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Post by howitis on Nov 20, 2015 15:15:07 GMT -5
blandie I said they 'stopped giving the altar boys the last swig of the communion cup', I didn't say they stopped using wine for communion, did I? If I did that's not what I meant! I am not here to argue any point and can only express what I have personally witnessed.
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Post by blandie on Nov 20, 2015 15:26:55 GMT -5
Then your post had little or nothing to do with 2x2-ism's ban on using wine. The catholic church and quite a few others require that the wine used in their observances be natural and unfermented and that wine is given to minors and anyone else who are accepted in communion with their churches and your post implied - and I'm sure that I'm not the only one left with that impression - that the catholics and others had stopped serving wine to minors which they did not. The sharing of wine in religious observances is not a legal or child safety issue and despite your previous claim no ones been criticizing the F&W's for that.
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Post by rational on Nov 20, 2015 16:40:59 GMT -5
The local Catholic church where I lived stopped giving the altar boys the last swig of the communion cup and many people became more aware if their roles and responsibilities regarding minors and alcohol, hence in many of the home churches the same applied and I guess 2x2!s followed suit. That's what happened in areas I was involved in and I guess probably other places as well. No it didn't. The catholics even in your area didn't stop using wine at mass even to minors or start substituting unfermented grape juice. If altar boys were drinking up wine in the vestry and they decided to lock it up is one thing but its quite a different thing to leap from that to a conclusion that catholics or other groups apart from 2x2-ism deciding to ban the use of wine in their services because thats not so. The bans of wine in 2x2-ism's meetings go back many long decades before the recent concerns and laws you rationalize as the reason the bans were made and the inconsistencies between regions has nothing to do with those. You might want to back up our claims with some research. It was the christians who were in the forefront of the temperance movement and when Welch developed a pasteurization process for grape juice there was a push to eliminate a drink, wine, that they considered unhealthy from the church service. I do not believe that the Catholic church ever discontinued the use of wine. Here is state of the art eucherust: New Prefilled Communion Cups with White Grape Juice and Wafer Now Available! We received many requests for prefilled Communion cups made with white grape juice and we listened. These are perfect for your church if you meet in a school, auditorium, theater or any facility that might have rules about what types of food and beverages can be served, especially if there happens to be a white or light-colored carpet!
Celebrate Communion's new White Grape Prefilled Communion gives you the added benefit of a refreshing, mild flavor profile. You'll enjoy the refined mellow taste and delicate flavor.
Made of 100% natural juice, these cups include an unleavened wafer. You'll love the convenience of having both elements of Communion packaged in one cup, ready to serve. Our Prefilled Communion Cups have always been portable, fresh and convenient. Now they're available to you in a light white grape juice that won't stain your clothing, carpets or furniture!
100% white grape juice (zero added sugars or high fructose corn syrup) Easy to open No waste 100% recyclable plastic cups Germ free Easy setup & easy clean up Unleavened wafer (non GMO) No refrigeration required Store in a cool, dry location================================================================================================= Celebrate Communion's new White Grape Prefilled Communion gives you the added benefit of a refreshing, mild flavor profile with a nutty body and a smoky sweet finish. You'll enjoy the refined mellow taste and delicate flavor with, perhaps, a hint of the almighty.
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Post by Gene on Nov 20, 2015 17:12:03 GMT -5
No it didn't. The catholics even in your area didn't stop using wine at mass even to minors or start substituting unfermented grape juice. If altar boys were drinking up wine in the vestry and they decided to lock it up is one thing but its quite a different thing to leap from that to a conclusion that catholics or other groups apart from 2x2-ism deciding to ban the use of wine in their services because thats not so. The bans of wine in 2x2-ism's meetings go back many long decades before the recent concerns and laws you rationalize as the reason the bans were made and the inconsistencies between regions has nothing to do with those. You might want to back up our claims with some research. It was the christians who were in the forefront of the temperance movement and when Welch developed a pasteurization process for grape juice there was a push to eliminate a drink, wine, that they considered unhealthy from the church service. I do not believe that the Catholic church ever discontinued the use of wine. Here is state of the art eucherust: New Prefilled Communion Cups with White Grape Juice and Wafer Now Available! We received many requests for prefilled Communion cups made with white grape juice and we listened. These are perfect for your church if you meet in a school, auditorium, theater or any facility that might have rules about what types of food and beverages can be served, especially if there happens to be a white or light-colored carpet!
Celebrate Communion's new White Grape Prefilled Communion gives you the added benefit of a refreshing, mild flavor profile. You'll enjoy the refined mellow taste and delicate flavor.
Made of 100% natural juice, these cups include an unleavened wafer. You'll love the convenience of having both elements of Communion packaged in one cup, ready to serve. Our Prefilled Communion Cups have always been portable, fresh and convenient. Now they're available to you in a light white grape juice that won't stain your clothing, carpets or furniture!
100% white grape juice (zero added sugars or high fructose corn syrup) Easy to open No waste 100% recyclable plastic cups Germ free Easy setup & easy clean up Unleavened wafer (non GMO) No refrigeration required Store in a cool, dry location================================================================================================= Celebrate Communion's new White Grape Prefilled Communion gives you the added benefit of a refreshing, mild flavor profile with a nutty body and a smoky sweet finish. You'll enjoy the refined mellow taste and delicate flavor with, perhaps, a hint of the almighty. WHAT?!?!?!? The wafer is not gluten-free?!?!?!?!?
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Post by blandie on Nov 20, 2015 17:27:15 GMT -5
You might want to back up our claims with some research. It was the christians who were in the forefront of the temperance movement and when Welch developed a pasteurization process for grape juice there was a push to eliminate a drink, wine, that they considered unhealthy from the church service. I do not believe that the Catholic church ever discontinued the use of wine. Here is state of the art eucherust: Some christians promoted the temperance bans on alcohol but it wasn't even the majority of christians and certainly the the roman church always required natural fermented wine and not the artificially pasturized and preserved stuff the Methodists invented in CherieKropp's link. Theres nothing appealing about those sealed 'cups' in the foto - though I guess it is more hygienic than everybody - sick or not - drinking out of the same cup. At least some alcohol might kill a few of the germs. Funny thing is that the shared cup in the original may have been a larger mixing vessel from which everyone dipped their own portion as was the custom at that time. WHAT?!?!?!? The wafer is not gluten-free?!?!?!?!? Please keep that wafer and gluten-free stuff away from me too! I'd prefer a matzo with at least some flavor even if it had to come with a bit of gas
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Post by howitis on Nov 20, 2015 17:41:13 GMT -5
Well blandie firstly it would appear, after reading through the posts, there is no 'ban' in 2x2's using wine, except it was stopped in the US. Secondly, Cherie started this thread after a post on another thread prompted her to ask the question why, when, who etc.....then put her 'personal' belief forward......this 'personal' belief may be correct for her area, but there is actually no way of knowing, since none have come forward with the 'facts' so really all we have is 'belief' not hard evidence. Thirdly, from the 2x2's that have posted here none of them mind either way and if something happened to the world's grape crops, something else would be used as its just an 'emblem' Lastly of the 8 churches I have most to do with (yes regardless of what some people perceive, many 2x2's do interact with other church groups), 4 are with buildings, 4 are home based, 4 use wine regularly, 4 do not, 2 of those who do, change if there are minors participating in communion, and the other 2 reformed their practices regarding the left over wine. As I said that is my experience here in my area, I know it is similar in some other areas too, as I have lived and worked in short periods in those places.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 20, 2015 18:56:38 GMT -5
I was in Austria quite a few years ago. Went to Sunday morning meeting where the little convention is (clothing factory). I don't know if its still there. Anyway, went to lunch afterward with him, and the two workers. The man ordered a stiff mixed drink right in front of the workers. Being from the USA, we were quite surprised. At my friend's house in Germany he' brought a sister worker home after an evening gospel meeting, and she asks for a beer to relax with. My brother, a worker in Paris at the time, had teenage kids come to visit his bach and brought him a bottle of wine in appreciation.
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Post by jondough on Nov 20, 2015 19:07:59 GMT -5
I was in Austria quite a few years ago. Went to Sunday morning meeting where the little convention is (clothing factory). I don't know if its still there. Anyway, went to lunch afterward with him, and the two workers. The man ordered a stiff mixed drink right in front of the workers. Being from the USA, we were quite surprised. At my friend's house in Germany he' brought a sister worker home after an evening gospel meeting, and she asks for a beer to relax with. My brother, a worker in Paris at the time, had teenage kids come to visit his bach and brought him a bottle of wine in appreciation. It sure seems the USA is one of the more stricter places when it comes to anything with alcohol. I know one of the sister workers in the Ukraine drinks plenty of wine. Plenty of meds as well. If you're talking about your brother that I know, that bottle didn't get opened.
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Post by Gene on Nov 20, 2015 19:39:28 GMT -5
I was in Austria quite a few years ago. Went to Sunday morning meeting where the little convention is (clothing factory). I don't know if its still there. Anyway, went to lunch afterward with him, and the two workers. The man ordered a stiff mixed drink right in front of the workers. Being from the USA, we were quite surprised. At my friend's house in Germany he' brought a sister worker home after an evening gospel meeting, and she asks for a beer to relax with. My brother, a worker in Paris at the time, had teenage kids come to visit his bach and brought him a bottle of wine in appreciation. Heretics, all.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 20, 2015 20:28:02 GMT -5
Here in Australia I have always known alcoholic wine to be used (port, apparently because it tastes better to those not accustomed to drinking wine). I don't recall any substitute being used for minors. Not that it was an issue, here in Australia children can drink alcohol with their parents' supervision/permission in a private home.
My father was the elder and always poured out the unused on the ground afterwards, as instructed to do by the workers.
I don't lightly dismiss the concerns over alcoholics being present. At our church they offer both wine and grape juice; members of the congregation use whichever they prefer at their own discretion.
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Post by rational on Nov 20, 2015 20:51:48 GMT -5
WHAT?!?!?!? The wafer is not gluten-free?!?!?!?!? Easy Gene: You have heard of Pope on a Rope. Well, this is - well, whatever it is it will be interesting - Cool down those hot debates! Godcycles? "Here, Sammy, lick this and see what happens!"
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 20, 2015 21:01:25 GMT -5
At my friend's house in Germany he' brought a sister worker home after an evening gospel meeting, and she asks for a beer to relax with. My brother, a worker in Paris at the time, had teenage kids come to visit his bach and brought him a bottle of wine in appreciation. It sure seems the USA is one of the more stricter places when it comes to anything with alcohol. I know one of the sister workers in the Ukraine drinks plenty of wine. Plenty of meds as well. If you're talking about your brother that I know, that bottle didn't get opened. Then you don't know my brother. When we visited him and his companion in Paris we ordered wine in the restaurant, and had whine in every house where he took us for dinner, except for one.
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2015 21:01:28 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 20, 2015 21:03:56 GMT -5
I didn't get any cake at my baptism.
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Post by Gene on Nov 20, 2015 21:06:21 GMT -5
I didn't get any cake at my baptism. I'm pretty sure mine had a pot-luck afterwards.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 20, 2015 21:12:36 GMT -5
I didn't get any cake at my baptism. I'm pretty sure mine had a pot-luck afterwards. I was baptized at convention, before the days of vetting baptism applicants.
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 20, 2015 21:37:27 GMT -5
WHAT?!?!?!? The wafer is not gluten-free?!?!?!?!? Easy Gene: You have heard of Pope on a Rope. Well, this is - well, whatever it is it will be interesting - Cool down those hot debates! Godcycles? "Here, Sammy, lick this and see what happens!" Here you go........... POPE ON A ROPE. Buy this today, and take it home with you. In the comfort and security of your own bathroom you can perform your own baptism. Join together with the POPE ON A ROPE and wash your sins away. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! If you buy it now, you will also receive at no extra charge a package of POPESICLES. Enjoy the cool refreshing flavor as you feel the POPE melting down your throat. disclaimer: we are not responsible for any actions which occur if you happen to drop your POPE ON A ROPE while in the shower. There is a reason for the rope....... Scott
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Post by Gene on Nov 20, 2015 22:18:04 GMT -5
Easy Gene: You have heard of Pope on a Rope. Well, this is - well, whatever it is it will be interesting - Cool down those hot debates! Godcycles? "Here, Sammy, lick this and see what happens!" Here you go........... POPE ON A ROPE. Buy this today, and take it home with you. In the comfort and security of your own bathroom you can perform your own baptism. Join together with the POPE ON A ROPE and wash your sins away. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! If you buy it now, you will also receive at no extra charge a package of POPESICLES. Enjoy the cool refreshing flavor as you feel the POPE melting down your throat. disclaimer: we are not responsible for any actions which occur if you happen to drop your POPE ON A ROPE while in the shower. There is a reason for the rope....... Scott Oh dear. Oh dear. I'm (nearly) speechless...
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Post by fixit on Nov 20, 2015 23:55:27 GMT -5
The local Catholic church where I lived stopped giving the altar boys the last swig of the communion cup and many people became more aware if their roles and responsibilities regarding minors and alcohol, hence in many of the home churches the same applied and I guess 2x2!s followed suit. That's what happened in areas I was involved in and I guess probably other places as well. No it didn't. The catholics even in your area didn't stop using wine at mass even to minors or start substituting unfermented grape juice. If altar boys were drinking up wine in the vestry and they decided to lock it up is one thing but its quite a different thing to leap from that to a conclusion that catholics or other groups apart from 2x2-ism deciding to ban the use of wine in their services because thats not so. The bans of wine in 2x2-ism's meetings go back many long decades before the recent concerns and laws you rationalize as the reason the bans were made and the inconsistencies between regions has nothing to do with those. Are you sure there's a ban on wine? Is it not simply a custom? I think every Sunday AM meeting I've ever attended used wine.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2015 0:06:20 GMT -5
Well blandie firstly it would appear, after reading through the posts, there is no 'ban' in 2x2's using wine, except it was stopped in the US. Secondly, Cherie started this thread after a post on another thread prompted her to ask the question why, when, who etc.....then put her 'personal' belief forward......this 'personal' belief may be correct for her area, but there is actually no way of knowing, since none have come forward with the 'facts' so really all we have is 'belief' not hard evidence. Thirdly, from the 2x2's that have posted here none of them mind either way and if something happened to the world's grape crops, something else would be used as its just an 'emblem' Lastly of the 8 churches I have most to do with (yes regardless of what some people perceive, many 2x2's do interact with other church groups), 4 are with buildings, 4 are home based, 4 use wine regularly, 4 do not, 2 of those who do, change if there are minors participating in communion, and the other 2 reformed their practices regarding the left over wine. As I said that is my experience here in my area, I know it is similar in some other areas too, as I have lived and worked in short periods in those places. howitis, how many meetings do you know of use grape juice instead of port, because there are minors present?
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2015 0:08:10 GMT -5
An elderly widow, whom had the meeting in her home, once asked me if I thought using grape juice would be ok........I actually think that, for her, having no close family professing, that she probably felt it would be easier for her to buy the juice with her groceries rather than go to a bottle shop (probably something she didn't want to do) as at that time supermarkets were not allowed to sell liquor, and still most don't.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2015 0:10:24 GMT -5
Roselyn T, several years ago there was concern in many communities regarding the high level of under age drinkers, in an effort to curb this sporting groups, emergency service groups, health professionals, educational institutions, law enforcement agencies, church groups and many others banded together to help. There were courses in 'responsible service of alcohol' and heavier penalties imposed on those who served alcohol to a minor. The local Catholic church where I lived stopped giving the altar boys the last swig of the communion cup and many people became more aware if their roles and responsibilities regarding minors and alcohol, hence in many of the home churches the same applied and I guess 2x2!s followed suit. That's what happened in areas I was involved in and I guess probably other places as well. There must be a lot of meetings where minors are present, that didn't get the "memo" !
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2015 0:13:14 GMT -5
Well Roselyn T, I don't meeting hop too much these days, but I know of at least 6. The way I see it, it doesn't really matter, the Spirit in which we partake of the emblems is far more important. Tell me is either important to you?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2015 0:22:28 GMT -5
I didn't realise we were discussing "What is important to me" ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 21, 2015 0:25:12 GMT -5
As you wish blandie I can only speak of what I know, what happens in our meeting place and others I am familiar with, and that is it's generally wine, but if there are minors, grape juice is used. Home churches often come under harsher scrutiny than say the Catholics or Anglicans, that's just the way it is, take a look among the threads and posts....it's there even on TMB!!! No exes have been carping here about wine being wrong in meetings tho some innies have a problem with it. Whats been noted is that wine's been absolutely wrong for a long time under some overseers yet its ok under others and that kind of inconsistency just doesn't fit with the oft repeated claim that meetings are the same all across the globe and always have been the same yesterday today and forever. The inconsistency didn't come from concern that police would be hauling people off over a minor or anyone else taking a sip of wine. I believe blandie summed it up here.
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2015 0:45:27 GMT -5
If that's how you see the 'summing up' Roselyn T good for you!! I haven't seen any posts with 'some having a problem with it', but maybe you both can see more posts than me. I appreciated the sincerity of elizabethcoleman taking on board the reality if the alcoholism problem.
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 21, 2015 0:55:50 GMT -5
Jesus instituted the sacraments and He and gave very plain instructions of what was to be used universally in remembrance of Him for all times. How dare man change this to what suits them better or is more convenient? And then claim their church is the closest way to the NT primitive church??? When they deviate from the NT instructions in carrying out this most holy sacrament? ?? So its OK to change Jesus instructions bcs it's easier to buy grape juice at the grocery store than to make a separate trip to another store to buy wine? How lame is that? What about suffering, self denial, putting the Lord first, giving your best etc. And not only have they had the audacity to change the wine to grape juice--they changed the bread also--to be the very OPPOSITE of the type Jesus used...to leavened - instead of unleavened! And then to minimize this disobedience with "it's only a symbol??" Prov 6:9-11 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep. It's never to late to wake up change traditions of men so they are following the commandments of God as close as possible. They've changed other things thru the years to be closer to scripture--I remember when F&Ws ended their prayers with "In THY name we ask" - and that was changed to "In Jesus name we ask." They've changed words in hymns. Seems to me, the very least that could be done in remembrance of Jesus for all he has done for us would be obey and follow EXACTLY as Jesus instituted it in the first place...not change a jot or tittle. In a church that claims it is the same the world over, you'd think this practice would the same everywhere--but its not, as noted above, and that's a shame IMO that should/could be corrected. Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Matthew 7:20-22 (KJV) 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2015 1:03:25 GMT -5
So where is your 'suffering, self denial, putting the Lord first, giving your best etc. ' in your post CherieKropp? Not that it matters to me. I just mentioned that elderly lady and what I thought may have been her issue.......so stick your hair back n love, and next time consider someone in their 90's who doesn't drive a car, has poor eyesight and walks with a cane, she is very independent and catches a lift to town, over 1/2 an hour away to do her shopping......and if you want to know she still has wine in the cup at every Sunday morning meeting.
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