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Post by rational on Feb 16, 2016 1:03:00 GMT -5
It sounds like the quality of the fruit defines the quality of the tree. If an 'evil' tree brought forth 'good' fruit it would be called a good tree. The way I read the verses is that 'good' is defined from the inside out. So if the tree is 'good' inside, its fruit is good. If it is evil inside, its fruit may look good, but it can't be good. I can see where you are going but the facts do not support what you claim. Up until the time the old apple tree in our yard fell down, rotten to its core, it bore apples that were just like the apples found on the healthiest trees in the orchard up the road. I was addressing the quoted biblical verse and taking a literal view. Not sure how you can build a valid parable if there is no factual base to support it.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 16, 2016 1:14:47 GMT -5
Of course this could be the case, and many times we can't tell. Only Jesus can separate the wheat from the chaff. But we should be able to use the brain we were given to be able to tell the false preacher when we see the evil fruit coming from him. This verse is all about the false preacher, which isn't always obvious, but eventually, something will give him away if his hearts not in it. Just like the apple tree that finally just collapsed. It couldn't hide it forever.
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Post by rational on Feb 16, 2016 1:27:31 GMT -5
Of course this could be the case, and many times we can't tell. Only Jesus can separate the wheat from the chaff. But we should be able to use the brain we were given to be able to tell the false preacher when we see the evil fruit coming from him. This verse is all about the false preacher, which isn't always obvious, but eventually, something will give him away if his hearts not in it. Just like the apple tree that finally just collapsed. It couldn't hide it forever. One of the problems is that even after crimes have been committed people are reluctant to report the criminals to the authorities because they still believe, somehow, that people who behave in this manner, or people who protect those who have been guilty of criminal behavior, actually have the ability to determine what happens to them when they die. Does it really make sense that a child molester or someone who protects a child molester will determine your fate after death? Of course, sadly, the bible itself points to criminals as people god considers to be after his/her own heart.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 16, 2016 3:18:51 GMT -5
Here's the twist. A good apple tree is really a bad tree with the good grafted into it. The seed of the good apple will only grow a bad apple tree. Ah, but of course. In order to produce the true fruit that Jesus is speaking of here, we need to be grafted in to his tree. As he says "I am the vine, and you are the branches." In that case, Jesus would be the bad tree and good branches would have been grafter into Him.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 16, 2016 3:22:53 GMT -5
This points out the two different kinds of parenting. One parent will see the kid do something wrong and say, "You're a bad kid," Another parent will see the kid do something wrong and say, "That's a bad thing to do." Well I'm sure that there are many parents that do respond that way. It's really sad, though, because the behavior of children is both a reflection of their parents/parenting and their hearts. Often there is something going on that's more than what's obvious. Then it's our job to see to the why and address it. It's a little different when morality is still being developed, don't you think? Not difficult if the consequences for misbehavior involve guidance rather than punishment. Guidance meaning an explanation of the morality involved. And BTW, I'm not using the word "morality" to mean "God's law". God never explained the morality of anything. None of this really works for kids who are indeed psychotic -- good luck getting help with that.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 16, 2016 12:55:33 GMT -5
The way I read the verses is that 'good' is defined from the inside out. So if the tree is 'good' inside, its fruit is good. If it is evil inside, its fruit may look good, but it can't be good. I can see where you are going but the facts do not support what you claim. Up until the time the old apple tree in our yard fell down, rotten to its core, it bore apples that were just like the apples found on the healthiest trees in the orchard up the road. I was addressing the quoted biblical verse and taking a literal view. Not sure how you can build a valid parable if there is no factual base to support it. I assume that you're not arguing about the correct-ness of that interpretation of the verse, but whether or not trees in nature exhibit this property. So I'll continue, given that you accept my premise. Like you, I'm against using the Bible as science. The Bible actually has nothing to say about how trees work in reality. What we have here is the surmised behaviour of trees used as a metaphor to explain how God sees the "fruit" or product of or lives. As a metaphor it's main value is as a framework for thinking, somewhat at odds with how people usually think about goodness. The main value of Jesus' lesson is to think twice in evaluating the actions of others. God is looking for genuine "fruit", not just a leafy tree. Using that as a departure point leads to a number of interesting propositions concerning our personal growth and our growth in relationships with others. We might not be evaluating "fruit" as God sees it. Someone who we think is good, may not be good to an all knowing and properly discerning God. Someone who we think is bad, may not be bad to an all knowing and properly discerning God. Life is a path of discovery in seeing things as God sees them. As we discover, we may need to re-orient our personal goals in order to please God. We may also need to re-orient our relationships and viewpoints as we go along. There are many other lessons and parables which dovetail with the parable of the fig tree. I believe it is one of the most important parables Jesus taught, a central feature of worker preaching and personal testimonies, and strangely omitted by many redemptive preachers. They're uncomfortable with ideas concerning "works" and think it interferes with ideas on redemption through Christ. It does no such thing, as you are probably aware.
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 16, 2016 15:19:08 GMT -5
The way I read the verses is that 'good' is defined from the inside out. So if the tree is 'good' inside, its fruit is good. If it is evil inside, its fruit may look good, but it can't be good. I can see where you are going but the facts do not support what you claim. Up until the time the old apple tree in our yard fell down, rotten to its core, it bore apples that were just like the apples found on the healthiest trees in the orchard up the road. I was addressing the quoted biblical verse and taking a literal view. Not sure how you can build a valid parable if there is no factual base to support it. Being "rotten to its core", how does that make it a "bad" tree? Does that not more reflect the tree taking its place in the "Circle of Life"? Taking a literal view of a Bible verse probably isn't going to do much for you. And that's okay. Maybe you can learn what you need to know from some other source. It does not negate the wisdom and the meaning that others may derive from the Bible.
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Post by blandie on Feb 16, 2016 16:36:40 GMT -5
Yes its a comparison and not to do with fruit farming but even so the word corrupt or rotten isn't necessarily literally wrong because words did and do carry more than one meaning - depending on what its being used to describe words like bad can mean ugly or morally deviant or poisonous or useless or detrimental in lots of ways for example and the word used to describe the tree and fruit similarly was used in greek to literally mean not fit for consumption and rottenness and corruption and waste and worthless and such. Having grown trees for fruit I can tell you that unless you go for modern grafted or hybrid stock that some trees produce fruit thats worthless for eating and they look just like those with edible fruit and you cut those bad trees down if you're growing for fruit.
Back to the first part of the topic I think maybe the kingdom exists because of the king and doesn't depend on anyone else and from the standpoint of salvation not being earned and all sin being equally worthy of death and all of us having sinned that doesn't mean that we get to judge anyone's salvation or usefulness to god by that standard. What we can do is look at fruits and determine from what root those arose - a person can be saved even tho their works get burned up - 1 corinth 3:15 - and we can also compare fruits like a teaching or a claim to authority or a tradition or an organization or non-organization and such to the bible to determine whether it came from there or from out of something else. The bible says to be discerning. In matthew 3 and luke jesus is talking about the false veneer of righteousness of the pharisee works-based outside-of-the-cup tradition and in matthew 7 jesus is talking about detecting false prophets. In earthly matters affecting our responsibilities we also judge between good and evil and profitable and useless and you wouldn't put a active con-artist in charge of your finances or a pedophile in charge of your kids even if you still regarded him or her as a spiritual or physical brother or sister.
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Post by rational on Feb 17, 2016 0:10:45 GMT -5
I can see where you are going but the facts do not support what you claim. Up until the time the old apple tree in our yard fell down, rotten to its core, it bore apples that were just like the apples found on the healthiest trees in the orchard up the road. I was addressing the quoted biblical verse and taking a literal view. Not sure how you can build a valid parable if there is no factual base to support it. Being "rotten to its core", how does that make it a "bad" tree? Does that not more reflect the tree taking its place in the "Circle of Life"? Taking a literal view of a Bible verse probably isn't going to do much for you. And that's okay. Maybe you can learn what you need to know from some other source. It does not negate the wisdom and the meaning that others may derive from the Bible. I was just trying to make sense of it all. Logically, it seems that the fruit determines whether the tree is good or bad. Good fruit - good tree. Bad fruit - bad tree. So in this sense, by definition a good tree cannot deliver bad fruit. If it did it would be a bad tree. Although as much as I like the Ginkgo biloba tree I would have to admit that the fruit of the female tree is bad! Unless, of course, you like the smell of vomit, rancid butter, and butyric acid!
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Post by slowtosee on Feb 17, 2016 0:22:58 GMT -5
"I was literally sweating bullets' or'it was literally raining cats and dogs" idioms would not prevent a lesson to be taught , by using them in a parable, whatever the lesson was to be. The listener would not be looking for bullets flying or German Shepherds and poodles falling from the sky, but a lesson could surely be learned, with the correct understanding , context , linguistics, etc etc. etc. Alvin
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Post by matisse on Feb 17, 2016 4:00:34 GMT -5
Being "rotten to its core", how does that make it a "bad" tree? Does that not more reflect the tree taking its place in the "Circle of Life"? Taking a literal view of a Bible verse probably isn't going to do much for you. And that's okay. Maybe you can learn what you need to know from some other source. It does not negate the wisdom and the meaning that others may derive from the Bible. I was just trying to make sense of it all. Logically, it seems that the fruit determines whether the tree is good or bad. Good fruit - good tree. Bad fruit - bad tree. So in this sense, by definition a good tree cannot deliver bad fruit. If it did it would be a bad tree. Although as much as I like the Ginkgo biloba tree I would have to admit that the fruit of the female tree is bad! Unless, of course, you like the smell of vomit, rancid butter, and butyric acid! Some say the fruit of the female Ginkgo biloba tree smells like dog excrement. Not surprisingly, some dogs eat this fruit like it is the most delicious thing ever.
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Post by ellie on Feb 17, 2016 7:20:39 GMT -5
I was just trying to make sense of it all. Logically, it seems that the fruit determines whether the tree is good or bad. Good fruit - good tree. Bad fruit - bad tree. So in this sense, by definition a good tree cannot deliver bad fruit. If it did it would be a bad tree. Although as much as I like the Ginkgo biloba tree I would have to admit that the fruit of the female tree is bad! Unless, of course, you like the smell of vomit, rancid butter, and butyric acid! Some say the fruit of the female Ginkgo biloba tree smells like dog excrement. Not surprisingly, some dogs eat this fruit like it is the most delicious thing ever.And to think I thought Durian was as bad as it got. Vomit smell is a whole other level.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 17, 2016 9:53:51 GMT -5
I can see where you are going but the facts do not support what you claim. Up until the time the old apple tree in our yard fell down, rotten to its core, it bore apples that were just like the apples found on the healthiest trees in the orchard up the road. I was addressing the quoted biblical verse and taking a literal view. Not sure how you can build a valid parable if there is no factual base to support it. Being "rotten to its core", how does that make it a "bad" tree? Does that not more reflect the tree taking its place in the "Circle of Life"? Taking a literal view of a Bible verse probably isn't going to do much for you. And that's okay. Maybe you can learn what you need to know from some other source. It does not negate the wisdom and the meaning that others may derive from the Bible. I like the underlined sentence and your post. It's fundamental to how I have come to think about life and my role in it as a Christian.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 17, 2016 9:57:53 GMT -5
"I was literally sweating bullets' or'it was literally raining cats and dogs" idioms would not prevent a lesson to be taught , by using them in a parable, whatever the lesson was to be. The listener would not be looking for bullets flying or German Shepherds and poodles falling from the sky, but a lesson could surely be learned, with the correct understanding , context , linguistics, etc etc. etc. Alvin Did you hear the one about the Manitoba farmer who stepped outside to survey the weather just as an overhead aircraft, which was carrying service parts for old Nissan cars, was forced to jettison its entire cargo after experiencing total engine loss? "Head for the basement", he said to his wife, "it's raining Datsun cogs out".
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Post by rational on Feb 17, 2016 11:02:08 GMT -5
"I was literally sweating bullets' or'it was literally raining cats and dogs" idioms would not prevent a lesson to be taught , by using them in a parable, whatever the lesson was to be. The listener would not be looking for bullets flying or German Shepherds and poodles falling from the sky, but a lesson could surely be learned, with the correct understanding , context , linguistics, etc etc. etc. Alvin Removing the word 'literally' would give more credence to it being a metaphor. The usual use of 'literal' is to make the point that what you are saying is not a metaphor.
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 17, 2016 15:06:20 GMT -5
"I was literally sweating bullets' or'it was literally raining cats and dogs" idioms would not prevent a lesson to be taught , by using them in a parable, whatever the lesson was to be. The listener would not be looking for bullets flying or German Shepherds and poodles falling from the sky, but a lesson could surely be learned, with the correct understanding , context , linguistics, etc etc. etc. Alvin Removing the word 'literally' would give more credence to it being a metaphor. The usual use of 'literal' is to make the point that what you are saying is not a metaphor. I think the word "literally" here, is simply meant for emphasis. lit·er·al·ly adverb adverb: literally in a literal manner or sense; exactly. "the driver took it literally when asked to go straight across the traffic circle" •informal used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true. "I have received literally thousands of letters"
Classic Joseph Campbell: "He runs like a deer" is the simile. "He is a deer" is the metaphor. Obviously, to any literalist, physicalist, materialist (take your pick) - the metaphor is a "lie". (Of course it is. He's a member of Homo sapiens, he's not a deer.) Words are not precise. At best, they point to an underlying reality, that may or may not be shared. Words are symbolic. In being able/willing to reach beyond "what is stated" to "what it is trying to capture", means our species can continue to evolve, IMO, in much needed ways. We would never have got beyond "The cat sat on the mat" types of communication otherwise.
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Post by rational on Feb 17, 2016 21:09:43 GMT -5
I think the word "literally" here, is simply meant for emphasis. lit·er·al·ly adverb adverb: literally in a literal manner or sense; exactly. "the driver took it literally when asked to go straight across the traffic circle" •informal used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true. "I have received literally thousands of letters"
I know. It was a very sad day when it was announced that the definition of literally was no longer the literal definition of literally.
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Post by magpie on Feb 17, 2016 21:47:00 GMT -5
Perverted or not? Exclusive theology is a perverted teaching (only ones going to heaven,rest going to hell)so no WORKER IS GOOD FOR GOD'S KINGDOM as it is a judgemental divisive theology not a healing one. I have mentioned Judas before his converts are not responsable for his downfall,are they?. So question answered.
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Post by rational on Feb 17, 2016 22:10:10 GMT -5
Perverted or not? Exclusive theology is a perverted teaching (only ones going to heaven,rest going to hell)so no WORKER IS GOOD FOR GOD'S KINGDOM as it is a judgemental divisive theology not a healing one. I have mentioned Judas before his converts are not responsable for his downfall,are they?. So question answered. I find this difficult to do but I agree with you. However I don't think you will ever get a religion like Christianity or Islam to change on their own. Vote with your feet and renounce those exclusive theologies!
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Post by magpie on Feb 18, 2016 6:21:26 GMT -5
G'day my ol mate. Yes the exclusive only ones to go to heaven. Heaven will need a lot of gated suburbs.
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Post by rational on Feb 18, 2016 10:11:20 GMT -5
G'day my ol mate. Yes the exclusive only ones to go to heaven. Heaven will need a lot of gated suburbs. Although you posted "Exclusive theology is a perverted teaching..." it sounds like you are comfortable continuing on following what you have termed a perverted teaching. How can a perverted teaching lead to heaven?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2016 11:02:59 GMT -5
No. One cannot be evil and at the same time be a Christian.So whatever they have done was from the Devil.They can however repent from their sin and turn to God excepting Him as their Savior. And then their works will be orchestrated by God and not the Devil and therefore it would be considered "good works". Not "good works" of one self but good works through Christ in us our hope of glory.Because we will be saved by our works, Revelations 22:12.
1John 3: 6-9. 1John 1:8 contradicts 1John 3:6-9. How I understand it and I will gladly except corrections,is that we cannot go on sinning by choice once we have been born again,there is another POWER controlling our thoughts and therefore our actions. We will still sin but when we do it it won't be because we made a conscientious choice to do so but at that moment we were not aware that we were actually sinning.And that is so true for myself,I don't have any guile and do not sin out of choice. When I do something that is not according to God's will I will feel bad about it and will apologies afterwards. I am in no way putting myself on a pedestal, Christ within me my only hope of glory!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 18, 2016 13:10:29 GMT -5
The workers pervert the gospel of Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2016 14:26:53 GMT -5
The workers pervert the gospel of Christ.[/quote
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2016 14:28:32 GMT -5
The workers pervert the gospel of Christ.[/quote That is generalizing,not a good thing to do.Not all workers are perverts. Wolves in sheep's clothes can unfortunately be found in any church. But they will be known by the fruit they bare which will come to the surface sooner or later.
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Post by Mary on Feb 18, 2016 15:59:44 GMT -5
Unfortunately for most, it is later rather than sooner, if at all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2016 17:13:50 GMT -5
Unfortunately for most, it is later rather than sooner, if at all. Can't do much about that.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 18, 2016 17:51:02 GMT -5
The workers pervert the gospel of Christ. I mean their version of the gospel is a perversion of the true gospel.
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