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Post by bitterbetty on Sept 5, 2015 16:11:31 GMT -5
An interesting case study for me is to look at performing musicians-partly because I received a small taste of what it's like and I was only a part-time semi-pro musician for about 8 years. Most of our audiences were small, not overly formal and very forgiving-STILL there was pressure whenever we got up on stage! I love the music, love making the music. Loved playing it for others. And I admit-I loved a great applause. But, it created PRESSURE. We knew we were good. We knew we had something special. How far were we willing to go with that? Most of the people in my band had terrible stage fright. I didn't, really. But their stage fright alone created a stressful situation for me. I grew very weary of it and tried to help them overcome, with a small degree of success. I remember encouraging them once to just pretend we were all sitting around in a living room just 'making music'. (Just so happens there is an audience there that expects something). So, does it boil down to the EXPECTATIONS of others? Yes, but what also drives a person is EXPECTATIONS they have placed upon their self! Perhaps people were not EXPECTING as much from us as we PERCEIVED! So, for me, there came a point in which I needed to learn to just get up on stage and enjoy the process for myself and not worry so much about what others expected-block it out, so to speak. So then, if a performer is not really enjoying the process for their self, that is a problem. If you don't ENJOY what you do, that is a problem. If you are mainly doing something to perform for others, that is a problem. You gotta enjoy what you do-or it catches up to you. It takes honesty to face the fact that you are no longer enjoying something and face the real reasons why you continue to do it, even though you are not enjoying it!
This is no different than someone being trapped in a profession they really don't love...but it might be the only 'living' they know how to do and they are trapped by needing to pay the bills. Of course the "ideal" is to make a living at something you really love. And a lot of folks start out that way, but over the years they can lose that love and that in turn CHANGES so many things as your living impacts the rest of your life.
Another thing that can enter into performance pressure is competition. While some folks THRIVE with competition and the pressure it creates, others don't do so well and suffocate. Even amongst small time performers competition can arise. Who can be the best? Who can play the hottest break? Who can stay the busiest and be in the greatest demand? Who is the hardest working band? I soon discovered that quantity did not always equal quality. A person can get so caught up in performing that they have a hard time saying "no" to every request to perform. But, performing all the time takes it's toll even if you are not on a concert tour across the country. I remember having a hard sleeping after a night performance. It was like my brain just wouldn't shut off. And then, sometimes there were energy lags before a performance that I worried about. It takes energy to perform. To help with stage fright, many performing musicians feel they need to drink alcohol-which they also justify as helping them "loosen up" on stage and perform even better. Some musicians swear by this...
But, it's interesting to me to compare the musicians who DON'T use substances to perform as opposed to those who do...I went to a guitar workshop once and one of the students asked the instructors what he used to help him perform better. The instructor was a bit surprised by the question, but answered, "I don't use anything. You don't have to use a substance to perform better." The student that asked the question had just assumed that MANY or MOST professional musicians used substances to enhance their performance. And while it's true that many do, it's not a necessity. Will they ever have drug testing for professional musicians? Not likely. But, using drugs/alcohol is very common in the profession. And I think what it mainly boils down to in pressure, expectations, and coping with the lifestyle.
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Post by bluejay on Sept 5, 2015 16:19:52 GMT -5
Fortunately our society now is beginning to understand that mental illness is not something that can be cured by the patient "pulling up their socks" and getting on with life. It is a medical condition that often requires medication before any self help can be initiated. And an addiction is brutally difficult to overcome. unfortunately the only way to get someone on medication is for them to "pulling up their socks" face their condition and move forward getting on medication is self help... Hi Wally, I have(unfortunately) personal experience with bi-polar disease. The person first required intervention by the family, where medication and therapy were mandated. It wasn't until their mood stabilized that they could begin to face their condition and take steps to help themselves. I think we all know that either an addict or someone with mental illness will need to accept their condition before their life can change. The differences in our opinions I believe is like the old "what comes first, the chicken or the egg?" question. My belief is the "pulling up of their socks" or "growing some guts" only can happen after they come to understand they have a disease or problem.
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Post by whyisitso on Sept 5, 2015 16:36:48 GMT -5
unfortunately the only way to get someone on medication is for them to "pulling up their socks" face their condition and move forward getting on medication is self help... Hi Wally, I have(unfortunately) personal experience with bi-polar disease. The person first required intervention by the family, where medication and therapy were mandated. It wasn't until their mood stabilized that they could begin to face their condition and take steps to help themselves. I think we all know that either an addict or someone with mental illness will need to accept their condition before their life can change. The differences in our opinions I believe is like the old "what comes first, the chicken or the egg?" question. My belief is the "pulling up of their socks" or "growing some guts" only can happen after they come to understand they have a disease or problem. Absolutely agree bluejay. Someone, especially on a bi-polar high can be of the mind they can conquer the world. It's hard to rein that in and takes a lot of love & patience. And sometimes all the love & kindness in the world won't get them to the point of accepting help.
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Post by bluejay on Sept 5, 2015 16:42:21 GMT -5
Addiction is a three-fold disease. It affects the addict on a physical, mental and spiritual level. It this were the case it would be true for everyone. I think you would be safe to strike the spiritual piece from your claim.It is time to face up to the truth. AA is not a success story. In fact few, is any, of the 12 step programs can claim success. A 5% success rate is not great. www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failures-of-12-steps/284616/No comment on the role of a paranormal entity. Hi rational, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this discussion. I respect your common sense approach to many issues discussed here. In my experience with AA, there is a necessary third realm that needs to be addressed when encountering recovery from addiction. AA defines it as "spiritual". And people are free to decide what that means to them personally. For an atheist or agnostic, it could be their innate sense of moral guidance, their ability to tap in to their compassionate side, feeling at one with nature, etc. etc. It just simply requires the members to look beyond themselves, and see themselves as part of a bigger picture. (Not sure if I'm explaining that correctly). It helps to re-frame the victim mentality which many addicts have been living with for a long time. And yes, I am aware of the 5% success rate of 12 step programs. I honestly haven't looked in to the statistics for non-12 step recovery centres and programs. I just know that treatment centres can be too costly for a lot of addicts, and the 12 step programs are affordable for anyone and everyone.
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Post by bluejay on Sept 5, 2015 16:50:26 GMT -5
An interesting case study for me is to look at performing musicians-partly because I received a small taste of what it's like and I was only a part-time semi-pro musician for about 8 years. Most of our audiences were small, not overly formal and very forgiving-STILL there was pressure whenever we got up on stage! I love the music, love making the music. Loved playing it for others. And I admit-I loved a great applause. But, it created PRESSURE. We knew we were good. We knew we had something special. How far were we willing to go with that? Most of the people in my band had terrible stage fright. I didn't, really. But their stage fright alone created a stressful situation for me. I grew very weary of it and tried to help them overcome, with a small degree of success. I remember encouraging them once to just pretend we were all sitting around in a living room just 'making music'. (Just so happens there is an audience there that expects something). So, does it boil down to the EXPECTATIONS of others? Yes, but what also drives a person is EXPECTATIONS they have placed upon their self! Perhaps people were not EXPECTING as much from us as we PERCEIVED! So, for me, there came a point in which I needed to learn to just get up on stage and enjoy the process for myself and not worry so much about what others expected-block it out, so to speak. So then, if a performer is not really enjoying the process for their self, that is a problem. If you don't ENJOY what you do, that is a problem. If you are mainly doing something to perform for others, that is a problem. You gotta enjoy what you do-or it catches up to you. It takes honesty to face the fact that you are no longer enjoying something and face the real reasons why you continue to do it, even though you are not enjoying it! This is no different than someone being trapped in a profession they really don't love...but it might be the only 'living' they know how to do and they are trapped by needing to pay the bills. Of course the "ideal" is to make a living at something you really love. And a lot of folks start out that way, but over the years they can lose that love and that in turn CHANGES so many things as your living impacts the rest of your life. Another thing that can enter into performance pressure is competition. While some folks THRIVE with competition and the pressure it creates, others don't do so well and suffocate. Even amongst small time performers competition can arise. Who can be the best? Who can play the hottest break? Who can stay the busiest and be in the greatest demand? Who is the hardest working band? I soon discovered that quantity did not always equal quality. A person can get so caught up in performing that they have a hard time saying "no" to every request to perform. But, performing all the time takes it's toll even if you are not on a concert tour across the country. I remember having a hard sleeping after a night performance. It was like my brain just wouldn't shut off. And then, sometimes there were energy lags before a performance that I worried about. It takes energy to perform. To help with stage fright, many performing musicians feel they need to drink alcohol-which they also justify as helping them "loosen up" on stage and perform even better. Some musicians swear by this... But, it's interesting to me to compare the musicians who DON'T use substances to perform as opposed to those who do...I went to a guitar workshop once and one of the students asked the instructors what he used to help him perform better. The instructor was a bit surprised by the question, but answered, "I don't use anything. You don't have to use a substance to perform better." The student that asked the question had just assumed that MANY or MOST professional musicians used substances to enhance their performance. And while it's true that many do, it's not a necessity. Will they ever have drug testing for professional musicians? Not likely. But, using drugs/alcohol is very common in the profession. And I think what it mainly boils down to in pressure, expectations, and coping with the lifestyle. I like this post! Expectations can be SO powerful in our lives. When we learn to just take life as it comes, and be grateful for the blessings we do encounter, we've made great strides towards happiness. I like my friends and family so much more now that they don't fall short of my expectations (that of course they weren't even aware I expected them to meet). Yeah, pressure and perfectionism are buzz kills too.
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Sept 5, 2015 16:54:32 GMT -5
I don't know about the blaming part but facing yourself(grow some guts) I agree with Having worked with mental health patients in the area of Forensic, I do agree that acknowledging there is a problem and a link between their mental illness and their incarcerations is a good first step. This goes for any addictions that rule your life. However when it comes to diseases such as bi polar it's a different matter. Schizophrenia has some medications that work pretty well to diminish the auditory and visual hallucinations the disease triggers but the side effects are pretty ugly especially for young males. This makes it harder. Once the link has been acknowledged and medications are taken even after they start to feel better, then we see some progress. However, in the case of bi-polar there is less success in the medications we currently have for the disease. It is a hard one to medicate likely because of the extremes in mood swings. It's hard to find the right one and then the right dosage to deal with extreme depression at one time and then extreme euphoria the next time. Even when the person acknowledges and accepts the diagnosis and links it to their problems it still doesn't mean they will be successfully medicated. So it's not as straight forward as virgo has made it sound. I not just having the guts to acknowledge you have a disease that causes problems for you, it's sometimes finding the right treatment. Bi Polar is by far the hardest one and a lot of people actually are bi polar. Some may only have a milder version of it making it easier to treat, but some don't get success even if they have acknowledged it and are trying to get help in the form of medications. For many years Lithium was the only option and it was a horrific drug to take due to the side effects. We now are seeing more drugs on the market, newer with less side effects, but they are still not all that great. Alcoholism is not just about getting the guts to quit either. I have spoken to people in AA groups that I have helped run through the halfway house I worked at and many of the people I worked with over the years said that they were hooked from their very first taste. They knew. So when workers don't use wine for the emblems because it could cause an alcoholic to use again, they are quite right. All it takes in some cases is one sip for an alcoholic. In the case of those who said it took one drink to know, it also appears that for some people that's all it takes to start them down that road. Compassion is needed in all cases imo. I think part the problem with mental illness is that they don't know EXACTLY what causes it; what triggers it. There are theories. There is genetics. For many, it could be a matter of PTSD; whether it is childhood trauma or trauma later in life. In many cases PTSD is overlooked. Meaning it is not fully recognized just how much TRAUMA a person may have inflicted on their life. ANY trauma can cause a person to suffer from PTSD. PTSD can in turn lead to substance use/abuse. My mother suffered somewhat from PTSD early in her marriage. She didn't turn to substances to cope, but she DID have depression. Later on-she tended to go 'overboard' with some of her principles in life and took some things to an extreme. That was her way of coping. Would she have been better off with therapy and medication? Yes, likely so. But in her day/age, that was not something very many people even thought to seek out. It was considered shameful and weak, (unfortunately) I heard a psychiatrist once give a theory on how childhood abuse can cause a person to become bi polar. Abuse can often come in "cycles". It can also be ritualistic. The abused soon learns to interpret the mood and behaviors of the abuser that might lead to being abused (again). Things might good for a time period with no episodes of abuse. But, it can then cycle back into abusive episode....these "episodes" can in turn create in the abused a certain cycle, as what often happens with a bi polar person. They cycle.Perhaps this was just a way of saying that a person who has to live in a bi polar environment, can develop bi polar illness their self. Like I say, it is just on 'theory' that was explained to me once upon a time-but I can see the relevance. Another thing that creates bi polar behavior is substance use/abuse. Ever wonder why a certain person is so 'moody'? It can at times be traced to what they are 'on' (being 'up' or euphoric) or how long it's been since their last 'fix', (whatever that fix may be)-which can display itself by a person being grumpy, on edge, or just downright nasty.
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Post by bluejay on Sept 5, 2015 16:57:17 GMT -5
I don't know about the blaming part but facing yourself(grow some guts) I agree with Having worked with mental health patients in the area of Forensic, I do agree that acknowledging there is a problem and a link between their mental illness and their incarcerations is a good first step. This goes for any addictions that rule your life. However when it comes to diseases such as bi polar it's a different matter. Schizophrenia has some medications that work pretty well to diminish the auditory and visual hallucinations the disease triggers but the side effects are pretty ugly especially for young males. This makes it harder. Once the link has been acknowledged and medications are taken even after they start to feel better, then we see some progress. However, in the case of bi-polar there is less success in the medications we currently have for the disease. It is a hard one to medicate likely because of the extremes in mood swings. It's hard to find the right one and then the right dosage to deal with extreme depression at one time and then extreme euphoria the next time. Even when the person acknowledges and accepts the diagnosis and links it to their problems it still doesn't mean they will be successfully medicated. So it's not as straight forward as virgo has made it sound. I not just having the guts to acknowledge you have a disease that causes problems for you, it's sometimes finding the right treatment. Bi Polar is by far the hardest one and a lot of people actually are bi polar. Some may only have a milder version of it making it easier to treat, but some don't get success even if they have acknowledged it and are trying to get help in the form of medications. For many years Lithium was the only option and it was a horrific drug to take due to the side effects. We now are seeing more drugs on the market, newer with less side effects, but they are still not all that great. Alcoholism is not just about getting the guts to quit either. I have spoken to people in AA groups that I have helped run through the halfway house I worked at and many of the people I worked with over the years said that they were hooked from their very first taste. They knew. So when workers don't use wine for the emblems because it could cause an alcoholic to use again, they are quite right. All it takes in some cases is one sip for an alcoholic. In the case of those who said it took one drink to know, it also appears that for some people that's all it takes to start them down that road. Compassion is needed in all cases imo. I agree with everything you've said above snow. Kudos to the workers for having the wisdom to use grape juice for the emblems. I think your last sentence hits the nail on the head. Compassion IS needed in all cases.
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Post by rational on Sept 5, 2015 17:25:25 GMT -5
But, using drugs/alcohol is very common in the profession. In many professions. It comes down to the difference between using and abusing. Beta blockers help some musicians overcome stage fright.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 17:26:35 GMT -5
Fortunately our society now is beginning to understand that mental illness is not something that can be cured by the patient "pulling up their socks" and getting on with life. It is a medical condition that often requires medication before any self help can be initiated. And an addiction is brutally difficult to overcome. unfortunately the only way to get someone on medication is for them to "pulling up their socks" face their condition and move forward getting on medication is self help... You are still at it aren't you, wally?
You Just can't give up that old idea that the person is responsible for their mental illness can you?
I do hope that YOU will never have to deal with mental illness yourself,- then see how easy it is to "pull up your socks!"
Maybe it would help you be more knowledgeable as well as have more compassion.
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Post by bitterbetty on Sept 5, 2015 17:50:11 GMT -5
Expectations can be SO powerful in our lives. When we learn to just take life as it comes, and be grateful for the blessings we do encounter, we've made great strides towards happiness. I like my friends and family so much more now that they don't fall short of my expectations (that of course they weren't even aware I expected them to meet). Yeah, pressure and perfectionism are buzz kills too. I am a recovering perfectionist myself. I think that a lot of what 'drives' a perfectionist to be such is a matter trying to 'right' their world. If they can make something perfect, they have in a sense made it 'right'. They want things to be 'right'/correct. While making things right is a good thing in and of itself, it can lead to being driven to be perfect in unhealthy ways. I mean, yeah, perfection and perfect moments have their merit and beauty. A perfect work of art, for instance. But the artist who creates that perfect work of art is sometimes not even satisfied with it. So, where does that leave them? Is it ever enough? The perfectionist often suffers with striving for something that continues to elude them...as a result it's almost as if they are just never quite happy! Never quite contented. Not having true peace. So, for me, it has often been a matter of asking when is good enough, good enough? While I definitely see and feel the merit of excellence-it is not without its pitfalls. Striving can create strife(in some cases). I reached a place as a musical artist where I just had to let go and let it flow...and I came to find out that some of the best music created is not necessarily a technically perfect rendition of a song, but just being able to RELEASE the passion and creativity. Perfectionism can sometimes stifle the creative process itself. If you let yourself go and let it flow, the music can reach greater heights, I guess you could say. When you take the pressure and expectations away, it opens up another avenue.
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Post by emy on Sept 5, 2015 18:02:47 GMT -5
part of conquering addiction is having the courage to face what you are(grow some guts) however not everyone can do that...I know because my father was an alcoholic and couldn't do it no matter how many times he tried... So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ? Why do you connect mental illness with addiction?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 18:20:30 GMT -5
I don't know about the blaming part but facing yourself(grow some guts) I agree with Having worked with mental health patients in the area of Forensic, I do agree that acknowledging there is a problem and a link between their mental illness and their incarcerations is a good first step. This goes for any addictions that rule your life. However when it comes to diseases such as bi polar it's a different matter. Schizophrenia has some medications that work pretty well to diminish the auditory and visual hallucinations the disease triggers but the side effects are pretty ugly especially for young males. This makes it harder. Once the link has been acknowledged and medications are taken even after they start to feel better, then we see some progress. However, in the case of bi-polar there is less success in the medications we currently have for the disease. It is a hard one to medicate likely because of the extremes in mood swings. It's hard to find the right one and then the right dosage to deal with extreme depression at one time and then extreme euphoria the next time. Even when the person acknowledges and accepts the diagnosis and links it to their problems it still doesn't mean they will be successfully medicated. So it's not as straight forward as virgo has made it sound. I not just having the guts to acknowledge you have a disease that causes problems for you, it's sometimes finding the right treatment. Bi Polar is by far the hardest one and a lot of people actually are bi polar. Some may only have a milder version of it making it easier to treat, but some don't get success even if they have acknowledged it and are trying to get help in the form of medications. For many years Lithium was the only option and it was a horrific drug to take due to the side effects. We now are seeing more drugs on the market, newer with less side effects, but they are still not all that great. Alcoholism is not just about getting the guts to quit either. I have spoken to people in AA groups that I have helped run through the halfway house I worked at and many of the people I worked with over the years said that they were hooked from their very first taste. They knew. So when workers don't use wine for the emblems because it could cause an alcoholic to use again, they are quite right. All it takes in some cases is one sip for an alcoholic. In the case of those who said it took one drink to know, it also appears that for some people that's all it takes to start them down that road. Compassion is needed in all cases imo. Having worked with mental health patients in the area of Forensic, I do agree that acknowledging there is a problem and a link between their mental illness and their incarcerations is a good first step. This goes for any addictions that rule your life. However when it comes to diseases such as bi polar it's a different matter. Schizophrenia has some medications that work pretty well to diminish the auditory and visual hallucinations the disease triggers but the side effects are pretty ugly especially for young males. This makes it harder. Once the link has been acknowledged and medications are taken even after they start to feel better, then we see some progress. However, in the case of bi-polar there is less success in the medications we currently have for the disease. It is a hard one to medicate likely because of the extremes in mood swings. It's hard to find the right one and then the right dosage to deal with extreme depression at one time and then extreme euphoria the next time. Even when the person acknowledges and accepts the diagnosis and links it to their problems it still doesn't mean they will be successfully medicated. So it's not as straight forward as virgo has made it sound. I not just having the guts to acknowledge you have a disease that causes problems for you, it's sometimes finding the right treatment. Bi Polar is by far the hardest one and a lot of people actually are bi polar. Some may only have a milder version of it making it easier to treat, but some don't get success even if they have acknowledged it and are trying to get help in the form of medications For many years Lithium was the only option and it was a horrific drug to take due to the side effects. We now are seeing more drugs on the market, newer with less side effects, but they are still not all that great. Alcoholism is not just about getting the guts to quit either. I have spoken to people in AA groups that I have helped run through the halfway house I worked at and many of the people I worked with over the years said that they were hooked from their very first taste. They knew. So when workers don't use wine for the emblems because it could cause an alcoholic to use again, they are quite right. All it takes in some cases is one sip for an alcoholic. In the case of those who said it took one drink to know, it also appears that for some people that's all it takes to start them down that road. Compassion is needed in all cases imo. Thank you, snow. You have a good understanding of mental diseases.
One of my sons has bi-polar. It is VERY hard to manage his medications!
I want to make a point about a person "acknowledging" the diagnosis, it has to do a whole lot more with finding a diagnosis! For years, from kindergarten throughout his early years as an adult, we searched, going to this medical facility to medical facility all over the country trying to find out a diagnosis & medication.
After much research on own we realized he has ADHD. Doctors, schools,counselors weren't yet aware of the problem, we had to teach THEM! Then we had to find a doctor who recognized the problem & prescribed medication. Had to travel half a state in order to get that.
There is also a comorbidity factor in many mental illness, "the simultaneous presence of two chronic diseases or conditions in a patient"
After much more searching he was found to have bi-polar.
Right now as I post,- my son has slept for two days & two nights. When he finally wakes up, he will be awake for the same amount of time or longer.
I get exceptionally angry when I hear someone who knows next to NOTHING about mental diseases spouting off that all he would need to do is "face his problem", "pull of his socks" and "get some guts!"
Can they tell me how a child in KINDERGARTEN AT FIVE YEARS OLD CAN DO THAT?
( PS. ) Thankfully, my son isn't alcoholic along with all his other problems, but thanks for your also posting about Alcoholism, that it "is not just about getting the guts to quit either. I have spoken to people in AA groups that I have helped run through the halfway house I worked at and many of the people I worked with over the years said that they were hooked from their very first taste.
That knocks right out of the water the idea that people gradually become alcoholics and that they could have quit on their own at any time. I see the attitude by Christians towards Alcoholism as being a problem in morality instead of being a disease.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 18:36:15 GMT -5
Expectations can be SO powerful in our lives. When we learn to just take life as it comes, and be grateful for the blessings we do encounter, we've made great strides towards happiness. I like my friends and family so much more now that they don't fall short of my expectations (that of course they weren't even aware I expected them to meet). Yeah, pressure and perfectionism are buzz kills too. I am a recovering perfectionist myself. I think that a lot of what 'drives' a perfectionist to be such is a matter trying to 'right' their world. If they can make something perfect, they have in a sense made it 'right'. They want things to be 'right'/correct. While making things right is a good thing in and of itself, it can lead to being driven to be perfect in unhealthy ways. I mean, yeah, perfection and perfect moments have their merit and beauty. A perfect work of art, for instance. But the artist who creates that perfect work of art is sometimes not even satisfied with it. So, where does that leave them? Is it ever enough? The perfectionist often suffers with striving for something that continues to elude them...as a result it's almost as if they are just never quite happy! Never quite contented. Not having true peace. So, for me, it has often been a matter of asking when is good enough, good enough? While I definitely see and feel the merit of excellence-it is not without its pitfalls. Striving can create strife(in some cases). I reached a place as a musical artist where I just had to let go and let it flow...and I came to find out that some of the best music created is not necessarily a technically perfect rendition of a song, but just being able to RELEASE the passion and creativity. Perfectionism can sometimes stifle the creative process itself. If you let yourself go and let it flow, the music can reach greater heights, I guess you could say. When you take the pressure and expectations away, it opens up another avenue.
Thanks, bitterbetty.
I am a recovering perfectionist myself. There wasn't any 12 step program that I could go to get over it, sadly!
Still at times find myself grinding my teeth and furrowing my brow! But you give me hope!
I have a small tile in a picture which says "The Time to be Happy is Now." It has kind of helped me not dwell in the past, or kept looking to the future, but be happy right NOW!
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Post by bitterbetty on Sept 5, 2015 18:46:04 GMT -5
So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ? Why do you connect mental illness with addiction? I don't know if I can answer this fully or with the best technical terms, but both are disorders of the BRAIN, and with most chemical addiction, it also becomes a disease of the body in that the body becomes physiologically dependent on a substance to feel 'normal'-plus when the substance is withdrawn, the person experiences very real physical signs/symptoms of withdrawl in addition to the psychological. Anything that crosses the blood brain barrier alters the brain. I personally believe that substance abuse very contributes to depression. I am VERY biased about this matter, BUT-I believe that many people including some health care providers simply do not understand WITHDRAWL-they don't plan well for it and don't treat it well either. I had taken care of many grown folks detoxing before I eventually took care of newborn babies withdrawing from opiates and other substances. It's hell. Some suffer to a greater extent than others, depending upon the length and severity of the substance abuse. These babies do not "make up" their symptoms. They cannot talk about how they are feeling, but they very much SHOW it and they can be very sick. In some cases, the mother who used during pregnancy did so because of taking pain medications for physical pain. They feel HORRIBLE for what it did to their babies. They do not need any attitudes of condemnation from caregivers. Yes, it's a very real problem. Yes, it's serious. But condemnation just doesn't seem to help. There is a way to deal with it compassionately. Some of these babies are withdrawing from Methadone, because the mother was on Methadone because she was trying to get free from heroin. And why she started to use heroin in the first place is a whole other story. Another area of withdrawl that folks need to more aware of is when people go off certain psychotropics such as antidepressants. There is something called SSRI and NSSRI withdrawl syndrome. It's very real, but can be overlooked. But we are seeing it more as more and more people are taking SSRI'S and NSSRI's. I am not an advocate of cold turkey anything, unless a person truly desires to do it that way. Withdrawing cold turkey in many cases simply drives a person to seek to use again to relieve the symptoms of withdrawl. Just my biased opinion.
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Post by bitterbetty on Sept 5, 2015 18:48:27 GMT -5
I am a recovering perfectionist myself. I think that a lot of what 'drives' a perfectionist to be such is a matter trying to 'right' their world. If they can make something perfect, they have in a sense made it 'right'. They want things to be 'right'/correct. While making things right is a good thing in and of itself, it can lead to being driven to be perfect in unhealthy ways. I mean, yeah, perfection and perfect moments have their merit and beauty. A perfect work of art, for instance. But the artist who creates that perfect work of art is sometimes not even satisfied with it. So, where does that leave them? Is it ever enough? The perfectionist often suffers with striving for something that continues to elude them...as a result it's almost as if they are just never quite happy! Never quite contented. Not having true peace. So, for me, it has often been a matter of asking when is good enough, good enough? While I definitely see and feel the merit of excellence-it is not without its pitfalls. Striving can create strife(in some cases). I reached a place as a musical artist where I just had to let go and let it flow...and I came to find out that some of the best music created is not necessarily a technically perfect rendition of a song, but just being able to RELEASE the passion and creativity. Perfectionism can sometimes stifle the creative process itself. If you let yourself go and let it flow, the music can reach greater heights, I guess you could say. When you take the pressure and expectations away, it opens up another avenue.
Thanks, bitterbetty.
I am a recovering perfectionist myself. There wasn't any 12 step program that I could go to get over it, sadly!
Still at times find myself grinding my teeth and furrowing my brow! But you give me hope!
I have a small tile in a picture which says "The Time to be Happy is Now." It has kind of helped me not dwell in the past, or kept looking to the future, but be happy right NOW!I can relate. I think being in the medical profession itself can be a contributing factor in driving people to perfectionism. There are a LOT of expectations, some of them not very realistic.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 18:59:10 GMT -5
unfortunately the only way to get someone on medication is for them to "pulling up their socks" face their condition and move forward getting on medication is self help... You are still at it aren't you, wally?
You Just can't give up that old idea that the person is responsible for their mental illness can you?
I do hope that YOU will never have to deal with mental illness yourself,- then see how easy it is to "pull up your socks!"
Maybe it would help you be more knowledgeable as well as have more compassion.
once a person is diagnosed with a disability they are very responsible for their condition I've seen it hundreds of times. I never said it was easy in fact if you actually read what I've posted I said few are able to succeed at it nevertheless that doesn't mean we can't ask them to try...
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2015 19:09:24 GMT -5
So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ? Why do you connect mental illness with addiction? Sometimes those dealing with the stress of a mental illness will try to self medicate. Many times teens don't get diagnosed correctly and so they start drinking or using drugs to make them feel better. Of course that just makes it worse.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 19:20:13 GMT -5
You are still at it aren't you, wally?
You Just can't give up that old idea that the person is responsible for their mental illness can you?
I do hope that YOU will never have to deal with mental illness yourself,- then see how easy it is to "pull up your socks!"
Maybe it would help you be more knowledgeable as well as have more compassion.
once a person is diagnosed with a disability they are very responsible for their condition I've seen it hundreds of times. I never said it was easy in fact if you actually read what I've posted I said few are able to succeed at it nevertheless that doesn't mean we can't ask them to try... "once a person is diagnosed with a disability they are very responsible for their condition," Even when they are a child, -like in kindergarten? Or someone that hears & sees people who aren't even there, -like Schizophrenia ?
Wally, you compassion truly bounds for the problems concerning mental illnesses & additions from which people suffer. If I believed in a GOD, I would say "may god have mercy on your soul!"
Since I don't believe in a GOD, and I am a Humanist, -I can only hope some day you will gain the knowledge of what mental illnesses & additions are really about and you will apololgize to the people to whom you have maligned
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 19:29:11 GMT -5
I agree.
Wally, Would tell someone that had a deformed or broken leg to just "grow some guts" & start walking straight? I doubt it, at least I would hope you wouldn't be that unkind. Why? Because you can see the difference in the person's leg?
Why is it so difficult to understand that just because you cannot see something that the causes "addictions" that "addictions" have been researched & found that the person has every much of a problem as the person with the deformed or broken leg? shame on you dmmichgood you being a nurse should know better, everyone with a disability has to face their condition and realize who they are before they can conquer it... Shame on you wally for you thinking that it is a matter of "conquering" the disability!
You put everything in a perspective of there being a war.
It is a matter of dealing with the problem and some are simply better at it that others.
Why must you condemn them as irresponsible and just needing to "grow some guts?"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 20:31:34 GMT -5
shame on you dmmichgood you being a nurse should know better, everyone with a disability has to face their condition and realize who they are before they can conquer it... Shame on you wally for you thinking that it is a matter of "conquering" the disability!
You put everything in a perspective of there being a war.
It is a matter of dealing with the problem and some are simply better at it that others.
Why must you condemn them as irresponsible and just needing to "grow some guts?"
I never condemned anyone.
it sorta is a war and casualties are high.
their simply better at it because they have faced their demon and conquered it I've had hundreds of cases pass by me and the ones that prosper(very few) did this its a known fact in the mental health community...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 20:39:43 GMT -5
once a person is diagnosed with a disability they are very responsible for their condition I've seen it hundreds of times. I never said it was easy in fact if you actually read what I've posted I said few are able to succeed at it nevertheless that doesn't mean we can't ask them to try... "once a person is diagnosed with a disability they are very responsible for their condition," Even when they are a child, -like in kindergarten? Or someone that hears & sees people who aren't even there, -like Schizophrenia ?
Wally, you compassion truly bounds for the problems concerning mental illnesses & additions from which people suffer. If I believed in a GOD, I would say "may god have mercy on your soul!"
Since I don't believe in a GOD, and I am a Humanist, -I can only hope some day you will gain the knowledge of what mental illnesses & additions are really about and you will apololgize to the people to whom you have maligned
then the parents are responsible for the child until they come of age once disagnosed
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 21:03:42 GMT -5
So @wally, does the same idea "face what you are" stand with people who have mental illness ? Why do you connect mental illness with addiction? emy, have you read any of the posts above ? The reason I suppose that I connect mental illness with addiction is because my late ex-husband had Bi-polar & was an alcoholic.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 21:09:49 GMT -5
Alcoholism can be compared to cancer, in that two individuals can be exposed to a carcinogen on a daily basis, and one of them will develop a cancer while the other one will not. There is a genetic propensity involved, and if there is a family history, one must be aware of their own potential problems. The problem with alcoholism is that it is looked upon by so many as a moral weakness with shame attached, and many families are reluctant to alert their offspring that they have a familial propensity (or even an ethnic tendency) for the disease, whereas with cancer, they are quick to advise their offspring to get regular screenings. Of course, if a person never ingests alcohol, he will not develop alcoholism. This is why it is necessary for parents who are aware of alcoholism in the family line to discuss it with their children. When the attitude is passed on that the alcoholic is somehow morally deficient rather than a victim of a genetic condition, drinking becomes viewed as a challenge. " I can handle it even though uncle Willie ruined his health and family, because I'm a stronger person!" Thank you blacksheep, for a great post.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 21:14:02 GMT -5
In more recent times the term Alcohol use disorder refers to a continuum that also includes alcoholism. Probably worth looking into for anyone engaging in an in depth discussion about the use and abuse of alcohol. The DSM–5 lists a single disorder, alcohol use disorder (AUD), with sub-classifications of mild, moderate, and severe. This addresses the associated behavior more directly than the physical and physiological effects. Thank you rational, I found this link : www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 5, 2015 21:19:32 GMT -5
I just want to say thank you to everyone who commented on this thread. So much rings true of my experience of living with an alcoholic.
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Sept 5, 2015 21:41:33 GMT -5
Maybe relieving pressure is why some folks use a substance. It drives them to drink or use another substance of their choice or whatever is available. But there are other things that would drive a person to drink or use drugs-maybe they feel like they are going crazy!I recently did some research on drug use/abuse in the Vietnam War...pot became a problem among the soldiers over there...maybe it was that generation, but, it was also readily available at affordable prices-(may have even grown wild there, I don't know). So, the military cracked down on pot and the soldiers then turned to heroin, which was also quite available there, affordable, and good quality. They were right there in the heart of the "Golden Triangle"-at that time the largest producer of opium in the world. (Now, it is the Golden Crescent). I am sure there was also alcohol and cigarettes too. But, my point is, they turned to these substances for various reasons. The horrors of war. Missing their loved ones. Being so far from home. Wondering if they were going to get killed at any time or become injured. Low morale. Interestingly enough many of the heroin addicts in Vietnam got clean after they returned from the war; taken out of the environment. Most every war had its "drugs of choice". WWII was alcohol, cigarettes, and amphetamines. Civil War was morphine or laudanum, tobacco and likely alcohol. If you look at the history of alcohol, it was used a lot for medicinal purposes-even to stop pre-term labor! People used what they had. Fast forward to today and prescription pain meds are becoming more commonly abused.
But another change in this generation, which I think is a positive change is that people are seeking the help of doctors more freely and without so much stigma. Some criticize the increased of usage of antidepressants and wonder why people can't just 'be strong' and 'tough it out'; learn to live with it. There has been quite a bit debate on this issue. Some folks feel that 'taking a pill' is somehow morally wrong and a cop out-with the mentality that people should just 'deal with their problems' and resolve them, etc. That works for some. But some people are FOOLED into thinking it's working when it's really not. They think they have dealt with their issues when really they have not. Not truly. I would much rather live with someone who takes an antidepressant than live with someone who chooses to 'be tough', but never really gets better and a depressed person is hard to live with. The depressed person is not just 'down'. They can be very grouchy!
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2015 21:58:27 GMT -5
Shame on you wally for you thinking that it is a matter of "conquering" the disability!
You put everything in a perspective of there being a war.
It is a matter of dealing with the problem and some are simply better at it that others.
Why must you condemn them as irresponsible and just needing to "grow some guts?"
I never condemned anyone.
it sorta is a war and casualties are high.
their simply better at it because they have faced their demon and conquered it I've had hundreds of cases pass by me and the ones that prosper(very few) did this its a known fact in the mental health community...
Wally, what are your credentials in the mental health community where that you have "hundreds of cases pass by you?"
I do hope it isn't counseling! I would hate to think that my son went to you for counseling & you told him to just "pull up his socks!"
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Sept 5, 2015 22:11:30 GMT -5
One of my sons has bi-polar. It is VERY hard to manage his medications!
I want to make a point about a person "acknowledging" the diagnosis, it has to do a whole lot more with finding a diagnosis! For years, from kindergarten throughout his early years as an adult, we searched, going to this medical facility to medical facility all over the country trying to find out a diagnosis & medication.
After much research on own we realized he has ADHD. Doctors, schools,counselors weren't yet aware of the problem, we had to teach THEM! Then we had to find a doctor who recognized the problem & prescribed medication. Had to travel half a state in order to get that.
There is also a comorbidity factor in many mental illness, "the simultaneous presence of two chronic diseases or conditions in a patient"
After much more searching he was found to have bi-polar.
Right now as I post,- my son has slept for two days & two nights. When he finally wakes up, he will be awake for the same amount of time or longer.
I get exceptionally angry when I hear someone who knows next to NOTHING about mental diseases spouting off that all he would need to do is "face his problem", "pull of his socks" and "get some guts!"
Can they tell me how a child in KINDERGARTEN AT FIVE YEARS OLD CAN DO THAT?
( PS. ) Thankfully, my son isn't alcoholic along with all his other problems, but thanks for your also posting about Alcoholism, that it
That knocks right out of the water the idea that people gradually become alcoholics and that they could have quit on their own at any time. I see the attitude by Christians towards Alcoholism as being a problem in morality instead of being a disease. You bring up a good point about children with ADHD. Some teachers are better than others at dealing with the issue. Sometimes they blame the parents for the behavior and insinuate they are 'bad parents' because of it. Little do they know, the thinking now is that ADHD is GENETIC. And if they think it is hard on them to deal with the behaviors, imagine how the ADHD kid feels. They feel misunderstood, for starters. "Why can't you just sit still??!. Why can't you just concentrate?! Why are you always 'spacing off'?!" I have one child with ADHD. Overall he's a great person. Tender hearted. His is perhaps not as severe as some and he graduated from college with a masters degree, etc. But his early education teachers often shook their heads in dismay. Most ADHD kids are actually very bright. He taught himself to play the guitar and goes all over the finger board with it...he usually doesn't play a song through all the way, though, and instead skips around mid-song to another song. This is likely a manifestation of his ADHD. His mind is always going...as a result he has struggled with insomnia.
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