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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 22:39:39 GMT -5
I gave you 2 reliable sources for information one from your own country I might add. in fact in a previous post you used AIC to try and refute something I said to no avail... "The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968" www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html. again I was talking about the increase in general violence but you seem to be stuck on firearm violence...
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 22:41:07 GMT -5
"The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968" www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html. again I was talking about the increase in general violence but you seem to be stuck on firearm violence... I thought we were talking about firearm violence @wally ??
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 22:41:59 GMT -5
I gave you 2 reliable sources for information one from your own country I might add. in fact in a previous post you used AIC to try and refute something I said to no avail... A BBC article from 2001? Are you kidding? Homicide rates across the western world, including the USA, have been decreasing for more than a decade. In the UK they went up from 97 to around 2002, and have been declining ever since. The year over year trend in crime rates are subject to many different factors. The basic fact is that the UK has never had a proliferation of handguns before or after the handgun ban. Homicides in Australia are also on a declining trend. It's right on the AIC site that you linked. Robberies are also down. Sexual assaults are up ... I don't believe gun control will help on that one. In Australia, assaults are increasing but deaths are decreasing. So the population is more prone to exert violence but fewer people are dying as a result. I wonder why. again your on firearms and deaths I was on about general violence and never the twain shall meet...i'm still looking for the UK gimme a break...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 22:44:13 GMT -5
again I was talking about the increase in general violence but you seem to be stuck on firearm violence... I thought we were talking about firearm violence @wally ?? if you'll go back and look at the AIC links I provided you'll see they were about general violence not firearms...i'm still working on the UK violence gimme a break...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 22:50:39 GMT -5
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 7, 2016 23:59:50 GMT -5
Tell me if I am misunderstanding you, and never mind Roselyn and bendle. You said that there is violent crime in every country, and I think your point is that the USA is not so very different than other countries with respect to violent crime, as opposed to gun crime. I did turn the question to gun crime because to me, gun crime and violent crime correlate. But let's talk about violent crime then. There is just way more VIOLENT CRIME in the USA than in any other Western country. If you don't want to look at gun death statistics then look at overall homicide statistics, which I presented in a post above. But even more shocking are the accidental deaths caused by guns, which are far more than those in any other Western country. It doesn't matter how you cook the broth, your way or my way, looking at the actual numbers indicate that the USA has a serious problem with guns. you mean like how violent crime soared in the UK and Australia when they implemented gun control? there were many stories on the internet about that after it happened.
under reporting by gov'ts is nothing new its called propaganda...
there are about 500-1000 accidental deaths by firearms by people under 25 each year given that we have 300+ million plus firearms that's nothing i'm surprised there are not more...and before you say it yes everyone is a tragedy
by comparison 9,900 people were killed by drunk drivers each year and yet we don't ban cars or alcohol nor do we check with breathalizers on each car before a person drives(which could be done) nor do we do background checks on potential drivers...another fact nearly 100,000 die each year from alcohol induced diseases and yet we don't ban alcohol...another fact we've aborted about 50 million babies since the 1960's enough said?
so save the concern for life roleplaying I don't buy it...
Your first two paragraphs contain two bits of right wing rubbish. The stats do not support you on that unless you happen to look at some right wing site.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 0:03:40 GMT -5
you mean like how violent crime soared in the UK and Australia when they implemented gun control? there were many stories on the internet about that after it happened.
under reporting by gov'ts is nothing new its called propaganda...
there are about 500-1000 accidental deaths by firearms by people under 25 each year given that we have 300+ million plus firearms that's nothing i'm surprised there are not more...and before you say it yes everyone is a tragedy
by comparison 9,900 people were killed by drunk drivers each year and yet we don't ban cars or alcohol nor do we check with breathalizers on each car before a person drives(which could be done) nor do we do background checks on potential drivers...another fact nearly 100,000 die each year from alcohol induced diseases and yet we don't ban alcohol...another fact we've aborted about 50 million babies since the 1960's enough said?
so save the concern for life roleplaying I don't buy it...
Your first two paragraphs contain two bits of right wing rubbish. The stats do not support you on that unless you happen to look at some right wing site. sorry but AIC is an Australian gov't site and far from being right wing and neither is the BBC...so I call rubbish on your rubbish...good try though LOL
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 8, 2016 0:31:12 GMT -5
The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968" www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 8, 2016 1:46:44 GMT -5
Thanks Roselyn for that little statistic. Facts are shockers when they don't support the gun nuts view.
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Post by sunshine on Feb 8, 2016 3:00:15 GMT -5
I am curious if the general idea amongst the F&W in the US is the same as @wally 's view : " the jews had faith in God and owned swords so to do Christians(where allowed) have faith in Jesus and God and own firearms..." If a person has faith in God, why do they need a gun for protection? Don't they think God will take care of his own? The idea of a Christian owing a gun for protection is something I find strange. Its hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of not owning a gun for protection, no matter what religion you are. I don't live near a city, but it would be just complete stupidity to go into the woods around here to pick berries, or even just for a walk without packing at least a handgun for protection against cougars, bears, wolves, and rattlesnakes. And you better do a lot of target practicing so you're a good shot. I don't know anyone around who doesn't own guns, except a few old ladies, and even some of them will surprise you with their gun collection. Most of the friends around here own guns. Its just common sense. What if you have to put an injured animal out of its misery, like a dog that was hit by a car... And then, of course there's actual hunting to get a supply of meat. Another reason to have a gun is for protection of our home and family against intruders. I can't imagine just standing by and letting some evil person or drug-addicted maniac break into our home, and just cowardly bow down to his demands, or let him harm my family. Why not be ready to threaten him instead and take command of the situation, and if necessary, shoot him in the leg or whatever it takes to bring him down...You can't always depend on the government or police to come and take care of you, especially if you live out in the boonies. Get a guard dog too, while you're at it.A dog can stop a lot of intruders. People are going to think twice about breaking into homes where they know everyone has guns, and and are ready to use them.....What if you are in a public place, and there's a shooter....if there are people with handguns, they can stop someone from senselessly shooting a bunch of innocent people until the police arrive. ....just my two cents, and just plain common sense about owning guns, being able to use them quickly, safely, and efficiently, no matter what religion you are.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 8, 2016 3:17:23 GMT -5
I am curious if the general idea amongst the F&W in the US is the same as @wally 's view : " the jews had faith in God and owned swords so to do Christians(where allowed) have faith in Jesus and God and own firearms..." If a person has faith in God, why do they need a gun for protection? Don't they think God will take care of his own? The idea of a Christian owing a gun for protection is something I find strange. Its hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of not owning a gun for protection, no matter what religion you are. I don't live near a city, but it would be just complete stupidity to go into the woods around here to pick berries, or even just for a walk without packing at least a handgun for protection against cougars, bears, wolves, and rattlesnakes. And you better do a lot of target practicing so you're a good shot. I don't know anyone around who doesn't own guns, except a few old ladies, and even some of them will surprise you with their gun collection. Most of the friends around here own guns. Its just common sense. What if you have to put an injured animal out of its misery, like a dog that was hit by a car... And then, of course there's actual hunting to get a supply of meat. Another reason to have a gun is for protection of our home and family against intruders. I can't imagine just standing by and letting some evil person or drug-addicted maniac break into our home, and just cowardly bow down to his demands, or let him harm my family. Why not be ready to threaten him instead and take command of the situation, and if necessary, shoot him in the leg or whatever it takes to bring him down...You can't always depend on the government or police to come and take care of you, especially if you live out in the boonies. Get a guard dog too, while you're at it.A dog can stop a lot of intruders. People are going to think twice about breaking into homes where they know everyone has guns, and and are ready to use them.....What if you are in a public place, and there's a shooter....if there are people with handguns, they can stop someone from senselessly shooting a bunch of innocent people until the police arrive. ....just my two cents, and just plain common sense about owning guns, being able to use them quickly, safely, and efficiently, no matter what religion you are. I understand people who live on farms or in the bush having guns for hunting, but for self protection I don't understand. "What if you are in a public place, and there's a shooter....if there are people with handguns, they can stop someone from senselessly shooting a bunch of innocent people until the police arrive. ....just my two cents, and just plain common sense about owning guns, being able to use them quickly, safely, and efficiently, no matter what religion you are. [/quote]" As to the above being common sense .... I suppose that is a matter of opinion, If the above played out differently eg the shooter shoots the innocent people because another person has a gun on them, what has it proved ? I can just imagine what would happen to a person if this played out in Sydney or Melbourne. Do you ever wonder why the workers don't carry guns ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 8, 2016 3:19:40 GMT -5
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Post by Grant on Feb 8, 2016 3:24:39 GMT -5
Hard for me to wrap my head around people owning a gun for protection. Guess you need to protect yourself from other people with guns. How many countries allow people to carry guns around?
Workers not carrying guns may be related to Matthew 10 not having money or swords.
Oops it doesn't say don't carry a sword in Matthew 10 but it does say take one in Luke 22 in reference to Matthew 10.
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Post by sunshine on Feb 8, 2016 3:28:09 GMT -5
Its hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of not owning a gun for protection, no matter what religion you are. I don't live near a city, but it would be just complete stupidity to go into the woods around here to pick berries, or even just for a walk without packing at least a handgun for protection against cougars, bears, wolves, and rattlesnakes. And you better do a lot of target practicing so you're a good shot. I don't know anyone around who doesn't own guns, except a few old ladies, and even some of them will surprise you with their gun collection. Most of the friends around here own guns. Its just common sense. What if you have to put an injured animal out of its misery, like a dog that was hit by a car... And then, of course there's actual hunting to get a supply of meat. Another reason to have a gun is for protection of our home and family against intruders. I can't imagine just standing by and letting some evil person or drug-addicted maniac break into our home, and just cowardly bow down to his demands, or let him harm my family. Why not be ready to threaten him instead and take command of the situation, and if necessary, shoot him in the leg or whatever it takes to bring him down...You can't always depend on the government or police to come and take care of you, especially if you live out in the boonies. Get a guard dog too, while you're at it.A dog can stop a lot of intruders. People are going to think twice about breaking into homes where they know everyone has guns, and and are ready to use them.....What if you are in a public place, and there's a shooter....if there are people with handguns, they can stop someone from senselessly shooting a bunch of innocent people until the police arrive. ....just my two cents, and just plain common sense about owning guns, being able to use them quickly, safely, and efficiently, no matter what religion you are. I understand people who live on farms or in the bush having guns for hunting, but for self protection I don't understand. "What if you are in a public place, and there's a shooter....if there are people with handguns, they can stop someone from senselessly shooting a bunch of innocent people until the police arrive. ....just my two cents, and just plain common sense about owning guns, being able to use them quickly, safely, and efficiently, no matter what religion you are. " As to the above being common sense .... I suppose that is a matter of opinion, If the above played out differently eg the shooter shoots the innocent people because another person has a gun on them, what has it proved ? I can just imagine what would happen to a person if this played out in Sydney or Melbourne. Do you ever wonder why the workers don't carry guns ? If the shooter starts shooting innocent people, then shoot him and stop him from killing anymore ..that's what the police would have to do...and there are some workers in the USA who have guns....just saying...
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 8, 2016 3:38:48 GMT -5
I understand people who live on farms or in the bush having guns for hunting, but for self protection I don't understand. "What if you are in a public place, and there's a shooter....if there are people with handguns, they can stop someone from senselessly shooting a bunch of innocent people until the police arrive. ....just my two cents, and just plain common sense about owning guns, being able to use them quickly, safely, and efficiently, no matter what religion you are. " As to the above being common sense .... I suppose that is a matter of opinion, If the above played out differently eg the shooter shoots the innocent people because another person has a gun on them, what has it proved ? I can just imagine what would happen to a person if this played out in Sydney or Melbourne. Do you ever wonder why the workers don't carry guns ? If the shooter starts shooting innocent people, then shoot him and stop him from killing anymore ..that's what the police would have to do...and there are some workers in the USA who have guns....just saying... [/quote] But we are not the Police ! So how many workers in the USA have guns? In Australia the workers even discourage people from going in the Armed Forces, and they don't carry guns ! So I suppose it goes back to a different rule for a different country even in the so called "Only right way" !
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Post by sunshine on Feb 8, 2016 3:56:43 GMT -5
" As to the above being common sense .... I suppose that is a matter of opinion, If the above played out differently eg the shooter shoots the innocent people because another person has a gun on them, what has it proved ? I can just imagine what would happen to a person if this played out in Sydney or Melbourne. Do you ever wonder why the workers don't carry guns ? If the shooter starts shooting innocent people, then shoot him and stop him from killing anymore ..that's what the police would have to do...and there are some workers in the USA who have guns....just saying... But we are not the Police ! So how many workers in the USA have guns? In Australia the workers even discourage people from going in the Armed Forces, and they don't carry guns ! So I suppose it goes back to a different rule for a different country even in the so called "Only right way" ! [/quote]" Sometimes you just have do what you must to try to save lives until the police arrive..........there are a lot of friends here in the military, and more young professing men becoming policemen. I do not know how many workers have guns, and would guess only a small handful, if even that......and , honestly, I don't think gun ownership has anything to do with "so called rules of the right way", just personal choice. Im just glad to live in a country where we have the freedom to bear arms, And it would be pretty difficult to take guns from Americans...
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 8, 2016 6:14:54 GMT -5
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Post by ellie on Feb 8, 2016 7:21:09 GMT -5
Its hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of not owning a gun for protection, no matter what religion you are. I don't live near a city, but it would be just complete stupidity to go into the woods around here to pick berries, or even just for a walk without packing at least a handgun for protection against cougars, bears, wolves, and rattlesnakes. And you better do a lot of target practicing so you're a good shot. Well this is news to me, and many other nature lovers, I'd imagine. I have spent a bit of time in the woods in your country and my safety items consist of a first-aid kit, a PLB and a bear canister for storing my food away from my person. Never once have I required a gun for the purpose of protection from wildlife. I find the idea distasteful. Why on earth would somebody need to kill a rattlesnake in the woods for protection ? Most animals are far more scared of us then we are of them.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 8, 2016 9:50:14 GMT -5
A BBC article from 2001? Are you kidding? Homicide rates across the western world, including the USA, have been decreasing for more than a decade. In the UK they went up from 97 to around 2002, and have been declining ever since. The year over year trend in crime rates are subject to many different factors. The basic fact is that the UK has never had a proliferation of handguns before or after the handgun ban. Homicides in Australia are also on a declining trend. It's right on the AIC site that you linked. Robberies are also down. Sexual assaults are up ... I don't believe gun control will help on that one. In Australia, assaults are increasing but deaths are decreasing. So the population is more prone to exert violence but fewer people are dying as a result. I wonder why. again your on firearms and deaths I was on about general violence and never the twain shall meet...i'm still looking for the UK gimme a break... What relevance is "general violence"? The idea of gun control is not to reduce general violence ... it's to reduce death and injury. For example, pounding someone with your fists is an assault, and so is shooting them in the leg with a gun. Gun control will do nothing about the former so I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. It's gun related accidents and crime that we're concerned about.
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Post by blacksheep on Feb 8, 2016 9:59:51 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Feb 8, 2016 10:08:34 GMT -5
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 8, 2016 13:10:47 GMT -5
A couple of you have mentioned taking a firearm with you for protection from wildlife whilst out in the woods. My two cents worth. I have numerous friends from NZ that have gone across to the USA to do some of your famous walks such as the Appalachian and Pacific Crest and others. These take several months to complete. Not one of them has ever taken a gun, they have seen wildlife but there are other methods of staying safe which do work. The only person I know from here that has needed to carry a gun for protection over there works as a guide/lecturer on a Polar cruise ship and she is required to carry a 12 gauge and a flare pistol when out on ice with punters. She has seen loads of polar bears and has some fabulous photos of them taken with care and has never needed to use the gun. I think that the average United Statian does not feel comfortable outdoors and therefore tries to even up the odds with a gun.
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gells
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Firearms
Feb 8, 2016 13:24:13 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 8, 2016 13:24:13 GMT -5
A couple of you have mentioned taking a firearm with you for protection from wildlife whilst out in the woods. My two cents worth. I have numerous friends from NZ that have gone across to the USA to do some of your famous walks such as the Appalachian and Pacific Crest and others. These take several months to complete. Not one of them has ever taken a gun, they have seen wildlife but there are other methods of staying safe which do work. The only person I know from here that has needed to carry a gun for protection over there works as a guide/lecturer on a Polar cruise ship and she is required to carry a 12 gauge and a flare pistol when out on ice with punters. She has seen loads of polar bears and has some fabulous photos of them taken with care and has never needed to use the gun. I think that the average United Statian does not feel comfortable outdoors and therefore tries to even up the odds with a gun. Lol. The average United Statian doesn't think about these things on a daily basis and doesn't carry a gun. At least not the ones I've met. And I've met a few. But it's not like I've lived here my whole life or anything. Only born and raised in the suburbs of Chicago. Lol.
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gells
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Firearms
Feb 8, 2016 13:30:11 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 8, 2016 13:30:11 GMT -5
Although, I would be curious to know how someone that is familiar with the wilderness of the states would, say, ward of a cougar. Now these aren't in very many states and they stick mostly to the mountains. So, I don't honestly know. But I do know they are dangerous to men, and wouldn't want to become their dinner. What I've heard is that people don't want to kill these animals because they are an important part of the ecosystem, but often use gun shot to run them off.
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Post by slowtosee on Feb 8, 2016 14:02:54 GMT -5
FYI Some DATA I guess one could argue the 650 babies killed in 2013 in netherlands died with dignity under doctor assisted death, with drugs rather than with a gun. Suicide stats in usa i think are fairly high using poisons, so not sure guns are the preferred method or not. Some suicide by jumping and prob hard to ban or control. If a person desires death, quite a few options ? Sad to read those stats anout babies killed. ? Some there. Initiaally supporting are having second thoughts on wisdom of legalizing assisted suicide. Alvin Gun Deaths Are Mostly Suicides in the USA. If but for religion, the USA would have national dignity in death laws. It's a shame, in most states, many can only end their life with a gun. www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html?_r=0The USA is becoming a safer country. www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/us/with-crime-down-us-faces-legacy-of-a-violent-age-.html
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 8, 2016 14:05:49 GMT -5
Gells, I can't answer from first hand knowledge but can say from what I have been told by people from here that have gone across for tramping and mountaineering trips. They see numerous wildlife including the cougar and rattlesnakes. Especially the rattlesnakes as many of the rock climbing areas are the homes of rattlesnakes. Climbers just learn to be careful. As for cougars I have been told they seem to slink off when humans are around and are not at all keen on staying about for a photo or two. Bears are a different story. Stupid people and stupid bears are a bad mixture. Never sleep with your food.
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Post by sunshine on Feb 8, 2016 14:23:15 GMT -5
Its hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of not owning a gun for protection, no matter what religion you are. I don't live near a city, but it would be just complete stupidity to go into the woods around here to pick berries, or even just for a walk without packing at least a handgun for protection against cougars, bears, wolves, and rattlesnakes. And you better do a lot of target practicing so you're a good shot. Well this is news to me, and many other nature lovers, I'd imagine. I have spent a bit of time in the woods in your country and my safety items consist of a first-aid kit, a PLB and a bear canister for storing my food away from my person. Never once have I required a gun for the purpose of protection from wildlife. I find the idea distasteful. Why on earth would somebody need to kill a rattlesnake in the woods for protection ? Most animals are far more scared of us then we are of them. I am also a nature lover... And the ONLY time I would use a gun on these type of animals is if they showed agressive attack-mode behavior toward me or my kids, or livestock.. Thankfully most of the time they go away from humans. We live next to one of the largest wilderness areas where there are a lot of cougars, and packs of non-native (introduced) huge wolves that have become problem, attacking elk and ripping their hind ends off, and they are left half alive, killing elk calves, and not eating them, killing pets, dogs, and livestock....and you think I'm not going to carry a gun in the woods for protection? In most of the woods of the USA you wouldn't need a gun, but in this area of the northwest you do.
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Post by blacksheep on Feb 8, 2016 14:59:57 GMT -5
I am not qualified to provide an informed response to the question raised by the OP, as I have not been a part of The 2x2 Fellowship for about 40 years. That being said, I can share a few recollections of my time being raised in a "professing" rural family that might shed a little light on their attitudes toward firearms.
My father's family were dirt farmers in the American mid-west. Firearms were owned by all, and viewed simply as tools, with no special love or affection above any other tool. For some jobs, the firearm was the best tool. Not to say that these jobs couldn't be done with some other tool, just that the firearm happened to be the best. I am an urban citizen, not a rural one, but the farmer's attitude remains within me.
I became a tradesman, and I would employ the best tool available for any given task, even though there were other means to accomplish what ever it was I needed to do. For example, if there was a power saw available, I would use that rather than a handsaw. If I had a drill motor with me, I would use it rather that claim that electric drill motors were unnecessary since hand-crank drills could do the same job. Same thing with with hammers; I'd rather use a hammer than my fist or a rock when pounding was needed.
My attitude is the same for guns. They are tools, nothing more. Yes, they are dangerous, just like a power saw, you don't leave them laying around for children to play with. But neither do you have a hysterical fear of them.
Although getting hit by random gunfire is a possibility, I feel that it is much more likely to be injured or killed by an automobile driven by a person who is texting on their mobile device. Yet we do not hear the public outcry over texting while behind the wheel.
Anyway, back to the 2-bys. My dad was drafted into the US Army just before the US entered WWII, and remained in the military throughout the war. He was granted Conscientious Objector status with the aid of the Christian Conventions letter signed by George Walker. Although he owned firearms back on the farm, he refused to bear arms. I am not entirely sure, and can't ask him since hes gone on, but I think part of the objection was that the government would determine who needed shooting. The soldier had no choice in the matter once he was armed and forced into a combat situation. As a civilian, my dad kept a shotgun, even though he no longer lived on the farm. I think if his domicile was violated by malefactors that dad would have given them a load of buckshot.
As was often the case, the 2-bys mixed Old and New Testament as needed. I believe the passage used to justify killing intruders was Exodus 22:2. Briefly, it says that if a thief enters your tent during the daylight hours, he is to be brought up on charges, but if a thief enters your tent after dark and you kill him, you will not be charged with any violation.
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