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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 17:30:18 GMT -5
What I don't understand is how people think God is testing us. I think if there is a God and he made everything giving us life in flesh and blood bodies that it makes more sense that he wants us to enjoy them. To live the life he gave to the fullest. I don't think we did something bad to get us put in flesh and blood. It makes more sense that being able to experience the physical world would just be a different experience than the ethereal world which is likely what you would experience when you're dead? Making one bad and one good seems to negate the whole reason for living imo. The way I see it, life is to be experienced in all of it's various aspects. I don't think some devil was put here to tempt us. We are what we are and I think we should be celebrating our humanness because it allows us to experience the physical world. It makes no sense to me to say God made this beautiful physical existence only to have us deny it. God made human beings physical world is Good! and enjoyable but only Temporary and brief... God wants to offer a Far Better and GREATER spiritual world for us to enjoy for ETERNITY which has no death or an end to it.
Jesus said in John 10:10 The thief/devil cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Question, who were you and where were you before you entered physical existence?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 17:31:50 GMT -5
It's not to deny our existence, its to deny sin. Greed, hardness, spite, cruelty, hatred, selfishness, wickedness, backbiting, lust, fornication, etc. These are what we have to deny, these are the flesh. And we have to replace them with kindness, compassion, generosity, and most importantly, love! Love will cover all these things! They are all matters of the flesh . . . human/animal nature. But God gives us a higher understanding and intelligence than animals and beasts, and we have the mind to discern right and wrong! But some people act more like beasts than humans!
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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2015 17:32:54 GMT -5
The other day, someone wrote something in a post that shocked me a bit. And is been on my mind. They said that God took his wrath out on Jesus. I have never heard anything like this before. And I don't understand why God would take his wrath out on a completely innocent man, his holy son, when he was doing Gods will. Can someone who believes this, please explain what they mean by this and what it says in the scriptures? I've got no one else to ask, as I don't really know anyone around me who believes this. Thank you beforehand My God my God why hast though forsaken me if He hadn't He would have taken it out on man and then none of us would have been here I think this would be God took his wrath out on God. God had God crucified as a self-sacrifice and then God resurrected God and thus God did away with the consequence of sin (except for those not believing in God) which God allowed man to do. God's wrath was at or with God. Mea culpa.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 17:36:59 GMT -5
They are all matters of the flesh . . . human/animal nature. But God gives us a higher understanding and intelligence than animals and beasts, and we have the mind to discern right and wrong! But some people act more like beasts than humans! Actually, saying people act like beasts isn't being very fair to beasts. I think humans can be the most cruel of all animals and also the most loving of all animals. It's what you decide to choose, love or hate. And, most of the time it is a choice unless you have a brain dysfunction that does not allow you to feel empathy or other things that are required to be able to make choices.
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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2015 17:42:32 GMT -5
They are all matters of the flesh . . . human/animal nature. But God gives us a higher understanding and intelligence than animals and beasts, and we have the mind to discern right and wrong! But some people act more like beasts than humans! I do not know if all mankind has a higher understanding and intelligence than other animals and beasts. I do not know if all mankind can discern right from wrong. I think mankind in general is not able to always do right and never do wrong. Yes, some are more animalistic, more of the beast . . . lacking domestication and civilization, as some societies want such.
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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2015 17:44:45 GMT -5
But God gives us a higher understanding and intelligence than animals and beasts, and we have the mind to discern right and wrong! But some people act more like beasts than humans! Actually, saying people act like beasts isn't being very fair to beasts. I think humans can be the most cruel of all animals and also the most loving of all animals. It's what you decide to choose, love or hate. And, most of the time it is a choice unless you have a brain dysfunction that does not allow you to feel empathy or other things that are required to be able to make choices. I have similar thoughts when actions of adults are compared with actions of children. "That's childish!" Somewhat insulting, at times, of children.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 5, 2015 17:57:24 GMT -5
Thank you Virgo for answering, But I don't believe God did forsake him. He was always with Jesus. God sent an angel and strengthened Jesus before he went in the cross. I believe that that Jesus saying that, would only be in reference to the 22 psalm, and the Jews that murdered Jesus would have known that psalm. So they would have realised it was him it was about. Also another reason I know God didn't forsake Jesus is because just before Jesus died. He said father into your hands I commend my spirit, He was speaking to God because God was with him. So God didn't forsake Jesus. He would never leave him nor forsake him! Matt 27 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I can only go by what i read in the Bible Ive always understood that verse 46, meant that while the sin of humanity rested on Christ in those moments the burden of sin (if you like) the father could not watch.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 18:04:22 GMT -5
Hi Mary, Well, if you don't believe that God turned away from Jesus and as a result he died both a physical and spiritual death, then unfortunately you don't believe Jesus died for your sins, or that he took your place, or that he took your and everyone else's guilt upon himself, and took our punishment upon himself, so that you could be blameless and thereby worthy and saved. This unfortunately is the gospel story and the foundation of Christianity. It's rather weird. Turning the truth that you are guilty and Jesus is innocent, into you are innocent and Jesus is guilty. But then after the charade, God brushes that all aside and justifiably raises him up from the dead because the first part was all ridiculous anyway, although at least it put an end to animal sacrifices and scapegoats, Jesus being the last and ultimate one. Sorry to have to put it so bluntly. I think though that you are in the vanguard of those who will rewrite Christianity's precepts, and straighten this lie out. Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. we need to watch that what we think is in line with what God thinks, i like very much what you wrote ettu
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 18:30:54 GMT -5
But God gives us a higher understanding and intelligence than animals and beasts, and we have the mind to discern right and wrong! But some people act more like beasts than humans! I do not know if all mankind has a higher understanding and intelligence than other animals and beasts. I do not know if all mankind can discern right from wrong. I think mankind in general is not able to always do right and never do wrong. Yes, some are more animalistic, more of the beast . . . lacking domestication and civilization, as some societies want such. We will always sin, but with God it shouldn't be purposely be sinning. And when we sin then realise afterwards, then we should go straight to God and pray for forgiveness. And as long as we are forgiving others for their sins against us, I believe that God will have mercy on us. God knows that we sin, that's why we ask for forgiveness in the lords prayer daily! But if we purposely sin knowing God. Then we are held accountable for that sin. And when we purposely sin and do wickedness we are sinning toward God!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 18:34:25 GMT -5
Hello sts, My problem with this and similar analogies is that it just perpetuates, confuses the issue, and attempts to justify the obviously false accusation and blatant inversion of the truth. I'm reminded of one ex's web site, where an example like this would fit, that he calls The Lying Truth. As some here would say, at some point you can't continue to justify the unjustifiable. To me, the straight truth is, if you repent, God will forgive. That is, if God is as just as alleged. One wonders why the need for the elaborate hoax. Does anybody think anybody is fooled? Especially God? Sometimes I wonder why Christians are so hard hearted that they feel we all need to accept a God and a story like this one, on top of repentance, before they believe you can be legitimately forgiven/saved? It gets even more bizarre with the ritual drinking of his blood and eating him, but perhaps some will come to their senses if they think about that one.
Hi my old friend, I agree... some missed the lesson about literally eating Jesus flesh and drinking his blood.
Some of the Jews and his own disciples and the RCC missed the lesson of Jesus teaching about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6:48-66. We read from that time MANY of Jesus disciples went back, and walked no more with him because they were offended when he told them to eat his flesh and drink his blood. The Jews and the disciples who left Jesus NEVER heard his explanation about eating his flesh and drinking his blood...... They thought Jesus meant literally eating his own flesh and drinking his own blood which against the teaching of God in the Old Testament.
Jesus said I am the BREAD of life... Then Jesus said unto them, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."
Many of Jesus teaching and saying are: Hyperbole.... hyperbole (NOUN) exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. synonyms: exaggeration · overstatement · magnification · embroidery ·
In Luke chapter 22:1-20 Jesus explained to the 12 what he meant by eating his flesh and drinking his blood in detail. Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
The New Testament believers have kept this commandment throughout the churches through the centuries Paul wrote about it in I Cor. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.
Jesus said What do you believe that showing the lords death till he comes is?
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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2015 18:45:47 GMT -5
We will always sin, but with God it shouldn't be purposely be sinning. I am not sure what you mean by this. In general, I think all Christians know they are about to sin, but not all purpose with knowledge to do sin. By this, I mean someone could be in a situation and know a certain act is considered sin, yet does the act. And the other is when someone purposes to sin, as in "today I am (with intent and purpose) going to commit a certain sin."
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 18:50:48 GMT -5
We will always sin, but with God it shouldn't be purposely be sinning. I am not sure what you mean by this. In general, I think all Christians know they are about to sin, but not all purpose with knowledge to do sin. By this, I mean someone could be in a situation and know a certain act is considered sin, yet does the act. And the other is when someone purposes to sin, as in "today I am (with intent and purpose) going to commit a certain sin." I mean when you do something and then get a conscience afterwards and know it was wrong. For instance, you could say something without thinking then realise it's wrong, then I would ask God for forgivness.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 19:06:46 GMT -5
A person to live before others by showing our godly manners of lives, live for others, help people, Be lights and salt of the earth.... Don't hid your light under the bed but be a light or a beacon of hope in this dark world until Jesus returns. And this is the death I believe that Jesus came to go through! And we have to show this death starting with denying sin within ourselves. Then through Christ showing Gods nature and love and forgiveness through our lives. This is the death that Jesus came to go through, death to self We don't have to die on a cross naturally, nor did Jesus. It was murder at the hands of Satan. When Satan tested job, God told him he couldn't touch his life. Any life that is taken from anyone else but God is murder. Satan murdered Jesus through wicked hands and wicked hearts. And killed the prince of life! God said thou shalt not kill. And I believe God doesn't go back on that commandment! At the last supper Jesus said this is the blood of the new testament shed for you. This is the blood that was shed: He died to self will and his flesh was put to death and we have to take in his flesh and blood, which is his life that he's poured out for us, and take it deep into our hearts allowing Christ in, then we have to die to self with the help of Christ because he overcame the world, and once we are doing this we are showing his death till he comes!
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 5, 2015 19:11:29 GMT -5
(snip) Jesus says in John 18 why he came into the world and he didn't say it was to be crucified for sins To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. There is also Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 5, 2015 19:13:23 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=coR_MANuXKQLynda grew up in inner city , Washington, daughter of former gangster....... Lynda Randle sings song, "I'm Free", So long I had searched for life's meaning, Enslaved by the world and my greed; Then the door of the prison was opened by love, For the ransom was paid - I was free. Refrain I'm free from the fear of tomorrow, I'm free from the guilt of the past; For I've traded my shackles for a glorious song, I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last! I'm free from the guilt that I carried, From that dull empty life I'm set free; For when I met Jesus, He made me complete, He forgot how foolish I used to be. Refrain I'm free from the fear of tomorrow, I'm free from the guilt of the past; For I've traded my shackles for a glorious song, I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last! I'm free from the fear of tomorrow, I'm free from the guilt of the past; For I've traded my shackles for a glorious song, I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last! I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last! I profoundly disagree with many of the sentiments expressed on this thread. But this song somehow expresses so much of what is meaningful to me in life. Go figure? But this same artist sings the following: www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6A1j-cK5AAMorning sun, light of creation; Grassy fields, a velvet floor; Silver clouds, a shimmering curtain, He’s designed a perfect world. I’m amazed at His talents, stand in awe of One so great; Now my soul begins to sing out to the source from which it came. Bless the Lord who reigns in beauty; Bless the Lord who reigns with wisdom and with power. Bless the Lord who fills my life with so much love, He can make a perfect heart. Bless the Lord, O my soul; Bless the Lord, O my soul; And all that is within me bless His holy name. Bless the Lord, O my soul; Bless the Lord, O my soul; And all that is within me bless His holy name. Bless the Lord who reigns in beauty Bless the Lord who reigns with wisdom and with power. Bless the Lord who fills my life with so much love, He can make a perfect heart. Bless the Lord who reigns in beauty; Bless the Lord who reigns with wisdom and with power. Bless the Lord who fills my life with so much love, He can make a perfect heart, a perfect heart, a perfect heart. Bless the Lord! I get this.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 19:14:40 GMT -5
(snip) Jesus says in John 18 why he came into the world and he didn't say it was to be crucified for sins To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. There is also Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Giving his life was denying sin in the flesh. He gave up his fleshly life and served God completely, never sinning! Becoming a bright and shining light to those of us in darkness, guiding us back to God. Showing us how to live to please God. Creating a way for us to follow and his is the only way!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 19:19:03 GMT -5
We will always sin, but with God it shouldn't be purposely be sinning. I am not sure what you mean by this. In general, I think all Christians know they are about to sin, but not all purpose with knowledge to do sin. By this, I mean someone could be in a situation and know a certain act is considered sin, yet does the act. And the other is when someone purposes to sin, as in "today I am (with intent and purpose) going to commit a certain sin." if you know something to be a sin and do it anyways that is purposely doing the sin just the same if you said "today I am going commit a certain sin" one may be a little more brazen than the other but its still the same...
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 5, 2015 19:22:16 GMT -5
There is also Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Giving his life was denying sin in the flesh. He gave up his fleshly life and served God completely, never sinning! Becoming a bright and shining light to those of us in darkness, guiding us back to God. Showing us how to live to please God. Creating a way for us to follow and his is the only way! Ransom: a sum of money or other payment demanded or paid for the release of a prisoner 2. the holding or freeing of a prisoner in return for payment of ransom v. verb 1. obtain the release of (a prisoner) by making a payment demanded the lord was captured in war and had to be ransomed 2. hold (a prisoner) and demand payment for their release 3. release (a prisoner) after receiving payment So you are saying Jesus set us free by living a perfect life? That his example sets us free? The word ransom seems to imply the need of a "something" to set someone free.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 19:37:40 GMT -5
These two verses show how Jesus came to die, He came to lay down his life, which is death to self. If it was to be crucified then the second verse wouldn't make sense, because we have to lay down our lives also, that didn't mean to be crucified! Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 1 John 3 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. Sorry but it's 1.45am here and I'm tired, thank you for your responses it's been interesting. I will read all that i haven't read as soon as I can tomorrow
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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2015 21:00:43 GMT -5
I am not sure what you mean by this. In general, I think all Christians know they are about to sin, but not all purpose with knowledge to do sin. By this, I mean someone could be in a situation and know a certain act is considered sin, yet does the act. And the other is when someone purposes to sin, as in "today I am (with intent and purpose) going to commit a certain sin." if you know something to be a sin and do it anyways that is purposely doing the sin just the same if you said "today I am going commit a certain sin" one may be a little more brazen than the other but its still the same... Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
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Post by Admin on Jul 5, 2015 21:22:31 GMT -5
There seems quite a wide variety of beliefs among FW&Xs (including maryhig's church) about the cross and its meaning.
1. How often is the meaning of the cross taught in gospel meeting and at conventions around the world? 2. Is there a consistent teaching among F&W? 3. Is any of this a problem?
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Post by What Hat on Jul 5, 2015 21:49:40 GMT -5
There seems quite a wide variety of beliefs among FW&Xs (including maryhig's church) about the cross and its meaning. 1. How often is the meaning of the cross taught in gospel meeting and at conventions around the world? 2. Is there a consistent teaching among F&W? 3. Is any of this a problem? I think there is more of "taking up the Cross" than there is of being "saved by the Cross" in the preaching I remember. Both are true and important but many churches don't say much about taking up the Cross.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 5, 2015 22:09:11 GMT -5
My God my God why hast though forsaken me if He hadn't He would have taken it out on man and then none of us would have been here Thank you Virgo for answering, But I don't believe God did forsake him. He was always with Jesus. God sent an angel and strengthened Jesus before he went in the cross. I believe that that Jesus saying that, would only be in reference to the 22 psalm, and the Jews that murdered Jesus would have known that psalm. So they would have realised it was him it was about. Also another reason I know God didn't forsake Jesus is because just before Jesus died. He said father into your hands I commend my spirit, He was speaking to God because God was with him. So God didn't forsake Jesus. He would never leave him nor forsake him! I'm with you on your first post, but not so much on this one. The idea of Jesus incurring the wrath of God is a new one for me. I don't trust anything on 'gotquestions.org' so I'd have to see it somewhere else. As bubbles wrote above, I've always understood the verses of Jesus forsaken as God turning his face from Jesus. Not indefinitely but just as he bore the sins of the world and descended into Hell. This was something God could not watch. I understand propitiation as God not allowing anything unclean into heaven, not Sin and not Death. The propitiation was the price paid by God, the sacrifice of his only begotten Son, and is represented by the blood of the Lamb which cleanses us from all sin. Anyway, it's all metaphor and story for understanding God's love and the heaven he has in store for humanity. The fine points of the story don't matter all that much; just that God loves us and wants us to act on a daily basis in the belief of being redeemed through His love. He wants us to carry on acting in love in the face of much evidence that doing so is not a worthwhile endeavour. The rest of the story as I understand it, not many people agree with, but I'm fine with that. As a universalist I believe even atheists will get into heaven if they get the love part right, and those who don't may suffer for a time, but eventually the good, of which there is some in almost every person, will enter into God's eternal kingdom. (1 Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 23:41:04 GMT -5
There seems quite a wide variety of beliefs among FW&Xs (including maryhig's church) about the cross and its meaning. 1. How often is the meaning of the cross taught in gospel meeting and at conventions around the world? 2. Is there a consistent teaching among F&W? 3. Is any of this a problem? I think there is more of "taking up the Cross" than there is of being "saved by the Cross" in the preaching I remember. Both are true and important but many churches don't say much about taking up the Cross. the way of the cross leads home
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 0:09:20 GMT -5
I think there is more of "taking up the Cross" than there is of being "saved by the Cross" in the preaching I remember. Both are true and important but many churches don't say much about taking up the Cross. the way of the cross leads home The way of Jesus leads us home, and we have to follow him
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Post by maryhig on Jul 6, 2015 0:28:38 GMT -5
I don't know if I can read some of these posts, they're too upsetting, I love a loving God, not a God that would turn his face from his son when he's dying, or a God that would take out his wrath on innocence, you're all making him sound like Satan, it makes me cry not rejoice. Would you turn away from your children who were doing your will when they needed you most, what kind of father do you think we have? You make him sound evil! I feel sick! I've never heart such wicked things about God than the things I've heard here! The lord Jesus came full of love and gentleness, just really think in your hearts about him being crucified. Would you all stand there saying he's dying for me? I don't want him to die like that for me and my sins, they're my sins not his. I'm grateful for him coming and dying to self, and showing me how to put Satan to death in my life! And him giving me the strength to love so much in my heart that his love overcomes Satan's wickedness within. If I was at the cross when they were crucifying Jesus I would have begged them not to kill him. My sins are just that, my sins. And God will forgive us once we turn away from sin and repent. And turn and follow his ever loving every caring ever forgiving son. And we do the same, love, care and forgive. Also, I wouldn't dare say I'm going to heaven and I'm ok and I'm saved. I've got the rest of my life to live and I could go wrong at anytime! The only thing I'm saved from in this life is Satan, if I let Christ into my heart and let the Christ through the holy spirit of God save me by showing me my sins, and helping me wash them away in Gods water which is the word of God, cleansing my heart from sin, giving me the power to overcome with his love. And saving me from that abomination Satan! And I must do this till I die to be eternally saved! Really think about this, what would make you happier as a parent, a willing son going from you out and denying sin to be a guide to others and show them the way, Or A loving son, who is innocent going out and being torn to shreds whilst you forsake him and leave him in his hour of need, and you can't look at his sin? What? ?? What kind of father is that? We're supposed to be in the image of God, would you do that? I believe dying on the cross is his body the cross, if I thought like you all do, it would make me physically sick The God I love is a loving father, he is nothing like this. He strengthens me when I need help, he guides me, he lifts my heart when I'm down, he's showed me many wonderful things, he gives sun and rain the moon at night to guide and the stars also to the wicked as well as the just, he gives us love, and if we truly let him, in then our hearts are full of love and compassion for others.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2015 0:34:47 GMT -5
My question is when are people today, who have a better understanding of why religions even exist; -when are those people going to understand that "god's" "sacrifice of his only begotten Son," as a "blood" sacrifice is only the remnants of primitive religions that existed at the time that people did not know why there were earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis!
They thought it was disobedience by them & so they needed to make a "blood" sacrifice (often the "blood" one of their own children) for a propitiation for appeasing a god!
How long are people going to remain in this dark age ideas ?
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Post by emerald on Jul 6, 2015 0:53:33 GMT -5
My question is when are people today, who have a better understanding of why religions even exist; -when are those people going to understand that "god's" "sacrifice of his only begotten Son," as a "blood" sacrifice is only the remnants of primitive religions that existed at the time that people did not know why there were earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis!
They thought it was disobedience by them & so they needed to make a "blood" sacrifice (often the "blood" one of their own children) for a propitiation for appeasing a god!
How long are people going to remain in this dark age ideas ?
My, the arrogance of you! What makes you think you know better than the billions of people around the world who have a belief in God or any other gods?
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