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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 20:07:49 GMT -5
How many people have the same view on addiction as Virgo ? "everybody in the end has to abstain from something in their lives others have to abstain from things that make them addicts or they die because of some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition i don't really care what you think if you think i have lack of understanding, seeing as you know it all and you can enlighten all the dummies "
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 20:13:07 GMT -5
part of conquering addiction is having the courage to face what you are(grow some guts) however not everyone can do that...I know because my father was an alcoholic and couldn't do it no matter how many times he tried...
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 20:15:26 GMT -5
part of conquering addiction is having the courage to face what you are(grow some guts) however not everyone can do that...I know because my father was an alcoholic and couldn't do it no matter how many times he tried... So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 20:21:54 GMT -5
part of conquering addiction is having the courage to face what you are(grow some guts) however not everyone can do that...I know because my father was an alcoholic and couldn't do it no matter how many times he tried... So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ? although significantly harder yes the same reasoning can apply not everyone can do it successfully that doesn't mean we can't ask them to try as with alcoholics mentally ill people can be very resistant to getting help if they don't face themselves and seek treatment on their own for themselves...
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 20:25:53 GMT -5
So you agree with @virgo's quote "some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition" ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 20:29:02 GMT -5
So you agree with @virgo's quote "some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition" ? I don't know about the blaming part but facing yourself(grow some guts) I agree with
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 20:34:15 GMT -5
So you agree with @virgo's quote "some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition" ? I don't know about the blaming part but facing yourself(grow some guts) I agree with And that is exactly what I have a problem with, people who have no understanding of alcohol addiction or mental illness saying things like @virgo has said ! Portraying that people who have addictions just need to get over it is the view that people had 20 years ago !
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 4, 2015 22:32:55 GMT -5
I don't know about the blaming part but facing yourself(grow some guts) I agree with And that is exactly what I have a problem with, people who have no understanding of alcohol addiction or mental illness saying things like @virgo has said ! Portraying that people who have addictions just need to get over it is the view that people had 20 years ago ! I agree.
Wally, Would tell someone that had a deformed or broken leg to just "grow some guts" & start walking straight? I doubt it, at least I would hope you wouldn't be that unkind. Why? Because you can see the difference in the person's leg?
Why is it so difficult to understand that just because you cannot see something that the causes "addictions" that "addictions" have been researched & found that the person has every much of a problem as the person with the deformed or broken leg?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 22:58:00 GMT -5
I don't know about the blaming part but facing yourself(grow some guts) I agree with And that is exactly what I have a problem with, people who have no understanding of alcohol addiction or mental illness saying things like @virgo has said ! Portraying that people who have addictions just need to get over it is the view that people had 20 years ago ! I have understanding of alcohol addiction and mental illness I've worked with the mentally ill for 20 years and in every(few) successful case the person came to face themselves(grow some guts)sought help and overcame their addiction and or mental illness...I think your not interpreting virgos response he said nothing about "getting over it" getting over it and growing some guts are two very different things...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 23:03:20 GMT -5
And that is exactly what I have a problem with, people who have no understanding of alcohol addiction or mental illness saying things like @virgo has said ! Portraying that people who have addictions just need to get over it is the view that people had 20 years ago ! I agree.
Wally, Would tell someone that had a deformed or broken leg to just "grow some guts" & start walking straight? I doubt it, at least I would hope you wouldn't be that unkind. Why? Because you can see the difference in the person's leg?
Why is it so difficult to understand that just because you cannot see something that the causes "addictions" that "addictions" have been researched & found that the person has every much of a problem as the person with the deformed or broken leg?shame on you dmmichgood you being a nurse should know better, everyone with a disability has to face their condition and realize who they are before they can conquer it...
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Post by bluejay on Sept 4, 2015 23:54:55 GMT -5
Mental illness and addictions often rob people of their ability to have insight in to their own condition. "Getting over it" and "growing some guts" are both unhelpful ways to speak to someone with an addiction or mental illness. Both diseases (and yes, addiction IS a disease) are not conditions that can be overcome with willpower alone. And to approach someone under the spell of addiction with that attitude can be harmful. The brain of an addict functions very differently from someone who is not addicted to a substance, which could be alcohol, drugs, cigarettes or even sugar. And to tell someone who is deep in depression to just "grow some guts" is ludicrous.
From my experience, people in both categories already don't love themselves, and often don't feel worthy of good things. What they need is unconditional love and support. I have several friends in 12 step recovery programs, and I 100% endorse their recovery process and method. LONG before an addict can truly face their 'condition', they need to be supported, accepted, and loved for who they are. They need to understand what made them become an addict, and why they had a need to escape from reality. Recovery from addiction not only involves facing their demon, but it also gives them a wonderful opportunity to learn about forgiveness and mercy.
Fortunately our society now is beginning to understand that mental illness is not something that can be cured by the patient "pulling up their socks" and getting on with life. It is a medical condition that often requires medication before any self help can be initiated. And an addiction is brutally difficult to overcome.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 0:43:03 GMT -5
part of conquering addiction is having the courage to face what you are(grow some guts) however not everyone can do that...I know because my father was an alcoholic and couldn't do it no matter how many times he tried... So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ? I agree with Wally and Virgo regarding addiction, although also i believe some types of mental illness aren't something you can just give up as your sick. But others such as alcoholism you can, it's hard, but it can be done. I've lived with an alcoholic, and growing up I've been around another member of my family who was addicted to alcohol and its a living hell. I understand that with some people, there are underlying issues. And I feel Sorry for them. But for others there isn't and I'm afraid that just saying they can't help it is wrong, especially, when their family are suffering. I'm afraid that the person who's sits getting drunk and abusive every night, needs to do just that "grow some guts" and face their problems, firstly by admitting they have a problem! For the sake of themselves and their families! The alcoholics I've known had no underlying issues, they started with the odd glass which went to two, and ended up on bottles and cans every night. I'm afraid they were selfish. Although that's not the same for everyone. But it's true in the cases of the people I lived with and around. And for those of us, who believe in God, I believe that God gives us the strength to overcome. With faith, prayer and fasting we can overcome addiction and God can give us the help to do so.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 1:02:08 GMT -5
So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ? I agree with Wally and Virgo regarding addiction, although also i believe some types of mental illness aren't something you can just give up as your sick. But others such as alcoholism you can, it's hard, but it can be done. I've lived with an alcoholic, and growing up I've been around another member of my family who was addicted to alcohol and its a living hell. I understand that with some people, there are underlying issues and I feel Sorry for them. But for others there isn't and I'm afraid that just saying they can't help it is wrong, especially, when their family are suffering. I'm afraid that the person who's sits getting drunk and abusive every night, needs to do just that "grow some guts" and face their problems, firstly by admitting they have a problem! For the sake of themselves and their families! The alcoholics I've known had no underlying issues, they started with the odd glass which went to two, and ended up on bottles and cans every night. I'm afraid they were Although that's not the same for everyone. But it's true in the cases of the people I lived with and around.And for those of us, who believe in God, I believe that God gives us the strength to overcome. With faith, prayer and fasting we can overcome addiction and God can give us the help to do so. I am sure that it is very difficult for people who live with someone with an addiction but it isn't just a matter of "underlying issues," addictions are a disease within it's self.
You can't be sure that all the that the people who you lived around just needed to "grow some guts" and face their problems.
Would you expect someone who had diabetes to "grow some guts" and face their problems? Do you believe that someone with diabetes could overcome their diabetes with "prayer and fasting and God can give us (them) the help to do so?"
My point is that until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 1:09:07 GMT -5
And that is exactly what I have a problem with, people who have no understanding of alcohol addiction or mental illness saying things like @virgo has said ! Portraying that people who have addictions just need to get over it is the view that people had 20 years ago ! I have understanding of alcohol addiction and mental illness I've worked with the mentally ill for 20 years and in every(few) successful case the person came to face themselves(grow some guts)sought help and overcame their addiction and or mental illness...I think your not interpreting virgos response he said nothing about "getting over it" getting over it and growing some guts are two very different things... Well maybe @virgo should clarify exactly what he means !
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 1:12:54 GMT -5
I agree with Wally and Virgo regarding addiction, although also i believe some types of mental illness aren't something you can just give up as your sick. But others such as alcoholism you can, it's hard, but it can be done. I've lived with an alcoholic, and growing up I've been around another member of my family who was addicted to alcohol and its a living hell. I understand that with some people, there are underlying issues and I feel Sorry for them. But for others there isn't and I'm afraid that just saying they can't help it is wrong, especially, when their family are suffering. I'm afraid that the person who's sits getting drunk and abusive every night, needs to do just that "grow some guts" and face their problems, firstly by admitting they have a problem! For the sake of themselves and their families! The alcoholics I've known had no underlying issues, they started with the odd glass which went to two, and ended up on bottles and cans every night. I'm afraid they were Although that's not the same for everyone. But it's true in the cases of the people I lived with and around.And for those of us, who believe in God, I believe that God gives us the strength to overcome. With faith, prayer and fasting we can overcome addiction and God can give us the help to do so. I am sure that it is very difficult for people who live with someone with an addiction but it isn't just a matter of "underlying issues," addictions are a disease within it's self.
You can't be sure that all the that the people who you lived around just needed to "grow some guts" and face their problems.
Would you expect someone who had diabetes to "grow some guts" and face their problems? Do you believe that someone with diabetes could overcome their diabetes with "prayer and fasting and God can give us (them) the help to do so?"
My point is that until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have. Exactly DMG ! " until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have.[/b][/font] [/quote] I also understand that there comes a time in an addicts life that they are the only ones that can help themselves if THEY want to, but that does not take away from the fact that these are diseases not just moral problems as DMG has said.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 1:12:55 GMT -5
I agree with Wally and Virgo regarding addiction, although also i believe some types of mental illness aren't something you can just give up as your sick. But others such as alcoholism you can, it's hard, but it can be done. I've lived with an alcoholic, and growing up I've been around another member of my family who was addicted to alcohol and its a living hell. I understand that with some people, there are underlying issues and I feel Sorry for them. But for others there isn't and I'm afraid that just saying they can't help it is wrong, especially, when their family are suffering. I'm afraid that the person who's sits getting drunk and abusive every night, needs to do just that "grow some guts" and face their problems, firstly by admitting they have a problem! For the sake of themselves and their families! The alcoholics I've known had no underlying issues, they started with the odd glass which went to two, and ended up on bottles and cans every night. I'm afraid they were Although that's not the same for everyone. But it's true in the cases of the people I lived with and around.And for those of us, who believe in God, I believe that God gives us the strength to overcome. With faith, prayer and fasting we can overcome addiction and God can give us the help to do so. I am sure that it is very difficult for people who live with someone with an addiction but it isn't just a matter of "underlying issues," addictions are a disease within it's self.
You can't be sure that all the that the people who you lived around just needed to "grow some guts" and face their problems.
Would you expect someone who had diabetes to "grow some guts" and face their problems? Do you believe that someone with diabetes could overcome their diabetes with "prayer and fasting and God can give us (them) the help to do so?"
My point is that until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have.I'm not on about diseases, diabetes is nothing like alcoholism! I've been on the receiving end, and I've been the one living with someone who is hammered on booze and who was very abusive blaming the whole world and never looking at themselves! I was sick of poor me! What about the poor children of the person who won't face their problems? I'm not talking about all alcoholics, and I know there are some who have suffered terribly and don't hurt others and I feel for them. But, I'm going by my own experience. When your hurting all those around you, then it's time to stop!
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 1:17:42 GMT -5
I am sure that it is very difficult for people who live with someone with an addiction but it isn't just a matter of "underlying issues," addictions are a disease within it's self.
You can't be sure that all the that the people who you lived around just needed to "grow some guts" and face their problems.
Would you expect someone who had diabetes to "grow some guts" and face their problems? Do you believe that someone with diabetes could overcome their diabetes with "prayer and fasting and God can give us (them) the help to do so?"
My point is that until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have. Exactly DMG ! " until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have. [/b] [/font] [/quote] Some may have a alcoholic disease, I don't know about that. But the people I know got addicted by starting with drinking socially and then progressed to having a few at home, to being hammered every night and blaming everyone else. Theres no excuse for getting to a state where you are abusing your family.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 1:22:57 GMT -5
maryhig, my late ex was an alcoholic, I have witnessed first hand the effect alcohol has on a family. 10 years ago I thought the same way as you, that he should just "get over it" but I realised that it was a disease the same as any other disease and by saying "just get over it" it made it worse. It was the underlying issues that he would not deal with that caused him drink. Yes there comes a time when enough is enough & if they don't want help we have to walk away, but we have to understand why also.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 1:23:51 GMT -5
Exactly DMG ! " until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have. [/b] [/font] [/quote] Some may have a alcoholic disease, I don't know about that. But the people I know got addicted by starting with drinking socially and then progressed to having a few at home, to being hammered every night and blaming everyone else. Theres no excuse for getting to a state where you are abusing your family. [/quote] Some people have mental illness and use alcohol as an escape.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 1:27:37 GMT -5
[/b] [/font] [/quote] Some may have a alcoholic disease, I don't know about that. But the people I know got addicted by starting with drinking socially and then progressed to having a few at home, to being hammered every night and blaming everyone else. Theres no excuse for getting to a state where you are abusing your family. [/quote] Some people have mental illness and use alcohol as an escape.[/quote] I agree with that, but those around me didn't, that's not true for all people! I knew the members of my family well. They got hooked by starting to drink socially then bringing it home, starting with one or two and progressing from there.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 1:29:30 GMT -5
Exactly DMG ! " until people understand that addictions are diseases rather than moral problems, -you are being judgmental & not treating them for the disease that they have. Some may have a alcoholic disease, I don't know about that. But the people I know got addicted by starting with drinking socially and then progressed to having a few at home, to being hammered every night and blaming everyone else. Theres no excuse for getting to a state where you are abusing your family. [/quote] No, You don't know that, Maryhig.
How many people can also "drink socially and also have few at home," yet never become addicted? You are judging that to be the case in the people that you know & it may NOT be the reason.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 1:36:28 GMT -5
Some may have a alcoholic disease, I don't know about that. But the people I know got addicted by starting with drinking socially and then progressed to having a few at home, to being hammered every night and blaming everyone else. Theres no excuse for getting to a state where you are abusing your family. No, You don't know that, Maryhig.
How many people can also "drink socially and also have few at home," yet never become addicted? You are judging that to be the case in the people that you know & it may NOT be the reason.
[/quote] I'm afraid it is, how do you know? You don't even know them? Your judging me! I lived with them. I know, I grew up with one, and the other I knew from a teenager. And they had no reason to abuse alcohol. You can go on and on about it being an illness. But I'm still hearing things from my children now. Over 20 years later. My daughter told my mum something last week, that I didn't know. I sobbed my heart out when my mum told me! Have you lived with a violent alcoholic?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 1:40:49 GMT -5
maryhig, can we really say a person has no reason to abuse alcohol? Do we really know how they are feeling ? Like in the case of my ex-husband, people looking on seen a very confident smart person, who had a great job and appeared to be happy.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 1:44:55 GMT -5
maryhig, can w really say a person has no reason to abuse alcohol? Do we really know how they are feeling ? Like in the case of my ex-husband, people looking on seen a very confident smart person, who had a great job and appeared to be happy. As I said I'm going i'm my own experience, I don't know anything about your ex husband or anyone else's. I'm saying, from my experience, not all alcoholism is an illness or a disease. And as in the people I knew. If they had of faced up to their drinking problems, they could have conquered it.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 1:47:57 GMT -5
maryhig, alcoholism is a disease whether we like it or not ! When you say if they had faced up to the drinking they could have conquered it, what do you mean "faced up to it"? It is the abuse of the alcohol that is the problem NOT the alcohol itself. What are your views on people drinking socially ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 1:53:43 GMT -5
maryhig, can w really say a person has no reason to abuse alcohol? Do we really know how they are feeling ? Like in the case of my ex-husband, people looking on seen a very confident smart person, who had a great job and appeared to be happy. As I said I'm going in my own experience, I don't know anything about your ex husband or anyone else's. I'm saying, from my experience, not all alcoholism is an illness or a disease. And as in the people I knew. If they had of faced up to their drinking problems, they could have conquered it. Maryhig , YOU simply don't KNOW that they could have conquered it!
Aren't you being judgmental? Do you not question that your judgment might be wrong in this situation?
You are treating it as a moral problem & it could have been a medical problem.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 1:55:40 GMT -5
maryhig, alcoholism is a disease whether we like it or not ! When you say if they had faced up to the drinking they could have conquered it, what do you mean "faced up to it"? It is the abuse of the alcohol that is the problem NOT the alcohol itself. What are your views on people drinking socially ? I mean faced up to drinking too much and hurting their family! I'm sorry Roslyn, but when your hurting all those around you through your abuse of alcohol, then it's time to stop! You can't blame all alcoholism on illness and disease. I'm afraid that doesn't wash with me. As for social drinking, well that's up to each individual, I'm not a judge. I can only go by my experiences!
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Post by maryhig on Sept 5, 2015 1:57:01 GMT -5
As I said I'm going in my own experience, I don't know anything about your ex husband or anyone else's. I'm saying, from my experience, not all alcoholism is an illness or a disease. And as in the people I knew. If they had of faced up to their drinking problems, they could have conquered it. Maryhig , YOU simply don't KNOW that they could have conquered it!
Aren't you being judgmental? Do you not question that your judgment might be wrong in this situation?
You are treating it as a moral problem & it could have been a medical problem.
As I said, have you lived with a violent alcoholic, as in a husband? And did you know those members of my family personally?
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