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Post by jondough on Dec 17, 2015 8:56:50 GMT -5
Nathan would think that your Uncle was not saved unless he found the Workers. If he died without finding the Worikers then he is going to burn for all eternity dispite giving his entire life to God. JD, if that is so, then that would be a shame. Because only God knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, or what hell is for that matter! And that accounts for all of us, whatever denomination we are in, or what we believe, only God knows the depths of everyone's heart. How do we know another's heart. How can we judge who is and who isn't going to heaven or hell? We can't, we're not God. We're only flesh. You're preaching to the choir. I agree 100 percent. This is the not so pretty thing about exclusiveness. Those that are exclusive may also say, "only God knows". "Only God can be the judge". Yet what exclusive means in this case is that if they don't fellowship with them, then they cannot have access to the cleansing blood of Christ, therefore cannot have access to Heaven. So a dishonest exclusive person will say they are not judging the "Outsider". An honest exclusive person will at least admit that they "know" that Mr Jones who goes to ?? Church is not saved, and if he doesn't profess through a Worker before he dies, he will be burning for all eternity. In essence, they have judged Mr Jones as unsaved, therefore wrong. What still escapes me is how they get around all the versus in the bible on judging. The "judge not lest ye be judged" seems clear enough all by itself. Maybe they think that Jesus and the rest were referring to not judging professing people only. Who knows?
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Post by jondough on Dec 17, 2015 9:19:19 GMT -5
Having money is not a sin. Its the LOVE of money that is a sin.
Jesus said that its harder for a camel to go through and eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. The eye of of needle was a low opening in a castle where the camel had to actually get on its knees to go through it. Why didn't he say that a rich man cannot enter Heaven?
The reason its difficult for a rich man to enter is because its natural for man to love money, and even more so if you're rich. The more you have, the harder it becomes to keep your priorities straight. But then how did Jesus end this? "with God, all things are possible".
Billy Grahm did an amazing job keeping his straight when looking at his humbe life style in comparison to how he could have been living. He used just about everything he ever made to spread the Word.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Dec 17, 2015 10:20:38 GMT -5
Having money is not a sin. Its the LOVE of money that is a sin. Jesus said that its harder for a camel to go through and eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. The eye of of needle was a low opening in a castle where the camel had to actually get on its knees to go through it. Why didn't he say that a rich man cannot enter Heaven? The reason its difficult for a rich man to enter is because its natural for man to love money, and even more so if you're rich. The more you have, the harder it becomes to keep your priorities straight. But then how did Jesus end this? "with God, all things are possible". Billy Grahm did an amazing job keeping his straight when looking at his humbe life style in comparison to how he could have been living. He used just about everything he ever made to spread the Word. From what I've read in various places, the idea that there was a gate that low has been around for ages, but such a gate likely never existed. www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htmHowever, I agree: the Bible teaches that it is the love of money that is the problem, not money itself. Jesus used money to show the rich young ruler that he loved money more than God and others and therefore couldn't say that he had kept the commandments. The more you have, the greater the tendency is to trust to your own resources rather than God. Jesus taught that with the foolish man who had so much that he was going to tear down his barns and build bigger. Nonetheless, money in the hands of a wise and generous person is of use to God -- the rich man in whose tomb Jesus was buried, etc. To be generous with your money is a blessing to others that brings blessing to yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 11:54:40 GMT -5
JD, if that is so, then that would be a shame. Because only God knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, or what hell is for that matter! And that accounts for all of us, whatever denomination we are in, or what we believe, only God knows the depths of everyone's heart. How do we know another's heart. How can we judge who is and who isn't going to heaven or hell? We can't, we're not God. We're only flesh. You're preaching to the choir. I agree 100 percent. This is the not so pretty thing about exclusiveness. Those that are exclusive may also say, "only God knows". "Only God can be the judge". Yet what exclusive means in this case is that if they don't fellowship with them, then they cannot have access to the cleansing blood of Christ, therefore cannot have access to Heaven. So a dishonest exclusive person will say they are not judging the "Outsider". An honest exclusive person will at least admit that they "know" that Mr Jones who goes to ?? Church is not saved, and if he doesn't profess through a Worker before he dies, he will be burning for all eternity. In essence, they have judged Mr Jones as unsaved, therefore wrong. What still escapes me is how they get around all the versus in the bible on judging. The "judge not lest ye be judged" seems clear enough all by itself. Maybe they think that Jesus and the rest were referring to not judging professing people only. Who knows? when Jesus said to treat someone as a heathen when they wouldn't listen to the church was that Jesus asking us to not judge?
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 12:15:18 GMT -5
JD, if that is so, then that would be a shame. Because only God knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, or what hell is for that matter! And that accounts for all of us, whatever denomination we are in, or what we believe, only God knows the depths of everyone's heart. How do we know another's heart. How can we judge who is and who isn't going to heaven or hell? We can't, we're not God. We're only flesh. You're preaching to the choir. I agree 100 percent. This is the not so pretty thing about exclusiveness. Those that are exclusive may also say, "only God knows". "Only God can be the judge". Yet what exclusive means in this case is that if they don't fellowship with them, then they cannot have access to the cleansing blood of Christ, therefore cannot have access to Heaven. So a dishonest exclusive person will say they are not judging the "Outsider". An honest exclusive person will at least admit that they "know" that Mr Jones who goes to ?? Church is not saved, and if he doesn't profess through a Worker before he dies, he will be burning for all eternity. In essence, they have judged Mr Jones as unsaved, therefore wrong. What still escapes me is how they get around all the versus in the bible on judging. The "judge not lest ye be judged" seems clear enough all by itself. Maybe they think that Jesus and the rest were referring to not judging professing people only. Who knows? Thank you for explaining JD, I understand now.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 12:30:33 GMT -5
You're preaching to the choir. I agree 100 percent. This is the not so pretty thing about exclusiveness. Those that are exclusive may also say, "only God knows". "Only God can be the judge". Yet what exclusive means in this case is that if they don't fellowship with them, then they cannot have access to the cleansing blood of Christ, therefore cannot have access to Heaven. So a dishonest exclusive person will say they are not judging the "Outsider". An honest exclusive person will at least admit that they "know" that Mr Jones who goes to ?? Church is not saved, and if he doesn't profess through a Worker before he dies, he will be burning for all eternity. In essence, they have judged Mr Jones as unsaved, therefore wrong. What still escapes me is how they get around all the versus in the bible on judging. The "judge not lest ye be judged" seems clear enough all by itself. Maybe they think that Jesus and the rest were referring to not judging professing people only. Who knows? when Jesus said to treat someone as a heathen when they wouldn't listen to the church was that Jesus asking us to not judge? Wally, I don't feel like that about you, or any others here. I hope with all my heart that all get to heaven. I've never been judged by people so much as I have been on this site, yet none of you know me. Apparently I'm not going to heaven for various reasons, I'm not going because I'm not covered by the blood of Christ, or I'm not going because I'm not a friend or worker. Yet I love God from the depths of my heart. I'm so glad that God judges my heart and not a human being. I came here to meet people that I thought were God's people. People that i could speak about the things of God to. But I'm seeing more and more that this isn't the right place to be for that. I think to be called a heathen is something that's just hit home to my heart as to why I shouldn't be here. I hope and pray for all of you that you will be blessed with the love if God in your lives and hearts. And I hope from my heart that if I get in to heaven, that I will see you all there. God bless Mary
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Post by faune on Dec 17, 2015 13:10:05 GMT -5
Therald Sylvester told his companions that after Dave and Emily Christie married and went to Hawaii, Bea Mookinni (a native Hawaiian) stated she got no vision of the possibility of the work for herself until unmarrieds came to the islands to preach.
Based upon that, neither he nor any following after him allowed marriage, though by Carroll's example, workers were allowed to have affairs with each other and continue in the work usually provided they were separated by a large distance, except on/for special occasions. This was told me by a female worker wanting such a relationship. She eventually found it and they chose to marry.
There are many secrets still hidden. Dennis ~ I have been doing some research on this topic and discovered another forum which gives some more insight into these practices among workers where affairs are considered acceptable, but marriage is not. The reasoning given is that there is a difference between vowing to live a celibate lifestyle, but it doesn't mean chastity or refraining from intimate relationships among singles. However, if the single friends were caught by the workers doing the same thing, there would be Hell to pay and punishment for them. Nothing like a double standard, eh? Here's the forum where this information can be found and Dennis was also quoted from this thread under the topic below. members3.boardhost.com/Professing/msg/1450112689.html Re: Worker assertion that a vow of celibacy is not the same as a vow of chasity ...
You can find the tombstones of Linda Heyes and Jack Carroll under the 1957 listing at this website. Linda Heyes died in 1943 and Jack Carroll in 1957. ~ www.workersect.org/2x205a.html
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Post by faune on Dec 17, 2015 13:36:43 GMT -5
I wonder if some of these older 2x2 overseers didn't get their special twist between what defines a celibate ministry and chastity from this definition within the Catholic Church who also subscribe to a celibate priesthood? historynewsnetwork.org/article/696 When Did the Catholic Church Decide Priests Should Be Celibate? (Oct. 2001) www.chick.com/bc/1984/celibacy.asp Celibacy or Chastity? They Are Not the Same
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Post by faune on Dec 17, 2015 14:38:45 GMT -5
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Post by magpie on Dec 17, 2015 15:30:04 GMT -5
G'day Faune,,Wonder if Nathan has read the history of when Catholic Priests were to only be celibates? Kisking against the pricks,he is stubborn and I suppose still in bondage to a theological heresy? Getting to like seeing your photo come up,you put up a good debate.
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Post by jondough on Dec 17, 2015 17:55:42 GMT -5
You're preaching to the choir. I agree 100 percent. This is the not so pretty thing about exclusiveness. Those that are exclusive may also say, "only God knows". "Only God can be the judge". Yet what exclusive means in this case is that if they don't fellowship with them, then they cannot have access to the cleansing blood of Christ, therefore cannot have access to Heaven. So a dishonest exclusive person will say they are not judging the "Outsider". An honest exclusive person will at least admit that they "know" that Mr Jones who goes to ?? Church is not saved, and if he doesn't profess through a Worker before he dies, he will be burning for all eternity. In essence, they have judged Mr Jones as unsaved, therefore wrong. What still escapes me is how they get around all the versus in the bible on judging. The "judge not lest ye be judged" seems clear enough all by itself. Maybe they think that Jesus and the rest were referring to not judging professing people only. Who knows? when Jesus said to treat someone as a heathen when they wouldn't listen to the church was that Jesus asking us to not judge? Wally, I think if you read Marry Hig's post above (she answered before I saw this) I will need to say no more. I hope this hits home, but I have a feeling it may not.
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Post by bubbles on Dec 17, 2015 17:59:46 GMT -5
You're preaching to the choir. I agree 100 percent. This is the not so pretty thing about exclusiveness. Those that are exclusive may also say, "only God knows". "Only God can be the judge". Yet what exclusive means in this case is that if they don't fellowship with them, then they cannot have access to the cleansing blood of Christ, therefore cannot have access to Heaven. So a dishonest exclusive person will say they are not judging the "Outsider". An honest exclusive person will at least admit that they "know" that Mr Jones who goes to ?? Church is not saved, and if he doesn't profess through a Worker before he dies, he will be burning for all eternity. In essence, they have judged Mr Jones as unsaved, therefore wrong. What still escapes me is how they get around all the versus in the bible on judging. The "judge not lest ye be judged" seems clear enough all by itself. Maybe they think that Jesus and the rest were referring to not judging professing people only. Who knows? when Jesus said to treat someone as a heathen when they wouldn't listen to the church was that Jesus asking us to not judge? Which verse you talking about wally? To rightly divide the word of truth we also need to look at other verses that speak of him leaving the 99 and attending the one. Love. Or How important it is too spread the love of christ through loving him and loving others. Whatever that means. Anything from helping to finance to food to shelter blankets. Love. Jesus came to die for sinners. Love. Not righteous people.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 18:15:08 GMT -5
when Jesus said to treat someone as a heathen when they wouldn't listen to the church was that Jesus asking us to not judge? Which verse you talking about wally? To rightly divide the word of truth we also need to look at other verses that speak of him leaving the 99 and attending the one. Love. Or How important it is too spread the love of christ through loving him and loving others. Whatever that means. Anything from helping to finance to food to shelter blankets. Love. Jesus came to die for sinners. Love. Not righteous people. Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2015 18:58:00 GMT -5
G'day Faune,,Wonder if Nathan has read the history of when Catholic Priests were to only be celibates? Kicking against the pricks, he is stubborn and I suppose still in bondage to a theological heresy? Getting to like seeing your photo come up, you put up a good debate. I explained and gave you history of Celibacy in my previous posts... It was Jesus who started the celibate ministry, most of the 12 and 70 apostles were chosen as celibate preachers of the gospel as well. Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Luke, John Mark, Apollo, and others (the Vaudois/Waldenses and those like them) have continued followed Jesus Celibate example as preacher of the gospel through the centuries NOT just the RCC Bishops Celibate priests/Pope/Cardinals, etc . The Roman Catholic church made Celibate ministry official at Council of Elvira (A.D. 305) (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy_(Catholic_Church)
The Celibate ministry started by Jesus himself NOT by Paul or the RCC.
Was Jesus Married or Celibate? preacher of the gospel
2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/190/jesus-married
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2015 23:52:50 GMT -5
Yes, really.... It started by John the Baptist and Jesus. John the Baptist was Jesus 1st cousin. Jesus allowed Peter a married man in the ministry because married couples without children and with children had a very useful place in the church/fellowship of the New Testament. It would be more challenges when the married couples had children. We know Peter a married man had a VERY useful place in the church/ministry in the beginning so was Paul as unmarried/celibate preacher of the gospel, both callings have useful place in the New Testament church of God.
The married couple with or without children understand the married friends couples struggles, challenges than the Unmarried/single workers. The married workers with children can enter the feelings, and help the married friends in how to raise their children in Godly manners, and dealing with marital difficult times in their marriage. The single/unmarried workers would NOT have the full knowledge of what is like to have children or married life is all about to really help the married friends with children.
Just how do you know whether Peter had any children or not? Also, how do you know, for that matter, whether the other apostles weren't married?
There is absolutely nothing that says they weren't married or for that matter had children or not. Just the absence of any comment does NOT make something positive or negative
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Post by Grant on Dec 17, 2015 23:55:45 GMT -5
Where did Jesus command a celibate ministry?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 0:00:36 GMT -5
Where did Jesus command a celibate ministry? this is the verse used generally...
Mat_19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
although that may include single people too not just the ministry....
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Post by Grant on Dec 18, 2015 0:05:54 GMT -5
Yes i don't see that as referring to the ministry but to any one who chooses to not have a partner.
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Post by Grant on Dec 18, 2015 0:07:47 GMT -5
Yes i don't see that as referring to the ministry but to any one who chooses to not have a partner.
A Eunuch is one who has been castrated usually when they are very young.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 0:10:33 GMT -5
Yes i don't see that as referring to the ministry but to any one who chooses to not have a partner. A Eunuch is one who has been castrated usually when they are very young. correct on the castration part, spiritually though there are those that abstain from relations that are in effect the same thing(eunuchs) for the kingdom...
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Post by jondough on Dec 18, 2015 0:31:00 GMT -5
when Jesus said to treat someone as a heathen when they wouldn't listen to the church was that Jesus asking us to not judge? Wally, I don't feel like that about you, or any others here. I hope with all my heart that all get to heaven. I've never been judged by people so much as I have been on this site, yet none of you know me. Apparently I'm not going to heaven for various reasons, I'm not going because I'm not covered by the blood of Christ, or I'm not going because I'm not a friend or worker. Yet I love God from the depths of my heart. I'm so glad that God judges my heart and not a human being. I came here to meet people that I thought were God's people. People that i could speak about the things of God to. But I'm seeing more and more that this isn't the right place to be for that. I think to be called a heathen is something that's just hit home to my heart as to why I shouldn't be here. I hope and pray for all of you that you will be blessed with the love if God in your lives and hearts. And I hope from my heart that if I get in to heaven, that I will see you all there. God bless Mary You are not a "Heathen" Maryhig. Far from it. If someone judges you to be a Heathen, its definetely their problem not yours.
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Post by bubbles on Dec 18, 2015 8:41:31 GMT -5
Which verse you talking about wally? To rightly divide the word of truth we also need to look at other verses that speak of him leaving the 99 and attending the one. Love. Or How important it is too spread the love of christ through loving him and loving others. Whatever that means. Anything from helping to finance to food to shelter blankets. Love. Jesus came to die for sinners. Love. Not righteous people. Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Hmmm..I know of one person who followed these verses. It turned against him. There are some things leaders dont like to follow and this is one of them. It is about brothers wally. Not heathen.
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Post by jondough on Dec 18, 2015 8:50:52 GMT -5
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Hmmm..I know of one person who followed these verses. It turned against him. There are some things leaders dont like to follow and this is one of them. It is about brothers wally. Not heathen. Yes, I was quite amazed how someone could take this instruction from Jesus that basically tells us that if a brother sins against us, that we make every effort to go to him about it and make it right (even if its not our fault). Get the church involved, but make it right with your brother. If you have done all this, and still cannot make it right, then basically, leave him alone...don't bother him anymore. So you take this bit of scripture and interpret it as thought Jesus contradicts his own instruction where he has told us very plainly not to judge. Wow, talk about really pushing it to fit your own actions.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 18, 2015 10:17:18 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Dec 18, 2015 12:31:53 GMT -5
Thanks for pictures, Cherie. However, I noticed a discrepancy in her birth date. The tombstone says 1892 as her birth year and the caption under the photo shows 1891. Was there a typo here?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 14:45:46 GMT -5
Hmmm..I know of one person who followed these verses. It turned against him. There are some things leaders dont like to follow and this is one of them. It is about brothers wally. Not heathen. Yes, I was quite amazed how someone could take this instruction from Jesus that basically tells us that if a brother sins against us, that we make every effort to go to him about it and make it right (even if its not our fault). Get the church involved, but make it right with your brother. If you have done all this, and still cannot make it right, then basically, leave him alone...don't bother him anymore. So you take this bit of scripture and interpret it as thought Jesus contradicts his own instruction where he has told us very plainly not to judge. Wow, talk about really pushing it to fit your own actions. I know its an uncomfortable verse for you but its still there and calls us to have balance in dealing with others...
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Post by jondough on Dec 18, 2015 18:05:14 GMT -5
Yes, I was quite amazed how someone could take this instruction from Jesus that basically tells us that if a brother sins against us, that we make every effort to go to him about it and make it right (even if its not our fault). Get the church involved, but make it right with your brother. If you have done all this, and still cannot make it right, then basically, leave him alone...don't bother him anymore. So you take this bit of scripture and interpret it as thought Jesus contradicts his own instruction where he has told us very plainly not to judge. Wow, talk about really pushing it to fit your own actions. I know its an uncomfortable verse for you but its still there and calls us to have balance in dealing with others... I'm not sure why you think that making things right with my brother is an uncomfortable verse. What makes me a little uncomfortable is when someone twist the words of Jesus to make it sound like he contradicts himself. He doesn't. He never will. What he says he means, and he means what he says. I'm not sure, I could be mistaken but calling Maryhig a "Heathen" and running her off this board is probably not what Christ would consider "balance in dealing with others".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 18:10:50 GMT -5
I know its an uncomfortable verse for you but its still there and calls us to have balance in dealing with others... I'm not sure why you think that making things right with my brother is an uncomfortable verse. What makes me a little uncomfortable is when someone twist the words of Jesus to make it sound like he contradicts himself. He doesn't. He never will. What he says he means, and he means what he says. I'm not sure, I could be mistaken but calling Maryhig a "Heathen" and running her off this board is probably not what Christ would consider "balance in dealing with others". your avoiding the elephant in the room Jesus gave us multiple tools to deal with brethren and unbelievers that give us problems. its not a contradiction its a thing called balance for we are to have just weights in all matters....
no one called mary a heathen your making stuff up jondough and no one suggested running her off the board either...
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