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Post by bendle on Feb 7, 2016 6:21:59 GMT -5
I read this article on msn this morning. Apparently he was 'trained' in gun use and safety and used to go hunting with his father and grandfather. He has been sentenced to spend the rest of his childhood in detention but his family plan to appeal the judge's ruling- that sends the right message of course!!!
No mention at this point of any sanction for the owner of the shotgun that was used!!!!!
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Feb 7, 2016 6:22:35 GMT -5
This is very much a cultural issue. But there are some simple equations involved.
More guns = more people being shot.
More guns = more people feeling they need to have guns = vicious cycle = more people being shot.
In Australia, we have far fewer guns, far fewer guns deaths per head of population.
In America, there is a very long, foundational history of the right to bear arms, and nobody is willing to give up their guns because they are sure the bad guys would still have them. "We need to protect ourselves" is a constant and resounding cry, what from I can tell.
The only way you will have less guns in America is if you give them up. Few seem willing to do that. The culturally ingrained pattern (sadly, very strong on the part of the right-wing) is hard to reverse.
I'm glad we have far fewer guns and much less gun culture in Australia. I honestly don't know how it can be achieved in America given its history of bearing arms. Good on the brave souls there who are willing to not take up arms and want to change the culture.
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Post by bendle on Feb 7, 2016 6:24:09 GMT -5
he said it was okay but becareful what you do with it...
every nation has violent crime in it America is no different still even given the crime America is the best nation there is to be in...wouldn't have it any other way.
Well that is a matter of opinion @wally ! There are a lot of people who would disagree with you ! As to God telling you to get a firearm, your response as a Christian could be taken as mockery. Strongly disagree. Are you well travelled worldwide Wally to have formed that view or do you accept what the NRA tell you?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 12:23:42 GMT -5
Well that is a matter of opinion @wally ! There are a lot of people who would disagree with you ! As to God telling you to get a firearm, your response as a Christian could be taken as mockery. Strongly disagree. Are you well travelled worldwide Wally to have formed that view or do you accept what the NRA tell you? yes I've travelled the world(US Navy)(and on my own) and invariably the conversation turns to firearms and crime where ever I've been and people admit that their is violent crime in their respective countries to think otherwise is very naïve...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 12:29:28 GMT -5
Strongly disagree. Are you well travelled worldwide Wally to have formed that view or do you accept what the NRA tell you? yes I've travelled the world(US Navy)(and on my own) and invariably the conversation turns to firearms and crime where ever I've been and people admit that their is violent crime in their respective countries to think otherwise is very naïve...
You're the one that is naive. The gun death statistics are readily available from many different sources. Check into the facts versus your personal "impressions". You are correct that thievery and crime is a universal constant. But high gun deaths specifically are a phenomenon only in parts of the Third World and parts of the USA.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 12:30:35 GMT -5
yes I've travelled the world(US Navy)(and on my own) and invariably the conversation turns to firearms and crime where ever I've been and people admit that their is violent crime in their respective countries to think otherwise is very naïve...
You're the one that is naive. The gun death statistics are readily available from many different sources. Check into the facts versus your personal "impressions". You are correct that thievery and crime is a universal constant. But high gun deaths specifically are a phenomenon only in parts of the Third World and parts of the USA. I never said gun deaths I said violent crime you do know the difference don't you? nice try though...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 15:48:23 GMT -5
You're the one that is naive. The gun death statistics are readily available from many different sources. Check into the facts versus your personal "impressions". You are correct that thievery and crime is a universal constant. But high gun deaths specifically are a phenomenon only in parts of the Third World and parts of the USA. I never said gun deaths I said violent crime you do know the difference don't you? nice try though... Check violent crime stats then. No, there is no difference, statistically speaking. Best way to kill or hurt someone - use a gun. My point is that you should inform yourself instead of engaging in wishful thinking about the American crime situation. But then, why you should you be different from any other pistol-toting, Bible quoting American who doesn't want to be confused by the facts?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 15:54:06 GMT -5
I never said gun deaths I said violent crime you do know the difference don't you? nice try though... Check violent crime stats then. No, there is no difference, statistically speaking. Best way to kill or hurt someone - use a gun. My point is that you should inform yourself instead of engaging in wishful thinking about the American crime situation. But then, why you should you be different from any other pistol-toting, Bible quoting American who doesn't want to be confused by the facts? i know you want violence to be just a gun thing but that's simply not the facts of the matter again to think so shows either ignorance or being naïve on the matter...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 16:15:30 GMT -5
Check violent crime stats then. No, there is no difference, statistically speaking. Best way to kill or hurt someone - use a gun. My point is that you should inform yourself instead of engaging in wishful thinking about the American crime situation. But then, why you should you be different from any other pistol-toting, Bible quoting American who doesn't want to be confused by the facts? i know you want violence to be just a gun thing but that's simply not the facts of the matter again to think so shows either ignorance or being naïve on the matter... What's your point? What are the "facts of the matter" which you refer to, but don't provide. Knifings, bombs, grenades? They happen, gun crimes track violent crimes very closely, if you'd care to look it up. Here are some interesting stats. Homicides per 100,000 per year USA 3.8 India 3.5 Canada 1.4 UK 1.0 Hong Kong .9 Gun deaths - including accidental deaths and justifiable homicide - per 100,000 per year USA 10.64 Canada 1.97 India .28 UK .23 Hong Kong .03 Yes, in countries like India and Hong Kong, guns are not used in homicides, but their homicide rate is far lower than that of the USA. The big shocker for me is the number of accidental and other gun-related deaths in the USA, which far outstrip homicides.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 16:22:07 GMT -5
i know you want violence to be just a gun thing but that's simply not the facts of the matter again to think so shows either ignorance or being naïve on the matter... What's your point? What are the "facts of the matter" which you refer to, but don't provide. Knifings, bombs, grenades? They happen, gun crimes track violent crimes very closely, if you'd care to look it up. the facts of the matter are all gun crime is violent but not all violence is a gun crime you should know this your an adult...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 16:31:00 GMT -5
What's your point? What are the "facts of the matter" which you refer to, but don't provide. Knifings, bombs, grenades? They happen, gun crimes track violent crimes very closely, if you'd care to look it up. the facts of the matter are all gun crime is violent but not all violence is a gun crime you should know this your an adult... Something I never said. That's just a little fantasy gun control nuts have. They think that if guns are taken away that they'll have the same homicide rate but with knives or the like. It's true that countries without a gun culture have more knifings, but they have far fewer homicides. Human passion, anger and the urge to kill is somewhat of a constant, but in a gun culture the evil spirits manifest themselves in far more killings.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 16:40:00 GMT -5
the facts of the matter are all gun crime is violent but not all violence is a gun crime you should know this your an adult... Something I never said. That's just a little fantasy gun control nuts have. They think that if guns are taken away that they'll have the same homicide rate but with knives or the like. It's true that countries without a gun culture have more knifings, but they have far fewer homicides. Human passion, anger and the urge to kill is somewhat of a constant, but in a gun culture the evil spirits manifest themselves in far more killings. if you had actually read what I said and then what Roselyn and bendle said you would have seen I said violence is in every country which you all 3 promptly dismissed and tried to make it a gun issue instead of a violence issue...
do you now agree there is violence in every country? cause if you don't were back to you being naïve or ignorant...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 16:48:04 GMT -5
Something I never said. That's just a little fantasy gun control nuts have. They think that if guns are taken away that they'll have the same homicide rate but with knives or the like. It's true that countries without a gun culture have more knifings, but they have far fewer homicides. Human passion, anger and the urge to kill is somewhat of a constant, but in a gun culture the evil spirits manifest themselves in far more killings. if you had actually read what I said and then what Roselyn and bendle said you would have seen I said violence is in every country which you all 3 promptly dismissed and tried to make it a gun issue instead of a violence issue...
do you now agree there is violence in every country? cause if you don't were back to you being naïve or ignorant...
There is no Western country as violent as the USA. There is no Western country where your safety and life is in jeopardy to the extent that it is in the USA. You're still relatively safe, of course. Next year in your country out of 100,000 people only 10.5 people will die from gunshot wounds and 99,989.5 will live. But here in Canada the number is 1.97, one fifth as many. The difference of 8 deaths or so is not made up by knifings, bombs or other weapons. Our overall homicide rate considering all weapons is still just a bit more than one third of yours. (1.4/3.8) Basically, the USA looks stupid to almost every Canadian, Australian and European. Actually more than half of Americans think it's stupid too. Most Americans aren't stupid of course, but it seems that the stupid ones have too much say.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 16:54:29 GMT -5
if you had actually read what I said and then what Roselyn and bendle said you would have seen I said violence is in every country which you all 3 promptly dismissed and tried to make it a gun issue instead of a violence issue...
do you now agree there is violence in every country? cause if you don't were back to you being naïve or ignorant...
There is no Western country as violent as the USA. There is no Western country where your safety and life is in jeopardy to the extent that it is in the USA. You're still relatively safe, of course. Next year in your country out of 100,000 people only 10.5 people will die from gunshot wounds and 99,989.5 will live. But here in Canada the number is 1.97, one fifth as many. The difference of 8 deaths or so is not made up by knifings, bombs or other weapons. Our overall homicide rate considering all weapons is still just a bit more than one third of yours. (1.4/3.8) Basically, the USA looks stupid to almost every Canadian, Australian and European. Actually more than half of Americans think it's stupid too. Most Americans aren't stupid of course, but it seems that the stupid ones have too much say. I see you refused to answer the question, that's okay though we all have our faults we have to live with...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 17:03:36 GMT -5
There is no Western country as violent as the USA. There is no Western country where your safety and life is in jeopardy to the extent that it is in the USA. You're still relatively safe, of course. Next year in your country out of 100,000 people only 10.5 people will die from gunshot wounds and 99,989.5 will live. But here in Canada the number is 1.97, one fifth as many. The difference of 8 deaths or so is not made up by knifings, bombs or other weapons. Our overall homicide rate considering all weapons is still just a bit more than one third of yours. (1.4/3.8) Basically, the USA looks stupid to almost every Canadian, Australian and European. Actually more than half of Americans think it's stupid too. Most Americans aren't stupid of course, but it seems that the stupid ones have too much say. I see you refused to answer the question, that's okay though we all have our faults we have to live with... Didn't I say a few posts ago that violence is a human constant? Of course, there is violence in every country. Why is it so important to you that I recognize that? But there is MORE violence in the USA because of guns. Way, way more.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 17:06:09 GMT -5
I see you refused to answer the question, that's okay though we all have our faults we have to live with... Didn't I say a few posts ago that violence is a human constant? Of course, there is violence in every country. Why is it so important that I recognize that? because if you had been paying attention that's what the secondary debate with Roselyn and bendle was about before you jumped in...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 17:15:03 GMT -5
Didn't I say a few posts ago that violence is a human constant? Of course, there is violence in every country. Why is it so important that I recognize that? because if you had been paying attention that's what the secondary debate with Roselyn and bendle was about before you jumped in... Tell me if I am misunderstanding you, and never mind Roselyn and bendle. You said that there is violent crime in every country, and I think your point is that the USA is not so very different than other countries with respect to violent crime, as opposed to gun crime. I did turn the question to gun crime because to me, gun crime and violent crime correlate. But let's talk about violent crime then. There is just way more VIOLENT CRIME in the USA than in any other Western country. If you don't want to look at gun death statistics then look at overall homicide statistics, which I presented in a post above. But even more shocking are the accidental deaths caused by guns, which are far more than those in any other Western country. It doesn't matter how you cook the broth, your way or my way, looking at the actual numbers indicate that the USA has a serious problem with guns.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 7, 2016 17:28:23 GMT -5
because if you had been paying attention that's what the secondary debate with Roselyn and bendle was about before you jumped in... Tell me if I am misunderstanding you, and never mind Roselyn and bendle. You said that there is violent crime in every country, and I think your point is that the USA is not so very different than other countries with respect to violent crime, as opposed to gun crime. I did turn the question to gun crime because to me, gun crime and violent crime correlate. But let's talk about violent crime then. There is just way more VIOLENT CRIME in the USA than in any other Western country. If you don't want to look at gun death statistics then look at overall homicide statistics, which I presented in a post above. But even more shocking are the accidental deaths caused by guns, which are far more than those in any other Western country. It doesn't matter how you cook the broth, your way or my way, looking at the actual numbers indicate that the USA has a serious problem with guns. To too many people there are only two numbers: 1 = me, 2 = everyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 18:01:33 GMT -5
because if you had been paying attention that's what the secondary debate with Roselyn and bendle was about before you jumped in... Tell me if I am misunderstanding you, and never mind Roselyn and bendle. You said that there is violent crime in every country, and I think your point is that the USA is not so very different than other countries with respect to violent crime, as opposed to gun crime. I did turn the question to gun crime because to me, gun crime and violent crime correlate. But let's talk about violent crime then. There is just way more VIOLENT CRIME in the USA than in any other Western country. If you don't want to look at gun death statistics then look at overall homicide statistics, which I presented in a post above. But even more shocking are the accidental deaths caused by guns, which are far more than those in any other Western country. It doesn't matter how you cook the broth, your way or my way, looking at the actual numbers indicate that the USA has a serious problem with guns. you mean like how violent crime soared in the UK and Australia when they implemented gun control? there were many stories on the internet about that after it happened.
under reporting by gov'ts is nothing new its called propaganda...
there are about 500-1000 accidental deaths by firearms by people under 25 each year given that we have 300+ million plus firearms that's nothing i'm surprised there are not more...and before you say it yes everyone is a tragedy
by comparison 9,900 people were killed by drunk drivers each year and yet we don't ban cars or alcohol nor do we check with breathalizers on each car before a person drives(which could be done) nor do we do background checks on potential drivers...another fact nearly 100,000 die each year from alcohol induced diseases and yet we don't ban alcohol...another fact we've aborted about 50 million babies since the 1960's enough said?
so save the concern for life roleplaying I don't buy it...
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 18:17:39 GMT -5
Tell me if I am misunderstanding you, and never mind Roselyn and bendle. You said that there is violent crime in every country, and I think your point is that the USA is not so very different than other countries with respect to violent crime, as opposed to gun crime. I did turn the question to gun crime because to me, gun crime and violent crime correlate. But let's talk about violent crime then. There is just way more VIOLENT CRIME in the USA than in any other Western country. If you don't want to look at gun death statistics then look at overall homicide statistics, which I presented in a post above. But even more shocking are the accidental deaths caused by guns, which are far more than those in any other Western country. It doesn't matter how you cook the broth, your way or my way, looking at the actual numbers indicate that the USA has a serious problem with guns. you mean like how violent crime soared in the UK and Australia when they implemented gun control? there were many stories on the internet about that after it happened.
under reporting by gov'ts is nothing new its called propaganda...
there are about 500-1000 accidental deaths by firearms by people under 25 each year given that we have 300+ million plus firearms that's nothing i'm surprised there are not more...and before you say it yes everyone is a tragedy
by comparison 9,900 people were killed by drunk drivers each year and yet we don't ban cars or alcohol nor do we check with breathalizers on each car before a person drives(which could be done) nor do we do background checks on potential drivers...another fact nearly 100,000 die each year from alcohol induced diseases and yet we don't ban alcohol...another fact we've aborted about 50 million babies since the 1960's enough said?
so save the concern for life roleplaying I don't buy it...
If you sincerely believe all that crap there is no hope for you, other than that brighter minds hopefully will prevail and save people like you from themselves. In Canada we have fewer gun deaths. The police also routinely stop all cars on a given road and check for booze. We also wear seatbelts, and generally cars have their headlights on all the time. The USA does none of those things, from what I understand. Oblivious ....
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 20:12:57 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 20:33:53 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 20:49:27 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 20:50:38 GMT -5
And there are plenty of websites that say the opposite @wally !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 20:54:08 GMT -5
And there are plenty of websites that say the opposite @wally ! I gave you 2 reliable sources for information one from your own country I might add. in fact in a previous post you used AIC to try and refute something I said to no avail...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 20:59:33 GMT -5
that is a poorly written article even for snopes....
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 7, 2016 21:18:17 GMT -5
And there are plenty of websites that say the opposite @wally ! I gave you 2 reliable sources for information one from your own country I might add. in fact in a previous post you used AIC to try and refute something I said to no avail... "The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968" www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 7, 2016 21:50:34 GMT -5
And there are plenty of websites that say the opposite @wally ! I gave you 2 reliable sources for information one from your own country I might add. in fact in a previous post you used AIC to try and refute something I said to no avail... A BBC article from 2001? Are you kidding? Homicide rates across the western world, including the USA, have been decreasing for more than a decade. In the UK they went up from 97 to around 2002, and have been declining ever since. The year over year trend in crime rates are subject to many different factors. The basic fact is that the UK has never had a proliferation of handguns before or after the handgun ban. Homicides in Australia are also on a declining trend. It's right on the AIC site that you linked. Robberies are also down. Sexual assaults are up ... I don't believe gun control will help on that one. In Australia, assaults are increasing but deaths are decreasing. So the population is more prone to exert violence but fewer people are dying as a result. I wonder why.
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