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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2015 22:11:12 GMT -5
Nathan,by the way don't forget to study the History of RCC celibacy at Web----History News NetmWork| When did the Catholic Church decide Priests should be celibate? This is from the early Christians beliefs: The Catholic means Universal early church fathers/2nd century apostles teaching... On Celibacy! Terullian (A.D. 207) we do NOT reject marriage, but simply refrain from it, voluntarily. Nor do we prescribe celibacy as the rule, but only recommend it. We observe it as a good state--- Yes, even a the better state if each man uses it carefully according to his ability. But, as the same time, we earnestly vindicate marriage. Origin (A.D. 245) According to the word of God, marriage was a gift, just as holy celibacy was a gift. The Savior teaches us that absolute chastity is a gift given by God. It is NOT merely the fruit of training. Rather, it is given by God with prayer. "ALL men can not receiving the saying, "Ask and it shall be given you." Therefore, God give the good gift-- perfect purity in celibacy! and chasity to those who ask him with the whole soul, with faith, and in prayers without ceasing.Pierius (A.D. 275) Paul wrote "I wish that all men were even as I am." Pierius, when he was expounding and unfolding the meaning of the apostle Paul and purposed to explain these words, added this remark: " In saying this, Paul clearly preaches Celibacy!" Methodius (A.D. 290) It is NOT given to all to attain that undefiled state of being a eunuch for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, Rather, it plainly is given ONLY to those who are able to preserve the ever blooming and unfading flower of virginity. It is clear to all, without any doubt, that to care for the things of the Lord and to please God is much better than to care for the things of the world and to please one's wife."
Terullian (A.D. 207) we do NOT reject marriage, but simply refrain from it, voluntarily. Nor do we prescribe celibacy as the rule, but only recommend it. We observe it as a good state--- Yes, even a the better state if each man uses it carefully according to his ability. But, as the same time, we earnestly vindicate marriage.
Origin (A.D. 245) According to the word of God, marriage was a gift, just as holy celibacy was a gift. The Savior teaches us that absolute chastity is a gift given by God. It is NOT merely the fruit of training. Rather, it is given by God with prayer. "ALL men can not receiving the saying, "Ask and it shall be given you." Therefore, God give the good gift-- perfect purity in celibacy! and Chasity to those who ask him with the whole soul, with faith, and in prayers without ceasing.[/font] Roman Catholic/Universal church apostles began their celibate in the 1st century, but it became a law at Council of Elvira in the 3rd century. Council of Elvira (A.D. 305) (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy_(Catholic_Church)[/quote] Nathan ~ I've always said the 2x2's were more like the Roman Catholic Church regarding its clergy due to embracing the teachings of the Early Church Fathers on celibacy which evolved around church traditions that were held above scripture itself with little support from the Bible. By the way, I did notice you couldn't support your argument with any scriptures from the N.T. However, there are scriptures relating to this subject in the N.T. ~ they just don't support it, but rather condemn it and relate it to being a "doctrine of devils." In other words, such teaching promotes sexual crimes, such as CSA, along with cover-ups of all kinds of sexual perversity, which claiming to be "the one true church."
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Post by Mary on Dec 15, 2015 1:39:01 GMT -5
Other missionaries have no problem taking their children on the mission field. It is a great experience for them to live in another culture. A family that lived next to me took their children with them for the 14 years they were in Papua New Guinea and they have grown up well adjusted children who are doing well in their lives. Another one at our church spend many years in the Philippians and their daughter is well adjusted, married and doing well. Children of former missionaries that I know seem to do well.
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Post by magpie on Dec 15, 2015 6:29:30 GMT -5
Nathan--please drop the 2x2s evasions---just study the Web on---History news network|when did the catholic church decide that the priests should be celibate?....Perhaps Faune & Mary could encourage you to read it.....Remember if you feel secure in your faith in the preacher only ministry...good ....as there is "no" weakness in Jesus,so read it. Then give a view on what was revealed in that Web. So Paul wasted words in 1 Corinthians 9 VS 5 & 6? Just read that Web,pray for understanding of its contents first,as we do as we begin study of new subjects.
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Post by magpie on Dec 15, 2015 6:30:03 GMT -5
Nathan--please drop the 2x2s evasions---just study the Web on---History news network|when did the catholic church decide that the priests should be celibate?....Perhaps Faune & Mary could encourage you to read it.....Remember if you feel secure in your faith in the preacher only ministry...good ....as there is "no" weakness in Jesus,so read it. Then give a view on what was revealed in that Web. So Paul wasted words in 1 Corinthians 9 VS 5 & 6? Just read that Web,pray for understanding of its contents first,as we do as we begin study of new subjects.
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Post by magpie on Dec 15, 2015 6:37:52 GMT -5
Mary, our sons had a New Guinea native friend,they got him along to church. He was introduced to the son of a missionary bible translator who was working amongst Highland Natives. Hello,great where are you from etc,etc. Your Dad worked amongst that tribe? Yes? Is he still there? Yes,they ate him and his translator partner. Mary serious and humorous at the same time as the two embraced...God worked in mysterious ways that day. Maggie
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Post by blandie on Dec 15, 2015 14:11:48 GMT -5
Both jesus and paul upheld marriage to be honorable and paul even warned against those who would in future forbid anyone from marrying - 1 Tim 4:1-3. It would be very difficult for the married workers with children to stay in the friends homes, and be constantly moving, from house to house every 3 or 4 days, taken them to school and all. It's NOT very practical life to live for the children and family. Many of the friends homes, do not have the accommodation to house more than 2 people with children. It put a lot of stress on the friends to care for that many people at a time. But in times past some workers like the carrolls and the christies managed to stay in the work even with children so it has been done and could be done again. They had homes of course and forbidding marriage to prop up the non-biblical and hypocritical doctrine of homelessness is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Even workers in many places today live in their own homes - tho disguised under the deceitful 'baches' jargon they are still homes and aren't any less homes by being called baches - and housing a family in such accomodations is no different.
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Post by blandie on Dec 16, 2015 0:08:12 GMT -5
Yeah paul had seen married apostles - because other than himself the apostles of jesus christ were married and weren't unmarried celibates. He wasn't writing corinthians just to apostles he was talking to all the corinthian believers (1 Corinth 1:2) and particularly saying that it would be best in view of the upcoming persecution for the unmarried to remain unmarried. He is recommending those able to remain unmarried do so and not commanding not to marry and he starts that passage off by saying 'Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me - it is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless to avoid fornication let every man have his own wife and let every woman have her own husband.'
That one of the christie offspring thought his upbringing difficult - thats relative and not having parents who are workers is no guarantee of a problem-free childhood any more than having parents that are workers makes a childhood difficult. Married people were accepted into the work but the rules changed and they haven't been accepted into the work for a very long time - it's not done - and people in the work are not to be married - it's not done. Those are commandments of men not something jesus or paul ever commanded and a transgression of biblical teachings such as Hebrews 13:4 and 1 Timothy 3:2 and 4:1-3 and Titus 1:6-7 and even the teaching in 1 Corinth 7 if one reads the whole thing instead of ripping things out of context to rationalize something thats not biblical that hasn't even always been in 2x2-ism itself.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 16, 2015 2:05:59 GMT -5
Both jesus and paul upheld marriage to be honorable and paul even warned against those who would in future forbid anyone from marrying - 1 Tim 4:1-3. But in times past some workers like the carrolls and the christies managed to stay in the work even with children so it has been done and could be done again. They had homes of course and forbidding marriage to prop up the non-biblical and hypocritical doctrine of homelessness is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Even workers in many places today live in their own homes - tho disguised under the deceitful 'baches' jargon they are still homes and aren't any less homes by being called baches - and housing a family in such accomodations is no different. If the married workers with children are easy situation as you think... We would have many married workers with children among us. Bill and his wife let the friends raised up their daughter so they could continue in the work to the end. I talked to Christies' son about having his parents as workers in Hawaii were NOT easy.
Jesus NEVER meant to make the life of his servants to be burdensome, too stressful for the family... A worker's life is VERY stressful as it is already... Can you imagine having/pleasing the wife, and kids to go with it can drive a person up the walls, going crazy fast.... caring for the churches, feeding the lambs and sheep, seeking the lost sheep.
Paul, an unmarried apostle had seen and witnessed married apostles among their ranks and this is what he wrote in I Cor. 7:31-33 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife—
Nathan, I know what your trying to say. I understand completely. It's hard for a married man to give his whole heart to God when he has a wife and family. Because he has to put their needs first. My uncle said he never married because he wanted to put God first and wouldn't be able to be a husband as he had to go out preaching and just go off. He lived rough at first for a long time. Not many wives would put up with that. Then when he did work and get a flat, he worked as a rat catcher on a low wage and lived in one small room in Liverpool with a shared bathroom and kitchen. He said he didn't want anything from this world, and that's not a life that many women who want a family would consider. He gave his life to God. And he wanted to bring the kingdom of God to others, this was his priority in his life. So he denied this life and went lay preaching. I know exactly what my uncle mean't. When a person has a calling, then they must go with what's right in their heart. The more we deny in this life, the stronger we become in God. And preachers who don't marry, want to give their all. And they can't do that when they have a family. Because they have to go where God leads them. And in their hearts this calling comes first. My uncle preached until he was an old man. But he always said it was good to marry, it just want right for him. Because he wanted to give God his all.
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Post by Grant on Dec 16, 2015 2:30:25 GMT -5
The workers do not go where God calls them, they go where they are told to by the head worker hierarchy.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 16, 2015 2:53:32 GMT -5
The workers do not go where God calls them, they go where they are told to by the head worker hierarchy. Isn't that the same with Christian churches, aren't their ministers sent to where there told to go? Then they're given a home and salary?
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Post by Grant on Dec 16, 2015 3:59:03 GMT -5
No Christian ministers do not go where they are told to go.
Evangelists go where God calls them. Missionaries go where they feel God is calling them. If a church wants a pastor they will pray about it and approach a person and ask them. If the person feels God is calling them they will go, if they don't then they won't go.
Some churches have a house but a lot don't these days. A worker is worthy of his hire. I would hope they get paid so that they aren't taken up with things like worrying about money so they can give their time ministering to others.
I don't know what the Catholic or Anglican churches do but am talking about many other churches. I have never heard a pastor going where he is told to. The individual goes where they feel God is calling them and where there's an opening.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 16, 2015 5:45:05 GMT -5
No Christian ministers do not go where they are told to go. Evangelists go where God calls them. Missionaries go where they feel God is calling them. If a church wants a pastor they will pray about it and approach a person and ask them. If the person feels God is calling them they will go, if they don't then they won't go. Some churches have a house but a lot don't these days. A worker is worthy of his hire. . I don't know what the Catholic or Anglican churches do but am talking about many other churches. I have never heard a pastor going where he is told to. The individual goes where they feel God is calling them and where there's an opening. Yes many Christian ministers do go where they are told to go, and they get given a place to live, and a wage. And if they go out with a calling from God that's good, and of they go without pay that's good too, only God knows their hearts. But you can't say anything about the workers when your own ministers are taken care of financially. The apostles and deciples didn't have much at all, from what I've read, they mean that God took care of them whilst they were out preaching. And people would have given them food and lodging and clothing. Not a salaried wage. But regardless, there are good and bad everywhere. And there are true ministers of God and false ministers of God in every denomination. And God will judge every one of them.
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Post by magpie on Dec 16, 2015 6:15:55 GMT -5
Paul was refering to himself and Barny,as the only ones who had to work for a living..This is in writing to the Corinthians? As the others,Apostles,desciples were able to take their wives on their mission travels? Can anyone tell me why Nathan B wont read the Web I gave him on the history as to when celibacy was introduced into the RCC priesthood? I urge all to read it,Nathan has not even given any indication of recognition of the article even though I encouraged him to more than once.
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Post by jondough on Dec 16, 2015 9:05:14 GMT -5
If the married workers with children are easy situation as you think... We would have many married workers with children among us. Bill and his wife let the friends raised up their daughter so they could continue in the work to the end. I talked to Christies' son about having his parents as workers in Hawaii were NOT easy.
Jesus NEVER meant to make the life of his servants to be burdensome, too stressful for the family... A worker's life is VERY stressful as it is already... Can you imagine having/pleasing the wife, and kids to go with it can drive a person up the walls, going crazy fast.... caring for the churches, feeding the lambs and sheep, seeking the lost sheep.
Paul, an unmarried apostle had seen and witnessed married apostles among their ranks and this is what he wrote in I Cor. 7:31-33 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife—
Nathan, I know what your trying to say. I understand completely. It's hard for a married man to give his whole heart to God when he has a wife and family. Because he has to put their needs first. My uncle said he never married because he wanted to put God first and wouldn't be able to be a husband as he had to go out preaching and just go off. He lived rough at first for a long time. Not many wives would put up with that. Then when he did work and get a flat, he worked as a rat catcher on a low wage and lived in one small room in Liverpool with a shared bathroom and kitchen. He said he didn't want anything from this world, and that's not a life that many women who want a family would consider. He gave his life to God. And he wanted to bring the kingdom of God to others, this was his priority in his life. So he denied this life and went lay preaching. I know exactly what my uncle mean't. When a person has a calling, then they must go with what's right in their heart. The more we deny in this life, the stronger we become in God. And preachers who don't marry, want to give their all. And they can't do that when they have a family. Because they have to go where God leads them. And in their hearts this calling comes first. My uncle preached until he was an old man. But he always said it was good to marry, it just want right for him. Because he wanted to give God his all. Nathan would think that your Uncle was not saved unless he found the Workers. If he died without finding the Worikers then he is going to burn for all eternity dispite giving his entire life to God.
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Post by Grant on Dec 16, 2015 9:28:26 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with the congregation paying a pastor, Maryhig. Like I said the Bible says the worker is worthy of his hire. Did the apostles live by begging on the streets? They did to start with but I am sure the converts made sure their needs were supplied. How do you think they lived? God gives money so we can help others. He also requires we be good stewards of our money. So you really think God intended us to use our money just for ourselves or to share with others?
Most people in churches do not have a problem supporting a pastor or else they would not do it. You seem confused over the difference between an evangelist, missionary and pastor. The workers started off being evangelists or missionaries but have now mostly taken the role as pastor. I see the apostles as having been evangelists and missionaries not pastors. Where does it say a pastor should not be paid? Evangelists and missionaries go to where they feel called. Do you think someone like Billy Graham, a man who God used greatly would have had someone telling him where to go. If I wanted to go to a particular place i would go. A pastor is not a missionary or evangelist. A pastor has a choice where they go a worker does not.
You certainly judge men and women of God who devote their lives to serving Him. You somehow seem to think they should live in poverty. I am sure God never intended us to live in poverty. From what i read you don't have any workers or ministers in your group? Why not? If you had a full time pastor or elder would you not support him or would you expect him to work to support himself.
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Post by faune on Dec 16, 2015 23:32:38 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I've always said the 2x2's were more like the Roman Catholic Church regarding its clergy due to embracing the teachings of the Early Church Fathers on celibacy which evolved around church traditions that were held above scripture itself with little support from the Bible. By the way, I did notice you couldn't support your argument with any scriptures from the N.T. However, there are scriptures relating to this subject in the N.T. ~ they just don't support it, but rather condemn it and relate it to being a "doctrine of devils." In other words, such teaching promotes sexual crimes, such as CSA, along with cover-ups of all kinds of sexual perversity, which claiming to be "the one true church." The Vaudois/Paul's converts in Rome and the RCC/Peter converts in Acts 2 was one Universal church in the 1st century.... The Vaudois/Paul's converts stays true to Jesus apostolic celibacy ministry... The RCC eventually departed from Jesus apostolic celibacy after the bishops/church elders in Rome took over celibacy priesthood/ministry. The 2x2 is pattern after Jesus and the apostles apostolic celibacy ministry NOT the RCC bishops celibacy priesthood/ministry.There were more unmarried apostles than married apostles.... married apostles/workers have their usefulness in the ministry. I hope and pray someday the overseers will allow some married workers without children back in the work. I back up with scriptures of Jesus and apostles celibate below link.Was Jesus married or Celibate? 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/190/jesus-married Nathan ~ Are you aware of the fact that married workers could be found in the 2x2 group up until 1962 and some of them had children which were raised by the friends? This section from the earlier cited article deals with when the "Worker Rules" change within the 2x2's and the celibacy requirement became mandatory from then on. ~
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Post by faune on Dec 16, 2015 23:37:55 GMT -5
I finally found the article I was lookng for regarding when marriage was forbidden for overseers and the story relating to Jack Carroll and a certain female sister worker who wanted to marry, but were denied the right as an overseer. Here's that link for your information from Cherie's TTT site, Chapter 11. 1914 - 1919 Here's the quote relating to the above finding. Also, please note that at this meeting of the workers in July 1930 in West Hanney, England. It was attended by 16 Overseers. Besides the ruling against overseers being allowed to marry, it was also agreed that the past history or FAMILY FEUD between George Walker and Jack Carroll of the 2x2's was to be buried at this joint meeting of overseers in July 1930. (PLEASE NOTE: The decision to bury the history of their founder, Wm. Irvine, was made in the early 1920's after Irvine's final excommunication and his move to Jerusalem in 1919. See Chapter 11 in Cherie's book on TTT on Wm. Irvine. Table of Contents shown below:
World War I officially began in August, 1914 and ended November 11, 1918 Wm. Irvine's Growing Discontent The Workers’ Growing Discontent The Founder is Rejected - The Scandal 1914 - The Crisis - Irvine is Forced to Step Down The Living Witness Doctrine Ed Cooney's Renunciation The Workers Regroup The Impossible Questions Who Would Take Irvine's Place? The Workers Take Charge The Purge Erasing the Memory of Wm Irvine Ask a Worker: Who Was Wm. Irvine?
www.tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/america.php
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Post by faune on Dec 17, 2015 0:09:06 GMT -5
Here's the statement surrounding the supposedly unanimously vote to bury the history of the 2x2's by the overseers at this July 1930 World Conference in West Hanney, England. However, what it really pertained to was the "family feud" between George Walker and Jack Carroll and their need to "bury the hatchet" between them in the Eastern and Western regions of the USA and move forward. ~ Please Note: The decision to bury Wm. Irvine's memory was made in the early 1920's after his excommunication and Irvine had moved to Jerusalem in 1919. www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/11wmibook.php Chapter 11 ~ Wm. Irvine's Discontent & Excommunication
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 1:50:51 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with the congregation paying a pastor, Maryhig. Like I said the Bible says the worker is worthy of his hire. Did the apostles live by begging on the streets? They did to start with but I am sure the converts made sure their needs were supplied. How do you think they lived? God gives money so we can help others. He also requires we be good stewards of our money. So you really think God intended us to use our money just for ourselves or to share with others? Most people in churches do not have a problem supporting a pastor or else they would not do it. You seem confused over the difference between an evangelist, missionary and pastor. The workers started off being evangelists or missionaries but have now mostly taken the role as pastor. I see the apostles as having been evangelists and missionaries not pastors. Where does it say a pastor should not be paid? Evangelists and missionaries go to where they feel called. Do you think someone like Billy Graham, a man who God used greatly would have had someone telling him where to go. If I wanted to go to a particular place i would go. A pastor is not a missionary or evangelist. A pastor has a choice where they go a worker does not. You certainly judge men and women of God who devote their lives to serving Him. You somehow seem to think they should live in poverty. I am sure God never intended us to live in poverty. From what i read you don't have any workers or ministers in your group? Why not? If you had a full time pastor or elder would you not support him or would you expect him to work to support himself. You and I will have to disagree on that one. I don't believe it's right to earn a money for doing Gods work. And I don't mean that all those pastors are bad people, as I told you before, i believe that there is good and bad everywhere. I believe that the religions are wrong. Jesus said of Paul, I will show him how much he must suffer for my sake. And suffer he did. 1 Corinthians 4 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. The more we deny the world, and suffer the things that come with doing so, the stronger we become in God. That's why Paul was a powerhouse in God. Because he denied himself and his own will, and let Christ live. He turned away and denied the world. And the things he used to do, he counted as dung The last shall be first and the first shall be last. As for us not having a minister, we are a small meeting. And God has picked the elders within it although they don't can themselves anything. They are strong in God and don't need any man to appoint them with a name. And they count themselves equal to the rest of us. As for Billy Graham. No man of God, would have millions whilst they're are poor in the world. I'm sure many here who love God, would find it hard to keep millions in the bank when there are poor about. When Jesus met the young rich man, who had said he'd followed all the commandments from his youth. Jesus said, yet you lack one thing, sell all that you have and give it to the poor. The young man was sorrowful, because he was very rich. His deciples questioned this asking how is this possible? Jesus replied. With God all things are possible. And with God in your heart, money will mean nothing. His spirit overcomes the love of money. So it is possible with God. Because with God, excess money will be gone. You can't serve God and Mammon!
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 2:06:26 GMT -5
Nathan, I know what your trying to say. I understand completely. It's hard for a married man to give his whole heart to God when he has a wife and family. Because he has to put their needs first. My uncle said he never married because he wanted to put God first and wouldn't be able to be a husband as he had to go out preaching and just go off. He lived rough at first for a long time. Not many wives would put up with that. Then when he did work and get a flat, he worked as a rat catcher on a low wage and lived in one small room in Liverpool with a shared bathroom and kitchen. He said he didn't want anything from this world, and that's not a life that many women who want a family would consider. He gave his life to God. And he wanted to bring the kingdom of God to others, this was his priority in his life. So he denied this life and went lay preaching. I know exactly what my uncle mean't. When a person has a calling, then they must go with what's right in their heart. The more we deny in this life, the stronger we become in God. And preachers who don't marry, want to give their all. And they can't do that when they have a family. Because they have to go where God leads them. And in their hearts this calling comes first. My uncle preached until he was an old man. But he always said it was good to marry, it just want right for him. Because he wanted to give God his all. Nathan would think that your Uncle was not saved unless he found the Workers. If he died without finding the Worikers then he is going to burn for all eternity dispite giving his entire life to God. JD, if that is so, then that would be a shame. Because only God knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, or what hell is for that matter! And that accounts for all of us, whatever denomination we are in, or what we believe, only God knows the depths of everyone's heart. How do we know another's heart. How can we judge who is and who isn't going to heaven or hell? We can't, we're not God. We're only flesh.
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Post by Grant on Dec 17, 2015 3:29:33 GMT -5
I do not believe that the more we suffer the stronger we grow in God. He promises life more abundantly. The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience etc. Joy is part of the fruits of the spirit. The joy of the Lord is our strength. Jesus suffered so that we will have abundant life. Some people cut themselves, others carry large life size crosses on their backs because they believe that is suffering for Christ. He said my burden is easy and my yoke is light. If we are always suffering and not enjoying the abundant life He has given us then we need to ask why?
Who told you that Billy Graham is wealthy and has lots of money in the bank? How do you know he hasn't given millions to the poor. He has lived on the same property for the last 60 or 70 years. He has spent money building a Bible college so people can study the Word of God. He could have spent it on himself but he didn't. To me he was a man who God had used greatly.
It does not worry me if some people are blessed with money. I say good on them. Some people waste their money and never get ahead because they are poor stewards with their money.
How does your group fulfill the great commission of going out into all the world and preaching the Gospel as we are commanded. Where are those in your church group who devote their lives to preaching the Gospel? You don't think highly of those in churches who do. When you say religions are you meaning Christianity or other religions?
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 3:47:42 GMT -5
I do not believe that the more we suffer the stronger we grow in God. He promises life more abundantly. The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience etc. Joy is part of the fruits of the spirit. The joy of the Lord is our strength. Jesus suffered so that we will have abundant life. Some people cut themselves, others carry large life size crosses on their backs because they believe that is suffering for Christ. He said my burden is easy and my yoke is light. If we are always suffering and not enjoying the abundant life He has given us then we need to ask why? Who told you that Billy Graham is wealthy and has lots of money in the bank? How do you know he hasn't given millions to the poor. He has lived on the same property for the last 60 or 70 years. He has spent money building a Bible college so people can study the Word of God. He could have spent it on himself but he didn't. To me he was a man who God had used greatly. It does not worry me if some people are blessed with money. I say good on them. Some people waste their money and never get ahead because they are poor stewards with their money. How does your group fulfill the great commission of going out into all the world and preaching the Gospel as we are commanded. Where are those in your church group who devote their lives to preaching the Gospel? You don't think highly of those in churches who do. When you say religions are you meaning Christianity or other religions? Suffering is self denial. The more we deny ourselves and the sins within, the stronger we become in God. Because it's the sins that we have that hold us back from God. Jesus said that we must deny ourselves. You can't follow Jesus and the world! Jesus clearly tells is to separate from the world and deny ourselves. That's in the bible. Wealth is of the world. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. As for any person who belongs to God, not just billy Graham, wealth should mean nothing to them. It's easy giving out of your plenty, its not so easy giving out of very little. As for our people, we all talk about God to whenever we get a chance to speak to anyone. Whether it be in the street, in the supermarket anywhere. And we help where we can. We are preaching the gospel. And it says in the bible that we are reconciled to God through the death of Jesus, but we are saved by his life. I'm going by the bible, I'm not making it up myself!
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Post by Grant on Dec 17, 2015 3:54:30 GMT -5
Suffering and sin are different. When you refrain from sinning do you see that as suffering? I don't. It is healthy and for our own benefit not to say, sleep around, steal, commit crimes,:swear, get drunk, take drugs.
Who said Billy Graham is wealthy? How do you know what he gives away?
Talking to people about Jesus is not preaching the Gospel. Nor is it going to the ends of the world preaching the Gospel.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 4:01:21 GMT -5
Suffering and sin are different. When you refrain from sinning do you see that as suffering? I don't. It is healthy and for our own benefit not to say, sleep around, steal, commit crimes,:swear, get drunk, take drugs. Who said Billy Graham is wealthy? How do you know what he gives away? Talking to people about Jesus is not preaching the Gospel. Nor is it going to the ends of the world preaching the Gospel. You say about the fruits of the spirit, yet you miss the bit before that out Galatians 5 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which arethese; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. What do you think that we have to deny? And Whos judging who now? How do you know that what we say to people isn't preaching the gospel, you don't know us at all! And apparently billy Graham had a net worth of 25 million. But his life is between him and God!
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Post by Grant on Dec 17, 2015 4:19:36 GMT -5
I said talking about God is not preaching and not going to the ends if the world preaching. That is not judging that is restating what the Bible is saying. I did not miss the verses about the works of the flesh I mentioned them. I said that not doing these things is not suffering, it is for our emotional wellbeing not to do these things.
Agsin, I have no problem with people having money. I say great if they have been blessed with money. Jesus said he came to give us life more abundant.
I doubt that is money that Billy G has in bank. It includes the Bible College he built, accommodation and so on there not for himself but for people to learn about the Bible
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 4:37:19 GMT -5
I said talking about God is not preaching and not going to the ends if the world preaching. That is not judging that is restating what the Bible is saying. I did not miss the verses about the works of the flesh I mentioned them. I said that not doing these things is not suffering, it is for our emotional wellbeing not to do these things. Agsin, I have no problem with people having money. I say great if they have been blessed with money. Jesus said he came to give us life more abundant. I doubt that is money that Billy G has in bank. It includes the Bible College he built, accommodation and so on there not for himself but for people to learn about the Bible I believe what Jesus said Luke 9 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? The Wealth of the world is Mammon, the wealth of God is the spirit! I'll believe what's right in my heart, as you will in yours. And God will judge us both as only he knows our hearts!
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Post by Grant on Dec 17, 2015 5:09:15 GMT -5
It says you cannot serve God and mammon. Because a person has money does not mean they serve it. Billy G serves God. He uses the money for furthering the kingdom. We have no idea what kind of lifestyle he lives. I do know he lived his life for God. He gave his life to preaching the Gospel.
He has lived in a "modest log home since 1956." Hardly a man who spends wealth on himself.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 17, 2015 7:49:02 GMT -5
It says you cannot serve God and mammon. Because a person has money does not mean they serve it. Billy G serves God. He uses the money for furthering the kingdom. We have no idea what kind of lifestyle he lives. I do know he lived his life for God. He gave his life to preaching the Gospel. He has lived in a "modest log home since 1956." Hardly a man who spends wealth on himself. Enuf, it says in the bible that we have to deny our own sins. If they are things we don't do, then they're not our sins. You have to do what's right in your heart before God, and I have to do what's right in mine. I noticed on the list that i quoted from Galatians 5 that Paul said it is wrong to cause strife. I've taken that to myself. It is wrong for me to go on and on before God. I do believe in my heart that the way I believe is right, but I shouldn't have gone on about it.
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