gells
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Post by gells on Feb 6, 2016 20:03:32 GMT -5
I think what gells is saying is that if gun ownership by a Christian is evidence that person does not trust God to protect him, then similarly, for example, a Christian who takes the annual flu shot (jab) evidently doesn't trust God to protect him. Yes, I understand. But my answer really had nothing to do with trusting God -- it had to do with respect for human life. Well, I would never want to use one, and I don't know that I could actually do it, because I do so value human life. But if my only option to save my daughter from let's say being raped, I would have a choice to make. Do I value life? Or do I just sit and let it happen? I pray that I would never have a situation like that, but I have children, and you better believe I won't sit back and allow someone to harm my child!
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 6, 2016 20:20:06 GMT -5
To those who trust in god and believe in prayer, Why would you possess a firearm to protect self or loved ones? To do so informs you have doubts about your god's ability to respond to your requests and needs. Thank you joanna, my thoughts exactly !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 20:23:51 GMT -5
Did god tell you what type of weapon to purchase @wally ? Surprising he did not recommend you stick with a sword as they effectively murdered the Canaanites, Midianites and his other victims. It must be easy to justify the taking up of arms when you believe in the God of Abraham. Violence is a central theme of the Hebrew bible. nope he left that choice to me...
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 6, 2016 20:28:22 GMT -5
Did god tell you what type of weapon to purchase @wally ? Surprising he did not recommend you stick with a sword as they effectively murdered the Canaanites, Midianites and his other victims. It must be easy to justify the taking up of arms when you believe in the God of Abraham. Violence is a central theme of the Hebrew bible. nope he left that choice to me... So exactly how did he recommend you get a firearm @wally ? Maybe a better option would be to move ! You said you live in such a wonderful nation, yet you have to carry a gun for protection..... to me a wonderful nation is where you don't have to do this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 20:35:01 GMT -5
nope he left that choice to me... So exactly how did he recommend you get a firearm @wally ? Maybe a better option would be to move ! You said you live in such a wonderful nation, yet you have to carry a gun for protection..... to me a wonderful nation is where you don't have to do this. he said it was okay but becareful what you do with it...
every nation has violent crime in it America is no different still even given the crime America is the best nation there is to be in...wouldn't have it any other way.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 6, 2016 20:38:05 GMT -5
So exactly how did he recommend you get a firearm @wally ? Maybe a better option would be to move ! You said you live in such a wonderful nation, yet you have to carry a gun for protection..... to me a wonderful nation is where you don't have to do this. he said it was okay but becareful what you do with it...
every nation has violent crime in it America is no different still even given the crime America is the best nation there is to be in...wouldn't have it any other way.
Well that is a matter of opinion @wally ! There are a lot of people who would disagree with you ! As to God telling you to get a firearm, your response as a Christian could be taken as mockery.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 6, 2016 20:39:28 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 6, 2016 20:42:12 GMT -5
The USA has indeed a culture whereby shooting someone dead is a valid option. In the uk if there is a fatal shooting by the police firearms units then there is automatically an investigation into the circumstances. Shooting someone dead has to be a last resort here. A shooting by a member of the public regardless of the circumstances would automatically bring with it a police investigation. As Maryhig says, our police are not routinely armed (they have access to tasers and cs spray however) and the uk policy of policing by consent means that their approach is a little different to many police forces insofar that respect and restraint are required to be used. This ensures that the public do not fear the police and co-operate with them. Country people, of which I am one, tend to accept the need to own and use firearms. Living in a tower block or housing estate would tend to mean that you had no valid reason to own a firearm unless for business reasons, or you had written permission to shoot over a large area of land. You cannot just own a firearm for the sake of it over here. Plenty of professing people in the uk are legal gun owners and would tend to have the same approach to gun ownership as the rest of the general population. Based on my own experience many religious people in the uk tend, I find, to be inclined anti gun ownership rather than pro. Sadly I think the the USA (which is streets ahead in any statistics for gun crime among western nations) is probably beyond a reasonable approach to gun ownership. As put by others in another thread, fear of violence is a primary factor in a weapons purchase. A cycle of violence is going to be very hard if not impossible to break when violence is given particular coverage by the likes of Fox News with their famously unbiased reporting and talk shows and the likes of Alex Jones. The US average of 3.8 gun deaths per 100,000 people as a countywide average is amazingly low when statistics show that some US cities have gun violence rates which are equivalent to national averages of the more violent south American countries; New Orleans is comparable to Honduras 62.1 versus 68.4, or Detroit and El Salvador at 35.9 and 39.9 respectively. There are many more examples. I suppose fear sells and as a sales tactic it is effective if reprehensible. You're quite right. I was criticized recently for saying that Americans were a paranoid race of people -- with respect to how they deal with the rest of their own society they are indeed paranoid, relative to most other industrialized countries. The situation with gun ownership is evidence of that. But it's a vicious circle. No wonder they are afraid of everyone else because they've insisted on arming them to the teeth. How would anyone feel walking down a street with a gun pointing at you from every house you walk by. They're still somewhat primitive in their acceptance of democratic ideology. Personally, I believe having a firearm in this country does not reduce my risk of being assaulted one bit. I figure that no one who wants to kill me will give me any notice ahead of time. Far too many people get shot and killed while they're reaching for their "protection". You have to remember that your attacker is at least as nervous as you are, and you don't need to scare a nervous person with his finger on a trigger. One major problem is that people are so insecure that they can't bear the shame of not mounting a manly defense. I have no problem backing down -- it normally allows one to go home to his spouse and family, and support them for a few more years. My macho reputation will not feed or clothe anyone. Put your arms up, lay face down on the ground, run away, give them your money. Only a fanatic capitalist values his property more than his life and family. Americans aren't really into prevention, so they stick themselves with the social problems they won't take any responsible for preventing. Folks, don't take this personally. I'm just commenting on the preponderance of evidence for this state of the society. You are free to believe that all the problem people are not REAL Americans.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 20:48:28 GMT -5
he said it was okay but becareful what you do with it...
every nation has violent crime in it America is no different still even given the crime America is the best nation there is to be in...wouldn't have it any other way.
Well that is a matter of opinion @wally ! There are a lot of people who would disagree with you ! As to God telling you to get a firearm, your response as a Christian could be taken as mockery. you asked for an answer I gave it too you...there is no sense whining about it...
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 6, 2016 21:17:40 GMT -5
Well that is a matter of opinion @wally ! There are a lot of people who would disagree with you ! As to God telling you to get a firearm, your response as a Christian could be taken as mockery. you asked for an answer I gave it too you...there is no sense whining about it... Not whining @wally, just trying to make sense of you saying you live in the best place, but have to have a gun for protection, kind of contradicts itself.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 6, 2016 21:51:45 GMT -5
Yeah. People don't like to talk about prevention. People think that removing firearms is going to solve so many problems. But honestly, it won't change anything. Because we live in a world that is filled with angry people, selfish people, those who don't value human life, godless people, people lacking morality. But we know this. It's been this way for thousands of years. It's a heart problem. How do you fix it? Oh. Wait. It always goes back to Jesus. This is life on earth as we know it and there won't be any changes in the near future. Unless he's coming back very soon!! Remember, Peter (foolishly) responded that he had two swords, when Jesus was telling them that he would no longer be with them, so it must not be too anti-Christian to have something for self defense. (I nearly posted a picture earlier of 2 replicas of swords that would have been from that time period from my husbands stash when the verse was quoted before to be snarky, but I don't know that anyone would appreciate the humor.)
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gells
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Firearms
Feb 6, 2016 21:57:40 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by gells on Feb 6, 2016 21:57:40 GMT -5
To those who trust in god and believe in prayer, Why would you possess a firearm to protect self or loved ones? To do so informs you have doubts about your god's ability to respond to your requests and needs. Thank you joanna, my thoughts exactly ! Why would you ever vaccinate your child to protect them from potential illness? To do so informs you have doubts about your Gods ability to respond to your requests and needs. ? You still haven't responded to this idea. Ignoring it doesn't change it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 6, 2016 22:33:34 GMT -5
Yeah. People don't like to talk about prevention. People think that removing firearms is going to solve so many problems. But honestly, it won't change anything. Why does it work in other countries and it can't in the USA? By practicing pacifism. Do what I say and not what I do isn't working. American Christianity. The alleged Muslim doctrine. Of course not -- snarky isn't humor.
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Post by joanna on Feb 6, 2016 22:45:06 GMT -5
Exactly gells. None of the thousands of gods contrived by humans have proven able defenders against harm caused by disease or violence. In fact religiosity is a major cause of sectarian violence. Scientific based interventions such as vaccination programs eliminate or prevent disease. Ethics emanating from rational humanism negate sectarianism and empower individuals to apply reason rather than faith. Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanityHumans are innately narcissistic and cruel. Please consider the violence daily inflicted on billions of other sentient beings for human consumption by a majority who give no thought to the suffering of these vulnerable and defenseless beings. The potential for any society to be peaceful and compassionate can be assessed by the way it regards and treats those who cannot self-advocate. No country has ever been free from violence: it is the nature of the human animal. Religion aka sectarianism resulting from the allegiance to different gods is a catalyst for aggression and wars.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 6, 2016 23:01:12 GMT -5
Ah. I did not realize I was talking to atheists. "American Christianity." You mean the supposed angry Christians from America that speak the loudest? Oh, those. NVM. I can't speak for those.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 6, 2016 23:35:55 GMT -5
Ah. I did not realize I was talking to atheists. "American Christianity." You mean the supposed angry Christians from America that speak the loudest? Oh, those. NVM. I can't speak for those. Do you have a special way of talking to atheists? How do you talk to Christian non-Americans? Or were you meaning someone else? supposed angry Christians from AmericaDo you mean they're "thought" to be angry, of "expected" to be angry? Are they really angry, or are they just pretending to be angry? Or maybe you're one of those Christians who resents other Christians from using the name? What does NVM mean?
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 6, 2016 23:53:53 GMT -5
No special way of talking to atheists. Just can't ask atheists about trusting in a God they don't believe in, in different situations. Non-American Christians? Why would I speak to them differently than anyone else? I'm talking about the Christians that don't act like Christians. People that spew hate, but call themselves Christians? Is that who you are referencing when speaking about American Christians? I know that there are a lot of media outlets that make it sound like Christians just love trump. I actually don't know many that like him and I can't speak for those people who agree with the hate he spews. But if those are the Christians you are talking about, I honestly don't know how to speak for them. NVM means never mind.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 0:06:02 GMT -5
Thank you joanna, my thoughts exactly ! Why would you ever vaccinate your child to protect them from potential illness? To do so informs you have doubts about your Gods ability to respond to your requests and needs. ? You still haven't responded to this idea. Ignoring it doesn't change it. If you are talking to me gells, living in Australia, the idea of a "Christian" carrying a gun for protection is very foreign to me. Maybe I need to ask you the question I asked @wally, why don't the workers carry guns? I was raised to believe that a Christian had faith in God, I don't really see how children being vaccinated can be compared with people carrying guns with the intent to harm/kill another person? We can cherry pick verses out of the bible to suit our ideas no matter what they are !
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 0:09:17 GMT -5
The USA has indeed a culture whereby shooting someone dead is a valid option. In the uk if there is a fatal shooting by the police firearms units then there is automatically an investigation into the circumstances. Shooting someone dead has to be a last resort here. A shooting by a member of the public regardless of the circumstances would automatically bring with it a police investigation. As Maryhig says, our police are not routinely armed (they have access to tasers and cs spray however) and the uk policy of policing by consent means that their approach is a little different to many police forces insofar that respect and restraint are required to be used. This ensures that the public do not fear the police and co-operate with them. Country people, of which I am one, tend to accept the need to own and use firearms. Living in a tower block or housing estate would tend to mean that you had no valid reason to own a firearm unless for business reasons, or you had written permission to shoot over a large area of land. You cannot just own a firearm for the sake of it over here. Plenty of professing people in the uk are legal gun owners and would tend to have the same approach to gun ownership as the rest of the general population. Based on my own experience many religious people in the uk tend, I find, to be inclined anti gun ownership rather than pro. Sadly I think the the USA (which is streets ahead in any statistics for gun crime among western nations) is probably beyond a reasonable approach to gun ownership. As put by others in another thread, fear of violence is a primary factor in a weapons purchase. A cycle of violence is going to be very hard if not impossible to break when violence is given particular coverage by the likes of Fox News with their famously unbiased reporting and talk shows and the likes of Alex Jones. The US average of 3.8 gun deaths per 100,000 people as a countywide average is amazingly low when statistics show that some US cities have gun violence rates which are equivalent to national averages of the more violent south American countries; New Orleans is comparable to Honduras 62.1 versus 68.4, or Detroit and El Salvador at 35.9 and 39.9 respectively. There are many more examples. I suppose fear sells and as a sales tactic it is effective if reprehensible. You're quite right. I was criticized recently for saying that Americans were a paranoid race of people -- with respect to how they deal with the rest of their own society they are indeed paranoid, relative to most other industrialized countries. The situation with gun ownership is evidence of that. But it's a vicious circle. No wonder they are afraid of everyone else because they've insisted on arming them to the teeth. How would anyone feel walking down a street with a gun pointing at you from every house you walk by. They're still somewhat primitive in their acceptance of democratic ideology. Personally, I believe having a firearm in this country does not reduce my risk of being assaulted one bit. I figure that no one who wants to kill me will give me any notice ahead of time. Far too many people get shot and killed while they're reaching for their "protection". You have to remember that your attacker is at least as nervous as you are, and you don't need to scare a nervous person with his finger on a trigger. One major problem is that people are so insecure that they can't bear the shame of not mounting a manly defense. I have no problem backing down -- it normally allows one to go home to his spouse and family, and support them for a few more years. My macho reputation will not feed or clothe anyone. Put your arms up, lay face down on the ground, run away, give them your money. Only a fanatic capitalist values his property more than his life and family. Americans aren't really into prevention, so they stick themselves with the social problems they won't take any responsible for preventing. Folks, don't take this personally. I'm just commenting on the preponderance of evidence for this state of the society. You are free to believe that all the problem people are not REAL Americans. Thank you BobWilliston that explains a lot.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 7, 2016 0:33:33 GMT -5
Why would you ever vaccinate your child to protect them from potential illness? To do so informs you have doubts about your Gods ability to respond to your requests and needs. ? You still haven't responded to this idea. Ignoring it doesn't change it. If you are talking to me gells, living in Australia, the idea of a "Christian" carrying a gun for protection is very foreign to me. Maybe I need to ask you the question I asked @wally, why don't the workers carry guns? I was raised to believe that a Christian had faith in God, I don't really see how children being vaccinated can be compared with people carrying guns with the intent to harm/kill another person? We can cherry pick verses out of the bible to suit our ideas no matter what they are ! I know a Christian lady from Australia that says the same things about it as I do. That's the thing. Those that I know that have them, don't have intent to kill. It's just a security measure. My brothers carry them, and God willing, will never use them. They don't intend on using them. They don't expect to have to use them, but it's never taken for granted that they are safe at all times. But in a country where mass shootings have actually been prevented by civilians with guns?. If San Bernardino or the kindergarten class in New Hampshire could have been avoided by another person with a gun, wouldn't we have opted for it? Is it anti-Christian to save 25 children? Is there a better alternative? As for the vaccines, i'm not saying that one is as noble as the other. I'm just talking about the trusting in God logic behind it. If you don't agree with guns, that's fine. But don't say it's a lack of trust in God, if you use science to heal instead of just trusting that God's will be done. I'm not trying to be arbitrary here. I'm just trying to show the logic behind it is one in the same.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 0:39:48 GMT -5
Would be interested to know if the lady from Australia is one of the F&W ? There are plenty of people in Australia who have guns for hunting or who live on farms, but for protection.....maybe in some places in Sydney ( if they do have them it would be illegally) If they don't intent to kill why have a gun ?
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 7, 2016 0:44:43 GMT -5
No, she's not F&W. She would view it as a cult. Edited response above.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 7, 2016 0:49:14 GMT -5
I guess I'm using intent as plan, here. I suppose if they were in a dangerous situation and the need arose, they do intend to use it. But they don't think every morning as they place their gun on their hip, "I intend on killing someone today." As my husband speaks about guns, " never point at anything that you don't intend to kill."
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 1:09:04 GMT -5
If you are talking to me gells, living in Australia, the idea of a "Christian" carrying a gun for protection is very foreign to me. Maybe I need to ask you the question I asked @wally, why don't the workers carry guns? I was raised to believe that a Christian had faith in God, I don't really see how children being vaccinated can be compared with people carrying guns with the intent to harm/kill another person? We can cherry pick verses out of the bible to suit our ideas no matter what they are ! I know a Christian lady from Australia that says the same things about it as I do. That's the thing. Those that I know that have them, don't have intent to kill. It's just a security measure. My brothers carry them, and God willing, will never use them. They don't intend on using them. They don't expect to have to use them, but it's never taken for granted that they are safe at all times. But in a country where mass shootings have actually been prevented by civilians with guns?. If San Bernardino or the kindergarten class in New Hampshire could have been avoided by another person with a gun, wouldn't we have opted for it? Is it anti-Christian to save 25 children? Is there a better alternative? As for the vaccines, i'm not saying that one is as noble as the other. I'm just talking about the trusting in God logic behind it. If you don't agree with guns, that's fine. But don't say it's a lack of trust in God, if you use science to heal instead of just trusting that God's will be done. I'm not trying to be arbitrary here. I'm just trying to show the logic behind it is one in the same. The reason I said anything about trusting in God is because @wally is suppose to be a Christian, being raised in the F&W way I was lead to believe that Christians were suppose to trust in God not man. Now it seems that there is a big difference between the F&W in the US to Australia, but @wally will be quick to say the F&W are "the closest way" to what is right.... The workers don't carry guns, why is that ? Also, @wally is quick to have something to say about people being gay and use the bible to justify his ideas, but when it suits he uses the "worldly law" to justify his ideas. If this is how so-called Christians think, well it just confirms what a lot of brainwashing/indoctrination religion really is ! But I suppose when people put a book written by men how every many thousand years ago above all else that is what happens
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gells
Senior Member
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Post by gells on Feb 7, 2016 1:11:58 GMT -5
Ah. I am no longer with the F&W. There are a lot of things I don't know or understand! (Probably because the same verses that send them 2x2 says not to.) editing to add: I don't carry, so I was only speaking for others that do. Only guns in my house are long arms used for deer!
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 1:14:54 GMT -5
Ah. I am no longer with the F&W. There are a lot of things I don't know or understand! (Probably because the same verses that send them 2x2 says not to.) I agree with you there !
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 7, 2016 2:26:16 GMT -5
No special way of talking to atheists. Just can't ask atheists about trusting in a God they don't believe in, in different situations. Non-American Christians? Why would I speak to them differently than anyone else? I'm talking about the Christians that don't act like Christians. People that spew hate, but call themselves Christians? Is that who you are referencing when speaking about American Christians? I know that there are a lot of media outlets that make it sound like Christians just love trump. I actually don't know many that like him and I can't speak for those people who agree with the hate he spews. But if those are the Christians you are talking about, I honestly don't know how to speak for them. NVM means never mind. Yes, I know you're talking about Christians who don't act like Christians. That's a VERY common way for American Christians to talk about each other. That doesn't have anything at all to do with either Trump or spewing hate. It's about you sounding like you're one of the American Christians who won't recognize people as Christians if you don't approve of their behavior.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 7, 2016 4:33:32 GMT -5
If you are talking to me gells , living in Australia, the idea of a "Christian" carrying a gun for protection is very foreign to me. Maybe I need to ask you the question I asked @wally , why don't the workers carry guns? I was raised to believe that a Christian had faith in God, I don't really see how children being vaccinated can be compared with people carrying guns with the intent to harm/kill another person? We can cherry pick verses out of the bible to suit our ideas no matter what they are ! I know a Christian lady from Australia that says the same things about it as I do. That's the thing. Those that I know that have them, don't have intent to kill. It's just a security measure. My brothers carry them, and God willing, will never use them. They don't intend on using them. They don't expect to have to use them, but it's never taken for granted that they are safe at all times. But in a country where mass shootings have actually been prevented by civilians with guns?. If San Bernardino or the kindergarten class in New Hampshire could have been avoided by another person with a gun, wouldn't we have opted for it? Is it anti-Christian to save 25 children? Is there a better alternative? As for the vaccines, i'm not saying that one is as noble as the other. I'm just talking about the trusting in God logic behind it. If you don't agree with guns, that's fine. But don't say it's a lack of trust in God, if you use science to heal instead of just trusting that God's will be done. I'm not trying to be arbitrary here. I'm just trying to show the logic behind it is one in the same. Gells, what you are saying is an oxymoron if ever there was one. How can a person carry a gun for protection and not have an intent to use, to harm or to kill. May as well try frightening your local mugger with a wet bus ticket. Then there is this nonsense about if more people were armed then there would be less mass shootings. So far as I know this has never worked out and there is already loads of guns around.
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