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Post by jondough on Dec 18, 2015 18:34:14 GMT -5
Yes, when you replace all the ones you judge to be going to Hell with the actual people you are talking about. People with names. People that love God. it kind of changes the picture, doesn't it?
Unless of course you are saying that there are now exceptions to your rule that if they don't fellowship with you, that they are not saved.
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Post by jondough on Dec 18, 2015 19:13:40 GMT -5
Yes, when you replace all the ones you judge to be going to Hell with the actual people you are talking about. People with names. People that love God. it kind of changes the picture, doesn't it? Unless of course you are saying that there are now exceptions to your rule that if they don't fellowship with you, that they are not saved. You should ask me the question and let me explain it myself, but don't put your words in my mouth and say I believe this and that about so and so.... I know you wouldn't want me and others do that to you, right? I can speak, write for myself, I don't need your help on this.
I have. We have had many conversations about it. You have made it quite clear your stance on exclusivity. So much so that you thought that I should leave the fellowship due to my non-exclusivity.
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Post by jondough on Dec 18, 2015 19:44:49 GMT -5
I have. We have had many conversations about it. You have made it quite clear your stance on exclusivity. So much so that you thought that I should leave the fellowship due to my non-exclusivity. I just pointed what Jesus and the apostles teach... it is up to them to make up their minds... If someone asked my opinion, thoughts, ideas I will share it. Next time, you should say this, how about asking Nathan what he thinks about so and so... try not to put your own words in my mouth. I am a big boy now, I can do thing for myself, I don't need you to do the work for me.
In 1907 the workers and the friends put John Long out of the ministry/fellowship for his non-exclusive belief. A few years ago, Brandon from Texas was asked NOT to speak of his non-exclusive belief, William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 in the Sunday morning meetings, he then eventually left the fellowship and joined his girlfriend/wife church on his own free will.
No, it is NOT OK for the friends to join any church they want, or as long as anyone preaches the gospel then it OK to listen to them, they are the same as the workers, this type/kind of non-exclusive thinking is VERY scary/dangerous to our fellowship/ministry. If any worker thinks and believes in this type of Non-exclusive teaching he or she will ASK to leave the work ASAP.
By the way, my Valiant Thor belief and his mission to help humanity is NOTHING compare to Exclusive thinking/teaching. I don't speak about Valiant Thor in my Sunday morning meetings, is NOT the place for it. I don't mind sharing it after the meetings if I was asked. Sunday morning is ALL about God the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord God and Savior, and our teacher/comforter Holy Spirit, encouraging one another in the Faith.
You have gone full circle again to your evasiveness. No one said anything about Friends going to other churches. Exclusive simple means that you think that all other Christians that don't go to your Fellowship/Church are not saved. I'm not going around this merry-go-round with you again to finally get you to admit this. If you don't believe this, then just say so. But you have already made it clear that this is what you believe. Go find your own post. I'm not putting words in your mouth. You said it. If someone says "all football players are going to Hell", wouldn't that mean that he is saying Peyton Manning is going to Hell? That isn't putting words in their mouth, its just putting someones name to what they said. Well, you have stated that all people that do not fellowship with us are not saved. Just because you put a name on one of these people, doesn't change a thing, and its not putting words in your mouth for the same reason. And just because you say you "respect" them, also doesn't change a thing.
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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2015 23:18:19 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: ~~ The sincere Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims will come and join with the 2x2 fellowship, because many of the friends and workers who like myself came from other churches also.
Nathan, sincere Christians are leaving the 2x2 fellowship. They will leave and keep leaving if they are truly sincere about their relationship with God. Very few in meetings have come from other churches. The majority have grown up in it.
FYI: Valiant Thor did not attend the 2x2 fellowship.
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 0:40:44 GMT -5
You should ask me the question and let me explain it myself, but don't put your words in my mouth and say I believe this and that about so and so.... I know you wouldn't want me and others do that to you, right? I can speak, write for myself, I don't need your help on this.
I have. We have had many conversations about it. You have made it quite clear your stance on exclusivity. So much so that you thought that I should leave the fellowship due to my non-exclusivity. Jondough ~ Don't feel bad if you are in the minority within the 2x2's due to your non-exclusive beliefs. I've been there myself and was shunned for similar views among other things. Personally, non-conformists don't seem to fit in well anywhere within an exclusive organization, due to having an open-mind regarding their fellowman. Some folks just love that "specialness" that goes along with membership within such an exclusive group or religious organization. Namely, EXCLUSIVITY is the GLUE that holds them altogether! Take it away and they would be like everyone else and have nothing to boast about.
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 0:53:49 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: ~~ The sincere Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims will come and join with the 2x2 fellowship, because many of the friends and workers who like myself came from other churches also. Nathan, sincere Christians are leaving the 2x2 fellowship. They will leave and keep leaving if they are truly sincere about their relationship with God. Very few in meetings have come from other churches. The majority have grown up in it. Those who are raised in the truth like the children of Israel in the Old Testament... Majority didn't appreciate or knew how fortunate they are in Knowing the truth and Way of Yahweh God.... Likewise, with those raised in the Truth and Way of Jesus. Paul wrote in II Thess 2... Because they receive NOT the love of the truth, that they might be SAVED. And for this reason God shall send them powerful delusion, that they should believe a LIE, that they all be damned who believed NOT the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. FYI: Valiant Thor did not attend the 2x2 fellowship. Valiant Thor is the guardian angel Order. ALL of the good angels had made their choice long, long time ago in choosing or standing with Christ as their Lord God Savior instead with Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels. The good Guardian angels are SAVED already, they don't need to attend 2x2 fellowship. Nathan ~ So Valiant Thor doesn't need to hear the Truth from the mouth of the workers, because he's a guardian angel who is saved already and doesn't need to attend the 2x2 fellowship meetings? What amazes me is that the 2x2's have not endorsed Valiant Thor yet, although he has played such a major role in the fellowship since the 1940's. Do you think the F&W's missed the mark on this one? Perhaps you need to update them regarding their history and Valiant Thor's connection?
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Post by jondough on Dec 19, 2015 9:15:19 GMT -5
I have. We have had many conversations about it. You have made it quite clear your stance on exclusivity. So much so that you thought that I should leave the fellowship due to my non-exclusivity. Jondough ~ Don't feel bad if you are in the minority within the 2x2's due to your non-exclusive beliefs. I've been there myself and was shunned for similar views among other things. Personally, non-conformists don't seem to fit in well anywhere within an exclusive organization, due to having an open-mind regarding their fellowman. Some folks just love that "specialness" that goes along with membership within such an exclusive group or religious organization. Namely, EXCLUSIVITY is the GLUE that holds them altogether! Take it away and they would be like everyone else and have nothing to boast about. I don't feel bad at all, and I get along great with everyone. I'm not ignorant enough to try to force my thinking on everyone in my testimonies. That would be useless. But here, we discuss things like this, and it's good for me. Discussing stuff like this with people like Nathan exposes it for what it is, and confirms to me how ridiculous this mind-set is. I completely disagree that "it's the glue that keeps us together". Exclusive thinking is completely unnecessary. Get rid of it, and it only means that when you talk to other Christians, that you can talk to them like a Brother or Sister, not an "outsider', or as some like to call them "a quack". It only takes away our self righteousness. That is a very good thing. It only means that we don't judge other Christians like Jesus commanded. That is a good thing. It is NOT the glue that keeps us together. F&W are together for fellowship and encouragement, as well as teaching and learning. We get together to break bread and remember Christ. It has nothing to do with finding the wrong in others, or judging everyone else to be wrong. That is just a self righteous mindset that only damages who we are. Also, there are more non-exclusive 2X2s than most realize. Most everyone that has examined the thinking honestly and for what it is, putting away the mindset to "not question", has come to the conclusion that it's absurd.
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Post by xna on Dec 19, 2015 9:37:44 GMT -5
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Post by jondough on Dec 19, 2015 9:41:17 GMT -5
I'm going to share something that I think is really great and encouraging. I will have to be evasive in the particulars because I'm not sure how open this person is to sharing with everyone. I don't think he would have a problem with it, but I haven't asked him.
My wife and I are very good friends with one of the owners of a certain convention grounds. A couple of months ago we were informed that he was out here for a particular reason - for around two to three weeks. We called him, and he found he didn't have a way to get around at the time. We asked him if he wanted us to pick him up and take him to Sunday morning meeting. He told us not to worry about it, he was going to just go to attend a small church that was near by. It was last minute and he didn't want us to go through the trouble. We went and visited him a few days after that, and he couldn't stop talking about the sweet fellowship that he had with those people. He actually was crying when talking about it. He loved singing hymns with them even though he didn't know many of them. He ended up fellowshipping with them for the rest of his stay here.
It was just another confirmation to us (and to him) that it is Christ that binds us together. How sweet it is that we have Brothers and Sisters in Christ everywhere! How sad it is to condemn these people as wrong and not part of his wonderful family. I'm glad that it is only God who can make that decision.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 9:58:40 GMT -5
I'm going to share something that I think is really great and encouraging. I will have to be evasive in the particulars because I'm not sure how open this person is to sharing with everyone. I don't think he would have a problem with it, but I haven't asked him. My wife and I are very good friends with one of the owners of a certain convention grounds. A couple of months ago we were informed that he was out here for a particular reason - for around two to three weeks. We called him, and he found he didn't have a way to get around at the time. We asked him if he wanted us to pick him up and take him to Sunday morning meeting. He told us not to worry about it, he was going to just go to attend a small church that was near by. It was last minute and he didn't want us to go through the trouble. We went and visited him a few days after that, and he couldn't stop talking about the sweet fellowship that he had with those people. He actually was crying when talking about it. He loved singing hymns with them even though he didn't know many of them. He ended up fellowshipping with them for the rest of his stay here. It was just another confirmation to us (and to him) that it is Christ that binds us together. How sweet it is that we have Brothers and Sisters in Christ everywhere! How sad it is to condemn these people as wrong and not part of his wonderful family. I'm glad that it is only God who can make that decision. That is a great story, jondough, thanks for sharing! This might be kind of a personal question, but...how did you come around to your non-exclusoive ways of thinking? Was there a certain thought process that got you there? Have you always had that mindset? It was a process for me, of at least 5 years. Are there others in your area with the same mind-set that you talk to about it? There were several other families in our area with that mind-set that we met with, but they all moved away. It was disheartening to realize that everyone else we fellowshipped with were very close-minded...made it feel like I had to edit what I shared in the meeting because I didn't want it to seem like I was preaching AT them, but I knew we weren't all on the same page with our beliefs. Which led to us finding a new place to worship. Anyway, my family is VERY exclusive and close-minded and have taken it really hard that we left. They will hardly even talk to me about why we left or what we're doing now or any kind of spiritual conversation at all. Not sure if they really don't care, or if they're afraid that talking to us will make our beliefs rub off on them. Although they have told me they don't see the good in talking to us because we're not going to change their minds and they don't think they could change ours either. I in no way want to convince them to leave meetings like we did...that's not my goal and I would never try to do that to anyone. If that is something God leads them to do, or doesn't, that is completely between Him and them. However, I would like to talk to them about their exclusive beliefs...I don't know that that there is anything I could say to convince them as clearly that is something God will have to work out, but I was just curious what got you to that place.
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 10:20:20 GMT -5
Jondough ~ Don't feel bad if you are in the minority within the 2x2's due to your non-exclusive beliefs. I've been there myself and was shunned for similar views among other things. Personally, non-conformists don't seem to fit in well anywhere within an exclusive organization, due to having an open-mind regarding their fellowman. Some folks just love that "specialness" that goes along with membership within such an exclusive group or religious organization. Namely, EXCLUSIVITY is the GLUE that holds them altogether! Take it away and they would be like everyone else and have nothing to boast about. I don't feel bad at all, and I get along great with everyone. I'm not ignorant enough to try to force my thinking on everyone in my testimonies. That would be useless. But here, we discuss things like this, and it's good for me. Discussing stuff like this with people like Nathan exposes it for what it is, and confirms to me how ridiculous this mind-set is. I completely disagree that "it's the glue that keeps us together". Exclusive thinking is completely unnecessary. Get rid of it, and it only means that when you talk to other Christians, that you can talk to them like a Brother or Sister, not an "outsider', or as some like to call them "a quack". It only takes away our self righteousness. That is a very good thing. It only means that we don't judge other Christians like Jesus commanded. That is a good thing. It is NOT the glue that keeps us together. F&W are together for fellowship and encouragement, as well as teaching and learning. We get together to break bread and remember Christ. It has nothing to do with finding the wrong in others, or judging everyone else to be wrong. That is just a self righteous mindset that only damages who we are. Also, there are more non-exclusive 2X2s than most realize. Most everyone that has examined the thinking honestly and for what it is, putting away the mindset to "not question", has come to the conclusion that it's absurd. Jondough ~ I just want to tell you how much I appreciated your post and your honesty. I know you are non-exclusive and deeply admire you for taking that stand within the 2x2's. However, if you re-read my post again, you will see that I referred to "some folks" who actually relish in that closed-minded and exclusive mindset.
Perhaps you are in a meeting where there is more freedom of expression than is found in other meetings due to folks who share your point of view? However, I have known more than a few friends in my past who shared that narrow-minded mindset within the 2x2's and boasted of their "specialness" in meetings. It really turned me off as I feel it does the same for you! In fact, just like Beth, it contributed to my leaving the meetings and eventually finding a church where I could be true to myself and share like precious faith with other Christians without this wall of separation.
However, Beth's comment seems to relay best what I was trying to point out in the first place regarding the walls that go up when you leave the 2x2's due to this exclusive mindset. It usually makes it necessary for you to critique your testimony to fit in with the rest. That wouldn't represent being true to yourself or others, if you had to "fudge it" to fit in with others in your group, don't you agree?
Beth shared...
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Post by jondough on Dec 19, 2015 13:18:43 GMT -5
I'm going to share something that I think is really great and encouraging. I will have to be evasive in the particulars because I'm not sure how open this person is to sharing with everyone. I don't think he would have a problem with it, but I haven't asked him. My wife and I are very good friends with one of the owners of a certain convention grounds. A couple of months ago we were informed that he was out here for a particular reason - for around two to three weeks. We called him, and he found he didn't have a way to get around at the time. We asked him if he wanted us to pick him up and take him to Sunday morning meeting. He told us not to worry about it, he was going to just go to attend a small church that was near by. It was last minute and he didn't want us to go through the trouble. We went and visited him a few days after that, and he couldn't stop talking about the sweet fellowship that he had with those people. He actually was crying when talking about it. He loved singing hymns with them even though he didn't know many of them. He ended up fellowshipping with them for the rest of his stay here. It was just another confirmation to us (and to him) that it is Christ that binds us together. How sweet it is that we have Brothers and Sisters in Christ everywhere! How sad it is to condemn these people as wrong and not part of his wonderful family. I'm glad that it is only God who can make that decision. That is a great story, jondough, thanks for sharing! This might be kind of a personal question, but...how did you come around to your non-exclusoive ways of thinking? Was there a certain thought process that got you there? Have you always had that mindset? It was a process for me, of at least 5 years. Are there others in your area with the same mind-set that you talk to about it? There were several other families in our area with that mind-set that we met with, but they all moved away. It was disheartening to realize that everyone else we fellowshipped with were very close-minded...made it feel like I had to edit what I shared in the meeting because I didn't want it to seem like I was preaching AT them, but I knew we weren't all on the same page with our beliefs. Which led to us finding a new place to worship. Anyway, my family is VERY exclusive and close-minded and have taken it really hard that we left. They will hardly even talk to me about why we left or what we're doing now or any kind of spiritual conversation at all. Not sure if they really don't care, or if they're afraid that talking to us will make our beliefs rub off on them. Although they have told me they don't see the good in talking to us because we're not going to change their minds and they don't think they could change ours either. I in no way want to convince them to leave meetings like we did...that's not my goal and I would never try to do that to anyone. If that is something God leads them to do, or doesn't, that is completely between Him and them. However, I would like to talk to them about their exclusive beliefs...I don't know that that there is anything I could say to convince them as clearly that is something God will have to work out, but I was just curious what got you to that place. Hi Beth, I can completely relate with what you have explained about your family not wanting to talk about it. Many won't. I tried to broach the subject with my in-laws over Thanksgiving. My father-in-law started to get into it with me, then my mother-in-law shut him down quickly. I think there are several reasons for them not wanting to talk about it. 1. It's pretty hard to defend this exclusive thinking. Check out Nathan's attempt. It's much easier to just be silent and not try to defend it. 2. They can get pretty upset about their own family questioning. They would rather not be emotionally stirred like this. 3. Many times, arguing religion is like arguing politics. You get nowhere. No one is any further convinced after you are done, and everyone is upset. In regards to how my wife and I became non-exlusive; I was B&R. I didn't profess till I was 21. Somewhat of a rebel during my younger years. But even so, I never questioned whether the Truth was the "one true way". I always "knew" it was. I was going to Hell unless I professed. So I professed at 21 with the exclusive mind set like I was raised. I got married, had kids. Still exclusive. Then, when my oldest boy played sports in high school, there was this family that there was obviously something special about them. They had a special needs son, but they just had a glow of joy about them. Sure enough, they were Christians, and lived for it. We got to know them. They told us how every so many years they put together a fund raiser, and a whole bunch of them go down to a 3rd world country and build a well for the poor. They talk about it like we talk about convention, or something even more special. My wife and I talked about that family many times just agreeing that there was no way that they did not have a relationship with God. We felt completely connected to them the same way we feel connected to people in our own Sunday morning meeting. This really opened our eyes up to how wrong exclusivity is. There are others that we have found that same connection. I even have family on my Dad's side (he is not B&R) that I have always felt that there is no way they don't have a relationship with God. I know so even more now. So this is how our road to non-exclusivity happened. Once I came here on TMB, it has confirmed more than ever that exclusivity is just ridiculous. Some of the worse behaving people I have seen here are professing people, and some of the best have been non-professing. Of course there are good and bad of both. I have gotten to know some really neat people both professing and non-professing here. Being non-exclusive only causes you to realize so much more blessing and joy of being part of such a great family.
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Post by blandie on Dec 19, 2015 13:24:17 GMT -5
Anyway, my family is VERY exclusive and close-minded and have taken it really hard that we left. They will hardly even talk to me about why we left or what we're doing now or any kind of spiritual conversation at all. Not sure if they really don't care, or if they're afraid that talking to us will make our beliefs rub off on them. Although they have told me they don't see the good in talking to us because we're not going to change their minds and they don't think they could change ours either. I in no way want to convince them to leave meetings like we did...that's not my goal and I would never try to do that to anyone. If that is something God leads them to do, or doesn't, that is completely between Him and them. However, I would like to talk to them about their exclusive beliefs...I don't know that that there is anything I could say to convince them as clearly that is something God will have to work out, but I was just curious what got you to that place. I suppose theres always been a few not exclusives around and most I knew eventually left the meetings. Like I think I mentioned before there were a lot of youngsters that seemed non-exclusives and didn't toe the line even 40 or 50 years ago and once they got older and married and started families I watched those same people either change to very exclusive or move out of the meetings completely. Because of that open-exclusive cycle I'm not as optimistic that real change is happening among the youngsters today just like I also remember all the talk and promises that 'things will loosen up once the older generation of workers pass on' - and 2-3 generations of them have gone and the same issues haven't been addressed. More common were those who soft-peddled the exclusiveness in various ways - they were pleased to tell how much they appreciated the spiritual leanings of others and were sure that god was drawing them to the meetings tho there was always the reservation that those folks hadn't quite gotten the revelation of the ONE TRUE WAY by professing and sadness or even tears when they didn't stand when the gospel meetings were tested or if they didn't show any interest in the gospel meeting invites. Unlike Jondough's friend few of this sort would have EVER set foot into a church building unless it was possibly to attend a wedding or funeral - and even then it would provide ammo for criticism of having buildings and false ways etc. That sort of attitude was acceptable but those who expressed true non-exclusiveness would get talked about among the friends with sad shakes of the head - they hadn't quite got the revelation or they weren't quite willing for the true way or they were in danger of falling away and how sad it was that they aren't as hearty and want to go their own way and so forth. Yeah too about exclusives shutting down any conversation that drifts into beliefs and it seems close relatives take an even harder stance maybe hoping that you'll get back your revelation once you've had your fling in the worldly ways.
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Post by jondough on Dec 19, 2015 13:37:29 GMT -5
I don't feel bad at all, and I get along great with everyone. I'm not ignorant enough to try to force my thinking on everyone in my testimonies. That would be useless. But here, we discuss things like this, and it's good for me. Discussing stuff like this with people like Nathan exposes it for what it is, and confirms to me how ridiculous this mind-set is. I completely disagree that "it's the glue that keeps us together". Exclusive thinking is completely unnecessary. Get rid of it, and it only means that when you talk to other Christians, that you can talk to them like a Brother or Sister, not an "outsider', or as some like to call them "a quack". It only takes away our self righteousness. That is a very good thing. It only means that we don't judge other Christians like Jesus commanded. That is a good thing. It is NOT the glue that keeps us together. F&W are together for fellowship and encouragement, as well as teaching and learning. We get together to break bread and remember Christ. It has nothing to do with finding the wrong in others, or judging everyone else to be wrong. That is just a self righteous mindset that only damages who we are. Also, there are more non-exclusive 2X2s than most realize. Most everyone that has examined the thinking honestly and for what it is, putting away the mindset to "not question", has come to the conclusion that it's absurd. Jondough ~ I just want to tell you how much I appreciated your post and your honesty. I know you are non-exclusive and deeply admire you for taking that stand within the 2x2's. However, if you re-read my post again, you will see that I referred to "some folks" who actually relish in that closed-minded and exclusive mindset.
Perhaps you are in a meeting where there is more freedom of expression than is found in other meetings due to folks who share your point of view? However, I have known more than a few friends in my past who shared that narrow-minded mindset within the 2x2's and boasted of their "specialness" in meetings. It really turned me off as I feel it does the same for you! In fact, just like Beth, it contributed to my leaving the meetings and eventually finding a church where I could be true to myself and share like precious faith with other Christians without this wall of separation.
However, Beth's comment seems to relay best what I was trying to point out in the first place regarding the walls that go up when you leave the 2x2's due to this exclusive mindset. It usually makes it necessary for you to critique your testimony to fit in with the rest. That wouldn't represent being true to yourself or others, if you had to "fudge it" to fit in with others in your group, don't you agree?
Beth shared...
Thanks Faun, Yes, once you realize exclusivity for what it is, it can be very frustrating to hear. Most at my Sunday morning meeting are VERY exclusive. It bothers me at time, when it comes out in a testimony, but I try not to let it ruin my spirit or attitude. I also know it's futile to try to rebut it. I think it's something that people have to get revelation on their own. We have really nice fellowship with some really great people. I try to focus on the good. I personally don't have a desire to go anywhere else. I feel I have been shown that this is where my place is. Nathan has informed me more than once of those that have been exed for thinking like I do. If I get exed, then I guess I would have to look for another fellowship. Until then, I am content where I am, and enjoy our fellowship.
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Post by blandie on Dec 19, 2015 14:39:52 GMT -5
Back to the topic - I still don't think forbidding married workers has anything to do with concerns about children. Older couples whose kids have left the nest long ago have also been refused entry into workership as well as the fact that married workers have been accepted in the past. Workers who express an intention to get married get dropped. Whatever the reason theres no biblical command and precedent for an unmarried ministry - none. The bible says that bishops/overseers - the word bishop means overseer - must be married. Instead we get illicit affairs - fornication and adultery and possibly influences some CSA - among workers and some very respected workers including some NathanB knows have longstanding extra-marital relationships of just those sort. Its bizarre.
Reading about the rc reasons for celibate priesthood was also interesting and that it also doesn't trace back to christ but to more than a thousand years after. Seems the reason had more to do with avoiding families passing down priesthoods and inheriting properties. That didn't work for many centuries because there was nothing to stop a priest from favoring his family and taking up with a woman and having kids without benefit of marriage and other workarounds. Eventually the rc church started to be more centralized and accounting was put into place so that nepotism has largely disappeared in modern times. If 2x2-ism had similar reasons they also have failed because theres not accounting to the church and substituting required celibacy for honorable marriage has similarly been detoured with favoritism and immorality filling the void. Not all catholic churches have required celibacy for priests - the greek church never required priests to be celibate for instance tho strangely they do for bishops.
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Post by blandie on Dec 19, 2015 16:01:44 GMT -5
Yes i don't see that as referring to the ministry but to any one who chooses to not have a partner. A Eunuch is one who has been castrated usually when they are very young. correct on the castration part, spiritually though there are those that abstain from relations that are in effect the same thing(eunuchs) for the kingdom... Being a eunuch doesn't equal abstinence from sex relations tho. Castration means no offspring and maybe less sex drive but eunuchs can still engage in sex activities and can and have married. But 'spiritual' eunuchs as you call them can still produce offspring and have done that too in the case of workers so not eunuchs in any sense. Not being married doesn't equal being a eunuch spiritual or otherwise.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 19, 2015 16:44:45 GMT -5
I've never been judged by people so much as I have been on this site, yet none of you know me. Apparently I'm not going to heaven for various reasons, I'm not going because I'm not covered by the blood of Christ, or I'm not going because I'm not a friend or worker. Yet I love God from the depths of my heart. I'm so glad that God judges my heart and not a human being. I came here to meet people that I thought were God's people. People that i could speak about the things of God to. But I'm seeing more and more that this isn't the right place to be for that. I think to be called a heathen is something that's just hit home to my heart as to why I shouldn't be here. I hope and pray for all of you that you will be blessed with the love if God in your lives and hearts. And I hope from my heart that if I get in to heaven, that I will see you all there. God bless Mary I haven't seen anyone who has called you a "heathen," Maryhig.
As for judging, -you have done your share of judging others. If something has "hit home" to you, -perhaps it was this that I ask of you in another thread & you didn't answer? (excerpts from your post on the thread " Growing up gay") "So I do believe that according to the bible, it is wrong for either a man or woman to sleep with the same sex, it says so in both new and old testaments. I believe that the bible is clear in this. But, as you rightly say, we have all sinned and we all come short glory of God, once we know in our hearts its wrong then for me I believe i should stop the act. I believe we should listen to our own conscience. As to me, this is God guiding us individually. "I myself am a sinner , i have committed adultery. And married again. It's brought up many times in our meeting about how wrong it is to do this, and now after many years of worrying, I leave it in Gods hands. Only he knows my heart, and what I've been through, but for whatever reason I did this, I can't say it's Ok to do so, because I know it's a sin before God. So I just leave it with him. Then according to what you believe that "it is wrong for either a man or woman to sleep with the same sex," but but once they know in their hearts its wrong then "they should stop the act."
You also say that you "have committed adultery because you have married again,' am I to presume you have taken your own advise & "stopped the act?"
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Post by maryhig on Dec 19, 2015 16:54:04 GMT -5
I've never been judged by people so much as I have been on this site, yet none of you know me. Apparently I'm not going to heaven for various reasons, I'm not going because I'm not covered by the blood of Christ, or I'm not going because I'm not a friend or worker. Yet I love God from the depths of my heart. I'm so glad that God judges my heart and not a human being. I came here to meet people that I thought were God's people. People that i could speak about the things of God to. But I'm seeing more and more that this isn't the right place to be for that. I think to be called a heathen is something that's just hit home to my heart as to why I shouldn't be here. I hope and pray for all of you that you will be blessed with the love if God in your lives and hearts. And I hope from my heart that if I get in to heaven, that I will see you all there. God bless Mary I haven't seen anyone who has called you a "heathen," Maryhig.
As for judging, -you have done your share of judging others. If something has "hit home" to yourself, -perhaps it was this that I ask of you in another thread & you didn't answer. excerpts from your post, Maryhig. "So I do believe that according to the bible, it is wrong for either a man or woman to sleep with the same sex, it says so in both new and old testaments. I believe that the bible is clear in this. But, as you rightly say, we have all sinned and we all come short glory of God, once we know in our hearts its wrong then for me I believe i should stop the act. I believe we should listen to our own conscience. As to me, this is God guiding us individually. "I myself am a sinner , i have committed adultery. And married again. It's brought up many times in our meeting about how wrong it is to do this, and now after many years of worrying, I leave it in Gods hands. Only he knows my heart, and what I've been through, but for whatever reason I did this, I can't say it's Ok to do so, because I know it's a sin before God. So I just leave it with him. Then according to what you believe that "it is wrong for either a man or woman to sleep with the same sex," but but once they know in their hearts its wrong then "they should stop the act."
You also say that you "have committed adultery because you have married again,' am I to presume you have taken your own advise & "stopped the act?"Yes i did answer you, look at your inbox, I answered you yesterday! I PM'd you!
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Post by magpie on Dec 19, 2015 16:58:12 GMT -5
Eunuchs in many cases they were used as safe sex stimulants in Harems, and also by men as sex slaves.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 19, 2015 17:25:37 GMT -5
I haven't seen anyone who has called you a "heathen," Maryhig.
As for judging, -you have done your share of judging others. If something has "hit home" to yourself, -perhaps it was this that I ask of you in another thread & you didn't answer. excerpts from your post, Maryhig. "So I do believe that according to the bible, it is wrong for either a man or woman to sleep with the same sex, it says so in both new and old testaments. I believe that the bible is clear in this. But, as you rightly say, we have all sinned and we all come short glory of God, once we know in our hearts its wrong then for me I believe i should stop the act. I believe we should listen to our own conscience. As to me, this is God guiding us individually. "I myself am a sinner , i have committed adultery. And married again. It's brought up many times in our meeting about how wrong it is to do this, and now after many years of worrying, I leave it in Gods hands. Only he knows my heart, and what I've been through, but for whatever reason I did this, I can't say it's Ok to do so, because I know it's a sin before God. So I just leave it with him. Then according to what you believe that "it is wrong for either a man or woman to sleep with the same sex," but but once they know in their hearts its wrong then "they should stop the act."
You also say that you "have committed adultery because you have married again,' am I to presume you have taken your own advise & "stopped the act?" Yes i did answer you, look at your inbox, I answered you yesterday! I PM'd you! OK. However, Why do you feel that you can't answer the question here on the forum?
You don't seem to mind accusing people of "judging" you and complaining as you say that you, "came here to meet people that I thought were God's people" and then in a back-handed manner insinuating that they aren't "God's people" after all.
Then in a kind of self-righteous condemnation, say you don't think it is the place for you to be?
Isn't that you "judging" other people?
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Post by maryhig on Dec 19, 2015 19:42:42 GMT -5
Yes i did answer you, look at your inbox, I answered you yesterday! I PM'd you! OK. However, Why do you feel that you can't answer the question here on the forum?
You don't seem to mind accusing people of "judging" you and complaining as you say that you, "came here to meet people that I thought were God's people" and then in a back-handed manner insinuating that they aren't "God's people" after all.
Then in a kind of self-righteous condemnation, say you don't think it is the place for you to be?
Isn't that you "judging" other people?When I say I came here to meet God's people, I meant I came to meet the people who the in past we would have gone to meetings with. I'm not saying they are not Gods people. God knows his own and only he knows our hearts. In all denominations. I wouldn't even dare before God say who does and doesn't belong to him. As I have said many times, I hope for all to get to heaven. You included! But only God himself knows who will be there.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 20, 2015 2:50:47 GMT -5
OK. However, Why do you feel that you can't answer the question here on the forum?
You don't seem to mind accusing people of "judging" you and complaining as you say that you, "came here to meet people that I thought were God's people" and then in a back-handed manner insinuating that they aren't "God's people" after all.
Then in a kind of self-righteous condemnation, say you don't think it is the place for you to be?
Isn't that you "judging" other people? When I say I came here to meet God's people, I meant I came to meet the people who the in past we would have gone to meetings with. I'm not saying they are not Gods people. God knows his own and only he knows our hearts. In all denominations. I wouldn't even dare before God say who does and doesn't belong to him. As I have said many times, I hope for all to get to heaven. You included! But only God himself knows who will be there. In all due respect, that was not exactly how your post sounded.
(BTW, I understand you not wanting to answer my other question and I respect that.)
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Post by bubbles on Dec 20, 2015 12:19:17 GMT -5
Yes, I was quite amazed how someone could take this instruction from Jesus that basically tells us that if a brother sins against us, that we make every effort to go to him about it and make it right (even if its not our fault). Get the church involved, but make it right with your brother. If you have done all this, and still cannot make it right, then basically, leave him alone...don't bother him anymore. So you take this bit of scripture and interpret it as thought Jesus contradicts his own instruction where he has told us very plainly not to judge. Wow, talk about really pushing it to fit your own actions. I know its an uncomfortable verse for you but its still there and calls us to have balance in dealing with others... Wally if you meant the scripture is uncomfortable for me it is not. People generally dont like confrontation..especially the friends. They put up.with all kinds of stuff then say we must not judge. It also takes courage to confess you have done wrong and go before the church. I have never heard of that happening within 2x2s. Only mainline churches.
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Post by emy on Dec 20, 2015 15:07:55 GMT -5
It also takes courage to confess you have done wrong and go before the church. I have never heard of that happening within 2x2s. Only mainline churches.
I heard Willis Propp do this at convention. But people from TMB tell me he continued in wrong-doing beyond that confession. I have not looked into it.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2015 16:23:08 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: ~~ The sincere Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims will come and join with the 2x2 fellowship, because many of the friends and workers who like myself came from other churches also. Nathan, sincere Christians are leaving the 2x2 fellowship. They will leave and keep leaving if they are truly sincere about their relationship with God. Very few in meetings have come from other churches. The majority have grown up in it. Those who are raised in the truth like the children of Israel in the Old Testament... Majority didn't appreciate or knew how fortunate they are in Knowing the truth and Way of Yahweh God.... Likewise, with those raised in the Truth and Way of Jesus. Paul wrote in II Thess 2... Because they receive NOT the love of the truth, that they might be SAVED. And for this reason God shall send them powerful delusion, that they should believe a LIE, that they all be damned who believed NOT the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. FYI: Valiant Thor did not attend the 2x2 fellowship. Valiant Thor is the guardian angel Order. ALL of the good angels had made their choice long, long time ago in choosing or standing with Christ as their Lord God Savior instead with Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels. The good Guardian angels are SAVED already, they don't need to attend 2x2 fellowship.Ok, so Valiant Thor is an angel. What about Dr Strange who preaches this stuff? Is he a 2x2? Is he 'saved'?
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Post by bubbles on Dec 20, 2015 21:35:14 GMT -5
OK. However, Why do you feel that you can't answer the question here on the forum?
You don't seem to mind accusing people of "judging" you and complaining as you say that you, "came here to meet people that I thought were God's people" and then in a back-handed manner insinuating that they aren't "God's people" after all.
Then in a kind of self-righteous condemnation, say you don't think it is the place for you to be?
Isn't that you "judging" other people? When I say I came here to meet God's people, I meant I came to meet the people who the in past we would have gone to meetings with. I'm not saying they are not Gods people. God knows his own and only he knows our hearts. In all denominations. I wouldn't even dare before God say who does and doesn't belong to him. As I have said many times, I hope for all to get to heaven. You included! But only God himself knows who will be there. Hey MaryH xxxx I love you. Take no notice of bitter lemons they leave a sower taste in your mouth. Merry Christmas. Wish we could have it together. Laugh til daylight sharing notes and wit. Hugs and kisses sweetcheeks you gem of a woman!!
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Post by Mary on Dec 21, 2015 1:25:38 GMT -5
Ok, so Valiant Thor is an angel. What about Dr Strange who preaches this stuff? Is he a 2x2? Is he 'saved'? Yes, Dr. Frank is SAVED the way I see it. I have heard of some stories, about people who told their children about their vision/understanding of the preachers going forth like Jesus sent out his apostles will come someday... they died before the workers came but their children remembered and embrace the gospel.... Are the grandparents saved? I believe so... God knows their hearts.
In 1978 my American step-dad was telling me that was NOT right for Billy G. to be millionaire for preaching the gospel, so I defend Billy... Then a few months later, I met the workers, I was so happy to hear them explain how they lived, and preached like the apostles, I went home and told my step-dad about Uncle Leo and Larry. I wanted my step-dad to meet the workers, and I made an appointment for them to meet one another, but he died suddenly... So, I believe my step-dad is saved, God knows the condition of his heart. I put my faith in God's righteous judgment.
What year did Dr Strange die?
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Post by jondough on Dec 21, 2015 12:44:47 GMT -5
Ok, so Valiant Thor is an angel. What about Dr Strange who preaches this stuff? Is he a 2x2? Is he 'saved'? Yes, Dr. Frank is SAVED the way I see it. I have heard of some stories, about people who told their children about their vision/understanding of the preachers going forth like Jesus sent out his apostles will come someday... they died before the workers came but their children remembered and embrace the gospel.... Are the grandparents saved? I believe so... God knows their hearts.
In 1978 my American step-dad was telling me that was NOT right for Billy G. to be millionaire for preaching the gospel, so I defend Billy... Then a few months later, I met the workers, I was so happy to hear them explain how they lived, and preached like the apostles, I went home and told my step-dad about Uncle Leo and Larry. I wanted my step-dad to meet the workers, and I made an appointment for them to meet one another, but he died suddenly... So, I believe my step-dad is saved, God knows the condition of his heart. I put my faith in God's righteous judgment.
Ah, Nathan, you are starting to cross the line into non-exclusiveness. The line has now become wider and grayer.
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