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Post by emy on Sept 5, 2015 22:14:43 GMT -5
Why do you connect mental illness with addiction? emy, have you read any of the posts above ? The reason I suppose that I connect mental illness with addiction is because my late ex-husband had Bi-polar & was an alcoholic. When I wrote that, no I hadn't, but I have now. Just one observation... Most people who stop drinking do not do it by taking medication. It seems that a support group is one of the most helpful things? OTOH, people who are mentally ill, or have other medication-dependent diseases, will not get much help from only a support group. I am not saying addiction is not a disease. The fact that addictive substances affect some people very severely and others not at all shows that there is some kind of physical component, but why isn't it treated with medication like others are?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 22:16:47 GMT -5
Maybe relieving pressure is why some folks use a substance. It drives them to drink or use another substance of their choice or whatever is available. But there are other things that would drive a person to drink or use drugs-maybe they feel like they are going crazy! I recently did some research on drug use/abuse in the Vietnam War...pot became a problem among the soldiers over there...maybe it was that generation, but, it was also readily available at affordable prices-(may have even grown wild there, I don't know). So, the military cracked down on pot and the soldiers then turned to heroin, which was also quite available there, affordable, and good quality. They were right there in the heart of the "Golden Triangle"-at that time the largest producer of opium in the world. (Now, it is the Golden Crescent). I am sure there was also alcohol and cigarettes too. But, my point is, they turned to these substances for various reasons. The horrors of war. Missing their loved ones. Being so far from home. Wondering if they were going to get killed at any time or become injured. Low morale. Interestingly enough many of the heroin addicts in Vietnam got clean after they returned from the war; taken out of the environment. Most every war had its "drugs of choice". WWII was alcohol, cigarettes, and amphetamines. Civil War was morphine or laudanum, tobacco and likely alcohol. If you look at the history of alcohol, it was used a lot for medicinal purposes-even to stop pre-term labor! People used what they had. Fast forward to today and prescription pain meds are becoming more commonly abused. But another change in this generation, which I think is a positive change is that people are seeking the help of doctors more freely and without so much stigma. Some criticize the increased of usage of antidepressants and wonder why people can't just 'be strong' and 'tough it out'; learn to live with it. There has been quite a bit debate on this issue. Some folks feel that 'taking a pill' is somehow morally wrong and a cop out-with the mentality that people should just 'deal with their problems' and resolve them, etc. That works for some. But some people are FOOLED into thinking it's working when it's really not They think they have dealt with their issues when really they have not. Not truly. I would much rather live with someone who takes an antidepressant than live with someone who chooses to 'be tough', but never really gets better and a depressed person is hard to live with. The depressed person is not just 'down'. They can be very grouchy! Thanks, kurtzphil69, for your thoughtful post. You are right in many ways.
One of the reason so many young men of my generation were addicted to smoking was they started in WWII. The tobacco companies gave free cigarettes at USO centers which gave them a lucrative market for their product after the war.
Some of the teenagers of my sons generation turned to alcohol to relieve the pressure of problems in school for diseases that weren't recognized, such as ADD & ADHD.
Yes, some people still criticize usage of antidepressants and wonder why people can't just 'be strong' and 'tough it out'; learn to live with it" while they wouldn't say that to people who have a more easily identified disease like diabetes.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 22:17:54 GMT -5
emy do you mean why aren't alcoholic's treated with medication like other illnesses ?
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Post by emy on Sept 5, 2015 22:23:04 GMT -5
emy do you mean why aren't alcoholic's treated with medication like other illnesses ? Yes. I know of the one that makes you horribly sick if yoou take a drink, but that isn't like meds that get at the root of the problem.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 22:23:51 GMT -5
One of my sons has bi-polar. It is VERY hard to manage his medications!
I want to make a point about a person "acknowledging" the diagnosis, it has to do a whole lot more with finding a diagnosis! For years, from kindergarten throughout his early years as an adult, we searched, going to this medical facility to medical facility all over the country trying to find out a diagnosis & medication.
After much research on own we realized he has ADHD. Doctors, schools,counselors weren't yet aware of the problem, we had to teach THEM! Then we had to find a doctor who recognized the problem & prescribed medication. Had to travel half a state in order to get that.
There is also a comorbidity factor in many mental illness, "the simultaneous presence of two chronic diseases or conditions in a patient"
After much more searching he was found to have bi-polar.
Right now as I post,- my son has slept for two days & two nights. When he finally wakes up, he will be awake for the same amount of time or longer.
I get exceptionally angry when I hear someone who knows next to NOTHING about mental diseases spouting off that all he would need to do is "face his problem", "pull of his socks" and "get some guts!"
Can they tell me how a child in KINDERGARTEN AT FIVE YEARS OLD CAN DO THAT?
( PS. ) Thankfully, my son isn't alcoholic along with all his other problems, but thanks for your also posting about Alcoholism, that it
That knocks right out of the water the idea that people gradually become alcoholics and that they could have quit on their own at any time. I see the attitude by Christians towards Alcoholism as being a problem in morality instead of being a disease. You bring up a good point about children with ADHD. Some teachers are better than others at dealing with the issue. Sometimes they blame the parents for the behavior and insinuate they are 'bad parents' because of it. Little do they know, the thinking now is that ADHD is GENETIC. And if they think it is hard on them to deal with the behaviors, imagine how the ADHD kid feels. They feel misunderstood, for starters. "Why can't you just sit still??!. Why can't you just concentrate?! Why are you always 'spacing off'?!"I have one child with ADHD. Overall he's a great person. Tender hearted. His is perhaps not as severe as some and he graduated from college with a masters degree, etc. But his early education teachers often shook their heads in dismay. Most ADHD kids are actually very bright. He taught himself to play the guitar and goes all over the finger board with it...he usually doesn't play a song through all the way, though, and instead skips around mid-song to another song. This is likely a manifestation of his ADHD. His mind is always going...as a result he has struggled with insomnia. Ah, it takes someone with the experience of having a child with ADHD to understand!
Yes, we parents took a lot blame by teachers and workers for our sons behavior!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 22:29:11 GMT -5
I never condemned anyone.
it sorta is a war and casualties are high.
their simply better at it because they have faced their demon and conquered it I've had hundreds of cases pass by me and the ones that prosper(very few) did this its a known fact in the mental health community...
Wally, what are your credentials in the mental health community where that you have "hundreds of cases pass by you?"
I do hope it isn't counseling! I would hate to think that my son went to you for counseling & you told him to just "pull up his socks!" I am a case management aid I am surrounded by case managers, counselors, psychiatrists, and psychologists I have read all their reports been to numerous meetings I have even handled a number of cases myself including mentally ill and addiction cases and in EVERY case that I have read about talked about or seen for myself the ones who have some success(very few) are the ones that faced up to the condition they were in reached deep down inside of themselves and conquered it. case managers have said it the doctors have said it it is without question. is it easy? nope are there ups and downs? yep but It has been done...
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 22:30:51 GMT -5
emy do you mean why aren't alcoholic's treated with medication like other illnesses ? Yes. I know of the one that makes you horribly sick if yoou take a drink, but that isn't like meds that get at the root of the problem. I'm not following what you mean emy ? Do you mean why don't they take medication for mental illness ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 22:44:35 GMT -5
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Sept 5, 2015 22:57:05 GMT -5
but why isn't it treated with medication like others are? Excellent question! I've wondered that myself. I've come to believe that many people who abuse alcohol DO have an underlying mental or emotional problem, which is causing them mental or emotional pain. Alcohol DOES have pain relieving qualities. It was used in medicine for YEARS for that very reason. It's my personal belief that many alcoholics NEED to be on medication. (instead of alcohol) I think most (maybe not all) are self-medicating. Some people don't agree with that term: "Self medicating" and they see it as an EXCUSE. But I believe it is a very real thing. Why would they feel the need to 'self-medicate' with alcohol? For one thing, alcohol is legal, readily AVAILABLE, and fairly affordable for many folks. Why do people seek to self medicate? Many reasons, mental and emotional pain being right up there; torment. Pain can come from a large variety of sources or arise from a variety of factors. Grief is one. Loneliness another. Trauma. Some people just like the way it makes them feel even it's only temporary. Personally I outgrew wanting to go out and get drunk a long time ago because I didn't want to deal with the pain of hangovers and wasting an entire day being hungover. It wasn't worth those temporary moments of "feeling good". Pressure can also create pain. In the physical sense when nerve endings in our bodies have enough pressure put on them it hurts! The same thing can occur with other types of "pressure". Some folks can handle the pressure okay or can handle it for awhile, but after a while it gets to them and they want to escape. Best case scenario, I suppose is when a person can either handle the 'pressure' or find a way to relieve the pressure by problem solving or standing up to the forces putting the pressure on and getting them to back off. An example here is parents who put tremendous pressure on their kids to 'be perfect'. Some kids end up doing okay despite that, but some kids can only take so much before they seek an 'out'. We had some neighbors once who were so hard on their kids I felt sorry for them, I really did. They had to be perfect students. Anything less than an 'A' in a class was simply not tolerated. I didn't understand that at all, but I was never that type of parent. I guess they just wanted their kids to do well in life and felt that setting such a high standard was the way to do it. But, I don't know how those kids have turned out or if they are happier and more successful because of it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 23:03:42 GMT -5
Wally, what are your credentials in the mental health community where that you have "hundreds of cases pass by you?"
I do hope it isn't counseling! I would hate to think that my son went to you for counseling & you told him to just "pull up his socks!" I am a case management aid I am surrounded by case managers, counselors, psychiatrists, and psychologists I have read all their reports been to numerous meetings I have even handled a number of cases myself including mentally ill and addiction cases and in EVERY case that I have read about talked about or seen for myself the ones who have some success(very few) are the ones that faced up to the condition they were in reached deep down inside of themselves and conquered it. case managers have said it the doctors have said it it is without question. is it easy? nope are there ups and downs? yep but It has been done... So you are a case management aid?
I still DO NOT believe, nor do I like the use of those TERMS, "face up" to their condition and "reach deep down inside of themselves" to "conquer" it.
And I still am glad that my son DOES NOT have you for a counselor!
I wonder why I am thinking that the group that you worked with is a Christian counseling group? What ever group it is, -it must not being doing very well if, as you said yourself, very few, have had some success.
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Sept 5, 2015 23:26:11 GMT -5
You bring up a good point about children with ADHD. Some teachers are better than others at dealing with the issue. Sometimes they blame the parents for the behavior and insinuate they are 'bad parents' because of it. Little do they know, the thinking now is that ADHD is GENETIC. And if they think it is hard on them to deal with the behaviors, imagine how the ADHD kid feels. They feel misunderstood, for starters. "Why can't you just sit still??!. Why can't you just concentrate?! Why are you always 'spacing off'?!"I have one child with ADHD. Overall he's a great person. Tender hearted. His is perhaps not as severe as some and he graduated from college with a masters degree, etc. But his early education teachers often shook their heads in dismay. Most ADHD kids are actually very bright. He taught himself to play the guitar and goes all over the finger board with it...he usually doesn't play a song through all the way, though, and instead skips around mid-song to another song. This is likely a manifestation of his ADHD. His mind is always going...as a result he has struggled with insomnia. Ah, it takes someone with the experience of having a child with ADHD to understand!
Yes, we parents took a lot blame by teachers and workers for our sons behavior! Most of my in-laws are ADHD too, which brings in the genetic factor. The one's who are not ADHD are OCD. (chuckle) Some of them have anxiety issues. Why can't they just relax? It's not how they are wired. I love them dearly; all of them. Would I want to live with them? Not unless I absolutely had to...But they are ALL very bright people and there is never a dull moment! If you have any sort of mechanical, engineering, computer, or mathematical problem, they wouldn't hesitate to help you! Bunch of techno-wizards.
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Post by rational on Sept 5, 2015 23:33:08 GMT -5
The fact that addictive substances affect some people very severely and others not at all shows that there is some kind of physical component, but why isn't it treated with medication like others are? Sometimes it is. One goal of some of the medication is to limit the intake of alcohol. In other cases the medication is used to treat the underlying cause.
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Post by bitterbetty on Sept 5, 2015 23:58:19 GMT -5
I wonder why I am thinking that the group that you worked with is a Christian counseling group? What ever group it is, -it must not being doing very well if, as you said yourself, very few, have had some success.I can understand a person turning to their faith for strength and a higher power to overcome addiction, etc. But the problem I have with some religious folks is they frown on the use of meds-as if that is a sin too! Also some churches put a lot of pressure on their members to do this and do that and they actually create more stress than give peace. They don't tolerate 'weakness' very well - and say and do things and put forth attitudes that are shaming instead of empowering. I once heard one worker bad-mouthing another worker because she had been prescribed Valium for her anxiety. It was very clear that she viewed it as a moral weakness...and definitely did not understand it. My attitude is if a person needs Valium, they need Valium. Some people should be taking it who aren't! Well, I guess Xanax is more the drug of choice these days. A little Zyprexa in the water wouldn't hurt either.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 6, 2015 0:01:56 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2015 0:03:30 GMT -5
Ah, it takes someone with the experience of having a child with ADHD to understand!
Yes, we parents took a lot blame by teachers and workers for our sons behavior! Most of my in-laws are ADHD too, which brings in the genetic factor. The one's who are not ADHD are OCD. (chuckle) Some of them have anxiety issues. Why can't they just relax? It's not how they are wired. I love them dearly; all of them. Would I want to live with them? Not unless I absolutely had to...But they are ALL very bright people and there is never a dull moment! If you have any sort of mechanical, engineering, computer, or mathematical problem, they wouldn't hesitate to help you! Bunch of techno-wizards. I am certainly beginning to think there are genetic factors.
For some reason there are more males than females that have ADHD. Both of my sons had ADHD as children a lot of problems in school but have exceptional abilities as well.
One couldn't sit still in school but goggled up the magazine Scientific American from the age of ten. The other drew pictures all over his schools papers, now is a talented artist.
One never learned to read beyond the fifth grade but is able to maneuver the big city of Chicago & is socially adept enough to make up for all the rest of us.
The other can hardly talk to people & can not work, but can tell you more about the universe than you really want to hear, -gets started on a subject & can't let go.
My daughter probably had a bit of problem in school but is very capable & an all around phenomenal person; -great organizer, brainy philosopher, name it, she probably is.
Children! What a joy they can bring in spite of it all!
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 6, 2015 0:04:46 GMT -5
How many people have the same view on addiction as Virgo ? "everybody in the end has to abstain from something in their lives others have to abstain from things that make them addicts or they die because of some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition i don't really care what you think if you think i have lack of understanding, seeing as you know it all and you can enlighten all the dummies " @virgo, do you see people who have an addiction, as being "weak" ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2015 0:13:09 GMT -5
I wonder why I am thinking that the group that you worked with is a Christian counseling group? What ever group it is, -it must not being doing very well if, as you said yourself, very few, have had some success.I can understand a person turning to their faith for strength and a higher power to overcome addiction, etc. But the problem I have with some religious folks is they frown on the use of meds-as if that is a sin too! Also some churches put a lot of pressure on their members to do this and do that and they actually create more stress than give peace. They don't tolerate 'weakness' very well - and say and do things and put forth attitudes that are shaming instead of empowering. I once heard one worker bad-mouthing another worker because she had been prescribed Valium for her anxiety. It was very clear that she viewed it as a moral weakness...and definitely did not understand it. My attitude is if a person needs Valium, they need Valium. Some people should be taking it who aren't! Well, I guess Xanax is more the drug of choice these days. A little Zyprexa in the water wouldn't hurt either. Yes, I agree that a lot of workers were like that when my children were growing up. Blaming us for the way "we were raising our children". Already very stressful, not knowing what the problems were, they certainly didn't help the situation any.
However, I had one sister worker much later, actually after I was not professing, asked to borrow a book I had on various mental diseases. So, I would hope some are a bit more understanding these days.
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Sept 6, 2015 0:41:59 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2015 1:43:25 GMT -5
Thanks, kurtzphil69, that was very interesting!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 5:30:52 GMT -5
How many people have the same view on addiction as Virgo ? "everybody in the end has to abstain from something in their lives others have to abstain from things that make them addicts or they die because of some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition i don't really care what you think if you think i have lack of understanding, seeing as you know it all and you can enlighten all the dummies " @virgo, do you see people who have an addiction, as being "weak" ? do you think having an addiction is a sign of being "strong"?
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Post by blacksheep on Sept 6, 2015 6:16:56 GMT -5
do you think having an addiction is a sign of being "strong"? Do you think of people who get a cancer as weak people? Do you think of people who don't have cancer as strong people?
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Post by rational on Sept 6, 2015 9:06:15 GMT -5
@virgo, do you see people who have an addiction, as being "weak" ? do you think having an addiction is a sign of being "strong"? Logical fallacy of false dilemma/dichotomy.
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Post by blacksheep on Sept 6, 2015 10:08:15 GMT -5
I am a case management aid I am surrounded by case managers, counselors, psychiatrists, and psychologists I have read all their reports been to numerous meetings I have even handled a number of cases myself including mentally ill and addiction cases and in EVERY case that I have read about talked about or seen for myself the ones who have some success(very few) are the ones that faced up to the condition they were in reached deep down inside of themselves and conquered it. case managers have said it the doctors have said it it is without question. is it easy? nope are there ups and downs? yep but It has been done... The most successful counselors in alcoholism treatment are alcoholics in recovery themselves. Consider yourself fortunate if you are neither. There, but for the grace...etc. The most glaring flaw that I see in your post is the mistaken idea that the recovering alcoholic "conquers it" by tapping into some well of inner strength. No, a recovering alcoholic has come to realize that he never has and never will be able "conquer" alcohol. In other words, he surrenders. "I will not get back into the ring...I have been beaten, and if I choose to get back into the ring, I will get beaten again." A person that can say this did not conquer addiction. Its always there, waiting. All he has done is given himself a reprieve. Is that weakness? Maybe in some folks eyes it is. Its unconditional surrender, one day at a time. I know of what I speak, 22 years now, one day at a time... If my admitting my weakness has helped you feel stronger then so be it....be happy!
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Post by rational on Sept 6, 2015 10:45:44 GMT -5
The most successful counselors in alcoholism treatment are alcoholics in recovery themselves. Consider yourself fortunate if you are neither. There, but for the grace...etc. The most glaring flaw that I see in your post is the mistaken idea that the recovering alcoholic "conquers it" by tapping into some well of inner strength. No, a recovering alcoholic has come to realize that he never has and never will be able "conquer" alcohol. In other words, he surrenders. "I will not get back into the ring...I have been beaten, and if I choose to get back into the ring, I will get beaten again." A person that can say this did not conquer addiction. Its always there, waiting. All he has done is given himself a reprieve. Is that weakness? Maybe in some folks eyes it is. Its unconditional surrender, one day at a time. I know of what I speak, 22 years now, one day at a time... If my admitting my weakness has helped you feel stronger then so be it....be happy! If all you have is a hammer problems tend to look like nails.
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dano
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Post by dano on Sept 6, 2015 11:17:31 GMT -5
Has anyone read "When God Becomes a Drug" by Father Leo Booth? Basic premise, anything can become "addicted to" - some have been mentioned in this thread, alcohol, drugs, sugar, food, sex, etc. When it is "god" sufferers become extreme, always having to do or be "more" usually for the praise of religious athorities. I think they have been refered to as "syncophants" on TMB. P.S. Spell check is not working and I can't!
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Post by snow on Sept 6, 2015 11:25:50 GMT -5
Yes. I know of the one that makes you horribly sick if yoou take a drink, but that isn't like meds that get at the root of the problem. I'm not following what you mean emy ? Do you mean why don't they take medication for mental illness ? There is medication, like Emy is stating, that helps with alcoholism by making you deathly ill if you touch alcohol. I had a few guys on it at the halfway house. It was a condition of their parole that they abstained and if alcohol was their addiction they would take that medication. It really does make them sick when they touch alcohol. One guy did drink and got so ill. Unfortunately his response to it was to quit taking the pills instead of quit drinking. He had been doing very well and all it took was one drink again even though he had become so sick.
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Post by blacksheep on Sept 6, 2015 11:27:28 GMT -5
If all you have is a hammer problems tend to look like nails. With all due respect to good intentions, some counselors would make better carpenters.
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Post by snow on Sept 6, 2015 12:08:58 GMT -5
@virgo, do you see people who have an addiction, as being "weak" ? do you think having an addiction is a sign of being "strong"? Actually sometimes they are much stronger than most people. If you understand mental illness at all you will understand the huge impact it has on lives. Before diagnosis and even after diagnosis, these people deal with much than a normal person can even dream of dealing with. They may self medicate to feel better, but do you have any concept of how awful they need to be feeling to have to do that? I have a pretty good understanding of addictions working with Corrections Canada in a halfway house and in the Community Service Division of John Howard Society. I also have personal experience with taking drugs that are addictive that were prescribed for my pain management. While I never became psychologically addicted I know what it's like to come off of one and go through the physiological withdrawal. It's not pretty and it takes an incredibly strong person mentally to do it. Just how much more difficult would it be for someone who was also dependent on it psychologically? I can't imagine actually. The physiological withdrawal was brutal enough. So do I think those with mental illnesses are strong? Oh yes! The desperation they must feel and still choose to stay alive! It must be enormous strength. It would be so much easier just to end it all then to go through the pain some tolerate daily. I have a nephew that is bi polar and we are quite close so he talks to me about it a lot. He is struggling and is still refusing medication but also knows he can't use because he is on day parole and it is a condition of his parole. I am his sounding board so I hear the down and out along with the euphoric phases and I have no end of respect for him and what he goes through all the time. So you tell me Wally, are they weak or stronger than you could ever imagine?
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