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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2015 16:06:55 GMT -5
There are many aspects of Jesus going to the Cross and also the Cross itself, most if all of which are correct. Jesus did die to self and we are committed to do the same. I think everything you say about dieing to self is correct, but it harmonizes with the idea of sacrifice; it doesn't stand against it. Jesus' death on the Cross represents the culmination of dieing to self, because Jesus could have taken himself out of the picture at any time. He had to just let it happen, like a lamb led to the slaughter, he opened not his mouth. He verified aloud with God, "if you are willing, let this Cup of suffering be taken away from me", that it was necessary to go this far. God did not crucify Jesus, but He did stand by and allow it to happen. He had the power to prevent Jesus death, but had He prevented it, mankind would not have been redeemed. In doing this, Jesus broke the power of the world and Satan that sent him to the Cross. One way I understand this is: do your absolute worst, you will not conquer the love of God. Once they had done their worst, the power of the love of God was intact. And this broke the gates of Hell. God did not forsake Jesus in terms of loving Him. He always loved Jesus as His Son, but He allowed His Son to die and to suffer. He couldn't look at it. I think the forsaking part has to be understood as a singularity; just while Jesus was suffering, and just in terms of allowing the suffering to happen. God never stopped loving Jesus. It wasn't a rejection and it wasn't cold-hearted. It was inevitable, something that had to be done. If we don't then die to self, and follow his example for the bit God gives to us, then we just haven't really understood His love. People do drift on "easy grace", the mentality that God saved me through Jesus so I don't have to do much. But no one who understands the love of God and the nature of his sacrifice would drift on God's grace. The sacrifice has to move us to follow Jesus, or we make his sacrifice, his gift, to be nothing. Why did it have to be done? I'll have to think about how to answer that, and it's time to go home. I'll try and catch up later. A simple answer is that we see sin and evil all around us, and how do we think it is to be overcome so that we can enter heaven. This is the answer God provides because we can't do it on our own.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 16:21:00 GMT -5
Why did it have to be done? I'll have to think about how to answer that, and it's time to go home. I'll try and catch up later. A simple answer is that we see sin and evil all around us, and how do we think it is to be overcome so that we can enter heaven. This is the answer God provides because we can't do it on our own. The only way we can overcome sin, is by letting Christ live in us and so we die to sin. Because he overcame sin and he can help us to do so. Bringing Gods holy spirit into our hearts to help clean and refresh us making us a clean dwelling place,a new man. A temple not built with men's hands. But built by our father in heaven through his son. Christ Jesus if we follow him!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 16:25:23 GMT -5
Thank you for all your answers, and taking the time to write them. I understand what you believe now. I won't carry on, because I don't want it to look like I'm arguing, and I'm not. I just love God with all my heart, and he will know how sincere I am in my beliefs. And if I'm wrong I hope he forgives me. But my heart tells me I'm right. So I'll have to stay with my own beliefs on this one. Thank you all again!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 16:49:53 GMT -5
you know the reason, He took the sin of all mankind on Himself and opened the way to God for mankind, that is what God could not look at there would have been no other way we would have ended with no hope of reconciliation with God Absolutely, Virgo. I like your reply and the fact that it wasn't a snippy one-liner designed to annoy people. More of these helpful posts please. yes thank you. i give as you say snippy one-liners when there is a direct challenge to what i know is true in my life, maybe i should ignore and most time do i suppose all of us have an achilles heal somewhere
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Post by emerald on Jul 6, 2015 17:11:06 GMT -5
Same as our church then. And like your church, we aren't taught about Valiant Thor. I'd love to believe in VT but I believe in a flat earth. Does your church teach about the angels of God in the Bible? such as Michael the archangel? and Gabriel?........ Valiant, Donn Thor are angels of God from the planet Venus. They were created by Jesus Christ and sent to assist mankind from man-made viruses, sicknesses, and Nuclear wars destruction during WW II... and prevent WW III from happening.Question: "What are the names of angels in the Bible?" Answer: The Bible describes angels as powerful spiritual beings whom God created to perform specific jobs both in heaven and on earth. And although the Bible often mentions a “host” of angels, it only names a few. Gabriel is the most well-known named angel to appear in Scripture. Each time He is mentioned, we see him act as a messenger to impart wisdom or a special announcement from God. In the book of Daniel, Gabriel appeared to the prophet Daniel in order to explain some visions God gave Daniel about the end times (Daniel 8:15–27; 9:20–27). While Daniel still had trouble wrapping his mind around the visions, Gabriel’s explanations, along with other biblical information about the end times, have allowed us to come to some conclusions about how the end times will play out. Gabriel also appears in the New Testament. He appears to Zacharias in the temple to herald the news that Zacharias’s wife, Elizabeth, would give birth to John. Gabriel also approaches Mary with the announcement of the birth of Christ. Later, Joseph receives guidance in a couple visits from Gabriel. Because of the monumental importance of these history-shaping announcements, it seems likely that Gabriel is one of God’s chief messengers. The second angel the Bible calls by name is Michael, who functions very differently from the angel Gabriel. Michael is an archangel, which means “chief angel”; this title indicates that Michael holds a high rank in heaven. Although it is not certain that Michael is the only archangel, the possibility exists, according to Jude 9, where Michael is referred to in definite terms as “the archangel Michael.” If other archangels exist, it is likely that Michael leads them. When Michael appears in the Bible, it is usually in a battle of some type. He wars with the fallen angels (those who sinned against God and became demons) and Satan on behalf of God and His people. Michael appears several times in the book of Daniel as a warrior (see Daniel 10:21 and 12:1). In one instance, the angel Gabriel describes Michael as fighting against the demonic “prince of the Persian kingdom,” enabling Gabriel to reach Daniel and explain the visions to him (Daniel 10:13). Michael is also seen in the Book of Revelation, when he battles the great dragon—Satan—during the end times (Revelation 12:7–9). The fact that Michael is leading an army of angels against Satan himself testifies to Michael’s high rank and power. If fallen angels are included in the list of angels who are named in the Bible, two more names should be mentioned: Lucifer/Satan and Apollyon/Abaddon. Lucifer rebelled against God and was thrown down from heaven along with the angels who followed him. Before his rebellion, Lucifer was a beautiful and powerful being; but he coveted equality with the Most High God and therefore became unholy and cursed (Isaiah 14:12–18; Luke 10:18). He is now known as Satan and is God’s chief enemy who seeks to deceive and destroy all of mankind (John 10:10). Apollyon/Abaddon is another fallen angel, mentioned in Revelation 9:11, who leads an end-times demonic army.
www.gotquestions.org/names-of-angels.htmlAre you for real Nathan? I know there are regional differences, but I'm pretty certain I didn't hear any of that nonsense at convention this year. Or any year. I'm sticking with my flat earth anyway.
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Post by snow on Jul 6, 2015 19:35:23 GMT -5
The only person or being preventing humans from getting to heaven is God. There is really no reason why there needed to be a blood sacrifice, one man dying to save everyone else if God hadn't wished it to be that way. So when you really think it over, it makes no sense at all that God needed to sacrifice his own son to appease himself. Especially since he is all powerful and all loving and could have done it so many ways that were not reflective of the pagan need for blood sacrifice of a pure being.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2015 20:55:01 GMT -5
My question is when are people today, who have a better understanding of why religions even exist; -when are those people going to understand that "god's" "sacrifice of his only begotten Son," as a "blood" sacrifice is only the remnants of primitive religions that existed at the time that people did not know why there were earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis!
They thought it was disobedience by them & so they needed to make a "blood" sacrifice (often the "blood" one of their own children) for a propitiation for appeasing a god!
How long are people going to remain in this dark age ideas ?
My, the arrogance of you! What makes you think you know better than the billions of people around the world who have a belief in God or any other gods? It is NOT "arrogance," emerald, - it is knowledge. I am not alone.
There are also billions of people around the world who realize that people who at one time in the history of humans believed in a 'god' or 'gods' did so to fill in the gaps where they don't understand the cause.
They believed & still do believe in such "gods" until knowledge of what really causes something is explained.
Illness was once thought to be caused by "evil spirits," -until Pasteur explained disease was caused by the multiplication of germs in the body.
I don't believe you or very many here on this board today would go to a "witch doctor" to expel the "evil spirits."
You and they, no doubt, would see a current medical doctor & use the antibiotics of the today.
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Post by Lee on Jul 6, 2015 21:05:49 GMT -5
If you have access to such knowledge such that you can proclaim there is no God, by definition YOU MUST BE GOD!!!!
Atheists are here to yank our chain. They should not be allowed on a board that is supposed to be concerned with a theistic dispute.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 6, 2015 21:33:34 GMT -5
I prefer atheists stay. I think we can all learn from each other. I appreciate the atheists on this board and in my daily life, etc. Alvin
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Post by Lee on Jul 6, 2015 21:46:02 GMT -5
They do mirror and illustrate the hypocrite in all of us, this is true!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 22:54:29 GMT -5
If you have access to such knowledge such that you can proclaim there is no God, by definition YOU MUST BE GOD!!!! Atheists are here to yank our chain. They should not be allowed on a board that is supposed to be concerned with a theistic dispute. Hi Lee, that's a bit like Jesus talking to the people and saying "if you don't believe in God, can you leave the field before I speak please" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Everyone should have the chance to hear God, and God will judge all our hearts to see whether we cared enough to live it out and speak it, and whether we've heard the right gospel and listened. We can't judge just do. And remain unprofitable servants, God loves all of us, including atheists. He just wanted us all back. Hardness isn't a good thing, love conquers all. And if you're faith is strong, God will give you the wisdom to overcome any that speaks against him. If our own hearts are right. My uncle was an atheist and the word of God turned his life around. Peter in haste, cut the ear off, Jesus through love put it back on. We through love should be wanting people to hear, not cut their hearing off by being too harsh. And God will judge is all
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 22:55:56 GMT -5
Does your group all believe in valiant thor? Is this in the bible is it in your teachings? no and no
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2015 23:10:48 GMT -5
They do mirror and illustrate the hypocrite in all of us, this is true! Lee, do you think that Antonie Philips van Leeuwenhoek commonly known as "the Father of Microbiology" and considered to be the first microbiologist was also hypocrite?
Was scientist Louis Pasteur who came up with the food preparing process known as pasteurization & also developed a vaccination for anthrax and rabies, a hypocrite as well?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2015 23:14:25 GMT -5
If you have access to such knowledge such that you can proclaim there is no God, by definition YOU MUST BE GOD!!!! Atheists are here to yank our chain. They should not be allowed on a board that is supposed to be concerned with a theistic dispute. I thought the thread was, I have a question?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 23:23:37 GMT -5
Why did it have to be done?It had to be done to provide a permanent solution for sin. The alternative and ultimate cure for sin is God's wrath. The Father was not an innocent bystander in Jesus going to the cross - it was His will.Jesus was an active participant in the will of God - he was willing to carry out His Father's will. And it was through the Holy Spirit (Heb 9) that Christ offered himself and the permanent sin offering would be made effective for those who repented (turned from sin) and put their trust in Jesus. Some people focus on the physical agony that Jesus went through and it was intense and awful. But it was just an insight into the intense spiritual agony that took place as Jesus fought the greatest spiritual battle that has ever has been fought - and ever will need to be fought. It was on the cross that Jesus defeated sin and death and Satan forever - the greatest victory that has ever been won and will ever need to be won. And to demonstrate that the victory had been won completely and totally he rose again and will reign eternally. This is the heart of the gospel - it is the gospel. The love that Jesus showed on the cross of Calvary is the greatest love that could be ever demonstrated by anyone, anywhere in history. As the Bible says "Greater love has no man known...." Hi Ross, how can there be 2 separate laying down of lives? John 15 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. Which you believe is Jesus laying down his life is the death on the wooden cross Yet our laying down our lives is death to self? Jesus said follow me! And his laying down his life was death to self. Not for us to follow him to a death on a wooden cross! The heart of Jesus' gospel is the way, the truth and the life, not his death on the cross. If you read the whole gospel it is his whole life! And the Jesus didn't save us by dying on that wooden cross, but by dying on his body the cross. He saved us by his life, by living the gospel in its entirety, by showing us the way, the truth and the life that we are required to live to bring us home to the father even if it means suffering death. And keep our faith and love and forgive until our last breath leaves our body. Showing the way to others. Just as Jesus did and also those who have truly followed him have done. I really wont say anymore, but I can't sit and let anyone say the heart of the gospel is Jesus' death on the cross, when it's his entire life and the way which is the truth!
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Post by snow on Jul 6, 2015 23:25:47 GMT -5
They do mirror and illustrate the hypocrite in all of us, this is true! hmm maybe Bert does have a point about reverse projection...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2015 23:28:07 GMT -5
Atheists are here to yank our chain. They should not be allowed on a board that is supposed to be concerned with a theistic dispute. My uncle was an atheist and the word of God turned his life around. Maryhig, did your uncle actually ever state that he was an atheist? I have heard many people say AFTER they had become Christians they had been "atheists" before.
In actuality they hadn't even given the whole idea any thought one way or the other! They really had no idea what atheism really is about. (As does Lee!)
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 23:45:07 GMT -5
My uncle was an atheist and the word of God turned his life around. Maryhig, did your uncle actually ever state that he was an atheist? I have heard many people say AFTER they had become Christians they had been "atheists" before.
In actuality they hadn't even given the whole idea any thought one way or the other! They really had no idea what atheism really is about. (As does Lee!) Yes he was, he was a catholic, then joined the army. He said the things he saw made his heart turn from believing in any God. And he felt that if God existed, there would be no suffering. He truly didn't believe in any God. Until he heard a man called Malcolm preach, and he then sat on his own and said from his heart, "I don't know who you are, what your are, or where you are. But if you are, I want to know" And he said, with a smile that he didn't know it would mean the end of his life! But God then opened his heart, eyes and ears. He then went and found Malcolm again and they talked and talked for hours and that was the beginning of his life in God!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 23:53:38 GMT -5
Does your group all believe in valiant thor? Is this in the bible is it in your teachings? no and no Sorry Virgo, I know you all don't believe in valiant thor, I'm talking about the group Nathan attends, like our meeting. I'm wondering if they know what he believes in and if they believe what he's saying, because it isn't in the bible, and I'm wondering if this is what he has been teaching others as he was a worker, because I can't see it somehow!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 7, 2015 0:06:54 GMT -5
Hi Ross, how can there be 2 separate laying down of lives? John 15 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. Which you believe is Jesus laying down his life is the death on the wooden cross Yet our laying down our lives is death to self? Jesus said follow me! And his laying down his life was death to self. Not for us to follow him to a death on a wooden cross! The heart of Jesus' gospel is the way, the truth and the life, not his death on the cross. If you read the whole gospel it is his whole life! And the Jesus didn't save us by dying on that wooden cross, but by dying on his body the cross. He saved us by his life, by living the gospel in its entirety, by showing us the way, the truth and the life that we are required to live to bring us home to the father even if it means suffering death. And keep our faith and love and forgive until our last breath leaves our body. Showing the way to others. Just as Jesus did and also those who have truly followed him have done. I really wont say anymore, but I can't sit and let anyone say the heart of the gospel is Jesus' death on the cross, when it's his entire life and the way which is the truth! I said.... It was on the cross that Jesus defeated sin and death and Satan forever - the greatest victory that has ever been won and will ever need to be won. And to demonstrate that the victory had been won completely and totally he rose again and will reign eternally. This is the heart of the gospel - it is the gospel. That is, the heart of the gospel is the death and resurrection of Jesus - this is principally why He came to earth.
We don't marvel at the cross as a piece of wood! - We marvel at what Jesus accomplished while he was on the cross. Maryhig - Jesus didn't come to show us how to live a perfect life - which is impossible for us to do. He didn't come primarily to show us a great example - which of course He did. He came primarily to open up the way for us to eternal life - to provide a solution for sin by His death and resurrection. Jesus' whole ministry pointed to Calvary and what He came to do. Isaiah 53 is a wonderful OT prophecy about what the promised Messiah would do for mankind. Ross he came to show us the way, the truth and the life, and he defeated Satan by overcoming hatred with love. What does this mean then? John 18 For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” He is clearly saying why he came into the world, and it wasn't to save us by crucifixion at the hands of Satan, but by bringing us the truth. John 3 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Not his death on the cross, but by through him, by following him! You said yourself Ross in one of your posts that we have to die the death, why? Why do we have to, if Jesus has done it all for us? Why if we are already saved, do we have to fight sin within our own hearts? If we only have to believe then God has forgiven every sin always that we do? Jesus said take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, no wooden cross here, what does this mean in your eyes? And how is it following him, by doing this? Endure means suffer! So what does enduring to the end mean then? There is also this 1 Timothy 1 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 7, 2015 2:40:17 GMT -5
Ross he came to show us the way, the truth and the life, and he defeated Satan by overcoming hatred with love. What does this mean then? John 18 For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” He is clearly saying why he came into the world, and it wasn't to save us by crucifixion at the hands of Satan, but by bringing us the truth. John 3 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Not his death on the cross, but by through him, by following him! You said yourself Ross in one of your posts that we have to die the death, why? Why do we have to, if Jesus has done it all for us? Why if we are already saved, do we have to fight sin within our own hearts? If we only have to believe then God has forgiven every sin always that we do? Jesus said take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, no wooden cross here, what does this mean in your eyes? And how is it following him, by doing this? Endure means suffer! So what does enduring to the end mean then? There is also this 1 Timothy 1 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Thanks Maryhig, John 18 Yes Jesus came into the world to testify to the truth. And what is truth? Pilate asked....an ironic question when truth was standing in front of Him. The truth was the solution for sin that Jesus provided - there can be no other truth. John 3 He came that through Him the world might be saved - through the victory that He won at Calvary on the cross (but we are not worshipping a piece of wood - we are believing in what He did when he was nailed to the cross) We cannot be righteous by simply following a man, even a perfect man. We can only be justified (made right with God) by repenting of our sin and believing and trusting in Him and what He has done for us at Calvary (which means that we must metaphorically follow Him - but not in a physical sense) - Romans 3: 21-26 Of course, dying daily is required although we do it imperfectly as I'm sure you'd agree - we do this as a demonstration of our faith and trust in the One who has saved us. If we don't try and do this then our faith isn't genuine. I have explained "enduring to the end" before. Of course, we need to continue to put our faith and trust in Jesus and follow Him until the end. But we have already been rescued from sin and death well before that! We live in the certain hope (not because of what we've done - but because of Christ's promise to us) that we will escape God's wrath on judgement day. We have already been justified and are now clothed in the righteousness of Christ. 1 Timothy 1 Paul tells of the grace of God and how he has been saved by Christ. And Christ would use Paul to demonstrate that the worst of sinners could be made whole - so that others might turn to Christ as the source of everlasting life. No we cannot be made righteous by simply following a man, your right, we are made righteous by Christ cleaning our hearts, through the spirit if we believe have faith and follow him. The works we do are to deny our own flesh and deny the sins of the world and Christ in our hearts will help us overcome sin. Many times they tried to lay their hands on Jesus, to kill him but it wasn't his time, then he said father I have glorified thee on the earth, I have finished the work thou gavest me to do. Glorifying God and bringing the truth was his work. And then Satan was able to lay his hands on him, once he had finished those works. Then he was betrayed and crucified and I don't put my whole faith on something that was a betrayal to Jesus in Satan's hands My faith rests on the life of Jesus saving me, in following him outwardly by living it as far as I'm willing to go following the way he showed me, and letting him live inwardly so he can help me overcome sin refreshing my heart with the holy spirit and cleaning me from within so i can live it outwardly. Thus denying the flesh and the world, becoming humble and a sacrifice acceptable to God through suffering until the end of my life. My faith does not rest on his death on a wooden cross saving me. Enduring to the end isn't just to keep our faith, it's to suffer and deny the flesh and the world. These are the works, and we can't do them without Christ in us, bringing us the holy spirit, and through faith Christ will give us the strength to succeed. I'm sorry Ross, but these are my beliefs, just as you have yours. And I can't see anything holy in the murder of innocence by Satan and God turning his wrath on a holy son and turning and forsaking him in the hour he most needed him. This isn't the God I believe in. He's a loving merciful father and I love him. And he will judge my heart.
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Post by emerald on Jul 7, 2015 6:42:20 GMT -5
My, the arrogance of you! What makes you think you know better than the billions of people around the world who have a belief in God or any other gods? It is NOT "arrogance," emerald, - it is knowledge. I am not alone.
There are also billions of people around the world who realize that people who at one time in the history of humans believed in a 'god' or 'gods' did so to fill in the gaps where they don't understand the cause.
They believed & still do believe in such "gods" until knowledge of what really causes something is explained.
Illness was once thought to be caused by "evil spirits," -until Pasteur explained disease was caused by the multiplication of germs in the body.
I don't believe you or very many here on this board today would go to a "witch doctor" to expel the "evil spirits."
You and they, no doubt, would see a current medical doctor & use the antibiotics of the today.
It's strange then, that there are Christian (other faiths available) doctors and scientists. Men and women much, much smarter than you or me, blessed with much more knowledge than either of us could ever hope to have, and yet they believe. You talk of evil spirits causing illnesses. Wasn't Luke a physician, yet he never spoke of evil spirits causing illnesses? And we really can't discount it anyway. We know that certain lifestyles cause illnesses in some and not others. Who's to say why one gets cancer and another doesn't? You don't have all the answers and neither do I, but I'm happy to throw my lot in with God. A supreme being makes much more sense than a Big Bang and a supposedly random aligning of atoms creating the diversity we have in the universe.
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2015 11:15:31 GMT -5
I said.... It was on the cross that Jesus defeated sin and death and Satan forever - the greatest victory that has ever been won and will ever need to be won. And to demonstrate that the victory had been won completely and totally he rose again and will reign eternally. This is the heart of the gospel - it is the gospel. That is, the heart of the gospel is the death and resurrection of Jesus - this is principally why He came to earth.
We don't marvel at the cross as a piece of wood! - We marvel at what Jesus accomplished while he was on the cross. Maryhig - Jesus didn't come to show us how to live a perfect life - which is impossible for us to do. He didn't come primarily to show us a great example - which of course He did. He came primarily to open up the way for us to eternal life - to provide a solution for sin by His death and resurrection. Jesus' whole ministry pointed to Calvary and what He came to do. Isaiah 53 is a wonderful OT prophecy about what the promised Messiah would do for mankind. Ross he came to show us the way, the truth and the life, and he defeated Satan by overcoming hatred with love. What does this mean then? John 18 For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” He is clearly saying why he came into the world, and it wasn't to save us by crucifixion at the hands of Satan, but by bringing us the truth. John 3 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Not his death on the cross, but by through him, by following him! You said yourself Ross in one of your posts that we have to die the death, why? Why do we have to, if Jesus has done it all for us? Why if we are already saved, do we have to fight sin within our own hearts? If we only have to believe then God has forgiven every sin always that we do? Jesus said take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, no wooden cross here, what does this mean in your eyes? And how is it following him, by doing this? Endure means suffer! So what does enduring to the end mean then? There is also this 1 Timothy 1 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. The problem with you believing you can be just like Jesus is that it contradicts the teaching, saved by grace that those who believe Jesus was God and part of a triune God believe. They will never agree with you because they have taken what the RCC decided was the truth and believe it. The ones that put so much emphasis on his dying on the cross are the ones that follow a more pagan belief that a blood sacrifice must be performed for there to be salvation. It's a rather brutal and barbaric mindset, but it is one that has been around for a long long time. Longer than Christianity. The early Christians definitely knew the myths of the dying rising godmen and just applied a literalistic aspect to their Christ. It is very pagan in origin and puts the emphasis on the dying and rising being the salvation. That is all based on early religions, before Christianity, that believed in the Sun of God and the winter solstice when the sun stops it's journey in descending light in the days in December and the 3 days where it doesn't start to ascend again. The rising Sun of God is when the days start getting longer. This was worshiped for centuries by many earlier religions and early Christians knew this. The difference is they say their Christ was a literal person who died on the cross for their sins, instead of an analogy to the dying and rising God/man.
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2015 11:19:15 GMT -5
Emerald, have you studied Quantum Physics? It's a very fascinating subject.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 7, 2015 13:41:17 GMT -5
It is NOT "arrogance," emerald, - it is knowledge. I am not alone.
There are also billions of people around the world who realize that people who at one time in the history of humans believed in a 'god' or 'gods' did so to fill in the gaps where they don't understand the cause.
They believed & still do believe in such "gods" until knowledge of what really causes something is explained.
Illness was once thought to be caused by "evil spirits," -until Pasteur explained disease was caused by the multiplication of germs in the body.
I don't believe you or very many here on this board today would go to a "witch doctor" to expel the "evil spirits."
You and they, no doubt, would see a current medical doctor & use the antibiotics of the today.
It's strange then, that there are Christian (other faiths available) doctors and scientists. Men and women much, much smarter than you or me, blessed with much more knowledge than either of us could ever hope to have, and yet they believe. You talk of evil spirits causing illnesses. Wasn't Luke a physician, yet he never spoke of evil spirits causing illnesses? And we really can't discount it anyway. We know that certain lifestyles cause illnesses in some and not others. Who's to say why one gets cancer and another doesn't? You don't have all the answers and neither do I, but I'm happy to throw my lot in with God. A supreme being makes much more sense than a Big Bang and a supposedly random aligning of atoms creating the diversity we have in the universe. You are missing the point.
When people don't know the causal factor of why a volcano erupts, they believed there was a "supernatural" being referred to as a "god" (Vulcan) within the volcano which they had to placate by sacrificing someone by throwing them into the volcano.
When someone discovered the physics behind what caused the volcano to erupt, they no longer needed to believe that it was due to a god.
As a result, that "god" which they no longer needed just quietly slipped away.
Whether you want to believe it or not, they often did sacrifice someone, often their first "begotten son," (does that sound familiar) by throwing them into the volcano. And of course it "worked " since volcanoes erupt only at intervals & then quiet down again!
Can you show the proof behind the "lifestyles" that cause certain illnesses in some and not others?
PS: Being a doctor or scientist doesn't necessarily "vaccinate" that person against believing in a 'supernatural being!'
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Post by emerald on Jul 7, 2015 14:50:47 GMT -5
You are missing the point.
When people don't know the causal factor of why a volcano erupts, they believed there was a "supernatural" being referred to as a "god" (Vulcan) within the volcano which they had to placate by sacrificing someone by throwing them into the volcano.
When someone discovered the physics behind what caused the volcano to erupt, they no longer needed to believe that it was due to a god.
As a result, that "god" which they no longer needed just quietly slipped away.
Whether you want to believe it or not, they often did sacrifice someone, often their first "begotten son," (does that sound familiar) by throwing them into the volcano. And of course it "worked " since volcanoes erupt only at intervals & then quiet down again!
Can you show the proof behind the "lifestyles" that cause certain illnesses in some and not others?
PS: Being a doctor or scientist doesn't necessarily "vaccinate" that person against believing in a 'supernatural being!' Your question: lifestyles that cause certain illnesses in some and not others? You are joking here, aren't you? I thought you were a nurse in a previous life? We'll start with the most obvious then. How about smoking and lung cancer? It's well documented that it is a major contributing factor in incidences of lung cancer. There are a good number of smokers that never develop the disease and the medical profession struggle to find an explanation. You can google for the stats as I don't have them to hand. Anyway, all this talk of placating gods still has its place in modern society. It's only months since a group of students were arrested in Malaysia for upsetting the god of one of their sacred mountains. The Malaysians can't be considered stupid, they're a well educated society but they still believe in their gods. They will of course understand the physics behind erupting volcanos, but physics doesn't always necessarily tell us when they'll explode. Many eminent scientists have stood looking into craters wondering when a volcano will explode, having calculated it should have erupted maybe centuries before and occasionally they're caught unawares (a timeframe of mere weeks can be considered unexpected) even with all their geological equipment. Like I say, men and women far smarter than you or me don't have all the answers, and far smarter people than us believe in a god or gods. I'd prefer to think you are being arrogant.
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2015 15:35:04 GMT -5
You are missing the point.
When people don't know the causal factor of why a volcano erupts, they believed there was a "supernatural" being referred to as a "god" (Vulcan) within the volcano which they had to placate by sacrificing someone by throwing them into the volcano.
When someone discovered the physics behind what caused the volcano to erupt, they no longer needed to believe that it was due to a god.
As a result, that "god" which they no longer needed just quietly slipped away.
Whether you want to believe it or not, they often did sacrifice someone, often their first "begotten son," (does that sound familiar) by throwing them into the volcano. And of course it "worked " since volcanoes erupt only at intervals & then quiet down again!
Can you show the proof behind the "lifestyles" that cause certain illnesses in some and not others?
PS: Being a doctor or scientist doesn't necessarily "vaccinate" that person against believing in a 'supernatural being!' Your question: lifestyles that cause certain illnesses in some and not others? You are joking here, aren't you? I thought you were a nurse in a previous life? We'll start with the most obvious then. How about smoking and lung cancer? It's well documented that it is a major contributing factor in incidences of lung cancer. There are a good number of smokers that never develop the disease and the medical profession struggle to find an explanation. You can google for the stats as I don't have them to hand. Anyway, all this talk of placating gods still has its place in modern society. It's only months since a group of students were arrested in Malaysia for upsetting the god of one of their sacred mountains. The Malaysians can't be considered stupid, they're a well educated society but they still believe in their gods. They will of course understand the physics behind erupting volcanos, but physics doesn't always necessarily tell us when they'll explode. Many eminent scientists have stood looking into craters wondering when a volcano will explode, having calculated it should have erupted maybe centuries before and occasionally they're caught unawares (a timeframe of mere weeks can be considered unexpected) even with all their geological equipment. Like I say, men and women far smarter than you or me don't have all the answers, and far smarter people than us believe in a god or gods. I'd prefer to think you are being arrogant. So do you believe that people's lifestyles bring on natural disasters as punishment by God? Do you, for example, agree with Pat Robertson that Hurricane Katrina in 2005 was caused by homosexuals and their acceptance of their lifestyles in New Orleans?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 7, 2015 18:36:12 GMT -5
You are missing the point.
When people don't know the causal factor of why a volcano erupts, they believed there was a "supernatural" being referred to as a "god" (Vulcan) within the volcano which they had to placate by sacrificing someone by throwing them into the volcano.
When someone discovered the physics behind what caused the volcano to erupt, they no longer needed to believe that it was due to a god.
As a result, that "god" which they no longer needed just quietly slipped away.
Whether you want to believe it or not, they often did sacrifice someone, often their first "begotten son," (does that sound familiar) by throwing them into the volcano. And of course it "worked " since volcanoes erupt only at intervals & then quiet down again!
Can you show the proof behind the "lifestyles" that cause certain illnesses in some and not others?
PS: Being a doctor or scientist doesn't necessarily "vaccinate" that person against believing in a 'supernatural being!' Your question: lifestyles that cause certain illnesses in some and not others? You are joking here, aren't you? I thought you were a nurse in a previous life? We'll start with the most obvious then. How about smoking and lung cancer? It's well documented that it is a major contributing factor in incidences of lung cancer. There are a good number of smokers that never develop the disease and the medical profession struggle to find an explanation. You can google for the stats as I don't have them to hand. Anyway, all this talk of placating gods still has its place in modern society. It's only months since a group of students were arrested in Malaysia for upsetting the god of one of their sacred mountains. The Malaysians can't be considered stupid, they're a well educated society but they still believe in their gods. They will of course understand the physics behind erupting volcanos, but physics doesn't always necessarily tell us when they'll explode. Many eminent scientists have stood looking into craters wondering when a volcano will explode, having calculated it should have erupted maybe centuries before and occasionally they're caught unawares (a timeframe of mere weeks can be considered unexpected) even with all their geological equipment. Like I say, men and women far smarter than you or me don't have all the answers, and far smarter people than us believe in a god or gods. I'd prefer to think you are being arrogant. Do you consider smoking a "lifestyle?" I was under the impression as a retired nurse, (not a nurse in a former life) that it was an addiction.
There are also a number of non-smokers who get lung cancer. Men working in mines etc.
I will address the second part of your post later.
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