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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 10:42:53 GMT -5
Should a pervert be commended for doing good things for the Kingdom? Doesn't that alone take away any and all good things this person might have done?
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Post by faune on Feb 10, 2016 11:03:04 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Feb 10, 2016 11:39:41 GMT -5
There are a number of biblical examples to support this type of behavior. David was an adulterer and a murderer and it was recorded that god called David “a man after His heart”. Not sure that this reflects well on god's choice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 11:47:11 GMT -5
Should a pervert be commended for doing good things for the Kingdom? Doesn't that alone take away any and all good things this person might have done? I don't know...Judas would be a good example to what happens to a servant that goes astray though....
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Post by faune on Feb 10, 2016 11:58:52 GMT -5
Should a pervert be commended for doing good things for the Kingdom? Doesn't that alone take away any and all good things this person might have done? I don't know...Judas would be a good example to what happens to a servant that goes astray though.... Wally ~ Judas was a good example of a disciple who betrayed Jesus' trust for 30 pieces of silver. However, an overseer accused of numerous cases of CSA within his state (Texas) back in time is ironically commended by another overseer in retrospect for the good he did for the Kingdom in his 10 years as overseer in the state of Texas. What gives here? Don't you feel that CSA is a crime that is also a betrayal of one's trust in a major way with serious repercussions for the victims involved?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 10, 2016 12:54:07 GMT -5
Should a pervert be commended for doing good things for the Kingdom? Doesn't that alone take away any and all good things this person might have done? I don't know...Judas would be a good example to what happens to a servant that goes astray though.... You better get busy handing out rope then Wally.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 10, 2016 13:53:24 GMT -5
In a word: No. A wolf in sheeps clothing. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 15:37:50 GMT -5
I don't know...Judas would be a good example to what happens to a servant that goes astray though.... Wally ~ Judas was a good example of a disciple who betrayed Jesus' trust for 30 pieces of silver. However, an overseer accused of numerous cases of CSA within his state (Texas) back in time is ironically commended by another overseer in retrospect for the good he did for the Kingdom in his 10 years as overseer in the state of Texas. What gives here? Don't you feel that CSA is a crime that is also a betrayal of one's trust in a major way with serious repercussions for the victims involved? do all the people who professed through a CSA worker have to re-profess? as they are the fruit of his labors? and as we heard in another post a bad tree can't bear good fruit right? it goes without saying that the victims are going to have decades long problems after CSA and that CSA is a crime...
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Post by fixit on Feb 10, 2016 15:50:54 GMT -5
Wally ~ Judas was a good example of a disciple who betrayed Jesus' trust for 30 pieces of silver. However, an overseer accused of numerous cases of CSA within his state (Texas) back in time is ironically commended by another overseer in retrospect for the good he did for the Kingdom in his 10 years as overseer in the state of Texas. What gives here? Don't you feel that CSA is a crime that is also a betrayal of one's trust in a major way with serious repercussions for the victims involved? do all the people who professed through a CSA worker have to re-profess? as they are the fruit of his labors? and as we heard in another post a bad tree can't bear good fruit right? it goes without saying that the victims are going to have decades long problems after CSA and that CSA is a crime... I guess if you profess to follow a child sex offender then you'd better find someone more virtuous to profess to follow. However if your profession is about being born again as a child of God then the calibre of the preacher will make no difference.
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 10, 2016 16:21:33 GMT -5
I guess if you profess to follow a child sex offender then you'd better find someone more virtuous to profess to follow. However if your profession is about being born again as a child of God then the calibre of the preacher will make no difference. Yeah. In a nutshell. When I noticed this thread, I wondered if it was precipitated by thoughts of LW. A deeply flawed man, yet with some (seemingly) admirable qualities. Then, I had the question in my mind if Hitler ever did any good? Yes, his legacy is so repugnant, that it makes most of us recoil these days. But there were years where he brought employment, opportunity, hope, to a nation that had been brought to its knees. Then I had to question what is really “Good” and “Not Good”. To me this is best expressed by the story of the Taoist Farmer (lots of versions of these, some degrees deeper on fortune/misfortune, but this makes the point): "There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "Maybe," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed."Maybe," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "Maybe," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe," said the farmer."
In the words of Rumi: “When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. When actions come from another section, the feeling disappears. Don’t let others lead you, they may be blind or, worse, vultures. Reach for the rope of God.”
There is no other way. You can take the good from others and let all the rest of it go. “Reach for the rope of God”.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 10, 2016 16:28:39 GMT -5
Wally ~ Judas was a good example of a disciple who betrayed Jesus' trust for 30 pieces of silver. However, an overseer accused of numerous cases of CSA within his state (Texas) back in time is ironically commended by another overseer in retrospect for the good he did for the Kingdom in his 10 years as overseer in the state of Texas. What gives here? Don't you feel that CSA is a crime that is also a betrayal of one's trust in a major way with serious repercussions for the victims involved? do all the people who professed through a CSA worker have to re-profess? as they are the fruit of his labors? and as we heard in another post a bad tree can't bear good fruit right? it goes without saying that the victims are going to have decades long problems after CSA and that CSA is a crime... Professing has very little to do with being a christian. Neither do the workers.
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Post by magpie on Feb 10, 2016 16:54:39 GMT -5
JUDAS,"ONCE". Jesus was spotless and CRUCIFIED. "2x2s" Deviant criminal unbiblically celibate,CSA pedophile Bro/Sister workers,some revealed dozens of victims over decades,hush hush, yet still worshipped,and transfered overseas or interstate. VICTIMS!!! Innocent children destroyed, if they or family seek justice and/or compassion,from bishop or other 2x2s workers, also will get CRUCIFIED!!!! Remember Stephen Shultz was sent home from preaching,because he laid a complaint against a worshiped Snr preacher,easier (for the pseudo Kingdom)to CRUCIFY (sack) the junior. What would Stephen do to get over this traumatic experience?as he thought he was doing what God would want him to do? P.S. There is another celibate ministry(priesthood) that transfers its criminal deviants to other fields also,sort of absolutely the same?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 18:17:22 GMT -5
do all the people who professed through a CSA worker have to re-profess? as they are the fruit of his labors? and as we heard in another post a bad tree can't bear good fruit right? it goes without saying that the victims are going to have decades long problems after CSA and that CSA is a crime... I guess if you profess to follow a child sex offender then you'd better find someone more virtuous to profess to follow. However if your profession is about being born again as a child of God then the calibre of the preacher will make no difference. as the scripture you quote says some planted and some watered that has to be a good thing/act...we don't hear Jesus belittling Judas work before he betrayed him do we? we do hear him saying he was lost at the end.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 10, 2016 18:28:54 GMT -5
Should a pervert be commended for doing good things for the Kingdom? Doesn't that alone take away any and all good things this person might have done? I don't know...Judas would be a good example to what happens to a servant that goes astray though.... One of the possibilities, anyway.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 10, 2016 18:53:29 GMT -5
What perversion(s) specifically are we talking about?
Perverted or not, no one should be in a position of trust if they have a proclivity for abusing people.
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Post by faune on Feb 10, 2016 22:23:33 GMT -5
What perversion(s) specifically are we talking about? Perverted or not, no one should be in a position of trust if they have a proclivity for abusing people. Bob ~ I definitely agree ~ especially when it involves these "servants of God" molesting the children of the same folks who sing their praises.
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Post by rational on Feb 10, 2016 22:51:06 GMT -5
In a word: No. A wolf in sheeps clothing. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. This leads to some interesting thoughts. If a 'bad' tree bears good fruit is it really a bad tree? Doesn't the fact that a tree has 'bad' fruit make the tree 'bad'? Conversely, if a tree bears 'bad' fruit doesn't that make the tree 'bad'? It makes little sense. Can a walnut tree bear oranges? Of course not - it would be called an orange tree. The tree is known to be good or bad by the quality of its fruit.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 10, 2016 23:25:01 GMT -5
In a word: No. A wolf in sheeps clothing. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. This leads to some interesting thoughts. If a 'bad' tree bears good fruit is it really a bad tree? Doesn't the fact that a tree has 'bad' fruit make the tree 'bad'? Conversely, if a tree bears 'bad' fruit doesn't that make the tree 'bad'? It makes little sense. Can a walnut tree bear oranges? Of course not - it would be called an orange tree. The tree is known to be good or bad by the quality of its fruit. I just pulled it out of scripture. Here is the actual passage from KJV. Sorry if it's a poor representation of what it means. I didn't make it up. Matt 7: 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
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Post by rational on Feb 11, 2016 0:52:02 GMT -5
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. It sounds like the quality of the fruit defines the quality of the tree. If an 'evil' tree brought forth 'good' fruit it would be called a good tree.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 11, 2016 1:04:47 GMT -5
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. It sounds like the quality of the fruit defines the quality of the tree. If an 'evil' tree brought forth 'good' fruit it would be called a good tree. Yes, The quality is of importance, but it wouldn't be an evil tree then, but a good tree. ?
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 11, 2016 1:15:08 GMT -5
I know the pear tree in my yard is a "bad" tree, because it doesn't produce edible fruit. The birch that we cut down was diseased, and we could tell by the leaves. In this same way, we can tell that a man that does these evil things is not a nice man. Some things may appear one way, but the deceit behind his supposed good deeds has been revealed.
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Post by rational on Feb 11, 2016 1:25:41 GMT -5
It sounds like the quality of the fruit defines the quality of the tree. If an 'evil' tree brought forth 'good' fruit it would be called a good tree. Yes, The quality is of importance, but it wouldn't be an evil tree then, but a good tree. ???? So verse 18 really adds no value. If the fruit is good the tree is good!
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Post by faune on Feb 11, 2016 11:26:02 GMT -5
I know the pear tree in my yard is a "bad" tree, because it doesn't produce edible fruit. The birch that we cut down was diseased, and we could tell by the leaves. In this same way, we can tell that a man that does these evil things is not a nice man. Some things may appear one way, but the deceit behind his supposed good deeds has been revealed. The truth is that most of these sexual perverts are very good at disguise and they pick occupations that also help to cover up their natural proclivity. They also try to come across as very righteous to avoid discovery. Therefore, the need of caution on the part of the parents as well as training the children at an early age to identify undesirable behavior is a must in safeguarding your home. Also, don't expect the overseers to really care about predators among them. They have done a fine job in the past of covering up such undesirable behavior until the laws of the land came down on them. That should speak for itself. Best response is to contact the police to investigate when any such offense occurs that reveals a predator in your midst.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 15, 2016 23:58:27 GMT -5
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. It sounds like the quality of the fruit defines the quality of the tree. If an 'evil' tree brought forth 'good' fruit it would be called a good tree. The way I read the verses is that 'good' is defined from the inside out. So if the tree is 'good' inside, its fruit is good. If it is evil inside, its fruit may look good, but it can't be good. The answer to the question in the OP is 'no'. He may have done 'good things'; but they're trumped by his evil nature. The heart of evangelism is being a good example. How could you say anything about the transformative nature of following Jesus, of being born again, if you did something like this? How could you even have rapport with a non-believer? They'd say, "Christianity is a fraud". At the same time, there is always repentance and forgiveness, but that process would take some time before one could have a testimony again. I don't think he could ever evangelize again. All the good things that were done are overthrown by the damage created by his actions.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 16, 2016 0:24:48 GMT -5
In a word: No. A wolf in sheeps clothing. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. This leads to some interesting thoughts. If a 'bad' tree bears good fruit is it really a bad tree? Doesn't the fact that a tree has 'bad' fruit make the tree 'bad'? Conversely, if a tree bears 'bad' fruit doesn't that make the tree 'bad'? It makes little sense. Can a walnut tree bear oranges? Of course not - it would be called an orange tree. The tree is known to be good or bad by the quality of its fruit. This points out the two different kinds of parenting. One parent will see the kid do something wrong and say, "You're a bad kid," Another parent will see the kid do something wrong and say, "That's a bad thing to do."
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 16, 2016 0:35:54 GMT -5
Here's the twist. A good apple tree is really a bad tree with the good grafted into it. The seed of the good apple will only grow a bad apple tree.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 16, 2016 0:47:40 GMT -5
Here's the twist. A good apple tree is really a bad tree with the good grafted into it. The seed of the good apple will only grow a bad apple tree. Ah, but of course. In order to produce the true fruit that Jesus is speaking of here, we need to be grafted in to his tree. As he says "I am the vine, and you are the branches."
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 16, 2016 0:57:25 GMT -5
This leads to some interesting thoughts. If a 'bad' tree bears good fruit is it really a bad tree? Doesn't the fact that a tree has 'bad' fruit make the tree 'bad'? Conversely, if a tree bears 'bad' fruit doesn't that make the tree 'bad'? It makes little sense. Can a walnut tree bear oranges? Of course not - it would be called an orange tree. The tree is known to be good or bad by the quality of its fruit. This points out the two different kinds of parenting. One parent will see the kid do something wrong and say, "You're a bad kid," Another parent will see the kid do something wrong and say, "That's a bad thing to do." Well I'm sure that there are many parents that do respond that way. It's really sad, though, because the behavior of children is both a reflection of their parents/parenting and their hearts. Often there is something going on that's more than what's obvious. Then it's our job to see to the why and address it. It's a little different when morality is still being developed, don't you think?
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