hair when I was on wikipedia and I looked up the "Black stocking faith". I had heard that an old settler in America's history belonged to it and that it was what people called the truth back then. I was pleasantly amused as I read the article and it described meetings, their format, the workers, even how some had a problem with how the truth views divorce and remarriage. These were all things I had grown up with and was familiar with. Then I read about how this dude William Irvine started the truth back in the late 1800's...... uh what? I stopped reading there for some reason. I was talking with my father later and I said something about how I had found what the world thinks of our church on wikipedia. His response was something along the lines of "Yeah, just be careful with things you read on the internet, most of the people who post are lot of disgruntled people who left the truth and have something against it. There are even some who go so far as to say this way was started by some guy back in the 1800's, but I heard he was just some worker who got some crazy ideas and went off the deep end." This explanation made good sense to me at the time and the whole matter was put from my mind. Fast forward a few years to about three weeks ago.... I am sitting at a friends house on my laptop and for whatever reason I type in the name of the convention I normally go to on google. This board pops up. I am no stranger to internet forums and I thought, given the rather reclusive nature of the friends (always hearing don't distribute this and that), it seems strange that the friends would maintain a message board. I start reading.... I'm sure you all are well familiar with what happened next, I've read enough threads by people just like me who happen to stumble upon this site. The way I would describe my world being turned upside down is that if my life were a container of liquid that has had experiences and emotions sprinkled in it to build up into layers over the years... someone just jammed a mixer into it at high speed... I've never really questioned this way before, I've always been told to read my bible, that Jesus is the ultimate standard, and if we see anything even in this way that doesn't meet or measure to that standard that it is not true or correct and the way is being polluted by man's ideas. Being born in this way, I have always known that this way is the one true way. That it is the only church that has been continuous from christ until now. I have always known that people are not perfect, and it is to be expected from time to time that people screw up, and we should pray for people who are going through hardship. I have been pretty good about reading my bible and praying daily. I see myself to be a very spiritually serious person, and I do believe that we are held accountable by god. I try to hold my self to high level of accountability. Now that I look on "The truth" with more scrutiny I can definitely see faults, not to mention the bombshell that it's only been around from around 1897. I also see many good things. I can not fault the truth for how i've been raised. I have absolutely excellent parents who have done their absolute best by me and have raised me in a very stable and nurturing environment. As I've gotten older and moved from home I can see their faults as well, and have grown to accept that nobody is perfect, and they are still salt of the earth people who have given me more that I could have ever asked for. I was raised in what many would consider to be a very "healthy" area as far as the truth is concerned. I was never pressured to make any choices like professing or baptism. I have very few negative experiences with the workers and i've always chalked that up to them being human, we all know everyone makes mistakes. I have never had any of the negative experiences that many others who have posted have had. I do not feel like I was robbed of a childhood or friends, sure there were things we didn't do and I wasn't allowed to do, but I can see most of that as actually having a good impact on my life. Things like not having a TV growing up have forced me to learn certain skills and develop a work ethic that puts me above many of my peers when it comes to competition in the job market. (wow I come off sounding very arrogant there, I don't mean it that way, just trying to get my thoughts out) Over the past three weeks I have had time to settle down a bit. I have been completely silent to anybody about this which is pretty much the only reason I'm posting this here, I need to at least get this off of my chest. I'm left to wonder "Where does this leave me?" to be honest... I don't really know. I don't plan on making an exodus anytime soon, I don't really feel discouraged, but that sour taste of what feels like of betrayal is definitely there. I use the word feels because I don't feel like those around me have purposefully misled me. However, I see a huge amount of ignorance, and it really makes me wonder about the whole blind leading the blind thing.... I will definitely have a chat with some of workers.... I have felt one definite change in my heart that has been very comforting to me. I am now truly in pursuit of truth, not just someones interpretation of it. (I was taught this from my birth, and would surely have no problem giving it as advice, but it sure feels strange applying it to ME.) There is a very ingrained feeling that I have even now typing this that in researching and learning more of the origins of this way and learning even about other ways that I am somehow doing something sinful... I'm sure there are those who are ignorant/head-in-the-sand to the point that they would say something about man's words vs god and tell me that I will hurt my faith. The sad thing is that I can see that coming from certain immediate family members. My feeling is this: God has a truth. The truth needs no alibi. I will not find evidence contrary to truth, if I do, a much more careful look is needed to see if something is actually truth (scientific method if you will). I still have this feeling though... and looking at it from a logical perspective I am beginning to see the effects of 20 or so years of social conditioning. I have always been an open-minded person, and yet I have now unearthed a whole plethora of things that I would have never expected to find in myself. I guess I should begin to wrap this up. I apologize for this not being very organized at all, and possibly not making too much sense, but it is my reality at this point in time. I also apologize for any grammatical errors and any serious run-ons, I'm sure there's probably a few in here. In summary, I've had a major section of my life turned upside down. I'm not about to do anything rash, but I am going to be doing a lot reading and praying as never before. I know the truth will come out, and now I can truly say in prayer that I am thankful for truth. Thank you whoever you are for reading my thoughts if you got this far. I really appreciate your care even though I don't know you. Hello I guess I'm a bit of an outsider, as I've never met a worker and I've never been a part of the 2x2. But I do go to meetings in homes, and I believe that the way I'm following is the way that Jesus taught us to live. We have meetings that Edward Cooney started, as you may know, he started in the way at a similar time to William Irvine. He was excommunicated, but carried on taking meetings. My mum started attending meetings when she was young, and I've been brought up around around them in my life. They are a bit different to yours, but our beliefs are very similar. I've always been told about William Irvine, nothing has been kept from us. But what we have been told is that these men wanted to bring back the true teachings of Jesus, in the way that he taught us to live. And I believe that is so. I believe the truth has always been there. Jesus came and brought it to us and lived it out. Showing us the way. And it's been passed on from generation to generation. I believe that the group of men that started opened the meetings in the 1800's wanted to remove all the add ons that religions have built up, and bring the church back to basics. I can't comment on the friends or workers, but I believe that our meetings do just that. They follow Jesus as taught in the Bible. And I suppose that's what you have to look at, not when people said it began, but whether those you worship God with, worship in spirit and in truth. The friends from your church that I have spoken to here, I believe are Gods people. I believe God has people everywhere and they are those that just don't speak it but live it out also, showing the love of God in their lives. So I suppose the best way to look at it is this, can you see the spirit of God in those around you? Can you see him in their lives and are their teachings the same as those of Jesus? I can see God in those around me, his spirit is in the hearts of those in our meetings, and I see the spirit of Christ in their lives. I don't worry about William Irvine, or Edward Cooney. I worry about my heart being right before God, and that I'm living my life right before him and that I'm following Jesus in the right way. If I'm doing these things, then I'm following the truth and living a life that pleases God. And that's what counts. I love God deeply. And I put my trust in him. I don't believe that any certain denomination is the truth. But those who worship God in spirit and in truth, those who are doers of the word not just hearers, these are Gods true people. Who live the life that Jesus taught us to live. If you can see these things in those around you. Then they are following the right way. I know I'm not a part of your church, but I hope you don't mind me answering as someone who also comes from the same beginnings, so to speak. In the end, God knows all our hearts and he knows who are his. So don't worry, just love him and love all those around you with his love that is within your heart and leave all else in his hands. God bless Mary
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 14:33:34 GMT -5
Hi all, I hope this is in the proper section, please move it if not, Thanks! Let me begin by saying that I am a born and raised, currently professing, and baptized twenty-something year old guy in the western united states. A few years or so ago I got a wild hair when I was on wikipedia and I looked up the "Black stocking faith". I had heard that an old settler in America's history belonged to it and that it was what people called the truth back then. I was pleasantly amused as I read the article and it described meetings, their format, the workers, even how some had a problem with how the truth views divorce and remarriage. These were all things I had grown up with and was familiar with. Then I read about how this dude William Irvine started the truth back in the late 1800's...... uh what? I stopped reading there for some reason. I was talking with my father later and I said something about how I had found what the world thinks of our church on wikipedia. His response was something along the lines of "Yeah, just be careful with things you read on the internet, most of the people who post are lot of disgruntled people who left the truth and have something against it. There are even some who go so far as to say this way was started by some guy back in the 1800's, but I heard he was just some worker who got some crazy ideas and went off the deep end." This explanation made good sense to me at the time and the whole matter was put from my mind. Fast forward a few years to about three weeks ago.... I am sitting at a friends house on my laptop and for whatever reason I type in the name of the convention I normally go to on google. This board pops up. I am no stranger to internet forums and I thought, given the rather reclusive nature of the friends (always hearing don't distribute this and that), it seems strange that the friends would maintain a message board. I start reading.... I'm sure you all are well familiar with what happened next, I've read enough threads by people just like me who happen to stumble upon this site. The way I would describe my world being turned upside down is that if my life were a container of liquid that has had experiences and emotions sprinkled in it to build up into layers over the years... someone just jammed a mixer into it at high speed... I've never really questioned this way before, I've always been told to read my bible, that Jesus is the ultimate standard, and if we see anything even in this way that doesn't meet or measure to that standard that it is not true or correct and the way is being polluted by man's ideas. Being born in this way, I have always known that this way is the one true way. That it is the only church that has been continuous from christ until now. I have always known that people are not perfect, and it is to be expected from time to time that people screw up, and we should pray for people who are going through hardship. I have been pretty good about reading my bible and praying daily. I see myself to be a very spiritually serious person, and I do believe that we are held accountable by god. I try to hold my self to high level of accountability. Now that I look on "The truth" with more scrutiny I can definitely see faults, not to mention the bombshell that it's only been around from around 1897. I also see many good things. I can not fault the truth for how i've been raised. I have absolutely excellent parents who have done their absolute best by me and have raised me in a very stable and nurturing environment. As I've gotten older and moved from home I can see their faults as well, and have grown to accept that nobody is perfect, and they are still salt of the earth people who have given me more that I could have ever asked for. I was raised in what many would consider to be a very "healthy" area as far as the truth is concerned. I was never pressured to make any choices like professing or baptism. I have very few negative experiences with the workers and i've always chalked that up to them being human, we all know everyone makes mistakes. I have never had any of the negative experiences that many others who have posted have had. I do not feel like I was robbed of a childhood or friends, sure there were things we didn't do and I wasn't allowed to do, but I can see most of that as actually having a good impact on my life. Things like not having a TV growing up have forced me to learn certain skills and develop a work ethic that puts me above many of my peers when it comes to competition in the job market. (wow I come off sounding very arrogant there, I don't mean it that way, just trying to get my thoughts out) Over the past three weeks I have had time to settle down a bit. I have been completely silent to anybody about this which is pretty much the only reason I'm posting this here, I need to at least get this off of my chest. I'm left to wonder "Where does this leave me?" to be honest... I don't really know. I don't plan on making an exodus anytime soon, I don't really feel discouraged, but that sour taste of what feels like of betrayal is definitely there. I use the word feels because I don't feel like those around me have purposefully misled me. However, I see a huge amount of ignorance, and it really makes me wonder about the whole blind leading the blind thing.... I will definitely have a chat with some of workers.... I have felt one definite change in my heart that has been very comforting to me. I am now truly in pursuit of truth, not just someones interpretation of it. (I was taught this from my birth, and would surely have no problem giving it as advice, but it sure feels strange applying it to ME.) There is a very ingrained feeling that I have even now typing this that in researching and learning more of the origins of this way and learning even about other ways that I am somehow doing something sinful... I'm sure there are those who are ignorant/head-in-the-sand to the point that they would say something about man's words vs god and tell me that I will hurt my faith. The sad thing is that I can see that coming from certain immediate family members. My feeling is this: God has a truth. The truth needs no alibi. I will not find evidence contrary to truth, if I do, a much more careful look is needed to see if something is actually truth (scientific method if you will). I still have this feeling though... and looking at it from a logical perspective I am beginning to see the effects of 20 or so years of social conditioning. I have always been an open-minded person, and yet I have now unearthed a whole plethora of things that I would have never expected to find in myself. I guess I should begin to wrap this up. I apologize for this not being very organized at all, and possibly not making too much sense, but it is my reality at this point in time. I also apologize for any grammatical errors and any serious run-ons, I'm sure there's probably a few in here. In summary, I've had a major section of my life turned upside down. I'm not about to do anything rash, but I am going to be doing a lot reading and praying as never before. I know the truth will come out, and now I can truly say in prayer that I am thankful for truth. Thank you whoever you are for reading my thoughts if you got this far. I really appreciate your care even though I don't know you. Hello I guess I'm a bit of an outsider, as I've never met a worker and I've never been a part of the 2x2. But I do go to meetings in homes, and I believe that the way I'm following is the way that Jesus taught us to live. We have meetings that Edward Cooney started, as you may know, he started in the way at a similar time to William Irvine. He was excommunicated, but carried on taking meetings. My mum started attending meetings when she was young, and I've been brought up around around them in my life. They are a bit different to yours, but our beliefs are very similar. I've always been told about William Irvine, nothing has been kept from us. But what we have been told is that these men wanted to bring back the true teachings of Jesus, in the way that he taught us to live. And I believe that is so. I believe the truth has always been there. Jesus came and brought it to us and lived it out. Showing us the way. And it's been passed on from generation to generation. I believe that the group of men that started opened the meetings in the 1800's wanted to remove all the add ons that religions have built up, and bring the church back to basics. I can't comment on the friends or workers, but I believe that our meetings do just that. They follow Jesus as taught in the Bible. And I suppose that's what you have to look at, not when people said it began, but whether those you worship God with, worship in spirit and in truth. The friends from your church that I have spoken to here, I believe are Gods people. I believe God has people everywhere and they are those that just don't speak it but live it out also, showing the love of God in their lives. So I suppose the best way to look at it is this, can you see the spirit of God in those around you? Can you see him in their lives and are their teachings the same as those of Jesus? I can see God in those around me, his spirit is in the hearts of those in our meetings, and I see the spirit of Christ in their lives. I don't worry about William Irvine, or Edward Cooney. I worry about my heart being right before God, and that I'm living my life right before him and that I'm following Jesus in the right way. If I'm doing these things, then I'm following the truth and living a life that pleases God. And that's what counts. I love God deeply. And I put my trust in him. I don't believe that any certain denomination is the truth. But those who worship God in spirit and in truth, those who are doers of the word not just hearers, these are Gods true people. Who live the life that Jesus taught us to live. If you can see these things in those around you. Then they are following the right way. I know I'm not a part of your church, but I hope you don't mind me answering as someone who also comes from the same beginnings, so to speak. In the end, God knows all our hearts and he knows who are his. So don't worry, just love him and love all those around you with his love that is within your heart and leave all else in his hands. God bless Mary Mary I appreciated your response to entropy! God's Truth is not complicated,man makes it complicated.He reveals it unto babes Mary who in your church preaches the Gospel and how do they go about it ? I simply see the 2x2's as a fellowship and not The Way,Truth or Life,only Jesus is the Truth,Way and Life and we can be part of it by obeying Him.And I believe we are a part of the body of Christ with Christians that serve Him in Spirit and in Truth all over the world and that those are not related to a specific group.As yourself I don't believe in the denominational churches but the Truth as it is in the Bible.I found it very interesting to learn about Edward,Cooney.I asked the sister worker that visited us this weekend if she new were we as a group started,she didn't which wasn't a surprise to me. I told her that we don't have to be ashamed of our earthly beginnings since those men wanted to get back to the simplicity according to the Bible. Knowing were we came from also helps us to understand why we do certain things as in the way we dress and wear our hair in buns and even were the black stocking saga came from. Obviously Spiritually we that serve God in Spirit and in Truth know our beginning started with God.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 15:38:23 GMT -5
I believe that as the end of time is drawing nearer, God is revealing many things to us that we need to know. God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.He speaks to us in that still small voice, and through us. Take heed but be on your guard, as the enemy of our souls is very clever also, so try to be absolutely convinced as to which voice we are listening to.That is our challenge.
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Post by fixit on May 1, 2016 16:50:49 GMT -5
I asked the sister worker that visited us this weekend if she new were we as a group started,she didn't which wasn't a supersize to me. Supersize, or surprise? People further up the hierarchy know when the group started, and they're making it very difficult for their staff by keeping it from them. I agree that Nathan B adds a lot of confusion. The following account was written by a professing man who was there when the 2x2 church started around him. It's the best explanation I've seen so far: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.php
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 17:04:31 GMT -5
I asked the sister worker that visited us this weekend if she new were we as a group started,she didn't which wasn't a supersize to me. Supersize, or surprise? People further up the hierarchy know when the group started, and they're making it very difficult for their staff by keeping it from them. I agree that Nathan B adds a lot of confusion. The following account was written by a professing man who was there when the 2x2 church started around him. It's the best explanation I've seen so far: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.phpHi fixit, I had a good laugh, thanks for the correction and info will read it when I get some time!
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Post by pa on May 1, 2016 17:53:03 GMT -5
Whatever others or me say, know the truth is in Jesus. Study the Bible and even the origins of the Old KJV bible and other translations of the Bible. You will find the Truth as it is in Jesus. When there is ambiguity and contradictions with what others tell you of the scripture, then know that the message is tainted with man's thoughts and interpretations. Study and listen to what the Truth speaks to you in your heart and keep it in your heart. Some voices will try to still you just like Bartimaeus(not inferring that you are blind, I only used him as an example) on the wayside, however he did not listen and kept out calling to Truth. He received his sight and so much more. Strangely those voices thought they were close to the Truth. Don't be to surprised when those close to you don't get it when something is truly revealed to you, you may even face anger and many different reactions, just keep a right spirit and love them for they don't know what they do.
You have the right approach ,just take it a step at a time with much prayer. Go well.....
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 18:31:04 GMT -5
A couple of point to remember: 1) Religion is not history. Religion is not science. Do not ever confuse those things. If you have a good education in history and science then many of the hucksters who peddle dumb-dumb versions of spirituality will be immediately obvious to you. Take for example the 2x2 claim that they are the only group with apostolic succession - clearly false if you know anything about the history of the middle ages. Tiny amount of literate people. The only places teaching literacy were the monasteries. Very few scrolls of the Scriptures in existence since so expensive to make. Monasteries built in fortified encampments to be safe from the extreme level of lawlessness. You get the picture - It's quite remarkable that even the Roman Catholic Church survived the fall of the Roman Empire, let alone some group like the 2x2s surviving.
2) If you want to learn about pretty much any topic, you go to a recognized center of learning to learn from widely respected experts. So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people like the 2x2 ministers? Seems pretty stupid to me. I'd start by finding someone who had been trained formally from a good institution in theology. Guess what, that's what a priest is. If you see a church which doesn't have a minister/priest trained from a highly credible institution, leave immediately. You can come back, but only after you've had a proper education in Christianity from someone who has been trained. Otherwise it's just blind leading the blind.
3) The Bible is not a historical document. It is a mythical document. It is a guidebook of sorts about spirituality. However, it is extremely difficult to understand and very easy to get confused. In order to understand the Bible, you first need to learn How To read the Bible. Guess what, that's what priest are for - to help you. A proper church even has a system for how to read the Bible, a system which takes 3 years to complete reading the Bible. Sounds like a set of university courses doesn't it? Doesn't that sound a lot more thorough than the 2x2 method?
4) If you find yourself in a church which claims that only you members of that church are 'saved' or whatever else they call it, leave immediately. Exclusivity is the definition of a cult.
5) If you find yourself in a church which talk about you needing to be obedient to the ministers or priests, leave immediately. That's the mark of a cult. In a proper church the parish members (The Friends in 2x2 lingo) should have a lot of control over the ministers - the ability to fire them even. Ministers/priests are spiritual advisors - and NOTHING MORE. They do not have some sort of special knowledge about marital relations, garden planting times, dispute resolutions, career choices, parenting techniques, clothing choices, etc. Giving credence to a minister/priest about matter other than spiritual advice is tantamount to complete foolishness.
6) If you find yourself in a church which doesn't have a strong appreciation for the high culture and history of Western Civilization, leave immediately. Christianity and Western Civilization go hand-in-glove. If you strip one from the other, you are left with rubbish.
7) In all things in life, don't try to re-invent the wheel. Many people smarter than you and I have walked these roads before us. Never think that somehow you and your small group of people have got a monopoly on knowledge (that's what the 2x2s believe), since the probability of that being true is effectively zero. Seek out smart educated people and ask questions. You will find the answers.
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Post by breakfree on May 1, 2016 18:54:17 GMT -5
A couple of point to remember: 1) Religion is not history. Religion is not science. Do not ever confuse those things. If you have a good education in history and science then many of the hucksters who peddle dumb-dumb versions of spirituality will be immediately obvious to you. Take for example the 2x2 claim that they are the only group with apostolic succession - clearly false if you know anything about the history of the middle ages. Tiny amount of literate people. The only places teaching literacy were the monasteries. Very few scrolls of the Scriptures in existence since so expensive to make. Monasteries built in fortified encampments to be safe from the extreme level of lawlessness. You get the picture - It's quite remarkable that even the Roman Catholic Church survived the fall of the Roman Empire, let alone some group like the 2x2s surviving. 2) If you want to learn about pretty much any topic, you go to a recognized center of learning to learn from widely respected experts. So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people like the 2x2 ministers? Seems pretty stupid to me. I'd start by finding someone who had been trained formally from a good institution in theology. Guess what, that's what a priest is. If you see a church which doesn't have a minister/priest trained from a highly credible institution, leave immediately. You can come back, but only after you've had a proper education in Christianity from someone who has been trained. Otherwise it's just blind leading the blind. 3) The Bible is not a historical document. It is a mythical document. It is a guidebook of sorts about spirituality. However, it is extremely difficult to understand and very easy to get confused. In order to understand the Bible, you first need to learn How To read the Bible. Guess what, that's what priest are for - to help you. A proper church even has a system for how to read the Bible, a system which takes 3 years to complete reading the Bible. Sounds like a set of university courses doesn't it? Doesn't that sound a lot more thorough than the 2x2 method? 4) If you find yourself in a church which claims that only you members of that church are 'saved' or whatever else they call it, leave immediately. Exclusivity is the definition of a cult. 5) If you find yourself in a church which talk about you needing to be obedient to the ministers or priests, leave immediately. That's the mark of a cult. In a proper church the parish members (The Friends in 2x2 lingo) should have a lot of control over the ministers - the ability to fire them even. Ministers/priests are spiritual advisors - and NOTHING MORE. They do not have some sort of special knowledge about marital relations, garden planting times, dispute resolutions, career choices, parenting techniques, clothing choices, etc. Giving credence to a minister/priest about matter other than spiritual advice is tantamount to complete foolishness. 6) If you find yourself in a church which doesn't have a strong appreciation for the high culture and history of Western Civilization, leave immediately. Christianity and Western Civilization go hand-in-glove. If you strip one from the other, you are left with rubbish. 7) In all things in life, don't try to re-invent the wheel. Many people smarter than you and I have walked these roads before us. Never think that somehow you and your small group of people have got a monopoly on knowledge (that's what the 2x2s believe), since the probability of that being true is effectively zero. Seek out smart educated people and ask questions. You will find the answers. You nailed it,simpleton!
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Post by maryhig on May 2, 2016 1:37:56 GMT -5
A couple of point to remember: 1) Religion is not history. Religion is not science. Do not ever confuse those things. If you have a good education in history and science then many of the hucksters who peddle dumb-dumb versions of spirituality will be immediately obvious to you. Take for example the 2x2 claim that they are the only group with apostolic succession - clearly false if you know anything about the history of the middle ages. Tiny amount of literate people. The only places teaching literacy were the monasteries. Very few scrolls of the Scriptures in existence since so expensive to make. Monasteries built in fortified encampments to be safe from the extreme level of lawlessness. You get the picture - It's quite remarkable that even the Roman Catholic Church survived the fall of the Roman Empire, let alone some group like the 2x2s surviving. 2) If you want to learn about pretty much any topic, you go to a recognized center of learning to learn from widely respected experts. So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people like the 2x2 ministers? Seems pretty stupid to me. I'd start by finding someone who had been trained formally from a good institution in theology. Guess what, that's what a priest is. If you see a church which doesn't have a minister/priest trained from a highly credible institution, leave immediately. You can come back, but only after you've had a proper education in Christianity from someone who has been trained. Otherwise it's just blind leading the blind. 3) The Bible is not a historical document. It is a mythical document. It is a guidebook of sorts about spirituality. However, it is extremely difficult to understand and very easy to get confused. In order to understand the Bible, you first need to learn How To read the Bible. Guess what, that's what priest are for - to help you. A proper church even has a system for how to read the Bible, a system which takes 3 years to complete reading the Bible. Sounds like a set of university courses doesn't it? Doesn't that sound a lot more thorough than the 2x2 method? 4) If you find yourself in a church which claims that only you members of that church are 'saved' or whatever else they call it, leave immediately. Exclusivity is the definition of a cult. 5) If you find yourself in a church which talk about you needing to be obedient to the ministers or priests, leave immediately. That's the mark of a cult. In a proper church the parish members (The Friends in 2x2 lingo) should have a lot of control over the ministers - the ability to fire them even. Ministers/priests are spiritual advisors - and NOTHING MORE. They do not have some sort of special knowledge about marital relations, garden planting times, dispute resolutions, career choices, parenting techniques, clothing choices, etc. Giving credence to a minister/priest about matter other than spiritual advice is tantamount to complete foolishness. 6) If you find yourself in a church which doesn't have a strong appreciation for the high culture and history of Western Civilization, leave immediately. Christianity and Western Civilization go hand-in-glove. If you strip one from the other, you are left with rubbish. 7) In all things in life, don't try to re-invent the wheel. Many people smarter than you and I have walked these roads before us. Never think that somehow you and your small group of people have got a monopoly on knowledge (that's what the 2x2s believe), since the probability of that being true is effectively zero. Seek out smart educated people and ask questions. You will find the answers. Quote: So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people..... What about the apostles? They were perceived as unlearned Acts 4 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. It's not going to Bible college, or having a formal education, it's walking with Jesus and being taught by the holy spirit. Jesus said that he will send the comforter who will teach you all things. If you have the spirit of God within you, then you have the best teacher in the world. Yes, Gods people do bring Gods word to us, but we don't need smart educated people to get to know God. We need a soft heart and we need to love God with all our heart and follow Jesus. God won't be far from us if we truly love him, and we don't need to be trained in Bible college to love God.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 2, 2016 2:41:53 GMT -5
A couple of point to remember: 1) Religion is not history. Religion is not science. Do not ever confuse those things. If you have a good education in history and science then many of the hucksters who peddle dumb-dumb versions of spirituality will be immediately obvious to you. Take for example the 2x2 claim that they are the only group with apostolic succession - clearly false if you know anything about the history of the middle ages. Tiny amount of literate people. The only places teaching literacy were the monasteries. Very few scrolls of the Scriptures in existence since so expensive to make. Monasteries built in fortified encampments to be safe from the extreme level of lawlessness. You get the picture - It's quite remarkable that even the Roman Catholic Church survived the fall of the Roman Empire, let alone some group like the 2x2s surviving. 2) If you want to learn about pretty much any topic, you go to a recognized center of learning to learn from widely respected experts. So if you want to learn about Christianity why would you go to untrained uneducated people like the 2x2 ministers? Seems pretty stupid to me. I'd start by finding someone who had been trained formally from a good institution in theology. Guess what, that's what a priest is. If you see a church which doesn't have a minister/priest trained from a highly credible institution, leave immediately. You can come back, but only after you've had a proper education in Christianity from someone who has been trained. Otherwise it's just blind leading the blind. 3) The Bible is not a historical document. It is a mythical document. It is a guidebook of sorts about spirituality. However, it is extremely difficult to understand and very easy to get confused. In order to understand the Bible, you first need to learn How To read the Bible. Guess what, that's what priest are for - to help you. A proper church even has a system for how to read the Bible, a system which takes 3 years to complete reading the Bible. Sounds like a set of university courses doesn't it? Doesn't that sound a lot more thorough than the 2x2 method? 4) If you find yourself in a church which claims that only you members of that church are 'saved' or whatever else they call it, leave immediately. Exclusivity is the definition of a cult. 5) If you find yourself in a church which talk about you needing to be obedient to the ministers or priests, leave immediately. That's the mark of a cult. In a proper church the parish members (The Friends in 2x2 lingo) should have a lot of control over the ministers - the ability to fire them even. Ministers/priests are spiritual advisors - and NOTHING MORE. They do not have some sort of special knowledge about marital relations, garden planting times, dispute resolutions, career choices, parenting techniques, clothing choices, etc. Giving credence to a minister/priest about matter other than spiritual advice is tantamount to complete foolishness. 6) If you find yourself in a church which doesn't have a strong appreciation for the high culture and history of Western Civilization, leave immediately. Christianity and Western Civilization go hand-in-glove. If you strip one from the other, you are left with rubbish. 7) In all things in life, don't try to re-invent the wheel. Many people smarter than you and I have walked these roads before us. Never think that somehow you and your small group of people have got a monopoly on knowledge (that's what the 2x2s believe), since the probability of that being true is effectively zero. Seek out smart educated people and ask questions. You will find the answers. In your first paragraph you mentioned the RCC. Have you ever considered that there was a some kind of power transfer between the Empire and the Church and that the Empire lives on today in the guise of the Church?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 2, 2016 2:52:23 GMT -5
It appears that you are back again touting going to priests again. Yet you also say "in a proper church the parish members should have a lot of control over the ministers - the ability to fire them even."
Do you think the Catholic or even the Anglican church are going to allow their parish members to fire their priests?
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 8:02:25 GMT -5
It appears that you are back again touting going to priests again. Yet you also say "in a proper church the parish members should have a lot of control over the ministers - the ability to fire them even."
Do you think the Catholic or even the Anglican church are going to allow their parish members to fire their priests?
Yes Anglican priests can be fired by the parish members. RCC priests are much harder to fire by the parish members, but it is possible. The last thing the Church wants is for members to leave, so they are pretty responsive to parish demands.
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Post by learning on May 2, 2016 10:02:46 GMT -5
Hi all, I hope this is in the proper section, please move it if not, Thanks! Let me begin by saying that I am a born and raised, currently professing, and baptized twenty-something year old guy in the western united states. A few years or so ago I got a wild hair when I was on wikipedia and I looked up the "Black stocking faith". I had heard that an old settler in America's history belonged to it and that it was what people called the truth back then. I was pleasantly amused as I read the article and it described meetings, their format, the workers, even how some had a problem with how the truth views divorce and remarriage. These were all things I had grown up with and was familiar with. Then I read about how this dude William Irvine started the truth back in the late 1800's...... uh what? I stopped reading there for some reason. I was talking with my father later and I said something about how I had found what the world thinks of our church on wikipedia. His response was something along the lines of "Yeah, just be careful with things you read on the internet, most of the people who post are lot of disgruntled people who left the truth and have something against it. There are even some who go so far as to say this way was started by some guy back in the 1800's, but I heard he was just some worker who got some crazy ideas and went off the deep end." This explanation made good sense to me at the time and the whole matter was put from my mind. Fast forward a few years to about three weeks ago.... I am sitting at a friends house on my laptop and for whatever reason I type in the name of the convention I normally go to on google. This board pops up. I am no stranger to internet forums and I thought, given the rather reclusive nature of the friends (always hearing don't distribute this and that), it seems strange that the friends would maintain a message board. I start reading.... I'm sure you all are well familiar with what happened next, I've read enough threads by people just like me who happen to stumble upon this site. The way I would describe my world being turned upside down is that if my life were a container of liquid that has had experiences and emotions sprinkled in it to build up into layers over the years... someone just jammed a mixer into it at high speed... I've never really questioned this way before, I've always been told to read my bible, that Jesus is the ultimate standard, and if we see anything even in this way that doesn't meet or measure to that standard that it is not true or correct and the way is being polluted by man's ideas. Being born in this way, I have always known that this way is the one true way. That it is the only church that has been continuous from christ until now. I have always known that people are not perfect, and it is to be expected from time to time that people screw up, and we should pray for people who are going through hardship. I have been pretty good about reading my bible and praying daily. I see myself to be a very spiritually serious person, and I do believe that we are held accountable by god. I try to hold my self to high level of accountability. Now that I look on "The truth" with more scrutiny I can definitely see faults, not to mention the bombshell that it's only been around from around 1897. I also see many good things. I can not fault the truth for how i've been raised. I have absolutely excellent parents who have done their absolute best by me and have raised me in a very stable and nurturing environment. As I've gotten older and moved from home I can see their faults as well, and have grown to accept that nobody is perfect, and they are still salt of the earth people who have given me more that I could have ever asked for. I was raised in what many would consider to be a very "healthy" area as far as the truth is concerned. I was never pressured to make any choices like professing or baptism. I have very few negative experiences with the workers and i've always chalked that up to them being human, we all know everyone makes mistakes. I have never had any of the negative experiences that many others who have posted have had. I do not feel like I was robbed of a childhood or friends, sure there were things we didn't do and I wasn't allowed to do, but I can see most of that as actually having a good impact on my life. Things like not having a TV growing up have forced me to learn certain skills and develop a work ethic that puts me above many of my peers when it comes to competition in the job market. (wow I come off sounding very arrogant there, I don't mean it that way, just trying to get my thoughts out) Over the past three weeks I have had time to settle down a bit. I have been completely silent to anybody about this which is pretty much the only reason I'm posting this here, I need to at least get this off of my chest. I'm left to wonder "Where does this leave me?" to be honest... I don't really know. I don't plan on making an exodus anytime soon, I don't really feel discouraged, but that sour taste of what feels like of betrayal is definitely there. I use the word feels because I don't feel like those around me have purposefully misled me. However, I see a huge amount of ignorance, and it really makes me wonder about the whole blind leading the blind thing.... I will definitely have a chat with some of workers.... I have felt one definite change in my heart that has been very comforting to me. I am now truly in pursuit of truth, not just someones interpretation of it. (I was taught this from my birth, and would surely have no problem giving it as advice, but it sure feels strange applying it to ME.) There is a very ingrained feeling that I have even now typing this that in researching and learning more of the origins of this way and learning even about other ways that I am somehow doing something sinful... I'm sure there are those who are ignorant/head-in-the-sand to the point that they would say something about man's words vs god and tell me that I will hurt my faith. The sad thing is that I can see that coming from certain immediate family members. My feeling is this: God has a truth. The truth needs no alibi. I will not find evidence contrary to truth, if I do, a much more careful look is needed to see if something is actually truth (scientific method if you will). I still have this feeling though... and looking at it from a logical perspective I am beginning to see the effects of 20 or so years of social conditioning. I have always been an open-minded person, and yet I have now unearthed a whole plethora of things that I would have never expected to find in myself. I guess I should begin to wrap this up. I apologize for this not being very organized at all, and possibly not making too much sense, but it is my reality at this point in time. I also apologize for any grammatical errors and any serious run-ons, I'm sure there's probably a few in here. In summary, I've had a major section of my life turned upside down. I'm not about to do anything rash, but I am going to be doing a lot reading and praying as never before. I know the truth will come out, and now I can truly say in prayer that I am thankful for truth. Thank you whoever you are for reading my thoughts if you got this far. I really appreciate your care even though I don't know you. Your post takes me right back to a time in my experience maybe three years ago when I first sat up, realized there were some major discrepancies and had a similar feeling of having my very foundation shaken. If I could offer some unsolicited advice... Don't overreact or act quickly. And conversely, don't do nothing. Find someone in the fellowship that you trust that has an open mind and talk to with them about your concerns. This is a very tumultuous experience you're about to take on, and it helps to have people to talk to that can moderate your thoughts and actions. I talked to some workers about my concerns and they acknowledged there are discrepancies but showed an unwillingness to take any action. So you'll have to find a balance in your life - are there enough good and positive things in the fellowship to balance out the 'negatives' such that you can continue on in fellowship with the 2x2 people? And remember above all - don't confuse your questions relating to this fellowship with your faith in Christ. They are two separate things. If I can do anything to help please shoot me a PM.
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Post by rational on May 2, 2016 15:49:55 GMT -5
4) If you find yourself in a church which claims that only you members of that church are 'saved' or whatever else they call it, leave immediately. Exclusivity is the definition of a cult. Is the same advice valid if you find yourself in a religion that claims only followers will gain salvation? Are you saying that the RCC should be considered as a cult and avoided because the Church's doctrine states: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.The religion and the doctrine of the denomination both point to exclusivity.
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Post by fixit on May 2, 2016 15:56:22 GMT -5
4) If you find yourself in a church which claims that only you members of that church are 'saved' or whatever else they call it, leave immediately. Exclusivity is the definition of a cult. Is the same advice valid if you find yourself in a religion that claims only followers will gain salvation? Are you saying that the RCC should be considered as a cult and avoided because the Church's doctrine states: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.The religion and the doctrine of the denomination both point to exclusivity. The following points to exclusivity as well: Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
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Post by Jason Storebo on May 2, 2016 16:57:51 GMT -5
Myself, I have absolutely no regrets over having been raised in the fellowship. Whether the group is a cult, or not, is of little concern to me. Mom and Dad were the most wonderful of people. I consider it a great privilege to have been born to them. Growing up, I was completely unaware of any dark side to the church. It all seemed like a nice family atmosphere with the meetings and get-togethers. I was never molested by any pervert brother workers...never heard of such a thing back in the fifties and sixties. No complaints about any of the friends either. I married a 'fessing girl. She divorced me after a few years, but I never held the church responsible in any way. I never did profess, and Mom & Dad never (unlike many other professing parents) put any pressure on me to profess; so I never did. I believe that some folks do very well in the 2x2 faith.
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Post by Jason Storebo on May 2, 2016 17:22:43 GMT -5
I would describe my parents as being soft-core. Mom always said that amongst those with honest hearts, through out the world, if but they had only been exposed to the truth, that they too might be savable; this category, of course, included a sizable number of her dearest family members who just were not understanding things. Dad's father, an old man from Norway, had taken a stand once, back in North Dakota, but never participated actively afterward. Dad said he would always want to be reunited with his father in the here-after wherever that might be.
We celebrated all of the holidays fully; I actually was not aware that some of the other professing families were up-tight about these.
The bugaboo of TV? I watched at the homes of neighborhood friends, and at the homes of non-professing relatives. They (my parents) never seemed to have a problem with it.
Music? Light classical records were absolutely just fine, and so was some of the light popular piano music, that my Mom loved to play on the family piano, when she wasn't playing out of Hymns Old and New. Oh yes, and John Phillip Souza marches were enjoyed, and some traditional folk music. Rock'n'roll, and pop music, which while verboten in our home, was always played over the school bus radios.
Back to the TV situation. I was allowed to purchase a small portable black & white TV around my seventeenth birthday. Even Dad would watch sometimes. Mom did not officially approve but she mainly asked that it be kept out of anywhere but my quarters.
I went through the sixties listening to the music of that day. Mom didn't officially approve...but I was allowed to have records by some of the bands of that era. She would listen to the records and tell me which songs she liked and which she didn't like, and patiently, and I believe with a bit of real interest as well. She said she always liked, As Tears Go By, by non-other than the Rolling Stones, and she liked a number of the Beatle's ballads . How many professing moms could recognize by sight the likes of each of The Beatles, and could readily identify a picture of Jim Morrison? Do I think Mom is embarrassed by my revealing this? Nah, I think she is doing just fine with it.
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Post by entropy on May 2, 2016 22:27:38 GMT -5
I guess I should follow up to this post. In truth I never expected it to get as much attention as it did. Thank you to those who have weighed in, whatever your opinions/thoughts may be. Thanks also to those who have reached out to me in PM's I have appreciated your thoughts and encouragement. As I stated in my first post, I am not about to make an exodus. It seems like a long time ago that I made that post when in reality it has only been a couple days, since then I have had time to discuss the matter with several of you, and it has really helped me. I guess the main reason I made the post was to get my bottled up feelings out in the open, I did, was able to discuss them, and feel like I am much better for it. Even just writing out my thoughts helped me work out quite a bit what was bugging me also. I can't say that I will likely be incredibly active on this board, but I'll probably pop in every now and again and see whats going on.
Thank you all again for your support and sincerity, I've appreciated it a lot. I don't see too much left for me to gain now from posting, I think now my energy needs to be focused elsewhere (reading, praying, etc.), This has been made very real to me the past few days, I just wanted to sort of extend my thanks to you all here though. Definitely a unique group of people.
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Post by alfaromeo on May 3, 2016 20:02:26 GMT -5
Hey Entropy,
I just sent you a pm. I'm another guy in early 20's who is Born and raised, and extremely confused. I found this site 5 years ago, posted once, then didn't log on for 5 years. Hope all works out well. Sounds like you will be able to conceptualize and categorize ideas accordingly with your values.
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truevine
New Member
Looking for answers....
Posts: 31
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Post by truevine on May 3, 2016 20:24:14 GMT -5
3) The Bible is not a historical document. It is a mythical document. It is a guidebook of sorts about spirituality. I'm not sure how one could fully believe that and believe in Jesus. Do you not believe those accounts of his life are true?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 21:40:47 GMT -5
3) The Bible is not a historical document. It is a mythical document. It is a guidebook of sorts about spirituality. I'm not sure how one could fully believe that and believe in Jesus. Do you not believe those accounts of his life are true? Read some of Bart Erhman's books for more info about Jesus. The OT is full of lies. Many of the supposed events in the OT not only don't have any archeological evidence for them, there is actually contra-evidence. The Exodus story is notorious for being an example of this.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 3, 2016 22:47:14 GMT -5
I wonder that you're so ready to believe the Bible is "full of lies". Have you considered that Erhman's books might be full of lies?
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Post by breakingfree on May 3, 2016 22:48:47 GMT -5
Hi all, I hope this is in the proper section, please move it if not, Thanks! Let me begin by saying that I am a born and raised, currently professing, and baptized twenty-something year old guy in the western united states. A few years or so ago I got a wild hair when I was on wikipedia and I looked up the "Black stocking faith". I had heard that an old settler in America's history belonged to it and that it was what people called the truth back then. I was pleasantly amused as I read the article and it described meetings, their format, the workers, even how some had a problem with how the truth views divorce and remarriage. These were all things I had grown up with and was familiar with. Then I read about how this dude William Irvine started the truth back in the late 1800's...... uh what? I stopped reading there for some reason. I was talking with my father later and I said something about how I had found what the world thinks of our church on wikipedia. His response was something along the lines of "Yeah, just be careful with things you read on the internet, most of the people who post are lot of disgruntled people who left the truth and have something against it. There are even some who go so far as to say this way was started by some guy back in the 1800's, but I heard he was just some worker who got some crazy ideas and went off the deep end." This explanation made good sense to me at the time and the whole matter was put from my mind. Fast forward a few years to about three weeks ago.... I am sitting at a friends house on my laptop and for whatever reason I type in the name of the convention I normally go to on google. This board pops up. I am no stranger to internet forums and I thought, given the rather reclusive nature of the friends (always hearing don't distribute this and that), it seems strange that the friends would maintain a message board. I start reading.... I'm sure you all are well familiar with what happened next, I've read enough threads by people just like me who happen to stumble upon this site. The way I would describe my world being turned upside down is that if my life were a container of liquid that has had experiences and emotions sprinkled in it to build up into layers over the years... someone just jammed a mixer into it at high speed... I've never really questioned this way before, I've always been told to read my bible, that Jesus is the ultimate standard, and if we see anything even in this way that doesn't meet or measure to that standard that it is not true or correct and the way is being polluted by man's ideas. Being born in this way, I have always known that this way is the one true way. That it is the only church that has been continuous from christ until now. I have always known that people are not perfect, and it is to be expected from time to time that people screw up, and we should pray for people who are going through hardship. I have been pretty good about reading my bible and praying daily. I see myself to be a very spiritually serious person, and I do believe that we are held accountable by god. I try to hold my self to high level of accountability. Now that I look on "The truth" with more scrutiny I can definitely see faults, not to mention the bombshell that it's only been around from around 1897. I also see many good things. I can not fault the truth for how i've been raised. I have absolutely excellent parents who have done their absolute best by me and have raised me in a very stable and nurturing environment. As I've gotten older and moved from home I can see their faults as well, and have grown to accept that nobody is perfect, and they are still salt of the earth people who have given me more that I could have ever asked for. I was raised in what many would consider to be a very "healthy" area as far as the truth is concerned. I was never pressured to make any choices like professing or baptism. I have very few negative experiences with the workers and i've always chalked that up to them being human, we all know everyone makes mistakes. I have never had any of the negative experiences that many others who have posted have had. I do not feel like I was robbed of a childhood or friends, sure there were things we didn't do and I wasn't allowed to do, but I can see most of that as actually having a good impact on my life. Things like not having a TV growing up have forced me to learn certain skills and develop a work ethic that puts me above many of my peers when it comes to competition in the job market. (wow I come off sounding very arrogant there, I don't mean it that way, just trying to get my thoughts out) Over the past three weeks I have had time to settle down a bit. I have been completely silent to anybody about this which is pretty much the only reason I'm posting this here, I need to at least get this off of my chest. I'm left to wonder "Where does this leave me?" to be honest... I don't really know. I don't plan on making an exodus anytime soon, I don't really feel discouraged, but that sour taste of what feels like of betrayal is definitely there. I use the word feels because I don't feel like those around me have purposefully misled me. However, I see a huge amount of ignorance, and it really makes me wonder about the whole blind leading the blind thing.... I will definitely have a chat with some of workers.... I have felt one definite change in my heart that has been very comforting to me. I am now truly in pursuit of truth, not just someones interpretation of it. (I was taught this from my birth, and would surely have no problem giving it as advice, but it sure feels strange applying it to ME.) There is a very ingrained feeling that I have even now typing this that in researching and learning more of the origins of this way and learning even about other ways that I am somehow doing something sinful... I'm sure there are those who are ignorant/head-in-the-sand to the point that they would say something about man's words vs god and tell me that I will hurt my faith. The sad thing is that I can see that coming from certain immediate family members. My feeling is this: God has a truth. The truth needs no alibi. I will not find evidence contrary to truth, if I do, a much more careful look is needed to see if something is actually truth (scientific method if you will). I still have this feeling though... and looking at it from a logical perspective I am beginning to see the effects of 20 or so years of social conditioning. I have always been an open-minded person, and yet I have now unearthed a whole plethora of things that I would have never expected to find in myself. I guess I should begin to wrap this up. I apologize for this not being very organized at all, and possibly not making too much sense, but it is my reality at this point in time. I also apologize for any grammatical errors and any serious run-ons, I'm sure there's probably a few in here. In summary, I've had a major section of my life turned upside down. I'm not about to do anything rash, but I am going to be doing a lot reading and praying as never before. I know the truth will come out, and now I can truly say in prayer that I am thankful for truth. Thank you whoever you are for reading my thoughts if you got this far. I really appreciate your care even though I don't know you. Hi Entropy, Truth invites scrutiny. I'll never forget how I felt when I Googled some phrases and terms only we inside the "truth" use. That's when I came upon www.tellingthetruth.info I read for weeks about the history of the workers and William Irvine. I was so blown away by how I had been deceived....and for so long! I then did my own independent research on Irvine just to confirm that what I was reading was true because when I showed my husband he immediately declared it was "all lies invented by offended people who only want to deceive and cause others to lose out!" Well, I confirmed that what I had read was true. This lead me to start looking deeper into Christianity. I quickly learned that I knew NOTHING about TRUE HISTORICAL Christianity. I also learned that much I had been told about Christianity by workers and friends just wasn't true. So, although it seems you aren't looking for advice, may I offer some? Study the words of Jesus. Consider the profundity of His "I AM" statements...all 8 of them. Why would Jesus make these claims? If you are really wanting to learn, go to a local Bible Church and ask to ask questions. The pastor/teachers in healthy churches love to answer questions because truth invites scrutiny. May you come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
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