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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 16:23:06 GMT -5
I don't think that's what I implied, nor what I said. Perhaps '...attempt to destroy the culture of others...' would have been more accurate than ' ...attempt to destroy the faith of another'. Consider what happened in Timor Leste. The bulk of the aid was from christian sources and when food and material supplies are tied to a religion people will often abandon their cultural beliefs. Rational, I understand now why people find it so difficult to discuss things with you. You aren't able to stick to a simple subject without bashing Christians; without being very snide. You could record the sins of Christians all day long, and probably record them accurately. No doubt in my mind, or in the mind of any rational person that the Church has committed grave sins. But I'm not going to get in a tit for tat fight with you. I'm not going to point out the atrocities of other groups, including the atrocities done in the name of atheism. I really don't think conversing with you is good for you, me or anyone else. No one wants to discuss with someone who is mean-spirited and snide, and who throws rocks in glass houses.
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Post by rational on Aug 3, 2015 17:00:23 GMT -5
Rational, I understand now why people find it so difficult to discuss things with you. You aren't able to stick to a simple subject without bashing Christians; without being very snide. I wasn't bashing christians. I put out the example of Timor Leste as a location where faith-based aid was counter productive to the local culture. It is the only recent one I could think of off the top of my head.I did use Timor Leste and the Muslims fleeing the Christians as counter examples. Should I have used Jews and Muslims? I don't actually believe that the church, in this case I am guessing you meant the RCC, committed the grave sins. The sins were committed by various people who happened to be part of the RCC and used the protection it provided. The same could be said about the German soldiers. They were not, as a group, evil but there were those within the group that did commit grave atrocities under the protection of others just like themselves while wrapped in the protective cloak of the Nazi government.Good.And you have the freedom to make that choice. I would be interested in acts done in the name of atheism. I have always found it difficult to get atheists to agree on anything except that one minor point regarding the existence of god.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 17:11:20 GMT -5
Jesus does not exist outside of the bible. All other documents are either secondary accounts, or forgeries. People who say they believe in Jesus but not in the bible are immediately open to suspicion IMO for accepting the idea of what Jesus DID as opposed to the hard words Jesus SAID. So Jesus wasn't around before the Bible was written by men, Bert ? You can prove all other documents are either secondary or forgeries ? What about the Dead Sea Scrolls are they forgeries ? Also which Bible does Jesus not exist outside of, the KJV only ?
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Post by howitis on Aug 3, 2015 17:55:42 GMT -5
I agree possibly Berts choice of words were not the best of stating Jesus doesn't exist outside the bible, as he can dwell within the hearts and lives of men, women, boys and girls all the world over, but this doesn't come about without the word of God or in other words the bible.
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Post by rational on Aug 3, 2015 18:17:29 GMT -5
I didn't say that faith-based charities are not performed by other religions. No, perhaps I missed what you meant: I thought pointing out the difference between Christian missionaries and others was implying that the other missionaries did not provide the same services. Gangs of christians attacking muslims could hardly be described as people preforming atrocities in the name of Christ. I believe the same is true for most religious fanatics.
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Post by snow on Aug 3, 2015 19:08:45 GMT -5
Jesus does not exist outside of the bible. All other documents are either secondary accounts, or forgeries. People who say they believe in Jesus but not in the bible are immediately open to suspicion IMO for accepting the idea of what Jesus DID as opposed to the hard words Jesus SAID. So Jesus wasn't around before the Bible was written by men, Bert ? You can prove all other documents are either secondary or forgeries ? What about the Dead Sea Scrolls are they forgeries ? Also which Bible does Jesus not exist outside of, the KJV only ? I think what Bert is accurately stating is that we don't read about Jesus existing anywhere but in the Bible. Many things about his birth, life and death are in the bible, but not recorded anywhere else. I believe that's what he means. Bert feel free to correct me if I'm misstating what you meant.
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Post by rational on Aug 3, 2015 19:55:50 GMT -5
Jesus does not exist outside of the bible. All other documents are either secondary accounts, or forgeries. I do not believe the accounts in the bible would qualify as primary sources and most probably not even as secondary sources. Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true. It seems like this is a faith based endeavor and trying to make more of it is what leads to errors.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 20:08:22 GMT -5
I accept the primacy of the sources of the NT. For no other reason than the fact that so much of what is in it is bypassed or ignored by mainstream churches, even way back then. I accept that Luke, for instance, was an eye witness to Acts. I accept that John wrote John, Paul wrote Epistles and Peter wrote Peter - all attesting to the same things.
Yes it is faith based. But it's not like our aboriginal rainbow snake creation myth. There's a grainy truth to things which I have mentioned here before. And there's an historic and current affair element to it as well (ie history of the Middle East, the story of the Jews and their return to Israel today)
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 23:04:08 GMT -5
Jesus does not exist outside of the bible. All other documents are either secondary accounts, or forgeries. I do not believe the accounts in the bible would qualify as primary sources and most probably not even as secondary sources. Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true. It seems like this is a faith based endeavor and trying to make more of it is what leads to errors. Thank you Rational, you have said what I was trying to ! "Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 23:06:54 GMT -5
I do not believe the accounts in the bible would qualify as primary sources and most probably not even as secondary sources. Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true. It seems like this is a faith based endeavor and trying to make more of it is what leads to errors. Thank you Rational, you have said what I was trying to ! "Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true." that's really riding the fence though...
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 23:07:50 GMT -5
Thank you Rational, you have said what I was trying to ! "Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true." that's really riding the fence though... How is it riding the fence Wally ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 23:11:47 GMT -5
that's really riding the fence though... How is it riding the fence Wally ? not believing the bible yet trying to say the basic message is true, its really incompatible from a faith based viewpoint...
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 23:14:41 GMT -5
How is it riding the fence Wally ? not believing the bible yet trying to say the basic message is true, its really incompatible from a faith based viewpoint... God/Jesus is not the Bible, the Bible was written how many years ago Wally ? How many times has it been translated ? Are you saying that if a person believes in God they must believe the Bible ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 23:18:57 GMT -5
not believing the bible yet trying to say the basic message is true, its really incompatible from a faith based viewpoint... God/Jesus is not the Bible, the Bible was written how many years ago Wally ? How many times has it been translated ? Are you saying that if a person believes in God they must believe the Bible ? the only way you came to know God was through the bible and then the relationship developed from there...
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 23:21:48 GMT -5
God/Jesus is not the Bible, the Bible was written how many years ago Wally ? How many times has it been translated ? Are you saying that if a person believes in God they must believe the Bible ? the only way you came to know God was through the bible and then the relationship developed from there... So you don't believe God/Holy Spirit can speak to a person directly ? Which translation of the Bible are you going to use to know God? Tyndale Bible, Matthew Bible...... KJV ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 23:27:15 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 23:30:23 GMT -5
the only way you came to know God was through the bible and then the relationship developed from there... So you don't believe God/Holy Spirit can speak to a person directly ? Which translation of the Bible are you going to use to know God? Tyndale Bible, Matthew Bible...... KJV ? you come from a judeo background just like most of us here and that came through reading of the bible unless of course you were/are an aboriginal and stuck to animism?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 23:31:59 GMT -5
So you don't believe God/Holy Spirit can speak to a person directly ? Which translation of the Bible are you going to use to know God? Tyndale Bible, Matthew Bible...... KJV ? you come from a judeo background just like most of us here and that came through reading of the bible unless of course you were/are an aboriginal and stuck to animism? That didn't answer the question Wally !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 23:39:48 GMT -5
you come from a judeo background just like most of us here and that came through reading of the bible unless of course you were/are an aboriginal and stuck to animism? That didn't answer the question Wally ! yes God/the Holy Spirit can speak directly to you but you would not even know their names if it hadn't been for the bible. its never been in your testimonies here that suddenly out of the clear blue sky God/Holy Spirit spoke to you and introduced themselves to you and told you the bible was false so I am not buying it...
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Post by rational on Aug 3, 2015 23:42:10 GMT -5
the only way you came to know God was through the bible and then the relationship developed from there... So you don't believe God/Holy Spirit can speak to a person directly ? Which translation of the Bible are you going to use to know God? Tyndale Bible, Matthew Bible...... KJV ? It appears that the attributes of god are determined by the needs of humans.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 3, 2015 23:48:41 GMT -5
That didn't answer the question Wally ! yes God/the Holy Spirit can speak directly to you but you would not even know their names if it hadn't been for the bible. its never been in your testimonies here that suddenly out of the clear blue sky God/Holy Spirit spoke to you and introduced themselves to you and told you the bible was false so I am not buying it... How did people know about God before the Bible? Subscribe to our Question of the Week: know God before Bible Question: "How did people know about God before the Bible?" Answer: Even though people did not have the Word of God, they were not without the ability to receive, understand and obey God before there was a Bible as we know it. In fact, there are many areas of the world today where Bibles are not available, yet people still can and do know about God. The issue is one of revelation—God’s revealing to man what He wants us to know and understand about Himself. While there has not always been a Bible, there have always been means for man to receive and understand God’s revelation. There are two categories of revelation, general and special. General revelation deals with that revelation from God universally to all mankind. The external aspect of general revelation are those things which God must be the cause or source of. Because these things exist, God must also exist in order to have put them into existence. Romans 1:20 tells us “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.” So all men and women everywhere can look at the creation and know that God exists. Psalm 19:1-4 further explains that the creation speaks clearly of God in a language that all understand. “There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard” (verse 3). The revelation from nature is clear. No one can excuse himself because of ignorance. There is no alibi for the atheist, and there is no excuse for the agnostic. Another aspect of general revelation—that which God has revealed to everyone—is in the existence of our conscience. This is internal. “What may be known of God is manifest in them” (Romans 1:19). People today, because of what they have on the inside, are conscious that God exists. These two aspects of general revelation are clearly seen in the countless stories of missionaries coming upon native tribes who have never seen a Bible or heard of Jesus. Yet, when the plan of salvation is presented to them, they know that God exists because they see evidence of Him in nature, and they know they need a Savior because their consciences convict them of their sin and their need of Him. In addition to the two parts of general revelation, there are also methods of special revelation God uses to show mankind about Himself and His will. Special revelation does not come to all people, but only to certain people at a certain time. Examples from Scripture of special revelation are the lot (Acts 1:21-26, also Proverbs 16:33); the Urim and Thummim (a special type of lot used by the High Priest-see Exodus 28:30, Numbers 27:21, Deuteronomy 33:8, 1 Samuel 28:6, and Ezra 2:63); dreams and visions (Genesis 20:3,6; Genesis 31:11-13, 24; Joel 2:28); Appearances of the Angel of the Lord (Genesis 16:7-14, Exodus 3:2, 2 Samuel 24:16, Zechariah 1:12) and the ministry of the prophets (2 Samuel 23:2, Zechariah 1:1). These references are not an exhaustive list of every occurrence, but should serve as good examples of this type of revelation. The Bible as we know it is also a form of special revelation, though it may not seem like it. It is in a category all by itself, however, because it renders the other forms of special revelation unnecessary for today. Even Peter, who along with John witnessed Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17; Luke 9), declared this special experience to be inferior to the “more sure word of prophecy, to which you would do well to take heed” (2 Peter 1:19), by which he meant the Word of God, the Bible. That is because the Bible is a written form of all the information God wants us to know about Him and His plan for our lives. In fact, the Bible contains all that is needed to be known about God in order to have a relationship with Him. So, before the Bible as we know it was available, God used many means to reveal Himself and His will to mankind. It is amazing to think that God did not use just one form, but many. It makes us thankful that God gave us His written Word and preserved it for us today in the Bible, so that we are not at the mercy of someone else, but can study it for ourselves! Of course, the clearest form of revelation God used was when He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take on human form and walk this earth among us, and die for our sins in our place on the cross. That alone spoke volumes! Recommended Resources: Inspiration and Authority of the Bible by Benjamin Warfield and Logos Bible Software.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 0:02:44 GMT -5
yes God/the Holy Spirit can speak directly to you but you would not even know their names if it hadn't been for the bible. its never been in your testimonies here that suddenly out of the clear blue sky God/Holy Spirit spoke to you and introduced themselves to you and told you the bible was false so I am not buying it... How did people know about God before the Bible? Subscribe to our Question of the Week: know God before Bible Question: "How did people know about God before the Bible?" Answer: Even though people did not have the Word of God, they were not without the ability to receive, understand and obey God before there was a Bible as we know it. In fact, there are many areas of the world today where Bibles are not available, yet people still can and do know about God. The issue is one of revelation—God’s revealing to man what He wants us to know and understand about Himself. While there has not always been a Bible, there have always been means for man to receive and understand God’s revelation. There are two categories of revelation, general and special. General revelation deals with that revelation from God universally to all mankind. The external aspect of general revelation are those things which God must be the cause or source of. Because these things exist, God must also exist in order to have put them into existence. Romans 1:20 tells us “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.” So all men and women everywhere can look at the creation and know that God exists. Psalm 19:1-4 further explains that the creation speaks clearly of God in a language that all understand. “There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard” (verse 3). The revelation from nature is clear. No one can excuse himself because of ignorance. There is no alibi for the atheist, and there is no excuse for the agnostic. Another aspect of general revelation—that which God has revealed to everyone—is in the existence of our conscience. This is internal. “What may be known of God is manifest in them” (Romans 1:19). People today, because of what they have on the inside, are conscious that God exists. These two aspects of general revelation are clearly seen in the countless stories of missionaries coming upon native tribes who have never seen a Bible or heard of Jesus. Yet, when the plan of salvation is presented to them, they know that God exists because they see evidence of Him in nature, and they know they need a Savior because their consciences convict them of their sin and their need of Him. In addition to the two parts of general revelation, there are also methods of special revelation God uses to show mankind about Himself and His will. Special revelation does not come to all people, but only to certain people at a certain time. Examples from Scripture of special revelation are the lot (Acts 1:21-26, also Proverbs 16:33); the Urim and Thummim (a special type of lot used by the High Priest-see Exodus 28:30, Numbers 27:21, Deuteronomy 33:8, 1 Samuel 28:6, and Ezra 2:63); dreams and visions (Genesis 20:3,6; Genesis 31:11-13, 24; Joel 2:28); Appearances of the Angel of the Lord (Genesis 16:7-14, Exodus 3:2, 2 Samuel 24:16, Zechariah 1:12) and the ministry of the prophets (2 Samuel 23:2, Zechariah 1:1). These references are not an exhaustive list of every occurrence, but should serve as good examples of this type of revelation. The Bible as we know it is also a form of special revelation, though it may not seem like it. It is in a category all by itself, however, because it renders the other forms of special revelation unnecessary for today. Even Peter, who along with John witnessed Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17; Luke 9), declared this special experience to be inferior to the “more sure word of prophecy, to which you would do well to take heed” (2 Peter 1:19), by which he meant the Word of God, the Bible. That is because the Bible is a written form of all the information God wants us to know about Him and His plan for our lives. In fact, the Bible contains all that is needed to be known about God in order to have a relationship with Him. So, before the Bible as we know it was available, God used many means to reveal Himself and His will to mankind. It is amazing to think that God did not use just one form, but many. It makes us thankful that God gave us His written Word and preserved it for us today in the Bible, so that we are not at the mercy of someone else, but can study it for ourselves! Of course, the clearest form of revelation God used was when He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take on human form and walk this earth among us, and die for our sins in our place on the cross. That alone spoke volumes! Recommended Resources: Inspiration and Authority of the Bible by Benjamin Warfield and Logos Bible Software. they had the OT for the most part...
they first were in direct contact then it changed with moses and the OT was born then it changed with Jesus and the NT was born then for our convenience the bible as we know it was put together in 300 something
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 4, 2015 0:09:36 GMT -5
"In fact, there are many areas of the world today where Bibles are not available, yet people still can and do know about God. The issue is one of revelation—God’s revealing to man what He wants us to know and understand about Himself. While there has not always been a Bible, there have always been means for man to receive and understand God’s revelation. There are two categories of revelation, general and special." The Bible as we know it ? Or the Bible with all the books Wally ? www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 0:18:59 GMT -5
"In fact, there are many areas of the world today where Bibles are not available, yet people still can and do know about God. The issue is one of revelation—God’s revealing to man what He wants us to know and understand about Himself. While there has not always been a Bible, there have always been means for man to receive and understand God’s revelation. There are two categories of revelation, general and special." The Bible as we know it ? Or the Bible with all the books Wally ? www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/we were talking about you not some native in the jungles of borneo...
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 4, 2015 0:23:05 GMT -5
I do not believe the accounts in the bible would qualify as primary sources and most probably not even as secondary sources. Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true. It seems like this is a faith based endeavor and trying to make more of it is what leads to errors. Thank you Rational, you have said what I was trying to ! "Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true." This is what I said Wally, (actually it is what Rational said & I agreed with it) what difference is there if we are talking about me personally or a native in Borneo ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 0:24:53 GMT -5
Thank you Rational, you have said what I was trying to ! "Perhaps what people do not believe is that the bible is inerrant but still hold the basic message as true." This is what I said Wally, (actually it is what Rational said & I agreed with it) what difference is there if we are talking about me personally or a native in Borneo ? because my response is that YOUR riding the fence with the two beliefs.....
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 4, 2015 0:29:36 GMT -5
This is what I said Wally, (actually it is what Rational said & I agreed with it) what difference is there if we are talking about me personally or a native in Borneo ? because my response is that YOUR riding the fence with the two beliefs..... And I have said that I no longer believe the Bible is inerrant, I have stated why I believe that. I have also said that God/Jesus is not the Bible, God can speak to people directly ! As to you saying I am riding the fence did you explain why you feel that ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 0:33:30 GMT -5
because my response is that YOUR riding the fence with the two beliefs..... As to you saying I am riding the fence did you explain why you feel that ? yep already did...
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