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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 21, 2015 22:38:36 GMT -5
Wally, what you mean is that it lines up with a 2000+ year OLD piece of literature of why things happen & that you should live your life in the same manner?
Do you believe that you should also use that same 2000+ year OLD literature as a guide as to how you live your life?
Have as many wives as you want, with concubines thrown in for good measure, kill your inobedeint child, kill a whole tribe of people, not only the warriors but the old men, the women (except virgins) and children? Christ abandoned killing of sinners, in setting up the church Christ suggested only one wife... Jesus NEVER even "suggested" only one wife. That was Paul, who was recommending obedience to Pagan Roman law.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 21, 2015 23:10:43 GMT -5
Christ abandoned killing of sinners, in setting up the church Christ suggested only one wife... Jesus NEVER even "suggested" only one wife. That was Paul, who was recommending obedience to Pagan Roman law. Yes, I believe that Jesus taught that a man should have only one wife. Matthew 19 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. He clearly says to put away your wife and marry another is wrong. So a man should have one wife.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 21, 2015 23:11:24 GMT -5
Jesus NEVER even "suggested" only one wife. That was Paul, who was recommending obedience to Pagan Roman law. Jesus didn't suggest but he said this In Matthew 19:4-6 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Snap
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2015 23:13:02 GMT -5
live a celibate single life, serve the Lord, other people have done it... How well would you do with that requirement? i'm doing it now never been happier...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2015 23:14:24 GMT -5
Christ abandoned killing of sinners, in setting up the church Christ suggested only one wife... Jesus NEVER even "suggested" only one wife. That was Paul, who was recommending obedience to Pagan Roman law. God spoke through Paul...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2015 23:21:13 GMT -5
mine lines up with 2000+ years of interpretation of scripture, minnesotas lines up with crap written in the last century
Wally, what you mean is that it lines up with a 2000+ year OLD scripture, -a piece of literature of why things supposedly happened 2000years ago & how people were supposed to have to live their lives then.
Do you believe that you should also use that same 2000+ year OLD literature as a guide as to how you live your life today?
In other words, - do you also believe that you can have as many wives as you want, (with concubines thrown in for good measure,) and kill your disobedient child if you so desire?
Also, that you should "not allow a witch to live?"
Also that you should NOT give your ill child or yourself antibiotics because, after all, -they aren't mentioned in that 2000+ years OLD scripture.I already answered some of these from your other post...your repeating yourself
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2015 23:49:14 GMT -5
Based on your response, would it be reasonable for me to conclude that you have no qualifications nor expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture"? Matt10 you can ASSume what you want... I prefer not to assume. I prefer to conclude. That's why, when I read of someone belittling someone else's interpretation of scripture at the expense of their own, I'm moved to enquire as to what is it about them that makes their interpretation more valid. Inevitably there usually isn't anything. I'm therefore left to conclude that each person's interpretation of scripture is as valid as any other's. Or invalid, if you prefer to look at it that way. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2015 23:53:55 GMT -5
Based on your response, would it be reasonable for me to conclude that you have no qualifications nor expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture"? Matt10 so who do you get your qualifications and expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture" from? What leads you to conclude that I have qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation if scripture"? Surely you've realised by now that I believe all scripture to be nothing more than a record of the various ramblings of ancient camel herding men and therefore not something worth trying to interpret? Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 0:05:08 GMT -5
so who do you get your qualifications and expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture" from? What leads you to conclude that I have qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation if scripture"? Surely you've realised by now that I believe all scripture to be nothing more than a record of the various ramblings of ancient camel herding men and therefore not something worth trying to interpret? Matt10 a little hypocritical don't you think then calling others qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture" in to question, in light of what you have posted about your own qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture"?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 0:15:27 GMT -5
Jesus NEVER even "suggested" only one wife. That was Paul, who was recommending obedience to Pagan Roman law. God spoke through Paul... That's what I said. It wasn't Jesus who said that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 0:17:30 GMT -5
How well would you do with that requirement? i'm doing it now never been happier... That's not what I asked. Pretend you're 20 again and think about it, if you remember how it used to be.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 0:23:05 GMT -5
Jesus NEVER even "suggested" only one wife. That was Paul, who was recommending obedience to Pagan Roman law. Yes, I believe that Jesus taught that a man should have only one wife. Matthew 19 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. He clearly says to put away your wife and marry another is wrong. So a man should have one wife. BTW, "Putting away" a wife is not the same thing as "divorcing" a wife. In any case, that doesn't address the situation of plural marriage, which JESUS never addressed. It was common enough in Hebrew society. One wife at a time is a principle adopted by Christians from Pagan Roman law in the first century CE.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 0:24:31 GMT -5
Snap Great minds think alike. It wasn't Paul or the Roman law to have one wife ... It was God's will from the beginning... One man/Adam and One wife/Eve NOT... Adam and Steve... or Adam and Eve with Steve either. One Christ/Bridegroom and One Bride/the Church.Did Uncle Leo tell you that?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 0:26:48 GMT -5
What leads you to conclude that I have qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation if scripture"? Surely you've realised by now that I believe all scripture to be nothing more than a record of the various ramblings of ancient camel herding men and therefore not something worth trying to interpret? Matt10 a little hypocritical don't you think then calling others qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture" in to question, in light of what you have posted about your own qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture"? And who are you to call one up? No one on here is such an expert, though some of the least knowledgeable think they know everything about interpreting scripture.
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Post by rational on Nov 22, 2015 0:28:52 GMT -5
"mine lines up with 2000+ years of interpretation of scripture minnesotas lines up with crap written in the last century Are you sure about this @wally? Isaiah 1 - The sins of Judah compared at all times with the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. What were the sins - rebelling against god, engaging in meaningless religious ritual, ignoring the needs of widows and orphans, being unjust and oppressive to others, committing murder, accepting bribes, etc. Nothing about any sexual activities or even a passing mention of homosexuality. Jeremiah 23 - ...among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah. The actions of the prophets with the adultery, lying and evil of the people of Sodom. In this case sexuality in the form of adultery is mentioned but nothing about homosexuals. Ezekiel 16 - Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.I guess you could say it also lines up with lines up with crap written in the bible. The bible contradicts itself on this point, as it does on many others.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 0:41:32 GMT -5
Did Uncle Leo tell you that? No. It's in the Bible. You can read it for yourself.Well, the Bible changes it's mind from time to time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 0:44:27 GMT -5
What leads you to conclude that I have qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation if scripture"? Surely you've realised by now that I believe all scripture to be nothing more than a record of the various ramblings of ancient camel herding men and therefore not something worth trying to interpret? Matt10 a little hypocritical don't you think then calling others qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture" in to question, in light of what you have posted about your own qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture"? Of course I'm not calling into question the qualifications or expertise of others. I'm merely inviting them to indicate whether they have any qualifications or expertise (and so far no one has indicated any). In order to call into question the qualifications or expertise of others would, I think, require them to have (or at least claim to have) qualifications or expertise to call into question. I hope that clears that up. Matt10
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Post by blandie on Nov 22, 2015 0:51:09 GMT -5
Some of the scriptural instances were certainly about something other than homosexuality. The townspeople of sodom and the similar case at gibeah of benjamin in judges were bent on rape and bodily harm. Thats not to say that sexual immorality of any type is ok by the bible but its just as wrong to claim that god hates homosexuals and for heterosexuals or even celibates to think of themselves as not being sexual transgressors or as living righteously because not one of us does live righteously or even close to it. God sees adultery and fornication as wrong too but as jesus said - 'he that is without sin among you let him first cast a stone' and that just to look at a woman and feel lust is committing adultery and to hate is the same as murder. People tend to forget that all are under sin when they read things like the passages in Romans and 1 Corinth. and 1 Timothy - paul is describing every single one of us and not singling out certain sinners as worse or making out that he or his readers are perfect and more righteous than anyone else. Surely we're to be guided by love for one another and not be causing others to stumble thru our passions or greed or any other thing and be open to god's leading and seek him above all else and rather build up others than tear down. Beyond that is between god and each individual and judging peoples souls is something none of us knows enough to do and how will he or she who does not allow mercy for the shortcomings of others expect mercy for their own unworthiness at judgment?
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Post by rational on Nov 22, 2015 1:29:13 GMT -5
The Bible doesn't contradict on this point read Jude 1:5-8 Somehow I don't see Jude 1 supporting Ezekiel 16.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 2:40:19 GMT -5
a little hypocritical don't you think then calling others qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture" in to question, in light of what you have posted about your own qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture"? And who are you to call one up? No one on here is such an expert, though some of the least knowledgeable think they know everything about interpreting scripture.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 2:54:35 GMT -5
How well would you do with that requirement? i'm doing it now never been happier...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 3:19:15 GMT -5
Yes, I believe that Jesus taught that a man should have only one wife. Matthew 19 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. He clearly says to put away your wife and marry another is wrong. So a man should have one wife. BTW, "Putting away" a wife is not the same thing as "divorcing" a wife. In any case, that doesn't address the situation of plural marriage, which JESUS never addressed. It was common enough in Hebrew society. One wife at a time is a principle adopted by Christians from Pagan Roman law in the first century CE. so are you saying not have one wife but more is not committing adultery? how does that make sense in light of this
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 3:54:40 GMT -5
so are you saying not have one wife but more is not committing adultery? Yes, I am. Adultery occurs when a married person has sex with someone he/she is not married to. In all plural marriage societies that is also the definition of adultery – from ancient times to modern day USA. “Putting away” one’s wife means just sending her away – no divorce or anything, just disappear. And in Hebrew society a woman could not sue for divorce, so remained married to her husband and was not allowed to marry another man because she was married already. Women could not have more than one husband, but men could have more than one wife. Then, because a woman had no means of support, they would have to commit adultery or starve to death. In Matthew the English explanation of that is not clear, as it is in my French Bible, which says that if a man puts his wife away, he will make her susceptible to adultery. So she could marry another. There is a passage in the OT that says exactly that – so she could marry another. I’ll bet no one’s told you about that one.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 3:58:02 GMT -5
Well, the Bible changes it's mind from time to time. Can you give us three examples where the Bible changes about Homosexuality? God's will From the beginning Adam and Eve... Now to Adam and Steve.
That all depends. What would you accept as proof?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 22, 2015 4:15:10 GMT -5
a little hypocritical don't you think then calling others qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture" in to question, in light of what you have posted about your own qualifications or expertise in the field of "the interpretation of scripture"? And who are you to call one up? No one on here is such an expert, though some of the least knowledgeable think they know everything about interpreting scripture. There isn't anyone more knowledgeable than God himself. So if he's in the heart of his people, the highest college degree won't be important and won't give you understanding, a college qualification isn't what God is looking for, it's a humble soft heart, and if people have the holy spirit then they are more learned than all scholars who are trained in bible school, if they don't know God. God will give wisdom and understanding to his people, and we receive it through Christ by the spirit. Matthew 11 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him But regardless, plain and simply Jesus came and taught us how to live. So now he's been and lived it out and taught us, we have no excuse. He's showed us and told us what we have to do. And people have the choice of whether to listen to him or not.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 4:27:30 GMT -5
And who are you to call one up? No one on here is such an expert, though some of the least knowledgeable think they know everything about interpreting scripture. There isn't anyone more knowledgeable than God himself. So if he's in the heart of his people, the highest college degree won't be important and won't give you understanding, a college qualification isn't what God is looking for, it's a humble soft heart, and if people have the holy spirit then they are more learned than all scholars who are trained in bible school, if they don't know God. God will give wisdom and understanding to his people, and we receive it through Christ by the spirit. Matthew 11 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him But regardless, plain and simply Jesus came and taught us how to live. So now he's been and lived it out and taught us, we have no excuse. He's showed us and told us what we have to do. And people have the choice of whether to listen to him or not. So --- God talks to you. Does that make me a liar? I know all that Bible stuff. I was just telling y'all how the world turns, whether God likes it or not.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 22, 2015 4:27:49 GMT -5
Yes, I believe that Jesus taught that a man should have only one wife. Matthew 19 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. He clearly says to put away your wife and marry another is wrong. So a man should have one wife. BTW, "Putting away" a wife is not the same thing as "divorcing" a wife. In any case, that doesn't address the situation of plural marriage, which JESUS never addressed. It was common enough in Hebrew society. One wife at a time is a principle adopted by Christians from Pagan Roman law in the first century CE. I think Jesus quite clearly tells us a man shouldn't have many wives. But one wife and one husband. And that they should become one flesh. That doesn't sound like a man can be married to 4 or 5 wives at the same time! He also said that Moses gave the bill of divorcement because of the hardness of their hearts. But from the beginning it wasn't so. So from the beginning God said one man, one woman one flesh!
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 22, 2015 4:29:52 GMT -5
BTW, "Putting away" a wife is not the same thing as "divorcing" a wife. In any case, that doesn't address the situation of plural marriage, which JESUS never addressed. It was common enough in Hebrew society. One wife at a time is a principle adopted by Christians from Pagan Roman law in the first century CE. I think Jesus quite clearly tells us a man shouldn't have many wives. But one wife and one husband. And that they should become one flesh. That doesn't sound like a man can be married to 4 or 5 wives at the same time! He also said that Moses gave the bill of divorcement because of the hardness of their hearts. But from the beginning it wasn't so. So from the beginning God said one man, one woman one flesh! I know you think. I happen to know something YOU don't think.
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