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Post by maryhig on Jul 31, 2015 2:48:31 GMT -5
Jesus clearly says he's the son of God correcting them when they claim he said he's God (below) John 10 For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Also John 19 the Jewish leaders say it's because he called himself the son of God John 19: The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. Jesus never once declared himself as God, not once! He's never said I am God the son. Nothing! Gods spirit was with him, in full power because he never sinned! And then this (below) clearly to me shows God is the God of Jesus also, and Jesus is the son of God not God the son. Below when the Jewish leaders tried to say he makes himself equal with God by calling himself the son, Jesus corrected them saying he can't do anything without the father. John 5 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Thereafter the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth And further down in the same chapter, But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. At the tomb of Lazarus Jesus prayed to God and said (below) Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. If Jesus was Gods equal, he wouldn't have to say this. God is the God of Jesus also, they are not equal! And finally, ( for now )from the mouth of Jesus: I go to my father and your father, my God and your God! And what about the 100's of Bible verses that don't quite fit your conclusion And what about Jesus never saying he's God, no trinity, no three are one, no Jesus equalling himself to the holy spirit, it's all, son of God, my father, my God, I will send the comforter, not that he's equal, John 15 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Absolutely nothing about the three being one in the bible, just that they bear record in one in heaven, and then if I agree with them so I then become at one with them! One in heart. One in spirit, soul, mind and strength. Show me one verse, just one that mentions the trinity, or that Jesus actually says he's God the son? Because I've never seen it, and I believe the bible. So out of the hundreds of verses, show me one that says any of the above! I.e I am God the son!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 31, 2015 3:00:06 GMT -5
To MaryH. As you posted in John 5 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Thereafter the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
~~ The Jews wanted to KILL Jesus because He said he is the Son of God... Making himself equal with God by calling Him His Father. I showed you a few places in the Bible in the past, where Jesus said He is the Almighty God.
Jesus said in Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
Jesus said in Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son.
In the book of Revelation Jesus said he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning the end, the Lord God Almighty! There is your proof. ONLY the Son said he who WAS and IS... lived in a human body. The Father was NEVER lived in a human body on earth. No human being has seen God the Father, they ONLY heard His voice from heaven.
Nathan I can't understand the way you believe, you believe that they are all separate, but are all God? Some say they are all God, other trinity believers say they're all separate but are equal, some say that they are all one in heart and mind but are separate. The last one I understand, the others I don't because there is no trinity in the bible, no God the son, nothing. Anyway I shouldn't have gotten into this again. I think we are never going to agree on this.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 31, 2015 4:13:29 GMT -5
Nathan I can't understand the way you believe, you believe that they are all separate, but are all God? Yes, you're correct. Godhead is Father, Christ/Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is separate being but ALL Three Beings are ONE in agreement, One in Unity, and One in harmony with one another.
I John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are in agreement. Some say they are all God, other trinity believers say they're all separate but are equal, some say that they are all one in heart and mind but are separate. The last one I understand, the others I don't because there is no trinity in the bible, no God the son, nothing. Yes, there are many incorrect versions of the Trinity out there, so it can cause some confusion. Jesus is God as the Father is God, and also the Holy Spirit is God... John the apostle wrote it in John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him/Christ; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Anyway I shouldn't have gotten into this again. I think we are never going to agree on this. Good to discuss it, I learn NEW things from others on TMB about our Godhead all the time. Well I could go on, not I'm not. We don't want another 15 pages on the trinity do we
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2015 11:01:54 GMT -5
I believe the friends and some workers are start to wake up and understanding the true doctrine of the Trinity and the history of it. How can they be Anti-Trinity when the friends and workers worship, pray, singing hymns about God= The Father, Christ/the son, and Holy Spirit EVERY Sunday? Isn't that contradiction? Most 2x2 say they don't believe in the Trinity but they worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Every Sunday worship meeting around the world! Their words don't match with their actions. They don't know who are the Trinity is.
Something is WRONG with this picture, here. How can the workers and the friends are NOT teaching and believing in the Trinity... But they turn around worshipping, praying, give praises, and singing hymns to the Father, Christ/Son, and Holy Spirit Every Sunday morning worship meeting? Care to explain to us, please. Simply because: (a) they do not appear to know what they are doing; and (b) because the Hymn Book is updated every 30 years or so it takes a while to keep up with changing beliefs Very few workers believe that God is anything but the Father. Yet they worship Jesus (who they believe is not God) and fall at His feet every week....as they should. In short, they worship someone who is not God (according to their beliefs) and in direct contravention of God's commands in the Bible. The only conclusion that you can come to is that in the next Hymn Book update there may be a further removal of hymns which worship Jesus. It would take a major update but it would be essentially the same as the JW's then. They may get some push back from the many friends (including Nate) who believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit Oh, that they would learn who Jesus is. The early workers had it clear but it has sadly drifted. Yes, so someone decided to make Jesus 'God' too so they could worship him. But really having the father, son and HG all as Godhead, you really aren't any different in your beliefs than those who believe in more than one God. Which is the complaint by both Judaism and Islam about Christianity. To them it is a Pagan religion and in many ways it does resemble earlier pagan religions.
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2015 11:05:57 GMT -5
To MaryH. As you posted in John 5 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Thereafter the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
~~ The Jews wanted to KILL Jesus because He said he is the Son of God... Making himself equal with God by calling Him His Father. I showed you a few places in the Bible in the past, where Jesus said He is the Almighty God.
Jesus said in Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
Jesus said in Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son.
In the book of Revelation Jesus said he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning the end, the Lord God Almighty! There is your proof. ONLY the Son said he who WAS and IS... lived in a human body. The Father was NEVER lived in a human body on earth. No human being has seen God the Father, they ONLY heard His voice from heaven.
Nathan I can't understand the way you believe, you believe that they are all separate, but are all God? Some say they are all God, other trinity believers say they're all separate but are equal, some say that they are all one in heart and mind but are separate. The last one I understand, the others I don't because there is no trinity in the bible, no God the son, nothing. Anyway I shouldn't have gotten into this again. I think we are never going to agree on this. Knowing the history of religions before Christianity and some of the early Christian beliefs, you can see that the Trinity more resembles the beliefs of earlier Pagan religions. This was to such a degree that the early church fathers were asked by the Pagan world what the difference was if there were 3 in 1. So the Pagans of that day also saw the Trinity version of Christianity to be more Pagan than the Christians and the Jews that worshiped one God. It's an interesting history actually, bloody though. You need to remember that the early Christians that Paul brought in were Gentiles/Romans etc and these people were Pagan before they were Christians. They brought some of those beliefs into Christianity.
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2015 11:52:08 GMT -5
Godhead= Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit existed millions, billions years or longer before the Universe was formed, the pagans religion idea of the trinity gods came into existence ONLY 6000 yrs ago on the earth. So, which one do you think had their first idea of the trinity? The Godhead or the pagans?
Col. 2:9 For in him/Christ dwelleth ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily. Why because a book that was written 1300 years ago says so?
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2015 12:35:03 GMT -5
Why because a book that was written 1300 years ago says so? No, we can look in the Universe, galaxies, planets, animals, plants, and see God's handy works!
Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Okay, but how can you be sure it wasn't Zeus or Brahma or or or? There are many God's that are much older, have older sacred books etc than the Hebrew God.
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Post by rational on Jul 31, 2015 16:09:07 GMT -5
Why because a book that was written 1300 years ago says so? No, we can look in the Universe, galaxies, planets, animals, plants, and see God's handy works! Is there a single thing that indicates it is not simply energy/matter following natural laws?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 18:02:04 GMT -5
Is there a single thing that indicates it is not simply energy/matter following natural laws? Bingo, Rational! Only difference between your opinion about this and mine is, as I see it, you believe those laws just "Happened" and I believe they were ordered by the God I believe in and trust. Yes, I know, that is a very wide "gulf."
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2015 18:27:21 GMT -5
Okay, but how can you be sure it wasn't Zeus or Brahma or or or? There are many God's that are much older, have older sacred books etc than the Hebrew God. The Hebrews God/Elohim created ALL things, beings, homo Sapiens, animals, fish, birds, etc.. therefore The Eternal Elohim/God of the Hebrews are the Oldest than all of the gods, which men have come up with through the centuries.You do know that story originated in the Sumerian religion not with the Hebrew people? So it's more likely Anu is the original if you base it on that.
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 20:14:16 GMT -5
Maybe I missed it, but I've never see the following ever printed in the bible:
1. Godhead 2. Trinity 3. God the Son.
Can someone (not cut & paste) but just give me the Book, Chapter and verse where they found these terms.
Thank You
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 20:19:20 GMT -5
Maybe I missed it, but I've never see the following ever printed in the bible: 1. Godhead 2. Trinity 3. God the Son. Can someone (not cut & paste) but just give me the Book, Chapter and verse where they found these terms. Thank You the Godhead is mentioned here: act 17:29 rom 1:20 col 2:9
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 20:39:50 GMT -5
Maybe I missed it, but I've never see the following ever printed in the bible: 1. Godhead 2. Trinity 3. God the Son. Can someone (not cut & paste) but just give me the Book, Chapter and verse where they found these terms. Thank You the Godhead is mentioned here: act 17:29 rom 1:20 col 2:9
Thanks Wally. Nathan, the term "Trinity" nor "God the Son" are not in the verses you gave.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 31, 2015 20:47:23 GMT -5
the Godhead is mentioned here: act 17:29 rom 1:20 col 2:9
Thanks Wally. Nathan, the term "Trinity" nor "God the Son" are not in the verses you gave. And I love that the last reference refers to Christ. One of my favorite verses.
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 21:01:48 GMT -5
Thanks Wally. Nathan, the term "Trinity" nor "God the Son" are not in the verses you gave. JD.. Jesus claimed he is equal with God... and Heavenly Father is His Father.... So that make Jesus What? God the Son, and the Son of God or Both?
What is Trinity? One? two? or three beings?
The term Trinity and God the Son terminologies came from the 2nd century apostles. The Books in the New Testament were included only the 4 gospels, many of the epistles from the 1st century! apostles. The 2nd century apostles writings, belief and teaching were NOT included in the New Testament Bible. The terminologies "Trinity and God the Son" came from the 2nd century apostles, and that's why it wasn't used in the New Testament because the second part of the Bible which ended in 1st century apostles.
So the terms "Trinity" or "God the Son" are not in OUR bible. The bible that the F&W use and believe.
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Post by Mary on Jul 31, 2015 21:06:31 GMT -5
I don't see the word convention mentioned in the Bible either. Also worker is used more in reference to worker of iniquity. It talked about church in someone's home not the meeting as well.
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 21:11:32 GMT -5
So the term "Trinity" or "God the Son" are not in OUR bible. The bible that the F&W use and believe. As I explained to you... We will NOT find the word Trinity or God the Son in the Bible that we have because they didn't put the record/writing of the 2nd apostles century. However, You will find the terminologies "The Trinity and God the Son" in the 2nd century of the apostles writings.OK, thank you. This is most likely why the Workers do not teach this doctrine, or use this terminology. The do not use anything beyond the Bible we read today. It was just spoken on recently that nothing more is necessary.
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 21:13:17 GMT -5
I don't see the word convention mentioned in the Bible either. Also worker is used more in reference to worker of iniquity. It talked about church in someone's home not the meeting as well. Conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, Wed. night Bible, Union meetings, emblems are NOT found in the Bible... So, JD why are the friends and workers using it today?Those terms are not "doctrine"
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 21:16:41 GMT -5
To tell you the truth, the more I (think) I understand the Trinity doctrine, I really think the biggest difference between it and what the F&W believe has to do mainly with terminology only.
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 21:21:20 GMT -5
Those terms are not "doctrine" What do you meant NOT doctrine? It's many of the important CORE or the foundation of the 2x2 belief, JD.The terms aren't doctrine. Trintiy is doctrine. the teaching of a Godhead is doctrine. Convention is a place of gathering that we call convention. We can call it Church. We can call it many things, it really doesn't matter. Same with meeting. We can just as easily call it church. Make no difference. We can call it our Sunday morning meeting gathering, it doesn't matter.
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Post by matisse on Jul 31, 2015 23:00:45 GMT -5
I don't see the word convention mentioned in the Bible either. Also worker is used more in reference to worker of iniquity. It talked about church in someone's home not the meeting as well. Weren't many of these terms....Convention, Workers, Gospel Meetings, and others used by the Faith Mission that Wm. Irvine was part of before/as he set off on his own?
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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 2:16:46 GMT -5
Weren't many of these terms....Convention, Workers, Gospel Meetings, and others used by the Faith Mission that Wm. Irvine was part of before/as he set off on his own? And Faith Mission Founder John Govan and his wife in 1866 got a lot of their ideas, terminologies from Keswick convention, the Holiness the group before them, so it went.... And they got it from the groups before them.... It went back to many generations...
The idea wasn't original or started/founded by the Faith Mission/John Govan or William Irvine....
Yes. The 2x2's are an offshoot of a larger religious movement.
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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 12:31:29 GMT -5
Yes. The 2x2's are an offshoot of a larger religious movement. Yes, like I wrote many times in the past 25 yrs, that 40,000 plus denominations today are an offshoot of either the Vaudois Paul's converts in Rome 68 A.D. (Revelation chapters 11 and 12) the New Testament Church or the Roman Catholic Church in the 3rd century (Revelation chapters 17 and 18).I remember listening to the Catholic bashing when I was a 2x2, including the vitriolic assertions that the Roman Catholic Church is the "Wh0r3 of Babylon". It is not surprising, I suppose, for this to come from a Protestant-based sect that started in Ireland/N.Ireland and which held (still holds?) some of its Gospel Meetings in Orange Halls!
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2015 12:49:46 GMT -5
Yes, like I wrote many times in the past 25 yrs, that 40,000 plus denominations today are an offshoot of either the Vaudois Paul's converts in Rome 68 A.D. (Revelation chapters 11 and 12) the New Testament Church or the Roman Catholic Church in the 3rd century (Revelation chapters 17 and 18). I remember listening to the Catholic bashing when I was a 2x2, including the vitriolic assertions that the Roman Catholic Church is the "Wh0r3 of Babylon". It is not surprising, I suppose, for this to come from a Protestant-based sect that started in Ireland/N.Ireland and which held (still holds?) some of its Gospel Meetings in Orange Halls! What I find very ironic is that the Waldenses believed more along the lines of what the Catholic church believed not what the 2x2's believed.
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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 18:08:05 GMT -5
I remember listening to the Catholic bashing when I was a 2x2, including the vitriolic assertions that the Roman Catholic Church is the "Wh0r3 of Babylon". It is not surprising, I suppose, for this to come from a Protestant-based sect that started in Ireland/N.Ireland and which held (still holds?) some of its Gospel Meetings in Orange Halls! When Billy Graham began his ministry 40 years ago, he recognized Roman Catholicism as a false religion and Warned against it. Then, as Graham's crowds and popularity grew, Warnings about Roman Catholicism Ceased and those who made professions of faith in his crusades were Sent Back into the Roman Catholic Church. Later, Graham accepted Roman Catholics as counselors if they took his prescribed training course. Still later, Roman Catholic priests, bishops, and cardinals were included in the Graham Crusade committees, and finally, Graham called Pope John Paul II one of the World's great evangelists.Not surprising. Billy Graham wrote about being deeply moved and inspired by an experience he had at Keswick Convention. He is like a cousin to the 2x2's...though perhaps on the other side of a family feud. I remember listening to a lot of Billy Graham bashing too.
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2015 18:51:37 GMT -5
When Billy Graham began his ministry 40 years ago, he recognized Roman Catholicism as a false religion and Warned against it. Then, as Graham's crowds and popularity grew, Warnings about Roman Catholicism Ceased and those who made professions of faith in his crusades were Sent Back into the Roman Catholic Church. Later, Graham accepted Roman Catholics as counselors if they took his prescribed training course. Still later, Roman Catholic priests, bishops, and cardinals were included in the Graham Crusade committees, and finally, Graham called Pope John Paul II one of the World's great evangelists. Not surprising. Billy Graham wrote about being deeply moved and inspired by an experience he had at Keswick Convention. He is like a cousin to the 2x2's...though perhaps on the other side of a family feud. I remember listening to a lot of Billy Graham bashing too. I heard stories about Billy Graham professing at one time and then he 'gasp' left!! Then came the bashing. Found out that wasn't exactly the Truth.
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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 18:59:29 GMT -5
Not surprising. Billy Graham wrote about being deeply moved and inspired by an experience he had at Keswick Convention. He is like a cousin to the 2x2's...though perhaps on the other side of a family feud. I remember listening to a lot of Billy Graham bashing too. I heard stories about Billy Graham professing at one time and then he 'gasp' left!! Then came the bashing. Found out that wasn't exactly the Truth. I remember Graham being berated for the "Go to the Church of your choice" revival model. His was similar to the Faith Mission model that was interdenominational and devoted to encouraging a body Christians from many different denominations without extracting them from churches they belonged to. The 2x2's sprang from that model, but then they closed ranks, started a new sect (something the Faith Mission was committed not to do), and claimed exclusivity.
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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 19:39:09 GMT -5
What hat's conclusion is Very Good....Interestingly, in this book there is a picture of all the Faith Mission pilgrims as of 1892, standing in four rows like a worker picture, and at their feet is a banner that says "holiness to the Lord". The Holiness Movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are not sanctified at that point; you are not yet holy. Some denominations within the Holiness Movement speak of a second rebirth when you are sanctified, but I believe that with the friends you spend your life working toward being sanctified. This idea was quite common in Methodist circles of the late 19th century. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as a center of the Holiness Movement. Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but who was actually an Anglican, was the first to spread the Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later his book titled "Christian Perfection". "Christian Perfection" is the same idea as Holiness, that you are "born again" once but then become perfected in Christ over time. I have read Wesley's book, but his distinction between perfected Christians who don't sin, but do make mistakes, versus unperfected Christians who aren't quite there yet, is quite a fine line if you ask me. But the essential idea of spiritual progress throughout life is a compelling one, all the same. So, this is from wiki - It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers. Wesley was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality rooted in pietism. At one point in the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast off the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experience led Wesley to believe that the Moravians possessed an inner strength which he lacked.[8] The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influenced Wesley's theology of Methodism.[9] And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravian church, I'll quote wiki, "is reputed to have received the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensian Church, but the historicity of this is disputed." I personally doubt that, but most ideas in Christianity, like that of Holiness, have very deep roots. Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Paul the apostle-> Vaudois/Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's journal and b) learned more on the socio-historical background that informed the decision making of Irvine and the other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movements, as well as the Holiness doctrine. Before that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Now I see Irvine, Long and the other first workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement that was going on in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th century, one which culminated in schism because the main denominations would not accept the Holiness doctrine. The f&w were not the only ones going through this transformation. Here is a list of other Holiness denominations in the UK and America that began during or around that time. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make Irvine the first leader/ overseer/ head worker of the movement. Founder? I've just never liked that word in connection with the f&w movement. Nathan's selection of posts in the early part of this thread shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, IMO. Now, for Nathan's benefit, Holiness began with John Wesley's work and preaching on Christian Perfection, and Wesley's ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area by the Moravian church which is a movement that was influenced by the Waldensians/ Vaudois. To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909 ~~ Edward Cooney (1898 2x2 worker) said, "We did NOT start this Jesus Way... It was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men." ~~ Edward Cooney: There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. (Reprinted from Edward Cooney's Testimony reprinted in Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, by Patricia Roberts, Pages 43-45) ~~ Edward Cooney: Undoubtedly God called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning; and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people for God's name was William Irvine who, at the time of his being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is the Rock alone on which Jesus Christ would build his church, and that the gates of Hades should not prevail against it. (Letter by Edward Cooney to My dear Sister dated May, 1930 Reprinted from: Selected Letters, Hymns, and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867- 1960 by Patricia Roberts) ~~ Ed Cooney stated in his letter to Alice Flett: "I traveled for my father's business and preached inside and outside, as occasion offered, with some persecution. Whilst doing so, I met William Irvine through whom George Walker, Jack Carroll, William Carroll, Willie Gill and a number of the present leaders professed, including James Jardine. William Irvine and I were drawn together as brothers in Christ, each of us claiming liberty to follow Jesus as we received progressive light from God by the Spirit. I can understand why you would like it.
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