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Post by maryhig on Jul 15, 2015 4:48:31 GMT -5
... Also, If we belong to God and have received the holy spirit, how can we say that we don't turn away from God by sinning? Isn't there anybody here who believes that that's wrong? Surely I'm not the only one who believes it's wrong to wilfully sin and its against God and believe that we are turning from him by doing so? P I can't believe what I'm reading! I've never in my life been taught this! And my heart tells me this is wrong! Yes, we do turn from God when we sin, especially if we know we are sinning. But in His mercy, He willingly accepts us if we turn back and sincerely repent. Even if we commit the same sin multiple times (like Peter). However, that will eventually take us farther and farther from God if we do not realize the consequences of what we are doing. I don't think God approves of us doing presumptuous sin. He does allow time to learn, just as we allow our children to learn over time, what we expect. from the Bible: 2 Chronicles 30:9 For if ye turn again unto the Lord, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the Lord your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.Psalm 80 (3 times) Hi Emy I agree, only that I believe that if we wilfully sin when we know God there can be consequences for our actions. We can't say we can wilfully sin and God will be ok and forgive if we repent because Jesus has covered our sins. Sorry I think that's wrong! If I went against my mother and father wilfully, I was chastised. As I did with my children and as I believe God does with us. He may give us a chance, but I believe that if we carry on. He will let us go our own way. And we will suffer for it. Like the prodigal son. And when we repent, it should be truly repenting ( as you said sincerely, and that's the key word). If were sincere then were not doing that sin anymore, as Jesus said himself. Go sin no more. Once we truly know God, we have to be careful what we do, because we are an example to others. And if we are weak, and do wrong, then any people who are weaker in God will think it's ok to do it because we do. So I try and listen to my conscience. I do fall often. But I don't see it as I'm ok and that I can just say sorry, I have to mean it. Because God might not see it like that. I don't like taking God for granted, so i pray and say sorry and then I leave it with him to do what he sees right! But that is how I feel in my heart. Everyone has to do what's right in there's. Also, everyone keeps bringing up Peter, but none of us know what was in Peter's heart at that time. We don't know his thoughts, or how scared he was. When I read about Peter and when the cock crowed and he remembered what the lord had said it says he wept bitterly. I feel hurt for him. He had such a soft heart. Look what he said when he met Jesus. Luke 5 And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink. When Simon Peter sawit, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. What a heart, no wonder Jesus chose him. Not one of us can say we know Peter definitely wilfully sinned. Because we're not Peter or God. And only they would know that. God is his judge just as he is ours! I myself have been condemned, because of this conversation I had to look at myself. As I said before, I get cravings for sweet food, and its not good for me. But I carry on doing it. And I went to the cupboard to get chocolate and got a conscience. So I'm trying to fight myself now. Because I can't say to someone else what i believe and then not do it myself! So far I haven't had any sweets. My conscience won't let me! if I want one, I feel ashamed! But it's a good thing for me!
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Post by faune on Jul 18, 2015 17:34:28 GMT -5
The other day, someone wrote something in a post that shocked me a bit. And is been on my mind. They said that God took his wrath out on Jesus. I have never heard anything like this before. And I don't understand why God would take his wrath out on a completely innocent man, his holy son, when he was doing Gods will. Can someone who believes this, please explain what they mean by this and what it says in the scriptures? I've got no one else to ask, as I don't really know anyone around me who believes this. Thank you beforehand Maryhig ~ It's actually because Jesus took the sins of humanity upon himself that he cried out about being forsaken by God due to the feeling of separation from God it brought into his life. Billy Graham answered the same question for another below. billygraham.org/.../did-god-really-forsake-jesus.../
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Post by faune on Jul 18, 2015 18:17:41 GMT -5
I feel what really matters here is that you have put your trust in Jesus and His sacrifice on your behalf. This has nothing to do with putting your faith in the workers and their belief system, which changes the gospel message to reflect upon themselves and their own Perfect Way. I honestly feel that Jesus didn't come to establish some 2x2 ministry, but to point folks to what constitutes truth and compassion and how it can change our your life for the better. www.gfcto.com/articles/theological-issues/why-did-jesus-come-to-earth
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Post by maryhig on Jul 19, 2015 3:00:08 GMT -5
The other day, someone wrote something in a post that shocked me a bit. And is been on my mind. They said that God took his wrath out on Jesus. I have never heard anything like this before. And I don't understand why God would take his wrath out on a completely innocent man, his holy son, when he was doing Gods will. Can someone who believes this, please explain what they mean by this and what it says in the scriptures? I've got no one else to ask, as I don't really know anyone around me who believes this. Thank you beforehand Maryhig ~ It's actually because Jesus took the sins of humanity upon himself that he cried out about being forsaken by God due to the feeling of separation from God it brought into his life. Billy Graham answered the same question for another below. billygraham.org/.../did-god-really-forsake-jesus.../ I'm sorry Faune, i don't believe that, because then it's God himself who came in the form of a man named Jesus, who took all the sins upon himself, so that we're sin free before him. Then he let Satan crucify him in the hands of wicked men. And go against his own commandment. And he was reunited back to himself after he died because both Christ and God are God. And we're ok now, because we're saved now that we believe and have repented, and we don't have to do anything, we can still sin, live our lives as we like, and still be ok as long as we believe, because God in the form of Jesus in the flesh did it all, I think I've got that right? I'm not getting at you Faune. I just can't see anything that makes sense in that.
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Post by Mary on Jul 19, 2015 3:10:24 GMT -5
Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus. I think you say God when you mean the Father and that is where the confusion is. No one said the Father came to earth to die.
The Trinity is that Jesus is a part of God. The Holy Spirit is also a part of God. The Father is also a part of God. The 3 make up God the same as your family consists if several members as an example.
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Post by snow on Jul 19, 2015 12:48:20 GMT -5
Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus. I think you say God when you mean the Father and that is where the confusion is. No one said the Father came to earth to die. The Trinity is that Jesus is a part of God. The Holy Spirit is also a part of God. The Father is also a part of God. The 3 make up God the same as your family consists if several members as an example. They are all of one mind are they not? Complete unity of thought? So why would one aspect of the mind have to die to save it's creation from another aspect of the trinity? Forgiveness without bloodshed always has been an option. There was no reason why there needed to be bloodshed for salvation unless you bought into the pagan belief that had been around for centuries. God in all it's aspects is supposed to be the same entity and that entity is said to be eternal, all powerful, all loving, all knowing and all merciful. If those are truly the characteristics of this entity then he/she could have done whatever they wanted to save their creation, one of which was simply forgiving them without bloodshed. It's quite clear why the bloodshed was there. It was the mindset of people in that day and age and many ages before them.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 21, 2015 8:02:27 GMT -5
Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus. I think you say God when you mean the Father and that is where the confusion is. No one said the Father came to earth to die. The Trinity is that Jesus is a part of God. The Holy Spirit is also a part of God. The Father is also a part of God. The 3 make up God the same as your family consists if several members as an example. But if you read what Ross has just written, he says that God himself came into flesh. And your saying Jesus isn't God. It's so confusing, I understand Jesus being in the family of God like you said in another post, and all three are of the same mind but separate and I believe this also. Like they are separate but in one heart and mind, and when we are of the same heart and mind then we are at one with them also. But I don't get how people think Jesus is God and God came in the flesh was crucified for our sins, which is what Ross does seem to be saying.
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Post by Mary on Jul 21, 2015 8:21:07 GMT -5
I did not say Jesus wasn't God, I said Jesus wasn't the Father. God being 3 separate parts. Each a part of God.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 21, 2015 8:33:47 GMT -5
I did not say Jesus wasn't God, I said Jesus wasn't the Father. God being 3 separate parts. Each a part of God. So if Jesus isn't the father, how can he be God? I'm not being awkward. I just can't get my head around why people believe that. Jesus clearly says he can't do anything without the father. Also on the cross he said my God, my God, why did Jesus call God his God. If he was God also? And this John 20 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. He's clearly talking about his God being their God!
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Post by bubbles on Jul 21, 2015 16:13:14 GMT -5
We could go on for a long time Of course, the Father was with Jesus and supported Him. There can be no closer relationship. After all the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. So you need to ponder why there were 3 hours of darkness, why Jesus felt the Father had forsaken him, what happened spiritually on the cross. I try to follow and obey Christ as best I can because of what He has delivered me from and the victory He has already won. It is finished - as He said. I don't follow Christ because I feel He somehow needs my righteousness or I could be ever good enough to enter heaven because God in His word has told me that's a fruitless exercise. I love Him and I love others because He FIRST loved me and died to set me free. I believe the darkness covering the earth was because Jesus was dying. Spiritually, Jesus is the light, and they were putting the light out. And Satan was doing his works of darkness. It was the the time of Satan, and of wicked men in his hands. Just look how they mocked him! Torturing him saying "if your the son of God come down from the cross" taunting him whilst he was dying, and it wasn't one or two of them, but many of them. None of this was Gods works. Luke 22 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. I really don't believe it's my righteousness though Ross, I have never said that. I just have to do the works of God, and the bible clearly says I have to do this. Its Christ bringing the holy spirit that's saving me from sin. It's Christ's righteousness. I'm blessed that God has even looked at me! But as you said we could go on and on, but i love God and its wrong to go on. As you said you follow God as best as you can, and so do I. God looks at our hearts and judges them, and I truly believe that it is important that sin is leaving our hearts. But we both believing in God, shouldn't go so far. I'm wrong to do that! I have only said the above to answer your question. A couple of thoughts. The event of the death on the cross was an event that had been planned a long time before Christ came to earth. The agreement was between the father and son. Nothing can separate the love between them both. Heb. 13:20, "Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord." In this covenant God the Father and the Son made an agreement regarding the elect. This covenant was made before the universe was created, and it consisted of the Father promising to bring to the Son all whom the Father had given Him (John 6:39; 17:9, 24). The Son would become man (Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5), become for a while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:7), and be found under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5). The Son would die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2; 1 Pet. 2:24), and the Father would raise the Son from the Dead (Psalm 2).
When are bornagain we become nestled inside the love between them this is the reason Jesus says "I will never leave you nor forsake you." The deal that was made between them both resulted in a commitment by Christ to follow it through til the end. Luke 22:41-42 Then Jesus asks a second time. Matt26:39 Matt 26:42 This is why somewhere the father said to him at any moment you can change your mind and not go through with this. Because of his love for christ. Calvary and all that happened was a powerful spiritual event. Jesus was sinless born into a sinful environment where satan rules as prince of the power of the air. Eph2:2 Jesus blood was pure he was half human and half God making him the son of god. When the veil was split it was the power of his death (pure blood taking on the burden of the sin of the worrld ) that caused it. Matt 27:51 This is why he is called our burden bearer, our healer, our deliverer, our peace, etc Mark 14:36 1 peter 2:24 Resulting in his name being the name above all names becoming the king of kings lord of lords. Phil 2:9 His name became All powerful. Because of the power in his blood to overthrow satan his kingdom and his plans. Rev 12:2 Once it was finished he said "it is finished". John 19:30 This is why as his children his people we can have confidence in the finished work of Christ. There is nothing else to do because it has been done.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 21, 2015 16:27:11 GMT -5
I believe the darkness covering the earth was because Jesus was dying. Spiritually, Jesus is the light, and they were putting the light out. And Satan was doing his works of darkness. It was the the time of Satan, and of wicked men in his hands. Just look how they mocked him! Torturing him saying "if your the son of God come down from the cross" taunting him whilst he was dying, and it wasn't one or two of them, but many of them. None of this was Gods works. Luke 22 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. I really don't believe it's my righteousness though Ross, I have never said that. I just have to do the works of God, and the bible clearly says I have to do this. Its Christ bringing the holy spirit that's saving me from sin. It's Christ's righteousness. I'm blessed that God has even looked at me! But as you said we could go on and on, but i love God and its wrong to go on. As you said you follow God as best as you can, and so do I. God looks at our hearts and judges them, and I truly believe that it is important that sin is leaving our hearts. But we both believing in God, shouldn't go so far. I'm wrong to do that! I have only said the above to answer your question. A couple of thoughts. The event of the death on the cross was an event that had been planned a long time before Christ came to earth. The agreement was between the father and son. Nothing can separate the love between them both. When are bornagain we become nestled inside the love between them this is the reason Jesus says "I will never leave you nor forsake you." The deal that was made between them both resulted in a commitment by Christ to follow it through til the end. This is why somewhere the father said to him at any moment you can change your mind and not go through with this. Because of his love for christ. Calvary and all that happened was a powerful spiritual event. Jesus was sinless born into a sinful environment where satan rules as prince of the power of the air. Jesus blood was pure he was half human and half God making him the son of god. When the veil was split it was the power of his death (pure blood taking on the burden of the sin of the worrld ) that caused it.This is why he is called our burden bearer, our healer, our deliverer, our peace, etc Resulting in his name being the name above all names becoming the king of kings lord of lords. His name became All powerful. Because of the power in his blood to overthrow satan his kingdom and his plans. Once it was finished he said "it is finished". This is why as his children his people we can have confidence in the finished work of Christ. There is nothing else to do because it has been done. Sorry bubbles as you probably know, I don't agree with this. It just doesn't make sense to me. I can't see the crucifixion being good in any way. But i can see that this is not only your beliefs but many other people believe this also, and we all have to believe what's right in our own hearts
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Post by Mary on Jul 21, 2015 16:56:49 GMT -5
Just some quick thoughts where Jesus is also called God in the Bible. Hebrews 1 the Father talking calls Jesus God.
Thomas says to Jesus My Lord and My God.
Immanuel - God with us.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 21, 2015 19:03:37 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts. The event of the death on the cross was an event that had been planned a long time before Christ came to earth. The agreement was between the father and son. Nothing can separate the love between them both. When are bornagain we become nestled inside the love between them this is the reason Jesus says "I will never leave you nor forsake you." The deal that was made between them both resulted in a commitment by Christ to follow it through til the end. This is why somewhere the father said to him at any moment you can change your mind and not go through with this. Because of his love for christ. Calvary and all that happened was a powerful spiritual event. Jesus was sinless born into a sinful environment where satan rules as prince of the power of the air. Jesus blood was pure he was half human and half God making him the son of god. When the veil was split it was the power of his death (pure blood taking on the burden of the sin of the worrld ) that caused it.This is why he is called our burden bearer, our healer, our deliverer, our peace, etc Resulting in his name being the name above all names becoming the king of kings lord of lords. His name became All powerful. Because of the power in his blood to overthrow satan his kingdom and his plans. Once it was finished he said "it is finished". This is why as his children his people we can have confidence in the finished work of Christ. There is nothing else to do because it has been done. Sorry bubbles as you probably know, I don't agree with this. It just doesn't make sense to me. I can't see the crucifixion being good in any way. But i can see that this is not only your beliefs but many other people believe this also, and we all have to believe what's right in our own hearts No I didnt know. I dont read all the posts. Thats ok. I will find the verses. When i have time. Just in case it helps.
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Post by emy on Jul 21, 2015 20:37:46 GMT -5
Just some quick thoughts where Jesus is also called God in the Bible. Hebrews 1 the Father talking calls Jesus God. Thomas says to Jesus My Lord and My God. Immanuel - God with us. Hebrews also says he was created (on earth) "a little lower than the angels." If he was God in any form, how could he be lower than the angels?
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Post by bubbles on Jul 21, 2015 22:20:10 GMT -5
Emy Im guessing. Jesus was in a place of humilty, of his choosing. He humbled himself. Coming to earth. Angels are created spirit beings in heaven. Around the throne with the father commuting between both realms helping us and working for the father. Christ becoming human lowered himself by allowing his glory to remain in heaven. He couldnt have come here clothed in his glory. It wasnt part of the covenant made between the father and christ.
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Post by emy on Jul 21, 2015 22:53:20 GMT -5
Emy Im guessing. Jesus was in a place of humilty, of his choosing. He humbled himself. Coming to earth. Angels are created spirit beings in heaven. Around the throne with the father commuting between both realms helping us and working for the father. Christ becoming human lowered himself by allowing his glory to remain in heaven. He couldnt have come here clothed in his glory. It wasnt part of the covenant made between the father and christ. Here is what it says in Hebrews 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ... 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.That doesn't tell me that he left his glory in heaven.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 22, 2015 0:52:05 GMT -5
Just some quick thoughts where Jesus is also called God in the Bible. Hebrews 1 the Father talking calls Jesus God. Thomas says to Jesus My Lord and My God. Immanuel - God with us. If you read the next verse in Hebrews 1, it says Hebrew v9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows God is also called the God of Jesus, thus God is above Jesus. And God anointed him. Immanuel: God with us, yes but God was in the heart of Jesus, and Jesus laid down his life and lived only for God. So Gods spirit was strong within him. He showed Gods express image. Because he didn't sin and was full of love, this made him in the image of God, he showed God completely. So God was also with the people. Like here also in Hebrews Hebrews 1 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power And Thomas can see that he has the spirit of God in his heart.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 22, 2015 1:37:12 GMT -5
Emy Im guessing. Jesus was in a place of humilty, of his choosing. He humbled himself. Coming to earth. Angels are created spirit beings in heaven. Around the throne with the father commuting between both realms helping us and working for the father. Christ becoming human lowered himself by allowing his glory to remain in heaven. He couldnt have come here clothed in his glory. It wasnt part of the covenant made between the father and christ. Here is what it says in Hebrews 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ... 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.That doesn't tell me that he left his glory in heaven. Emy You know how I paraphrase stuff. These scriptures would have been where I was coming from. Phillp 2:5-8 Col 2:15 When Jesus was here on earth he was limited by time and space. He wasnt omipresent nor omniessent.
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Post by fred on Jul 22, 2015 3:45:34 GMT -5
Emy Im guessing. Jesus was in a place of humilty, of his choosing. He humbled himself. Coming to earth. Angels are created spirit beings in heaven. Around the throne with the father commuting between both realms helping us and working for the father. Christ becoming human lowered himself by allowing his glory to remain in heaven. He couldnt have come here clothed in his glory. It wasnt part of the covenant made between the father and christ. Here is what it says in Hebrews 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ... 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.That doesn't tell me that he left his glory in heaven. Hymns O&N #20
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Post by maryhig on Jul 22, 2015 6:15:30 GMT -5
Sorry bubbles as you probably know, I don't agree with this. It just doesn't make sense to me. I can't see the crucifixion being good in any way. But i can see that this is not only your beliefs but many other people believe this also, and we all have to believe what's right in our own hearts Maryhig You said: "You can't see the crucifixion being good in any way" God says: "I demonstrated my love for you in this .... Christ died for you" (Romans 5:8 in the first person) There are dozens of verses in the Bible to this effect. You seem to be caught up in the human side of the crucifixion which was horrible, murderous etc To understand why God demonstrated his love for us when Christ died for us you have to understand what happened spiritually to Jesus on the cross. It doesn't make any sense otherwise. As I said I believe that this is death to self and him bearing his cross, denying Satan completely putting Satan to death in his own flesh and not sinning, coming and bearing the sins of the world and denying the world. And its also the cross and denial that we have to bear to follow him. We are not saved unless we endure to the end. We are now saved from Satan by the resurrection of Christ in our hearts, helping us to overcome Satan, because Jesus overcame the world. And through his strength and by the grace of God, he through faith will bring Gods holy spirit to our heart and bring us the strength to deny our flesh and the world! That's my beliefs Ross, I don't agree with what you believe, the crucifixion was at Satan's hands, and God has nothing to do with Satan! Hebrews 2 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 22, 2015 9:36:24 GMT -5
snip That doesn't tell me that he left his glory in heaven. With respect to glory John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed (ESV) Hymn #8 "Was it for me, for me alone, the Savior left His glorious throne...; #9 "Jesus came from heaven revealing God the father here below" and as Fred said, Hymn #20: "from heaven's glory from His radiant throne above, came our redeemer..." Some of my favorite hymns.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 22, 2015 9:37:03 GMT -5
Here is what it says in Hebrews 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ... 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.That doesn't tell me that he left his glory in heaven. Hymns O&N #20 That one popped into my head the minute I read the question. Love that hymn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 12:14:55 GMT -5
For me, His documented Aramaic name by which He was known in His time and day, Yahu'shuah, meaning God-Savior tells it all. That is the name by which I know my gift of eternal life, beginning now, not after my passing from this awareness.
On an entirely different subject:
For all, I ask what was asked of me that pierced me to my core changing my life and understanding ever since:
1. Has everything told you by the workers about "the truth" been the truth?
2. Where do deception, deceit and lies originate/come from?
In answering these questions publicly with my mouth, I saw with my mind in an instant that which I had been refusing to acknowledge. Prior to that instant, I believed and insisted upon things exactly as some posting in this forum today, which is why I make no attempt to dispute with them. Until that moment, US Memorial Day, 1991 @ about 1:00 p.m. standing along side our travel trailer on private property adjacent to Hood Canal, Wash. St. U.S. I would have been as completely supportive of the 2&2 preacher system as anyone posting here, if not more so.
Thus, I understand each of you who are so convicted still, now. No longer agree with you, nonetheless certainly understand your belief and position. I was indeed excommunicated for about 5 years at that time, still fighting for the system, method if you will, in which I had been taught to believe for nearly a half century. Until that moment, all I could accept were that some things were not "right" within "it." Do I think anyone should just up and leave, until their God carries them elsewhere? Absolutely not!
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Post by emy on Jul 22, 2015 15:05:32 GMT -5
Because Jesus had glory with His Father in heaven and did indeed leave that glory in heaven does not mean he had none while on earth. How could he glorify his Father if he had no glory in himself?
Matt. 5:16 good works glorify God Luke 2:30-32 Jesus, just an infant, described as the glory of Israel Luke 13:17 Jesus did glorious things John 1:14 they saw his glory John 2:11 he showed his glory John 17:22 he gave his glory to those who believed 1 Thess. 2:12 1 Pet. 4:14 2 Cor 3:18 by beholding his glory (heavenly) even we are given glory through the Spirit 1 Pet. 1:17 God gave him glory
I know this is overkill, but there is much more. Search glor.. in Bible Gateway.
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Post by Mary on Jul 22, 2015 15:20:16 GMT -5
He was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of man.
He left the glory with the Father to come to earth. Was he still up there wherever up there is, while on earth or did he leave there to come to earth?
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 22, 2015 15:25:49 GMT -5
Because Jesus had glory with His Father in heaven and did indeed leave that glory in heaven does not mean he had none while on earth. How could he glorify his Father if he had no glory in himself? Matt. 5:16 good works glorify God Luke 2:30-32 Jesus, just an infant, described as the glory of Israel Luke 13:17 Jesus did glorious things John 1:14 they saw his glory John 2:11 he showed his glory John 17:22 he gave his glory to those who believed 1 Thess. 2:12 1 Pet. 4:14 2 Cor 3:18 by beholding his glory (heavenly) even we are given glory through the Spirit 1 Pet. 1:17 God gave him glory I know this is overkill, but there is much more. Search glor.. in Bible Gateway. I'm not sure that anyone is saying that Jesus had no glory on earth, just that he left his heavenly glory behind....glory perhaps hinted at on the mount of transfiguration. Moses asked to see God's glory (Ex 33:28) but he was told that he could only see God's goodness. I suspect that indicates we would be unable to survive unveiled heavenly glory. Perhaps someone said he had no glory on earth, I just didn't read the comment that 'he left his glory' behind as meaning he had no earthly glory. Maybe that was implied, I just didn't read it that way. I've been wrong before.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 22, 2015 17:05:43 GMT -5
Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus. I think you say God when you mean the Father and that is where the confusion is. No one said the Father came to earth to die. The Trinity is that Jesus is a part of God. The Holy Spirit is also a part of God. The Father is also a part of God. The 3 make up God the same as your family consists if several members as an example. But if you read what Ross has just written, he says that God himself came into flesh. And your saying Jesus isn't God. It's so confusing, I understand Jesus being in the family of God like you said in another post, and all three are of the same mind but separate and I believe this also. Like they are separate but in one heart and mind, and when we are of the same heart and mind then we are at one with them also. But I don't get how people think Jesus is God and God came in the flesh was crucified for our sins, which is what Ross does seem to be saying. Does this help? An ordinary human being like you or I just dont have the kind of power it took to overthrow the kingdom of darkness.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 22, 2015 17:15:53 GMT -5
Because Jesus had glory with His Father in heaven and did indeed leave that glory in heaven does not mean he had none while on earth. How could he glorify his Father if he had no glory in himself? Matt. 5:16 good works glorify God Luke 2:30-32 Jesus, just an infant, described as the glory of Israel Luke 13:17 Jesus did glorious things John 1:14 they saw his glory John 2:11 he showed his glory John 17:22 he gave his glory to those who believed 1 Thess. 2:12 1 Pet. 4:14 2 Cor 3:18 by beholding his glory (heavenly) even we are given glory through the Spirit 1 Pet. 1:17 God gave him glory I know this is overkill, but there is much more. Search glor.. in Bible Gateway. I'm not sure that anyone is saying that Jesus had no glory on earth, just that he left his heavenly glory behind....glory perhaps hinted at on the mount of transfiguration. Moses asked to see God's glory (Ex 33:28) but he was told that he could only see God's goodness. I suspect that indicates we would be unable to survive unveiled heavenly glory. Perhaps someone said he had no glory on earth, I just didn't read the comment that 'he left his glory' behind as meaning he had no earthly glory. Maybe that was implied, I just didn't read it that way. I've been wrong before. It may have been my paraphrasing that caused emy to think that. Of course Jesus had glory on earth there is no doubt about that. It was a measure. No one can see the face of the father. We couldnt even stand in his presence. Jesus produced miracles signs and wonders not as a baby but after the dove was seen above him when he was baptised by John the baptist. Then he began to minister in the power of god. That shows me that the glory was more manifest in his life than it was through the earlier yrs. Ive understood for some time that when he left earth or the moment of immense power when the veil was rent (it was very thick btw)the incredible power that caused that to happen and christ with returned to heaven to be seated at the right hand of the father was when he was clothed again with the glory he had prior to coming to earth. In Rev it speaks about the father then stating 'sit here at my right hand until I place all your enemys under your feet.'
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