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Post by jondough on Nov 21, 2015 1:16:06 GMT -5
Out here, we would be fine using purple colored Cool-aid...so long as there is no alcohol in it
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 21, 2015 1:22:38 GMT -5
Jesus instituted the sacraments and He and gave very plain instructions of what was to be used universally in remembrance of Him for all times. How dare man change this to what suits them better or is more convenient? And then claim their church is the closest way to the NT primitive church??? When they deviate from the NT instructions in carrying out this most holy sacrament? ?? So its OK to change Jesus instructions bcs it's easier to buy grape juice at the grocery store than to make a separate trip to another store to buy wine? How lame is that? What about suffering, self denial, putting the Lord first, giving your best etc. And not only have they had the audacity to change the wine to grape juice--they changed the bread also--to be the very OPPOSITE of the type Jesus used...to leavened - instead of unleavened! And then to minimize this disobedience with "it's only a symbol??" Prov 6:9-11 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep. It's never to late to wake up change traditions of men so they are following the commandments of God as close as possible. They've changed other things thru the years to be closer to scripture--I remember when F&Ws ended their prayers with "In THY name we ask" - and that was changed to "In Jesus name we ask." They've changed words in hymns. Seems to me, the very least that could be done in remembrance of Jesus for all he has done for us would be obey and follow EXACTLY as Jesus instituted it in the first place...not change a jot or tittle. In a church that claims it is the same the world over, you'd think this practice would the same everywhere--but its not, as noted above, and that's a shame IMO that should/could be corrected. Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Matthew 7:20-22 (KJV) 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? The most important part of Eucharists/emblems is in REMBERANCE of Jesus= life, death, sacrifice and resurrection... He died for our sins... The believers to come together having fellowship with one another and to worship God in Spirit and in Truth in giving thanks, praises, honor unto the Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit.... Whether we use wine or grape juices due to US law... no one under 21 yrs old can drink or buy Wine/Alcohol. There are young professing people, who are under 21 yrs old in the meetings. It's against law in the US for them to partake the emblems/wine in the meetings.
What would Jesus do? if he were attending the Sunday morning meetings in U.S A. .... Would he want the young professing people to partake the wine? and break the law of the land?
You might want to research that statement. drinkingage.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002591It would be perfectly legal in your state of Oregon for minors to drink wine in Sunday morning meetings if their parents approve. Underage consumption of alcohol is allowed...
1. on private, non alcohol-selling premises, with parental consent in 29 states Examples: private home, private office, or private property with parental presence and consent
Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming
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Post by jondough on Nov 21, 2015 1:32:51 GMT -5
It sure seems the USA is one of the more stricter places when it comes to anything with alcohol. I know one of the sister workers in the Ukraine drinks plenty of wine. Plenty of meds as well. If you're talking about your brother that I know, that bottle didn't get opened. Then you don't know my brother. When we visited him and his companion in Paris we ordered wine in the restaurant, and had whine in every house where he took us for dinner, except for one. I thought I knew your bro. How many do you have? I've played a lot of ball with one that I thought was your bro. The one I was referring to that I just can't see popping the cork. The one now in Canada. Am I thinking of the wrong person?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 21, 2015 1:47:40 GMT -5
Then you don't know my brother. When we visited him and his companion in Paris we ordered wine in the restaurant, and had whine in every house where he took us for dinner, except for one. I thought I knew your bro. How many do you have? I've played a lot of ball with one that I thought was your bro. The one I was referring to that I just can't see popping the cork. The one now in Canada. Am I thinking of the wrong person? The guy you know is Kent -- my first cousin. And no, I don't believe you would EVER hear of him popping a cork -- or accepting a drink in anyone's home. My brothers who were in the work are Armand and Dale -- in the work in eastern Canada, France, Benin, Togo, & French Guiana.
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Post by fixit on Nov 21, 2015 2:10:18 GMT -5
Jesus instituted the sacraments and He and gave very plain instructions of what was to be used universally in remembrance of Him for all times. How dare man change this to what suits them better or is more convenient? And then claim their church is the closest way to the NT primitive church??? When they deviate from the NT instructions in carrying out this most holy sacrament? ?? So its OK to change Jesus instructions bcs it's easier to buy grape juice at the grocery store than to make a separate trip to another store to buy wine? How lame is that? What about suffering, self denial, putting the Lord first, giving your best etc. Can you quote scripture that might convince me wine is necessary?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 21, 2015 2:19:13 GMT -5
Where I grew up in NZ there was a brief period where grapejuice was used. I asked a senior worker why this was so and he told me that in Jesus day they didn't have real wine, only grapejuice. There are several verses in the bible talking about drunkenness, one of which was a long time before Jesus. When workers say stuff like this I have to wonder how any one can believe anything they say. The whole lot are laughable and wouldn't even make a good clown act at a cheap circus.
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 21, 2015 2:27:33 GMT -5
You might want to research that statement. drinkingage.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002591It would be perfectly legal in your state of Oregon for minors to drink wine in Sunday morning meetings if their parents approve. Underage consumption of alcohol is allowed...
1. on private, non alcohol-selling premises, with parental consent in 29 states Examples: private home, private office, or private property with parental presence and consent
Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming There are mix feelings on the parents for allowing their young professing children to partake wine/alcohol in the Sunday meetings... There are some alcoholic friends among us, who try to quit, the wine are theirs weakness. So, I say stick with the grape Juices for now... EVERYBODY is happy.I think it is fine to drink grape juice. I was simply pointing out your mistake about US laws concerning children being allowed to drink alcohol with parental consent.
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Post by Grant on Nov 21, 2015 3:33:41 GMT -5
The same laws apply in other countries too and they still use wine in meetings. I doubt if they know of alcoholics in meeting given that nearly everyone grew up in meetings and haven't been out in the world drinking.
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Post by blandie on Nov 21, 2015 4:37:13 GMT -5
Are you sure there's a ban on wine? Is it not simply a custom? I think every Sunday AM meeting I've ever attended used wine. Since the elders are instructed by the senior workers about what to serve and how to pour the leftover wine on the ground and burn the leftover bread it comes from the top down and they've been told to use only unfermented grape juice in those regions where wine isn't to be done so yeah I consider that a ban because the elders have no say over what they serve. Might have started out as a tradition but its not as if its an option in those places. BTW using wine in a religious context is ok in all 50 states and all US territories and almost every nation that guarantees freedom of religion. Jewish boys get their first taste of wine at 8 days at their b'rit and in catholic and other churches minors who are allowed to partake of the wine after baptism and confirmation around age 7 or so and in churches where natural unfermented wine is exclusively used somehow alcoholics manage to both partake of a little sip and stay on the wagon - like I said alcohol is in lots of other things and sometimes in stronger form than in wine - vanilla and other flavors of ice cream and cough and other medications and mustard and fruit cake and sauces and breads and fresh fruit and even some in sodas and non-alcoholic beer and wine. Let your freshly squeezed grape or other fruit juice sit around for more than a few minutes and it immediately starts to develop measurable alcohol unless you boil and preserve it. Its a myth that alcoholics can't tolerate even the tiniest bit of alcohol because they can and do fine in and out of other groups - there've been a few family members with alcoholism in my own family over the years and the problem was never to do with or made better or worse by a couple drops of wine at meeting or other church service. Anyone who is tempted to chug sacramental wine or looks at the sip from the cup as an invitation to fall off the wagon has an unresolved problem that partaking of a tiny sip isn't going to make worse or better and its not the negligible alcohol content in that sip any more than it is with the greater amounts of alcohol they get in other forms from everyday foods and non-alcoholic drinks and their own bodies produce it as well.
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Post by rational on Nov 21, 2015 8:09:48 GMT -5
There are mix feelings on the parents for allowing their young professing children to partake wine/alcohol in the Sunday meetings... There are some alcoholic friends among us, who try to quit, the wine are theirs weakness. So, I say stick with the grape Juices for now... EVERYBODY is happy. I think it is fine to drink grape juice. I was simply pointing out your mistake about US laws concerning children being allowed to drink alcohol with parental consent. Volstead Act Section 3 of Title II reads, “[l]iquor for non beverage purposes and wine or sacramental purposes may be manufactured, purchased, sold, bartered transported, imported, exported, delivered, furnished and possessed, but only as herein provided . . .” An interesting note - one of the exceptions to the Volstead Act was to allow the use of alcohol for the treatment of alcoholics. I believe Scott Ross is correct but I do not believe there are any restrictions as to who can be provided with wine during a religious service. Infant communion is not uncommon.
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Post by fixit on Nov 21, 2015 14:35:44 GMT -5
Are you sure there's a ban on wine? Is it not simply a custom? I think every Sunday AM meeting I've ever attended used wine. Since the elders are instructed by the senior workers about what to serve and how to pour the leftover wine on the ground and burn the leftover bread it comes from the top down and they've been told to use only unfermented grape juice in those regions where wine isn't to be done so yeah I consider that a ban because the elders have no say over what they serve. Might have started out as a tradition but its not as if its an option in those places. The only "instruction by the senior workers about what to serve and how to pour the leftover wine on the ground and burn the leftover bread" that I'm aware of is the Eldon Tenniswood elder's meeting notes. I note with interest that Eldon was OK with using grape juice or wine, as long as it is "the fruit of the vine". If some overseers were pretty keen to have their views implemented it only applied in "those places". Around the world there's a lot of diversity and I see that as a good thing. It would be a big mistake to focus on the method rather than the meaning.
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Post by bendle on Nov 21, 2015 15:39:31 GMT -5
After a Sunday morning meeting sometimes there is wine or grape juice left over. Is it considered acceptable for the Bishop to swig whats left? Or should it be thrown away? thrown away I recall the chap who led a union meeting that we used to go to every few months when I was a kiddy used to put the left over bread in the 'wine' and take it outside into the garden somewhere at the end of the meeting. Only when he'd come back in did the post meeting conversation really get started.
I've a feeling that my dad used to bury the leftovers, not 100% sure but I think that is what used to happen. It used to be a wine of some description at my parents.
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Post by ellie on Nov 21, 2015 18:38:06 GMT -5
Here in Australia I have always known alcoholic wine to be used (port, apparently because it tastes better to those not accustomed to drinking wine). I don't recall any substitute being used for minors. Not that it was an issue, here in Australia children can drink alcohol with their parents' supervision/permission in a private home. My father was the elder and always poured out the unused on the ground afterwards, as instructed to do by the workers. I don't lightly dismiss the concerns over alcoholics being present. At our church they offer both wine and grape juice; members of the congregation use whichever they prefer at their own discretion. I always thought port was used because it keeps longer once opened. Using a regular red might imply that somebody was either doing a lot of red wine cooking or drinking the rest of the bottle with Sunday lunch
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 21, 2015 18:59:17 GMT -5
Using a regular red might imply that somebody was either doing a lot of red wine cooking or drinking the rest of the bottle with Sunday lunch Ha! Now, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea. At all!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 21, 2015 19:35:50 GMT -5
Since the elders are instructed by the senior workers about what to serve and how to pour the leftover wine on the ground and burn the leftover bread it comes from the top down and they've been told to use only unfermented grape juice in those regions where wine isn't to be done so yeah I consider that a ban because the elders have no say over what they serve. Might have started out as a tradition but its not as if its an option in those places. The only "instruction by the senior workers about what to serve and how to pour the leftover wine on the ground and burn the leftover bread" that I'm aware of is the Eldon Tenniswood elder's meeting notes. I note with interest that Eldon was OK with using grape juice or wine, as long as it is "the fruit of the vine". If some overseers were pretty keen to have their views implemented it only applied in "those places". Around the world there's a lot of diversity and I see that as a good thing. It would be a big mistake to focus on the method rather than the meaning. Hi Fixit, the list of Eldon Tenniswoods suggestions or instructions is all about method. I particularly like the one about consecrated home. Who consecrates them and how?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 21, 2015 20:22:02 GMT -5
No it didn't. The catholics even in your area didn't stop using wine at mass even to minors or start substituting unfermented grape juice. If altar boys were drinking up wine in the vestry and they decided to lock it up is one thing but its quite a different thing to leap from that to a conclusion that catholics or other groups apart from 2x2-ism deciding to ban the use of wine in their services because thats not so. The bans of wine in 2x2-ism's meetings go back many long decades before the recent concerns and laws you rationalize as the reason the bans were made and the inconsistencies between regions has nothing to do with those. Are you sure there's a ban on wine? Is it not simply a custom? I think every Sunday AM meeting I've ever attended used wine. That is interesting; -because every Sunday AM meeting that I've ever attended, -from the time I remember for until age 50 past & in any part of the mid-west & Atlantic Sea coast, -wine was never used!
Only grape juice was used.
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Post by xna on Nov 21, 2015 20:30:16 GMT -5
I have had raisins juice water, raisin(s) soaked in water overnight. Kosher Worker approved, for poor friends.
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Post by fixit on Nov 21, 2015 21:18:49 GMT -5
The only "instruction by the senior workers about what to serve and how to pour the leftover wine on the ground and burn the leftover bread" that I'm aware of is the Eldon Tenniswood elder's meeting notes. I note with interest that Eldon was OK with using grape juice or wine, as long as it is "the fruit of the vine". If some overseers were pretty keen to have their views implemented it only applied in "those places". Around the world there's a lot of diversity and I see that as a good thing. It would be a big mistake to focus on the method rather than the meaning. Hi Fixit, the list of Eldon Tenniswoods suggestions or instructions is all about method. I particularly like the one about consecrated home. Who consecrates them and how? Eldon answers your question: IS IT SCRIPTURAL TO PARTAKE OF THE EMBLEMS IN A PLACE SUCH AS A MOUNTAIN CABIN WHEN A FEW GATHER THERE? The only place where the bread should be broken is in a home that is consecrated for the meeting. If you go to the mountains for recreation or a vacation. try to go to a home that has been chosen by the workers for the Sunday Morning Meeting and the breaking of bread.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 21, 2015 22:15:53 GMT -5
Hi Fixit, the list of Eldon Tenniswoods suggestions or instructions is all about method. I particularly like the one about consecrated home. Who consecrates them and how? Eldon answers your question: IS IT SCRIPTURAL TO PARTAKE OF THE EMBLEMS IN A PLACE SUCH AS A MOUNTAIN CABIN WHEN A FEW GATHER THERE? The only place where the bread should be broken is in a home that is consecrated for the meeting. If you go to the mountains for recreation or a vacation. try to go to a home that has been chosen by the workers for the Sunday Morning Meeting and the breaking of bread. Yes, god forbid that you should go on a vacation without first finding a place to go to meeting on Sunday!
Control every part of your life? Yep! you betcha!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 21, 2015 22:39:13 GMT -5
Hi Fixit, the list of Eldon Tenniswoods suggestions or instructions is all about method. I particularly like the one about consecrated home. Who consecrates them and how? Eldon answers your question: IS IT SCRIPTURAL TO PARTAKE OF THE EMBLEMS IN A PLACE SUCH AS A MOUNTAIN CABIN WHEN A FEW GATHER THERE? The only place where the bread should be broken is in a home that is consecrated for the meeting. If you go to the mountains for recreation or a vacation. try to go to a home that has been chosen by the workers for the Sunday Morning Meeting and the breaking of bread. That is not an answer but just a wee bit of circular reasoning.
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Post by blandie on Nov 22, 2015 0:16:33 GMT -5
Yes theres some circular thinking going on in that list. Tho I don't think Tenniswood's stuff was passed to elders by overseers around here - more that they were orally coached - the rationalization about some who might have ' the alcoholic habit' being the reason sounds familiar - no rules mind you but grape juice is the practice 'we like' in California and you can be sure the elders there followed that directive just in other regions they followed their overseers instructions. Odd too that in those other places that use wine in other parts of the world they must not have any with ' the alcoholic habit' and strange that he used the word 'wine' instead of grape juice in the whole spiel. The mention of wine being more difficult to get than grape juice is downright hilarious - and false - preserved unfermented grape juice isn't more common in most countries - unlike wine its got to be refrigerated once opened for one thing and its also more expensive than wine in many other places where even a glass of cola is more expensive than a glass of wine. Sorta odd that he goes on about the passover meal being the example but when it comes to rationalizing the meetings not using unleavened bread he switches over to the feast of pentecost which is a weird leap and I wonder where he got that from. That is interesting; -because every Sunday AM meeting that I've ever attended, -from the time I remember for until age 50 past & in any part of the mid-west & Atlantic Sea coast, -wine was never used!
Only grape juice was used. From Tenniswood's rationale there must be a lot of alcoholics amongst the friends thru vast swatches of north America.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 22, 2015 1:27:27 GMT -5
Yes theres some circular thinking going on in that list. Tho I don't think Tenniswood's stuff was passed to elders by overseers around here - more that they were orally coached - the rationalization about some who might have ' the alcoholic habit' being the reason sounds familiar - no rules mind you but grape juice is the practice 'we like' in California and you can be sure the elders there followed that directive just in other regions they followed their overseers instructions. Odd too that in those other places that use wine in other parts of the world they must not have any with ' the alcoholic habit' and strange that he used the word 'wine' instead of grape juice in the whole spiel. The mention of wine being more difficult to get than grape juice is downright hilarious - and false - preserved unfermented grape juice isn't more common in most countries - unlike wine its got to be refrigerated once opened for one thing and its also more expensive than wine in many other places where even a glass of cola is more expensive than a glass of wine. Sorta odd that he goes on about the passover meal being the example but when it comes to rationalizing the meetings not using unleavened bread he switches over to the feast of pentecost which is a weird leap and I wonder where he got that from. That is interesting; -because every Sunday AM meeting that I've ever attended, -from the time I remember for until age 50 past & in any part of the mid-west & Atlantic Sea coast, -wine was never used!
Only grape juice was used. From Tenniswood's rationale there must be a lot of alcoholics amongst the friends thru vast swatches of north America. I'm not surprised, listening to that lot would drive anyone to drink.
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Post by thenorthwindsblow on Nov 26, 2015 20:32:03 GMT -5
I have heard that there are some meetings in the US, as well as in other countries, that do use real wine. Years ago I was stationed in Germany. There they have different kinds of beer. There is even a special children's beer for breakfast. I'm pretty sure the meetings in Germany use real wine. Can anyone shed some light here?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 26, 2015 21:11:49 GMT -5
Here in Australia I have always known alcoholic wine to be used (port, apparently because it tastes better to those not accustomed to drinking wine). I don't recall any substitute being used for minors. Not that it was an issue, here in Australia children can drink alcohol with their parents' supervision/permission in a private home. My father was the elder and always poured out the unused on the ground afterwards, as instructed to do by the workers. I don't lightly dismiss the concerns over alcoholics being present. At our church they offer both wine and grape juice; members of the congregation use whichever they prefer at their own discretion. I always thought port was used because it keeps longer once opened. Using a regular red might imply that somebody was either doing a lot of red wine cooking or drinking the rest of the bottle with Sunday lunch Never thought of that, Ellie! That reason would make sense. A bottle of red doesn't keep well once opened! I'm sure we were told "it tastes better", but I suspect you're right.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 22:48:25 GMT -5
I have heard that there are some meetings in the US, as well as in other countries, that do use real wine. Years ago I was stationed in Germany. There they have different kinds of beer. There is even a special children's beer for breakfast. I'm pretty sure the meetings in Germany use real wine. Can anyone shed some light here? The real thing is used in Australia. I was baptised at 16 and took wine every Sunday even though it was illegal until 18. I don't recall being worried about it!! Ironic that it was an era of extreme worker legalism and control but they didn't worry about breaking the law on this one.... come on it doesn't take much logic to understand you weren't having even a little bit at the bottom of the cup
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 3:04:14 GMT -5
come on it doesn't take much logic to understand you weren't having even a little bit at the bottom of the cup I think I might be logical enough to realise that but nevertheless it is against the law to serve alcohol to a minor or for a minor to consume it. At convention the cup is full and lets assume the first person receiving it is a 16 year old who drinks it. Both the worker and individual are breaking the law and if caught would be fined well then if you want to be honest you better hop of down to the police station
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 27, 2015 5:01:53 GMT -5
Hey Virgo, you in your cups again aye?
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Post by rational on Nov 27, 2015 9:12:17 GMT -5
come on it doesn't take much logic to understand you weren't having even a little bit at the bottom of the cup I think I might be logical enough to realise that but nevertheless it is against the law to serve alcohol to a minor or for a minor to consume it. At convention the cup is full and lets assume the first person receiving it is a 16 year old who drinks it. Both the worker and individual are breaking the law and if caught would be fined In the US, sacramental wine as well as other factors allow the consumption of alcohol by minors. Only 5 states (Alabama, Arkansas, Idaho, New Hampshire, and West Virginia) have no exceptions for underage alcohol consumption. Pick your meeting carefully if you are looking to be legally served alcohol!
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