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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 19, 2015 10:13:33 GMT -5
When a Restoration church claims they follow the the Bible the closest of all Restoration churches regarding the methods and beliefs of the primitive NT church - one would assume they would use the same type bread and wine as Jesus did. But no... I've not heard a good reason yet for workers changing this most important ordinance of Jesus. The excuse about using grape juice so alcoholics arent tempted doesnt hold water. I'm sure there were alcoholics in Jesus day. They use wine in Europe and some other countries...but not in America! The following is interesting...re invention of Welch's grape juice Most United Methodists are aware that one of our practices is the use of unfermented juice of the grape for Holy Communion. While some other Protestant bodies share this practice, the possibility of the practice goes back to the late 19th century and a Methodist dentist named Thomas Bramwell Welch. (See www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html.) Apparently Welch had scruples about the use of wine and had heard of Louis Pasteur's process of pasteurization of milk. Welch was successful in applying the process to grape juice, and he began to use it in his church, where he was a Communion steward.
His son, Dr. Charles Welch, was an enterprising Methodist layman (a dentist, like his father) from southern New Jersey. He marketed the pasteurized grape juice to temperance-minded evangelical Protestants as authentic biblical "wine." As word spread and as the temperance movement grew among evangelical Protestant churches, Welch left dentistry and produced Welch's Grape Juice commercially.
The impact of the temperance movement and the availability of the "unfermented juice of the grape" can traced in the Book of Discipline and actions of the General Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Church of the United Brethren.www.umcdiscipleship.org/resources/changing-wine-into-grape-juice-thomas-and-charles-welch-and-the-transition-
Personally, I figure the Temperance Movement had a lot to do with changing from wine to grape juice in churches worldwide. This online book discusses the worldwide Protestant "Bible Wine" controversy in the 18th and 19th centuries on a single page 109. Pretty interesting. Alcohol and Temperance in Modern History: An International..., Vol 1
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Post by rational on Nov 19, 2015 10:49:27 GMT -5
Isn't the translation in all three gospels "fruit of the vine" without reference to whether it was fermented? There is also the question of whether the yeast would be considered leaven. Some thing that wine would be without the leaven since the the decanted liquid would no longer have the yeast. The same thinking leads to the belief that non-fermented juice must contain the leaven. Of course, pasteurization would have evened the playing floor regarding the leaven in either. When a Restoration church claims they follow the the Bible the closest of all Restoration churches regarding the methods and beliefs of the primitive NT church - one would assume they would use the same type bread and wine as Jesus did. But no... I've not heard a good reason yet for workers changing this most important ordinance of Jesus. The excuse about using grape juice so alcoholics arent tempted doesnt hold water. I'm sure there were alcoholics in Jesus day. They use wine in Europe and some other countries...but not in America! The following is interesting...re invention of Welch's grape juice Most United Methodists are aware that one of our practices is the use of unfermented juice of the grape for Holy Communion. While some other Protestant bodies share this practice, the possibility of the practice goes back to the late 19th century and a Methodist dentist named Thomas Bramwell Welch. (See www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html.) Apparently Welch had scruples about the use of wine and had heard of Louis Pasteur's process of pasteurization of milk. Welch was successful in applying the process to grape juice, and he began to use it in his church, where he was a Communion steward.
His son, Dr. Charles Welch, was an enterprising Methodist layman (a dentist, like his father) from southern New Jersey. He marketed the pasteurized grape juice to temperance-minded evangelical Protestants as authentic biblical "wine." As word spread and as the temperance movement grew among evangelical Protestant churches, Welch left dentistry and produced Welch's Grape Juice commercially.
The impact of the temperance movement and the availability of the "unfermented juice of the grape" can traced in the Book of Discipline and actions of the General Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Church of the United Brethren.www.umcdiscipleship.org/resources/changing-wine-into-grape-juice-thomas-and-charles-welch-and-the-transition-
Personally, I figure the Temperance Movement had a lot to do with changing from wine to grape juice in churches worldwide. This online book discusses the worldwide Protestant "Bible Wine" controversy in the 18th and 19th centuries on a single page 109. Pretty interesting. Alcohol and Temperance in Modern History: An International..., Vol 1
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Post by bubbles on Nov 19, 2015 11:31:53 GMT -5
After a Sunday morning meeting sometimes there is wine or grape juice left over. Is it considered acceptable for the Bishop to swig whats left? Or should it be thrown away?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 11:47:13 GMT -5
After a Sunday morning meeting sometimes there is wine or grape juice left over. Is it considered acceptable for the Bishop to swig whats left? Or should it be thrown away? thrown away
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 11:50:20 GMT -5
Isn't the translation in all three gospels "fruit of the vine" without reference to whether it was fermented? There is also the question of whether the yeast would be considered leaven. Some thing that wine would be without the leaven since the the decanted liquid would no longer have the yeast. The same thinking leads to the belief that non-fermented juice must contain the leaven. Of course, pasteurization would have evened the playing floor regarding the leaven in either. When a Restoration church claims they follow the the Bible the closest of all Restoration churches regarding the methods and beliefs of the primitive NT church - one would assume they would use the same type bread and wine as Jesus did. But no... I've not heard a good reason yet for workers changing this most important ordinance of Jesus. The excuse about using grape juice so alcoholics arent tempted doesnt hold water. I'm sure there were alcoholics in Jesus day. They use wine in Europe and some other countries...but not in America! The following is interesting...re invention of Welch's grape juice Most United Methodists are aware that one of our practices is the use of unfermented juice of the grape for Holy Communion. While some other Protestant bodies share this practice, the possibility of the practice goes back to the late 19th century and a Methodist dentist named Thomas Bramwell Welch. (See www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html.) Apparently Welch had scruples about the use of wine and had heard of Louis Pasteur's process of pasteurization of milk. Welch was successful in applying the process to grape juice, and he began to use it in his church, where he was a Communion steward.
His son, Dr. Charles Welch, was an enterprising Methodist layman (a dentist, like his father) from southern New Jersey. He marketed the pasteurized grape juice to temperance-minded evangelical Protestants as authentic biblical "wine." As word spread and as the temperance movement grew among evangelical Protestant churches, Welch left dentistry and produced Welch's Grape Juice commercially.
The impact of the temperance movement and the availability of the "unfermented juice of the grape" can traced in the Book of Discipline and actions of the General Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Church of the United Brethren.www.umcdiscipleship.org/resources/changing-wine-into-grape-juice-thomas-and-charles-welch-and-the-transition-
Personally, I figure the Temperance Movement had a lot to do with changing from wine to grape juice in churches worldwide. This online book discusses the worldwide Protestant "Bible Wine" controversy in the 18th and 19th centuries on a single page 109. Pretty interesting. Alcohol and Temperance in Modern History: An International..., Vol 1I believe in 1 cor 11 it say the people were getting drunk during the "lords supper" so that leads me to believe it was wine not grape juice...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 11:55:00 GMT -5
When a Restoration church claims they follow the the Bible the closest of all Restoration churches regarding the methods and beliefs of the primitive NT church - one would assume they would use the same type bread and wine as Jesus did. But no... I've not heard a good reason yet for workers changing this most important ordinance of Jesus. The excuse about using grape juice so alcoholics arent tempted doesnt hold water. I'm sure there were alcoholics in Jesus day. They use wine in Europe and some other countries...but not in America! The following is interesting...re invention of Welch's grape juice Most United Methodists are aware that one of our practices is the use of unfermented juice of the grape for Holy Communion. While some other Protestant bodies share this practice, the possibility of the practice goes back to the late 19th century and a Methodist dentist named Thomas Bramwell Welch. (See www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html.) Apparently Welch had scruples about the use of wine and had heard of Louis Pasteur's process of pasteurization of milk. Welch was successful in applying the process to grape juice, and he began to use it in his church, where he was a Communion steward.
His son, Dr. Charles Welch, was an enterprising Methodist layman (a dentist, like his father) from southern New Jersey. He marketed the pasteurized grape juice to temperance-minded evangelical Protestants as authentic biblical "wine." As word spread and as the temperance movement grew among evangelical Protestant churches, Welch left dentistry and produced Welch's Grape Juice commercially.
The impact of the temperance movement and the availability of the "unfermented juice of the grape" can traced in the Book of Discipline and actions of the General Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Church of the United Brethren.www.umcdiscipleship.org/resources/changing-wine-into-grape-juice-thomas-and-charles-welch-and-the-transition-
Personally, I figure the Temperance Movement had a lot to do with changing from wine to grape juice in churches worldwide. This online book discusses the worldwide Protestant "Bible Wine" controversy in the 18th and 19th centuries on a single page 109. Pretty interesting. Alcohol and Temperance in Modern History: An International..., Vol 1if that's the excuse their using that must be it... I think it has to do with not putting a stumblingblock before someone else...
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Post by blandie on Nov 19, 2015 12:05:52 GMT -5
Personally, I figure the Temperance Movement had a lot to do with changing from wine to grape juice in churches worldwide. I think you're right and by around the end of WWI Prohibition was introduced so that would reinforce the wine ban and there'd be no wine to legally buy except the sacramental wine exemption and they couldn't use that and at the same time claim not to be a church. Making wine into something evil to rationalize the grape juice usage became a tradition by the time Prohibition ended and the only thing that makes 2x2-ism stand apart from is just a bunch of unbiblical traditions that get defended as god's only way though this one only got as far as the reach of the American overseers.
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Post by rational on Nov 19, 2015 12:44:23 GMT -5
After a Sunday morning meeting sometimes there is wine or grape juice left over. Is it considered acceptable for the Bishop to swig whats left? Or should it be thrown away? thrown away Many churches, especially those who believe in transfiguration or the 'presence of Jesus' would think very differently. I guess "Sunday morning meeting" is the give away here, though.
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Post by fixit on Nov 19, 2015 14:10:26 GMT -5
Many churches, especially those who believe in transfiguration or the 'presence of Jesus' would think very differently. I guess "Sunday morning meeting" is the give away here, though. Or transubstantiation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
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Post by rational on Nov 19, 2015 14:40:18 GMT -5
Right - my error. Many churches, especially those who believe in transfiguration or the 'presence of Jesus' would think very differently. I guess "Sunday morning meeting" is the give away here, though. Or transubstantiation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
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Post by howitis on Nov 19, 2015 16:44:50 GMT -5
In Australia some places use wine others use grape juice.....I'm not sure what laws are like in the US, but here it is illegal for minors, those under 18, to consume or be offered alcohol, also there is zero tolerance for blood alcohol readings for P plate drivers, which can be 20 year old's (and in some instances older), therefore elders of churches use their discretion with the knowledge of the people attending the fellowship meetings in their home. As all are aware that folk love to point the finger at possible 'illegal' practices within church groups......maybe the use of grape juice and not wine is merely 'abiding by the law of the land'.
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Post by blandie on Nov 19, 2015 17:54:55 GMT -5
Taking a sip of alcohol as part of a religious observance is ok everywhere by anyone and whether in a home or in a church or in a temple and you don't find catholics or jews or any other religion hauled on the carpet for that. Some ethnic groups have wine with every meal and they start very young and its ok at home and even the volstead prohibition act had exemptions for partaking at home and in religious contexts - wine production for sacramental purposes went way up during that time. A sip of wine is also not going to affect a person's measurable blood alcohol level either and wouldn't even make them go beyond natural levels - yeah your body makes some alcohol naturally and a swig of wines going to have less alcohol than a dose of cough syrup anyway - and besides current driving and other regulations weren't even in effect when the bans were instituted so I think those rationalizations aren't really relevant.
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Post by howitis on Nov 19, 2015 18:06:21 GMT -5
As you wish blandie I can only speak of what I know, what happens in our meeting place and others I am familiar with, and that is it's generally wine, but if there are minors, grape juice is used. Home churches often come under harsher scrutiny than say the Catholics or Anglicans, that's just the way it is, take a look among the threads and posts....it's there even on TMB!!!
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 19, 2015 18:10:32 GMT -5
howitis, when did grape juice start to be used if there are minors in the meeting ?
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Post by jondough on Nov 19, 2015 18:12:12 GMT -5
I would love to put out my best wine for this purpose....but around here people would flip their lid I agree, one little sip of wine barely makes it to the bottom of your stomach, much less into a measurable amount in your blood system. The "there may be an alcoholic in the meeting" is used here. In reality, there are quite a few that think it taboo to drink wine at all.
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Post by blandie on Nov 19, 2015 18:15:01 GMT -5
As you wish blandie I can only speak of what I know, what happens in our meeting place and others I am familiar with, and that is it's generally wine, but if there are minors, grape juice is used. Home churches often come under harsher scrutiny than say the Catholics or Anglicans, that's just the way it is, take a look among the threads and posts....it's there even on TMB!!! No exes have been carping here about wine being wrong in meetings tho some innies have a problem with it. Whats been noted is that wine's been absolutely wrong for a long time under some overseers yet its ok under others and that kind of inconsistency just doesn't fit with the oft repeated claim that meetings are the same all across the globe and always have been the same yesterday today and forever. The inconsistency didn't come from concern that police would be hauling people off over a minor or anyone else taking a sip of wine.
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Post by jondough on Nov 19, 2015 18:29:14 GMT -5
I was in Austria quite a few years ago. Went to Sunday morning meeting where the little convention is (clothing factory). I don't know if its still there. Anyway, went to lunch afterward with him, and the two workers. The man ordered a stiff mixed drink right in front of the workers. Being from the USA, we were quite surprised.
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Post by fixit on Nov 19, 2015 19:08:03 GMT -5
Don't feel badly about that. One error in 24,000 posts is quite good, actually.
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Post by Annan on Nov 19, 2015 19:28:08 GMT -5
All this wine/grape juice talk reminds me of the Sunday meetings held in my grandmother's living room. She grew grapes and made her own grape juice. It was horrible stuff. My sister and I used to watch people's faces as they took a sip. It was all they could do to keep a straight face.
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Post by rational on Nov 19, 2015 19:50:39 GMT -5
Don't feel badly about that. One error in 24,000 posts is quite good, actually. Oh, it is hardly the first/only one. Perhaps the last one though!
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Post by howitis on Nov 19, 2015 20:56:37 GMT -5
Roselyn T, several years ago there was concern in many communities regarding the high level of under age drinkers, in an effort to curb this sporting groups, emergency service groups, health professionals, educational institutions, law enforcement agencies, church groups and many others banded together to help. There were courses in 'responsible service of alcohol' and heavier penalties imposed on those who served alcohol to a minor. The local Catholic church where I lived stopped giving the altar boys the last swig of the communion cup and many people became more aware if their roles and responsibilities regarding minors and alcohol, hence in many of the home churches the same applied and I guess 2x2!s followed suit. That's what happened in areas I was involved in and I guess probably other places as well.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 22:11:36 GMT -5
After a Sunday morning meeting sometimes there is wine or grape juice left over. Is it considered acceptable for the Bishop to swig whats left? Or should it be thrown away? thrown away poured on the ground
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 22:15:01 GMT -5
port is used here
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Post by jondough on Nov 19, 2015 22:24:20 GMT -5
That nice. You can get some real nice Ports. Problem with grapejuice is it just seems so cheap. But I guess its just a symbol so it shouldn't matter that much. It would just be nice to put out your best wine or port for such a special occasion.
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Post by joanna on Nov 19, 2015 22:29:13 GMT -5
"Who changed it from wine to grape juice?" Maybe Jesus did after learning about the problems with alcohol consumption
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 23:49:33 GMT -5
"Who changed it from wine to grape juice?" Maybe Jesus did after learning about the problems with alcohol consumption Paul didn't have a problem with wine
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 23:51:20 GMT -5
That nice. You can get some real nice Ports. Problem with grapejuice is it just seems so cheap. But I guess its just a symbol so it shouldn't matter that much. It would just be nice to put out your best wine or port for such a special occasion. i think it cheapens the symbol
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Post by blandie on Nov 20, 2015 15:02:05 GMT -5
The local Catholic church where I lived stopped giving the altar boys the last swig of the communion cup and many people became more aware if their roles and responsibilities regarding minors and alcohol, hence in many of the home churches the same applied and I guess 2x2!s followed suit. That's what happened in areas I was involved in and I guess probably other places as well. No it didn't. The catholics even in your area didn't stop using wine at mass even to minors or start substituting unfermented grape juice. If altar boys were drinking up wine in the vestry and they decided to lock it up is one thing but its quite a different thing to leap from that to a conclusion that catholics or other groups apart from 2x2-ism deciding to ban the use of wine in their services because thats not so. The bans of wine in 2x2-ism's meetings go back many long decades before the recent concerns and laws you rationalize as the reason the bans were made and the inconsistencies between regions has nothing to do with those.
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