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Post by joanna on Nov 22, 2015 21:25:23 GMT -5
BobWilliston How to differentiate between prudishness and modesty or is it there no difference? Certainly there are hang-ups at both ends of the sex-spectrum: those whose fixation on this topic promotes extreme censorship and those whose fixation on the topic opposes censorship. Would not a moderate approach be the healthier? this does have relevance to the topic of this thread, as homosexuality is an ongoing commentary in the public sphere and often involves people revealing very private insights.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 21:53:51 GMT -5
Yes, I can. But the problem is, you wouldn't accept it as proof. You'd only go off on a wild tangent about something else, which I'm not interested in following. You've taken it too long to show us... so, I say you don't have the three examples, bob.I think this might provide the proof you are looking for. This clearly demonstrates that homosexual acts are ok with God. You might even consider sharing this with that group which you belong to which is studying homosexuality and scripture. It's quite profound really. Matt10 youtu.be/KUOt9ZjrGqc
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 22:30:39 GMT -5
I know you think. I happen to know something YOU don't think. You don't know God! If you did, you wouldn't say the things you do! pays to run a mile from those who know they know more than others. by their fruits we shall know them, not by what they say
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Post by joanna on Nov 22, 2015 22:37:32 GMT -5
@matt10 he of the green finger in above video is a character ( & an avid gardener?).
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 22:58:44 GMT -5
BobWilliston How to differentiate between prudishness and modesty or is it there no difference? Certainly there are hang-ups at both ends of the sex-spectrum: those whose fixation on this topic promotes extreme censorship and those whose fixation on the topic opposes censorship. Would not a moderate approach be the healthier? this does have relevance to the topic of this thread, as homosexuality is an ongoing commentary in the public sphere and often involves people revealing very private insights. Certainly there are people with hang-ups at both ends of the spectrum. That will undoubtedly always be the case. I personally shy away from advising a "moderate" approach because moderate means a lot of different things to a different people. Probably something like an "equitable" approach seems a bit easier to handle. That said, I don't think we as a society are anywhere near treating same-sex relationships equally with heterosexual relationships. No one on the block shows any curiosity about my marriage -- but the gay guy down the street can be a topic of neighborly discussion. If outrageous and flamboyant behaviors are the tradition for Mardi Gras, are we as comfortably with the same with respect to gays? I think most people who complain about sexual behavior do so because they either (1) think it's contagious, or (2) believe they have authority over others' morality. Prudishness comes when the number (2) group don't want to accept the public modesty of people they associate with. They attach something sexual, thus obscene, when people don't abide by their own modesty code. Some Muslims are prudishly, but not appropriately, offended upon seeing a woman's hair exposed in public. Some Americans are prudishly offended upon seeing young women in bikinis at the beach. I remember when high school boys were suspended for growing sideburns -- it was a display of some kind of sexually deviant intention, from what I could gather. But society has a way of declaring things immodest after they've been considered modest for a long time. When I was a kid, no one went swimming unless they wore the equivalent of a speedo, or nothing at all. Now a male is totally scoffed at if his swim suit exposes any thigh. It used to be that young men could wear jeans that fit -- now they have to be baggy so no one can detect a "profile". A lot of job requirements rein in outlandish dress requirements too. When I was working in the state senate I knew a few young ladies who were sent home to change because they didn't meet the dress code. But, living in Las Vegas, it is rather fun to go down to the Strip and watch the tourists -- of all kinds.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 23, 2015 2:33:52 GMT -5
I have to agree with magpie, dmmichgood. The behavior of some of those participants in the gay mardi gras' is unnecessary. I cannot understand how the flashes of (what I consider to be) obscene displays, as shown on the news, advance their cause. I have discussed this with my children and they agree with your view- "what harm does this do?" > I believe there are standards which need to be upheld. Though these differ depending on cultures ie clothing in some cultures is intended to cover up areas which are displayed in other cultures; but when people are out in public with little clothing in cultures which do deem nudity unacceptable, and are engaging in what would appear to verge on pornographic displays; it just seems that 'anything goes'. The term 'modesty' is one which seems destined for 'the dead word pile', I personally believe it has merit. Another source of disagreement with my offspring is the need for young women (especially young!) to dress modestly (mine do but stand up for those who choose not to). Feminists are encouraging women to wear as little as they want because the 'she turned me on' excuse for rape is not valid. Whilst i agree with this, it just seems sensible to apply risk management as who knows how deviants will respond to scantily clad women, especially walking alone. Sex is used to sell products, books, concepts and now lifestyles. My view can easily be dismissed with the 'old-fashioned' tag but this openness just appears to have contributed to greater confusion and angst in regard to the negative implications of humans' sexual interactions: unwanted pregnancies; quick turnover of partnerships; one-night stands etc Children are exposed to "sex" from too early an age and the term 'childhood innocence' seems to have already been tossed on the dead word pile. First of all, I wasn't taking about the Mardi gras' parades like in New Orleans & Rio which has been around for a long, long time. I was talking about the "gay pride" parades lately around the world.
Because it has only been the past few decades that the LGBT or GLBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) community has been able to be free from actual running the chance of being arrested that they are able to celebrate that freedom by having "gay pride" parades.
There are those of us who are their friends celebrate that freedom with them! It is recognition for the equality that all people should be able to enjoy.
I am a "Feminist" and I don't see "Feminist"s encouraging women to wear as little as they want! For one thing, we have a lot of important issues to be concerned, such as the wage gap between men & women.
If your daughter were raped do you think the 'she turned me on' excuse for the rape be valid in your eyes? A woman could be raped wearing a burka, -the cause of rape is more about the ability of a man wanting to control a woman that it does about sex.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 23, 2015 2:37:17 GMT -5
God gives his people understanding, why is what I say making you a liar? You might know all that bible stuff, but I can tell by the disgusting cartoons you have put in the humour thread in the past that you don't know God! You take yourself far too seriously. Just because something is not explained in the Bible doesn't mean it was not so. There's no mention of China in the Bible -- but somehow Christians can believe what ancient Chinese wrote about themselves. Why is it that Christians think everything there is to know about ancient Hebrews is ALL in the Bible? Just because I know something about ancient Israel that you don't know about doesn't make anything I ever said wrong, so I consider such platitudes to the contrary to be an accusation of lying. Either that's your problem with me, or you think all the ancient Hebrew scholars were liars -- except for the few who wrote the conflicting stories in the OT. What about all the virgins who were given to the Israelites for the taking -- God didn't order them given to single men. So did they marry them, or just commit adultery or fornication with them? Sooner or later some things just have to add up. Otherwise the Bible can't be anything more than a fairy tale. Hi, firstly, no I haven't got a problem with you. And no, I'm not calling you a liar. I don't know why you think that? I can see in the old testament myself that some had more than one wife. You said that Jesus never even suggested only one wife. What I'm saying is that Jesus did suggest that a man should have one wife. (Your quote is below) Quote: Jesus NEVER even "suggested" only one wife. That was Paul, who was recommending obedience to Pagan Roman law. Jesus said that from the beginning God made one man and one woman. Not one man and a hareem! Matthew 19 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Above in Matthew 19, Jesus says that a man should leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife, not wives! Making them one flesh. So I'm not trying to say you're a liar, I'm just saying that I believe that Jesus suggested that a man has one wife!
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 23, 2015 3:18:50 GMT -5
Hi, firstly, no I haven't got a problem with you. I have no problem with you either -- though I understand you say I don't know God and my jokes are disgusting. No, you didn't call me a liar. You just kept quoting your favorite verse, which had nothing to do with what I was saying. I assumed, and I believe correctly so, that you were suggesting I didn't know what I was talking about. See -- you agree with me now. But now you have to explain why all those righteous people had more than one wife. Either Jesus meant "each wife individually", or the Hebrews always had it all wrong. I didn't make this up. I'm okay with the discrepancy, but you seem to think it's not a discrepancy. Of course not "wives". There was never a commandment to have multiple wives. There wasn't even a commandment to have one wife. A man is free to have no wife if he wants. You're reading modern Christian doctrine into Hebrew culture. Okay, you contradicted my "fact" -- but now you agree I was telling the truth. In fact: plural marriage was NEVER extinguished from Christianity -- just in the denominations descended from the Roman church. There are Christians in countries where the Roman Empire never held control that have Christian men with more than one wife. I also know of a 2x2 man who had two wives -- both serving dinner to the visiting workers.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 23, 2015 3:51:02 GMT -5
Hi, firstly, no I haven't got a problem with you. I have no problem with you either -- though I understand you say I don't know God and my jokes are disgusting. No, you didn't call me a liar. You just kept quoting your favorite verse, which had nothing to do with what I was saying. I assumed, and I believe correctly so, that you were suggesting I didn't know what I was talking about. See -- you agree with me now. But now you have to explain why all those righteous people had more than one wife. Either Jesus meant "each wife individually", or the Hebrews always had it all wrong. I didn't make this up. I'm okay with the discrepancy, but you seem to think it's not a discrepancy. Of course not "wives". There was never a commandment to have multiple wives. There wasn't even a commandment to have one wife. A man is free to have no wife if he wants. You're reading modern Christian doctrine into Hebrew culture. Okay, you contradicted my "fact" -- but now you agree I was telling the truth. In fact: plural marriage was NEVER extinguished from Christianity -- just in the denominations descended from the Roman church. There are Christians in countries where the Roman Empire never held control that have Christian men with more than one wife. I also know of a 2x2 man who had two wives -- both serving dinner to the visiting workers. But, as i said, I was referring to what Jesus said, not the old testament. Anyway, I was looking earlier online at what the Jewish people believe. And they say that a rabbi 1000 years ago changed marriage to one man and one woman. The way that God originally intended. What I have read is that, Moses allowed multiple wives because they already had multiple wives. But that wasn't Gods way in the beginning. In fact they sounded like Jesus and said that God created one man and one woman They also say that Abraham had more than one wife because he was tricked by laban, and that he would have only had Rachel. And that Isaac had one wife only, and that the old testament way was mostly one wife. Also, yes, I do believe that some of you're jokes are disgusting. I don't believe it's right to joke about the crucifixion of Jesus. He was brutally murdered. And I don't see any fun in joking about torture. I feel that you don't know God, because if you did, you wouldn't put jokes like that on the internet. You would have a fear of doing that. And you would respect him and you wouldn't do jokes about Jesus or God in the way that you do. And I saw one which involved a priest and an alter boy and it was vile. I don't look at the humour thread anymore because it makes me feel sick in the stomach at times. But, that is my choice. And, I suppose if you don't believe in God, then you won't understand how I feel.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2015 5:17:21 GMT -5
nathan, can you prove God didn't create gay people ? The Bible tells us God created Adam and Eve in His/their image. Adam wasn't a homosexual and Eve wasn't a lesbian, they weren't gay when He created them in the Garden of Eden. God/Elohim said Gen. 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”So is God male or female ? "Let us make mankind in our image" Also that does NOT prove that God didn't create gay people !
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Post by joanna on Nov 23, 2015 7:19:50 GMT -5
The younger generations are tending to emphasise their right to wear as little as they like and in fact, scantily dressed women have conducted demonstrations holding placards with "I am not asking for it" and "this doesn't mean 'yes'" . During a discussion with my daughter about this (as previously mentioned she dresses reasonably respectfully most of the time) she asked me the same question you did in your post, and my answer was of course I would not blame her. I added that just as the person who has refused to use the pedestrian crossing and is knocked over by a dangerous driver whilst traversing a busy road is not to blame; they have however increased their chances of being harmed. Despite the existence of road safety laws there is no way of predicting which driver may exceed the speed limit in a stretch of road without a designated crossing for pedestrians. Whilst someone may also fail to stop at the crossing, the odds of this happening are less. Modest dress ( and I do not mean the 'uniform' we were pressured to wear when in the meetings) just seems to be a sensible part of risk management when it is impossible to predetermine who is a potential rapist and we know the justice system has frequently failed to incarcerate repeat offenders.
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Post by Lee on Nov 23, 2015 8:18:40 GMT -5
Some of the scriptural instances were certainly about something other than homosexuality. The townspeople of sodom and the similar case at gibeah of benjamin in judges were bent on rape and bodily harm. Thats not to say that sexual immorality of any type is ok by the bible but its just as wrong to claim that god hates homosexuals and for heterosexuals or even celibates to think of themselves as not being sexual transgressors or as living righteously because not one of us does live righteously or even close to it. God sees adultery and fornication as wrong too but as jesus said - 'he that is without sin among you let him first cast a stone' and that just to look at a woman and feel lust is committing adultery and to hate is the same as murder. People tend to forget that all are under sin when they read things like the passages in Romans and 1 Corinth. and 1 Timothy - paul is describing every single one of us and not singling out certain sinners as worse or making out that he or his readers are perfect and more righteous than anyone else. Surely we're to be guided by love for one another and not be causing others to stumble thru our passions or greed or any other thing and be open to god's leading and seek him above all else and rather build up others than tear down. Beyond that is between god and each individual and judging peoples souls is something none of us knows enough to do and how will he or she who does not allow mercy for the shortcomings of others expect mercy for their own unworthiness at judgment? So the primary reason for the law was provisional, it points us to Christ, who signifies a more reflexive or reflective study and approach to righteousness and human behavior, an exhaustive one according to scripture. Is there then anything that is concretely wrong about same sex behavior in the same way stealing is universally held to be wrong? Admittedly, some people steal in less than obvious ways, but that's a separate discussion. Is there anything wrong with gayness? Is there anything better about heterosexuality? Is it progress for the human race to make sexuality a peripheral matter, a consequence I believe of gay-hetero equality? Will this mean our becoming less enslaved to elemental things? ... The question before the church today isn't whether gayness can be forgiven but whether its normal and gainful in its own right, and whether the prejudices of old times should be relegated to the dustbin of history.
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Post by rational on Nov 23, 2015 9:19:45 GMT -5
I have to agree with magpie, dmmichgood. The behavior of some of those participants in the gay mardi gras' is unnecessary. I cannot understand how the flashes of (what I consider to be) obscene displays, as shown on the news, advance their cause. I have discussed this with my children and they agree with your view- "what harm does this do?" > I agree that there is some outrageous behavior but some of it is over reaction after living a life of repression. If you visit places that are known to be "gay friendly" (Miami, Provincetown, Fire Island, for example), the overt sexual behavior is often exaggerated because the people visiting have arrived from a much more repressive environment and this is the one time in the year they can act as they wish and be accepted. On the other hand, as you children noted, what is the harm? If you are a merchant it could drive some customers away but it is far more likely to attract people to see the spectacle. And of course, no one is forcing people to go and watch! This could indeed be the case. I am not sure if feminists are encouraging people to wear as little as they want but are saying they should be able to wear what they want without repercussions.People who have researched this know how rapists react. Most claim they do not remember what the victim was wearing. It would seem that most victims are chosen because of their vulnerability, not because they are acting in a specific way or wearing clothing that someone might consider sexually provocative. If clothing was actually a factor beaches, public swimming pools, etc. would be showing a much higher incidence of rape. This simply is not the case. Your view is just not old fashioned enough! For example, in the 1600 children were exposed to sex at a much earlier age. They lived with animals that copulated and in very crowded quarters where the parents might engage in sex in the same bed as the children. D'Emilio and Freedman have explored this is Intimate Matters: A History of Sexuality in America. It is not that children are being exposed to sex earlier but that they are being exposed to a air-brushed and fantasied version of sex that does not reflect the reality of adult sexual relations. Terms like 'childhood innocence' reflect the idea that sex is something that should be hidden from children and is a corrupting factor. It is corrupting when it's existence is denied and the lack of sound/objective/accurate information makes children and young adults vulnerable to being manipulated by adults who, in the view of the victim, have the answers. Without the permission to say "No" and accurate and meaningful knowledge the child has no way to counter the offender's false claims.
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Post by matisse on Nov 23, 2015 10:06:05 GMT -5
So is God male or female ? "Let us make mankind in our image" Also that does NOT prove that God didn't create gay people ! Let me ask you this, why would God create gay people? What's the purpose? for many centuries they lived in fear for their lives if they ever found out of their sexual acts behavior. God hates the homosexual sexual acts of behavior, so why would He create them?Why would "god" create the clown fish (just one example) to be able to change its gender, including sexual function depending on the circumstances of the school? There are myriad examples of gender bending and flexible sexual function like this in nature. Why would "god" create anumals who who engage in sexual practices you might find unspeakable? These could hardly be the work of a "sexually-repressed" creator! Why would "god's" imagination and appetite for "abominable" sexual arrangements run dry when he got around to making humans?
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Post by Gene on Nov 23, 2015 10:20:22 GMT -5
Let me ask you this, why would God create gay people? Show tunes?
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Post by jondough on Nov 23, 2015 10:24:58 GMT -5
Here are just a few interesting statistics on animals - Also created by God:
Giraffes Gay sex accounts for 94% of all observed sexual activity in giraffes. Male giraffes have a unique way of flirting (and to occasionally show dominance) that is seen nowhere else on Earth. It is ‘necking’. Two males stand side by side, and gently rub their necks on each other’s body, head, neck, loins and thighs. In some sessions this goes on for as long as hour. This leads to sexual arousal. And while necking can sometimes lead to orgasm in of itself, sometimes they mount each other to finish each other off. But this isn’t what a couple of guy giraffes do when the girls aren’t around. With both male and female giraffes present, males like to start necking with other males and often disregard any females present. 2. Bonobo Female bonobos have sex in a way that in many aspects is unique to the species: These chimpanzees rub their genitals together. This is known as GG-rubbing (for genito-genital rubbing). Some scientists believe the particular shape and location of the bonobo’s genitals have evolved specifically for lesbian rather than straight sex. 3. Flamingos Flamingos have monogamous partners, and these can include two males, two females or a male and a female. In one such example at Edinburgh zoo, a pair of male flamingos adopted a fluffy grey newborn chick after it was knocked out of the nest by its parents. 4. Dolphins Three quarters of all bottlenose dolphins are in same-sex pair-bonds, and many of them mate for life. On the death of a partner, some biologists have witnessed a long ‘mourning’ period. If they do decide to search for a new male companion, this will normally be unsuccessful, as most males will already be paired. But, if he can find another ‘widower’, the two may couple up. Some female Spinner dolphins also sometimes ‘ride’ on each other’s dorsal fin. Incidentally, an ‘orgy’ of same-sex behavior in a dolphin is known as a ‘wuzzle’. How horrendously cute.
There are many more..just posted a couple examples
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Post by xna on Nov 23, 2015 10:40:38 GMT -5
What was god thinking when she made all those bisexual / perfect flowers? Seems like there was some experimenting going on.
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Post by rational on Nov 23, 2015 12:54:26 GMT -5
Let me ask you this, why would God create gay people? Show tunes? That just pushes the question off. Why would god create show tunes?
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Post by matisse on Nov 23, 2015 14:45:00 GMT -5
Here are just a few interesting statistics on animals - Also created by God: Giraffes Gay sex accounts for 94% of all observed sexual activity in giraffes. Male giraffes have a unique way of flirting (and to occasionally show dominance) that is seen nowhere else on Earth. It is ‘necking’. Two males stand side by side, and gently rub their necks on each other’s body, head, neck, loins and thighs. In some sessions this goes on for as long as hour. This leads to sexual arousal. And while necking can sometimes lead to orgasm in of itself, sometimes they mount each other to finish each other off. But this isn’t what a couple of guy giraffes do when the girls aren’t around. With both male and female giraffes present, males like to start necking with other males and often disregard any females present. 2. Bonobo Female bonobos have sex in a way that in many aspects is unique to the species: These chimpanzees rub their genitals together. This is known as GG-rubbing (for genito-genital rubbing). Some scientists believe the particular shape and location of the bonobo’s genitals have evolved specifically for lesbian rather than straight sex. 3. Flamingos Flamingos have monogamous partners, and these can include two males, two females or a male and a female. In one such example at Edinburgh zoo, a pair of male flamingos adopted a fluffy grey newborn chick after it was knocked out of the nest by its parents. 4. Dolphins Three quarters of all bottlenose dolphins are in same-sex pair-bonds, and many of them mate for life. On the death of a partner, some biologists have witnessed a long ‘mourning’ period. If they do decide to search for a new male companion, this will normally be unsuccessful, as most males will already be paired. But, if he can find another ‘widower’, the two may couple up. Some female Spinner dolphins also sometimes ‘ride’ on each other’s dorsal fin. Incidentally, an ‘orgy’ of same-sex behavior in a dolphin is known as a ‘wuzzle’. How horrendously cute. There are many more..just posted a couple examples "Doth not even nature itself teach....?"
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Post by xna on Nov 23, 2015 15:12:36 GMT -5
An observation about sex & religion... In the bible, the woman is portrayed as a promiscuous predator, or harlot. You would think from reading the bible that it's the women who are out hunting for sex & taking advantage of the men. For anyone who has lived on a farm, been married, or had dogs I have found in nature it's is just the opposite.
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Post by magpie on Nov 23, 2015 16:38:58 GMT -5
Nathan B, Just get amongst a collective of the 2x2s ministers,there is it appears so many amongst them who could answer that. Also You could ask the same of a down syndrome,pulsied,sterile or mentally challenged person. 2x2s just can't get away from discussing something as close to their church as homosexuality?
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Post by jondough on Nov 23, 2015 17:13:28 GMT -5
Nathan B, Just get amongst a collective of the 2x2s ministers,there is it appears so many amongst them who could answer that. Also You could ask the same of a down syndrome,pulsied,sterile or mentally challenged person. 2x2s just can't get away from discussing something as close to their church as homosexuality? Do you mean "most 2X2s" ?
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Post by Annan on Nov 23, 2015 18:22:45 GMT -5
If a heterosexual couple engages in anal and/or oral sex, are they considered to have committed a homosexual act?
Is it the sex act that is a sin or who's doing the sex act?
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Post by xna on Nov 23, 2015 18:50:04 GMT -5
If a heterosexual couple engages in anal and/or oral sex, are they considered to have committed a homosexual act? Is it the sex act that is a sin or who's doing the sex act?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2015 18:56:00 GMT -5
If a heterosexual couple engages in anal and/or oral sex, are they considered to have committed a homosexual act? Is it the sex act that is a sin or who's doing the sex act? depends if you think anal/oral sex to be homosexual in nature or not...
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2015 18:59:56 GMT -5
So is God male or female ? "Let us make mankind in our image" Also that does NOT prove that God didn't create gay people ! Let me ask you this, why would God create gay people? What's the purpose? for many centuries they lived in fear for their lives if they ever found out of their sexual acts behavior. God hates the homosexual sexual acts of behavior, so why would He create them?Well it seems that God created homosexual animals nathan. You said "why would God create gay people", well why would God create children with Downs Syndrome ? What the purpose ? If God hates homosexual acts so much why create homosexual animals ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2015 19:07:10 GMT -5
Let me ask you this, why would God create gay people? What's the purpose? for many centuries they lived in fear for their lives if they ever found out of their sexual acts behavior. God hates the homosexual sexual acts of behavior, so why would He create them? Well it seems that God create homosexual animals nathan . You said "why would God create gay people", well why would God create children with Downs Syndrome ? What the purpose ? If God hates homosexual acts so much why create homosexual animals ? everyone forgets that satan can corrupt God creation anytime anywhere anyhow...
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Post by Annan on Nov 23, 2015 19:29:33 GMT -5
If a heterosexual couple engages in anal and/or oral sex, are they considered to have committed a homosexual act? Is it the sex act that is a sin or who's doing the sex act? depends if you think anal/oral sex to be homosexual in nature or not... So if a person considers anal/oral sex to be homosexual in nature, then would heterosexuals who perform anal/oral sex be homosexuals? This is all so absurd.
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