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Post by bubbles on Jul 22, 2015 17:23:54 GMT -5
We could go further.John 11:40 "Jesus said did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of god." I dont think he was just prophesying his death and resurrection.
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Post by snow on Jul 22, 2015 17:31:40 GMT -5
As I said I believe that this is death to self and him bearing his cross, denying Satan completely putting Satan to death in his own flesh and not sinning, coming and bearing the sins of the world and denying the world. And its also the cross and denial that we have to bear to follow him. We are not saved unless we endure to the end. We are now saved from Satan by the resurrection of Christ in our hearts, helping us to overcome Satan, because Jesus overcame the world. And through his strength and by the grace of God, he through faith will bring Gods going spirit to our heart and bring us the strength to deny our flesh and the world! That's my beliefs Ross, I don't agree with what you believe, the crucifixion was at Satan's hands, and God has nothing to do with Satan! Hebrews 2 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Yes, those who murdered Jesus that day were controlled by Satan. But you are avoiding..... (a) it was the Father's will (b) Jesus wanted to do the Father's will and (c)it was a demonstration of God's love that Christ died that day To avoid that you kind of have to avoid a fair chunk of the Bible - and certainly the central theme of the Bible which is God's love for His people and how He has saved us. It appears that if it was people that were controlled by Satan that killed Jesus, but it was God's will that Jesus would be crucified, then Satan was doing God's will by controlling the people to do what God wanted?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 22, 2015 18:00:17 GMT -5
As I said I believe that this is death to self and him bearing his cross, denying Satan completely putting Satan to death in his own flesh and not sinning, coming and bearing the sins of the world and denying the world. And its also the cross and denial that we have to bear to follow him. We are not saved unless we endure to the end. We are now saved from Satan by the resurrection of Christ in our hearts, helping us to overcome Satan, because Jesus overcame the world. And through his strength and by the grace of God, he through faith will bring Gods going spirit to our heart and bring us the strength to deny our flesh and the world! That's my beliefs Ross, I don't agree with what you believe, the crucifixion was at Satan's hands, and God has nothing to do with Satan! Hebrews 2 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Yes, those who murdered Jesus that day were controlled by Satan. But you are avoiding..... (a) it was the Father's will (b) Jesus wanted to do the Father's will and (c)it was a demonstration of God's love that Christ died that day To avoid that you kind of have to avoid a fair chunk of the Bible - and certainly the central theme of the Bible which is God's love for His people and how He has saved us. I'm not avoiding that at all, it was the father's will, but it wasn't the father's will that he was crucified! It was the father's will that he endure to the end and take whatever Satan did to him and deny him, deny all his temptations. And Satan threw everything at him to try and make him sin. Abuse, beatings, mockery, temptation, hardness, hatred, wickedness everything. And Jesus never slipped, even showing love and mercy through his death on the cross! Which God foreknew would happen and what Satan would do to Jesus, and he prophesied it in the old testament through the prophets. And Jesus was willing to go through it, because he loves us and wants us to turn back to our father. So he came and brought the way, the truth and the life. Reconciling is to God. It says in the bible that by his death we are reconciled but my his life we are saved. This is by following him, denying ourselves, taking to our crosses. Then by the grace of God Christ will be resurrected in our hearts, and help is through the holy spirit to overcome Satan, because he had overcome him so Christ in the heart can help us overcome Satan. And it is a demonstration of God's love that we even receive the holy spirit, because we are not worthy. But through his love for us he has mercy on us and Christ comes full of love to help us cast or our own devils. We are in darkness without him, without Christ and Gods holy spirit in the heart we are dead to God! Living in our sins. Until we receive Christ into our hearts, which is like receiving the first light in the morning. When you go from darkness and you start to see light and realise that there is another world, not just the world of darkness we are in before we know God. Then with progressive revelation the light brightens and the vision becomes clearer until midday, when the suns at its highest and you see everything clearly. Like in God, when the spirit is strong in your heart much will be revealed to you. The stronger your faith and love for God is, the more you deny the world and the stronger you become in God.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 19:02:00 GMT -5
Maryhig, please help me understand a basic fact here regarding what you believe?
Are you asserting it was NOT the Father's will for the Son to die in the manner He did? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Thank you.
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Post by emy on Jul 22, 2015 20:22:08 GMT -5
He was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of man. He left the glory with the Father to come to earth. Was he still up there wherever up there is, while on earth or did he leave there to come to earth? Are you saying he wasn't man? Do you have an interpretation for "for the suffering of man" that would discount Jesus also being a man with temptations like man has? No, he was here on earth but with the glory the Father gave him. Did you read the references?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 0:27:52 GMT -5
Maryhig, please help me understand a basic fact here regarding what you believe?
Are you asserting it was NOT the Father's will for the Son to die in the manner He did? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Thank you. I'm afraid I can't answer just yes or no, it's not that easy! I believe it was the father's will for Jesus to come and show us the truth, because before him from Adam the people were going wrong and being many times being guided wrong. So he came and lived the truth. And he wants us to follow him and now he's shown us the way we have no excuse, he's shows us the way, the truth and the life and we are required (if willing) to follow him. He said he came into the world to bring the truth, he says this himself, but for some reason it's brushed over! John 18 To this end was I born, and for this cause came i into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. He is saying why he came into the world, yet I never see this mentioned here! Only the crucifixion! Even Jesus said in John 7 as 8 that it's wrong to kill him. But that's just ignored too! So Dennis, no, i don't believe it was the dying on the cross that saves us from sin. But it was the father's will that Jesus endured to the end, including enduring the cross to overcome Satan. And Satan had no hold over him because he was sinless. So he now can save us from Satan if we have faith if we take up our crosses and follow him. He even says that those who do not take up their cross, are not worthy of him. He that finds his life shall lose it, and he that loses his life for my sake, shall find it. This isn't natural death, this is death to self, so if were dead to the world, were alive in God. And we can only do with the help of God and with Christ in our hearts. Because we can't overcome Satan alone. Our flesh is weak. Now my question not only to you, but to all those who think were already saved and going to heaven. If were already saved and the price is already paid, why did Jesus ask us to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him, and endure until the end of our lives to be saved, what does this mean? Why do we have to do this if were already saved, and why did anyone who followed him in the past have to do it too? Because if it's all done for us already and we just have to believe, then surely it isn't necessary for us to do this. So why do we have to do it?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 2:37:31 GMT -5
Now my question not only to you, but to all those who think were already saved and going to heaven. If were already saved and the price is already paid, why did Jesus ask us to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him, and endure until the end of our lives to be saved, what does this mean? Why do we have to do this if were already saved, and why did anyone who followed him in the past have to do it too? Because if it's all done for us already and we just have to believe, then surely it isn't necessary for us to do this. So why do we have to do it? I think we have already answered this one We do it because we love Him with all our hearts. We do it because He has graciously adopted us into His family. We do it because we want to live in His Kingdom forever. We do it because of the amazing love He has shown us. We do it because He has delivered us from death. We do it because we trust Him completely with the future of our lives. God was angry with the Children of Israel when they wouldn't enter the promised land initially. Why? He had saved them from Egypt, he had demonstrated his complete love and mercy....yet they simply didn't trust in His power. They didn't believe or trust in what He had done (saved them from slavery and death) or in what He had promised for future (ie the promised land). They listened to the voices of fear and doubt. Don't you see the parallel? If God has justified us and saved us through Christ when we have repented and turned to Him then why would we not trust Him completely to continue to protect and save us forever (ie be in His promised land eternally). If God has given us his Holy Spirit to work in us and make us more like Jesus, why would we doubt that He will do it - surely we need to trust that He will. And we are told that we are to live as people that have been saved as His children in newness of life. The alternative seems to be that our feeble efforts will somehow merit God's goodness. That just shows that we are relying on our own strength - not God's. The Children of Israel failed miserably when they thought their own efforts might get them somewhere. But when they trusted totally in God's power they were completely victorious. Ross, I never ever rely on my own strength, I'd fall in a heartbeat! It's only though Gods grace that Christ through the holy spirit is saving me from Satan. I have said that many times. Also, delivering us from death, is delivering us from Satan. He makes us dead to God, if we listen to him. And I really I didn't mean why in the way you have explained, I follow him through love too. But why do we have to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Jesus if were already saved, why the self denial and enduring (suffering) until the end? Why do we have to lose our life to save it? What's the point of doing this if the price for our sins has been paid by Jesus dying on the cross? and what does it mean to you to take up your cross and deny yourself in the way you believe?
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jul 23, 2015 3:43:57 GMT -5
And I really I didn't mean why in the way you have explained, I follow him through love too. But why do we have to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Jesus if were already saved, why the self denial and enduring (suffering) until the end? Why do we have to lose our life to save it? What's the point of doing this if the price for our sins has been paid by Jesus dying on the cross? and what does it mean to you to take up your cross and deny yourself in the way you believe? Simply because one doesn't go without the other.... You can't truly repent, turn to Christ and trust in His provision (ie freedom from sin forever) and promises for the future and then just live your own life as if nothing has happened - it's like trusting completely in God for one day and then just saying I won't trust God any more. As with the C of I, if God has saved us and we reject Him (remember the C of I said on the verge of entering the Promised land "God hates us...") then clearly we are not saved. When we repent and turn to Christ we lose our life....in order to save it. And as we live for Him He continues to protect us every day. I'll try to summarise as best I can the different beliefs:Alternative One (which is what I understand you believe)
You repent, turn to Christ and trust in Him. Your current sins at that time are forgiven. You follow Jesus and you try to live as best you can, albeit imperfectly and you believe that God's Holy Spirit is working in you to make you more like Jesus. Approaching death (whenever that might be) you have absolutely zero assurance that God will save you. You hope He does save you because you have loved Him and tried to deny your flesh. But you have some doubts because God has said that the best you can offer will never be acceptable to God. On judgement day, you stand before Him a sinner because that's what you were when you died. God hates sin and He judges it, but you hope that he allows you into heaven. Alternative Two (what I believe)
You repent, turn to Christ and trust in Him. You are justified or made right before God because of what Christ has done for you on the cross and your sins, present, past and future are forgiven as you continue to trust in Him until the end. God has promised that and we trust in His promises. God works in you by His Holy Spirit to make you more like Jesus. You follow Jesus and you try to live as best you can, albeit imperfectly, knowing that you have been forgiven and cleansed, and even though you fail, God will continue to protect you as you continue to trust Him. You live in His complete protection and forgiveness. Approaching death you continue to have complete confidence that God will continue to protect you completely in His Kingdom forever.On judgement day, you stand before Him and give an account. When the Father looks on you He sees Jesus only because you are clothed completely in His righteousness. You continue to live in His Kingdom forever. Alternative Three (what you refer to in your posts sometimes)
You repent, turn to Christ and trust in Him. You believe you are saved and have been forgiven for sins, past, present and future. Because you have been forgiven you believe that you can live as if nothing has changed - you do what you want to, you never think about God, you don't trust in His provision and the average person wouldn't even know you were a Christian because it's just a label - doesn't mean anything else really. You die not thinking about God and the future. On judgement day, you stand before Him and give an account. You stand as a sinner before God and He judges you accordingly - as he did the Children of Israel and others who didn't trust Him for the future. Does this make it any clearer where some of us are coming from? Three represents a completely hopeless future from a Christian viewpoint. One represents a completely uncertain future from a Christian viewpoint. Two represents what God has written in the Bible and offers complete protection for the future because He is a completely faithful God who has provided a complete solution for sin at Calvary which allows Christ to ultimately present us before the Father on judgement day as blameless and sinless in His sight.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 4:52:12 GMT -5
And I really I didn't mean why in the way you have explained, I follow him through love too. But why do we have to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Jesus if were already saved, why the self denial and enduring (suffering) until the end? Why do we have to lose our life to save it? What's the point of doing this if the price for our sins has been paid by Jesus dying on the cross? and what does it mean to you to take up your cross and deny yourself in the way you believe? Simply because one doesn't go without the other.... You can't truly repent, turn to Christ and trust in His provision (ie freedom from sin forever) and promises for the future and then just live your own life as if nothing has happened - it's like trusting completely in God for one day and then just saying I won't trust God any more. As with the C of I, if God has saved us and we reject Him (remember the C of I said on the verge of entering the Promised land "God hates us...") then clearly we are not saved. When we repent and turn to Christ we lose our life....in order to save it. And as we live for Him He continues to protect us every day. I'll try to summarise as best I can the different beliefs:Alternative One (which is what I understand you believe)
You repent, turn to Christ and trust in Him. Your current sins at that time are forgiven. You follow Jesus and you try to live as best you can, albeit imperfectly and you believe that God's Holy Spirit is working in you to make you more like Jesus. Approaching death (whenever that might be) you have absolutely zero assurance that God will save you. You hope He does save you because you have loved Him and tried to deny your flesh. But you have some doubts because God has said that the best you can offer will never be acceptable to God. On judgement day, you stand before Him a sinner because that's what you were when you died. God hates sin and He judges it, but you hope that he allows you into heaven. Alternative Two (what I believe)
You repent, turn to Christ and trust in Him. You are justified or made right before God because of what Christ has done for you on the cross and your sins, present, past and future are forgiven as you continue to trust in Him until the end. God has promised that and we trust in His promises. God works in you by His Holy Spirit to make you more like Jesus. You follow Jesus and you try to live as best you can, albeit imperfectly, knowing that you have been forgiven and cleansed, and even though you fail, God will continue to protect you as you continue to trust Him. You live in His complete protection and forgiveness. Approaching death you continue to have complete confidence that God will continue to protect you completely in His Kingdom forever.On judgement day, you stand before Him and give an account. When the Father looks on you He sees Jesus only because you are clothed completely in His righteousness. You continue to live in His Kingdom forever. Alternative Three (what you refer to in your posts sometimes)
You repent, turn to Christ and trust in Him. You believe you are saved and have been forgiven for sins, past, present and future. Because you have been forgiven you believe that you can live as if nothing has changed - you do what you want to, you never think about God, you don't trust in His provision and the average person wouldn't even know you were a Christian because it's just a label - doesn't mean anything else really. You die not thinking about God and the future. On judgement day, you stand before Him and give an account. You stand as a sinner before God and He judges you accordingly - as he did the Children of Israel and others who didn't trust Him for the future. Does this make it any clearer where some of us are coming from? Three represents a completely hopeless future from a Christian viewpoint. One represents a completely uncertain future from a Christian viewpoint. Two represents what God has written in the Bible and offers complete protection for the future because He is a completely faithful God who has provided a complete solution for sin at Calvary which allows Christ to ultimately present us before the Father on judgement day as blameless and sinless in His sight. I do trust in God completely, but I won't receive his spirit unless I'm living right! It's a bit more than just believing that Jesus died for our sins! Anyway, all that still doesn't answer my question, if we are already saved, why do we have to take up our cross daily and deny ourselves? And what is taking up your cross and denying yourself to you?
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Post by bubbles on Jul 23, 2015 5:54:39 GMT -5
Now my question not only to you, but to all those who think were already saved and going to heaven. If were already saved and the price is already paid, why did Jesus ask us to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him, and endure until the end of our lives to be saved, what does this mean? Why do we have to do this if were already saved, and why did anyone who followed him in the past have to do it too? Because if it's all done for us already and we just have to believe, then surely it isn't necessary for us to do this. So why do we have to do it? I think we have already answered this one We do it because we love Him with all our hearts. We do it because He has graciously adopted us into His family. We do it because we want to live in His Kingdom forever. We do it because of the amazing love He has shown us. We do it because He has delivered us from death. We do it because we trust Him completely with the future of our lives. God was angry with the Children of Israel when they wouldn't enter the promised land initially. Why? He had saved them from Egypt, he had demonstrated his complete love and mercy....yet they simply didn't trust in His power. They didn't believe or trust in what He had done (saved them from slavery and death) or in what He had promised for future (ie the promised land). They listened to the voices of fear and doubt. Don't you see the parallel? If God has justified us and saved us through Christ when we have repented and turned to Him then why would we not trust Him completely to continue to protect and save us forever (ie be in His promised land eternally). If God has given us his Holy Spirit to work in us and make us more like Jesus, why would we doubt that He will do it - surely we need to trust that He will. And we are told that we are to live as people that have been saved as His children in newness of life. The alternative seems to be that our feeble efforts will somehow merit God's goodness. That just shows that we are relying on our own strength - not God's. The Children of Israel failed miserably when they thought their own efforts might get them somewhere. But when they trusted totally in God's power they were completely victorious. "Obedience is better than sacrifice." Taking up the cross, denying ourself, overcoming the world the flesh and the devil are all part of enforcing our love, our trust in Christ. Prayer,fasting, intercession, waiting on the lord are what we do to have communion and abide in his presence. He said it is finished. It was the greatest act of divine justice ever carried out done in the determined purpose and foreknowledge of god. Acts 2:23 Christs death was Gods perfect plan for the redemption of his own. It wasnt a victory for satan. It was the most gracious act of Gods mercy and goodness. The expression of the fathers love for humanity. 2 Cor 5:21 "He made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God."
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 23, 2015 6:44:53 GMT -5
Hi Maryhig,
You are not, by far, the first person to struggle with these very good questions! It was very much in the minds of those struggling with the gospel at the time of the New Testament. I'd highly recommend reading Romans in its entirety. Answers to your questions really start to come together in Romans 3:
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
If we, by taking up our cross and following Christ, claim that this somehow adds to our salvation (or, God forbid, earns us salvation), we are boasting in (or trusting in) our own works. Yes, we do need to take up our cross and deny ourselves and follow Christ. But we do this because of what God has done for us. It shows and proves our complete trust in Him. We don't do it so we can have salvation. We do it because we already have salvation. Living for God proves that we believe him. If we didn't, we wouldn't bother with the whole self-denial thing.
Keep reading thru all of Romans. The question you are asking was also asked in Romans 6:15. Once saved by Christ, it is impossible to want to sin and live for ourselves, because we now live through the spirit.
Check out how many times in the Bible salvation is referred to as a "gift". It is offensive to the one who has paid the highest price for this gift to keep telling him we will pay for it ourselves.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 23, 2015 6:47:10 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't know why some of that is italicized and some is not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 9:47:36 GMT -5
Very interesting response, Maryhig.
For me it couldn't possibly be more explicit. The Son KNEW what lay ahead of Him, begged His Father to arrange it differently, but said, "not my will but THINE be done." Cut and dried, no waffling necessary!
If you have a different understanding, well, you have a different understanding.
My Lord's understanding, stress, and distress was so great, it reportedly caused him to sweat great drops of it, like blood dripping. How much more explicit can the record be that it was the Father's will? Just that easy for me, though not for you, yet you would be a "teacher" here....
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Post by hberry on Jul 23, 2015 10:05:27 GMT -5
SNIP I'm happy for you to find the place where I've said that "it's just believing" but you won't find it I keep wondering the same thing myself.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 12:57:18 GMT -5
Very interesting response, Maryhig.
For me it couldn't possibly be more explicit. The Son KNEW what lay ahead of Him, begged His Father to arrange it differently, but said, "not my will but THINE be done." Cut and dried, no waffling necessary!
If you have a different understanding, well, you have a different understanding.
My Lord's understanding, stress, and distress was so great, it reportedly caused him to sweat great drops of it, like blood dripping. How much more explicit can the record be that it was the Father's will? Just that easy for me, though not for you, yet you would be a "teacher" here.... Dennis a teacher I'm certainly not, a scholar I'm not either, I'm not that intelligent! But I love God. And I listen to the spirit in my heart, and regardless of how many of you judge me, it's not you I have to face, it's God. So I must go with what I believe is right in my heart, as you do what's right in yours. I keep explaining my beliefs because I seem to be constantly hearing that the way I believe is wrong, and even being told that I have face God still in my sins because I don't believe in the way others believe! Well one thing I do know, my heart is sincere and when I go to God, I will fall in my face before him and hope he forgives me, sins and all. Because I'm just human! And nothing better. It's only Gods holy spirit giving me strength to overcome, and I'm nothing without him!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 13:00:34 GMT -5
I do trust in God completely, but I won't receive his spirit unless I'm living right! It's a bit more than just believing that Jesus died for our sins! Anyway, all that still doesn't answer my question, if we are already saved, why do we have to take up our cross daily and deny ourselves? And what is taking up your cross and denying yourself to you? It simply means to give your whole life to God - follow Jesus and live as a child in His Kingdom. I'm happy for you to find the place where I've said that "it's just believing" but you won't find it Repenting is turning away from our old life and now living for Him and trusting Him for the future. Out of interest, do you feel like you are "living right" every day? How do you know? How do you measure your thoughts/actions against God's perfectness? I keep saying that I sin, I'm not perfect, I try to not purposely sin. But that doesn't always happen either! I just don't say I'm definitely forgiven if I purposely sin! I leave it in Gods hands for him to judge me!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 13:04:33 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't know why some of that is italicized and some is not. Sorry Elizabeth I'm on the way to the meeting, I will look at what you've written after, thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 13:47:53 GMT -5
Maryh, ma'am, it certainly appears to me you wish to be a teacher here. What is a "scholar" to you. Would solid years of study, research qualify one, and the ability to study and learn languages? Would that also indicate intellect to you?
Not once in over a decade of posting to this forum, have I ever pointed to anything or anyone as my "Absolute," save The LORD!
Most certainly I have shared reason upon reason why that is so, never once intending to force anyone else to believe accordingly. In reading your posts, I always go away thinking "well, that certainly leaves no room for what I believe, without identifying why except for her feelings, which often ignore scripture of which I believe you are unaware by ignoring it.
An interesting thought is, if through Yahu'shuah ha Meshiach, believers sins are forgiven though repentance, and our Lord and God exists outside our restricted time continuum, what would that indicate to you about future sin? What about places where The Written Record of the Word indicates such a wonderful God will no longer even mark (notice?) sin of a believer?
Have you ever considered what the sin that was referred to as "willful" actually was? Could it not be as many believe "returning to blood sacrifice" for sin after having accepted the Lord as propitiation for their sin? A willful act, which I do not believe you have ever, or will ever commit, nor anyone else once having learned of the Gospel!
To me by your own numerous posts, you reflect you are still under bondage to sin. That makes me sad, and I wish it were not so for you, as does the Lord for those who know Him, who and what He is as Yahu'shuah ha Meshiach, the name and title given Him, not by Paul, but as recorded in the Gospel account. The very concept of two goats, one slain, one set free... What was the difference?
The one set free carried the sins of all those believing in God in its day. It was a reoccurring affair, unnecessary after our Lord's obedience to the Father's will (which you cannot seem to accept) hanging on that "t" (you see, some of us believe the part of wood too great for our injured Lord to carry, so borne by the other, was fastened to the top of the pole dropped into it's socket. Oh, the suffering and shame.
If only one angel, passing over the camp of the enemies of old Israel, could slaughter as many in as short of time as is recorded, what do you think could/would have happened at Calvary, had it not been in accordance with the Father's will as the Son prayed? Personally, I doubt whether any of us would even be alive today, had The Father turned those angels loose on mankind then, but that is just my own thinking. There simply is no telling what would have happened...
Peace be unto you, Maryhig.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 17:43:56 GMT -5
Maryh, ma'am, it certainly appears to me you wish to be a teacher here. What is a "scholar" to you. Would solid years of study, research qualify one, and the ability to study and learn languages? Would that also indicate intellect to you?
Not once in over a decade of posting to this forum, have I ever pointed to anything or anyone as my "Absolute," save The LORD!
Most certainly I have shared reason upon reason why that is so, never once intending to force anyone else to believe accordingly. In reading your posts, I always go away thinking "well, that certainly leaves no room for what I believe, without identifying why except for her feelings, which often ignore scripture of which I believe you are unaware by ignoring it.
An interesting thought is, if through Yahu'shuah ha Meshiach, believers sins are forgiven though repentance, and our Lord and God exists outside our restricted time continuum, what would that indicate to you about future sin? What about places where The Written Record of the Word indicates such a wonderful God will no longer even mark (notice?) sin of a believer?
Have you ever considered what the sin that was referred to as "willful" actually was? Could it not be as many believe "returning to blood sacrifice" for sin after having accepted the Lord as propitiation for their sin? A willful act, which I do not believe you have ever, or will ever commit, nor anyone else once having learned of the Gospel!
To me by your own numerous posts, you reflect you are still under bondage to sin. That makes me sad, and I wish it were not so for you, as does the Lord for those who know Him, who and what He is as Yahu'shuah ha Meshiach, the name and title given Him, not by Paul, but as recorded in the Gospel account. The very concept of two goats, one slain, one set free... What was the difference?
The one set free carried the sins of all those believing in God in its day. It was a reoccurring affair, unnecessary after our Lord's obedience to the Father's will (which you cannot seem to accept) hanging on that "t" (you see, some of us believe the part of wood too great for our injured Lord to carry, so borne by the other, was fastened to the top of the pole dropped into it's socket. Oh, the suffering and shame.
If only one angel, passing over the camp of the enemies of old Israel, could slaughter as many in as short of time as is recorded, what do you think could/would have happened at Calvary, had it not been in accordance with the Father's will as the Son prayed? Personally, I doubt whether any of us would even be alive today, had The Father turned those angels loose on mankind then, but that is just my own thinking. There simply is no telling what would have happened...
Peace be unto you, Maryhig. Hi Dennis, I really don't know much about scholars, but I know the author of the bible can teach us direct to our hearts. I don't intend to be any teacher, I'm not intelligent enough for that I'm afraid. I try to explain myself in detail because when I don't, people start to say that it's not our righteousness and its not our works. And I know this. But it is brought up a lot so i just try to explain properly what I mean. You say I ignore scripture yet I nearly always back up what I say by the scriptures. Look back at my posts and see! It's just that you believe differently to me. I don't think I'm anything special and i would never ever say that people aren't going to heaven, or that my way is the only way. I don't know peoples hearts, and that is what God judges. I am just expressing my beliefs. Just as you do! I can't even believe that I am going to heaven, because I don't feel worthy. And my heart tells me, that I have to endure to the end of my life to be saved and Jesus tells us this himself! And its only Christ resurrected in my heart that saves me daily from Satan as long as I am following him. I never once said that Paul gave Jesus the title of messiah, I've said that it was revealed by God to Peter's heart way before Paul was around. I'm sorry that you see my like this Dennis, but I don't myself as a teacher or above others, I see myself a whole lot differently and a lot lower than I must seem to appear to you and whoever else thinks like this about me! And I leave my heart in Gods hands. And he knows how sincere I am and how much I love him. I can't believe the same way as others do if I feel it's wrong. I have to go with what I believe is right in my heart. As do you to. Thanks for your reply
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Post by snow on Jul 23, 2015 19:28:26 GMT -5
That's true Maryhig, you never said Paul gave Jesus the title of messiah, I did. As far as the belief that Jesus is God, you can't win that conversation with those who believe that way. As seen in Irvine Grey's conclusion, those who don't believe or teach the Trinity, that Jesus is God, well, they are a 'particularly dangerous cult'. If you believe Jesus was a man, although a perfect man, they will tell you that you are wrong and there is nothing you can say or do about it. It's just the way it is apparently. I figure if there is a God he looks to the heart of people and not so much their beliefs because they are so many different beliefs and interpretations. You prove over and over that you have a loving heart and that you love your God. He, if he exists, will know that. Love was the commandment wasn't it. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, or words to that effect? Well, I don't think anyone can say you don't.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 23, 2015 20:28:12 GMT -5
Very interesting response, Maryhig.
For me it couldn't possibly be more explicit. The Son KNEW what lay ahead of Him, begged His Father to arrange it differently, but said, "not my will but THINE be done." Cut and dried, no waffling necessary!
If you have a different understanding, well, you have a different understanding.
My Lord's understanding, stress, and distress was so great, it reportedly caused him to sweat great drops of it, like blood dripping. How much more explicit can the record be that it was the Father's will? Just that easy for me, though not for you, yet you would be a "teacher" here.... I Dennis Im surprised at your comment. It seemed a bit harsh. Maryhig doesnt come across to me as you describe. All of us are on a journey of life and each of us is different. Maryhig comes across as humble and strong in her beliefs she is very open and honest about how she thinks. Which is refreshing. Hey the apostles squabbled amongst themselves.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 24, 2015 1:24:19 GMT -5
I Dennis Im surprised at your comment. It seemed a bit harsh. Maryhig doesnt come across to me as you describe. All of us are on a journey of life and each of us is different. Maryhig comes across as humble and strong in her beliefs she is very open and honest about how she thinks. Which is refreshing. Hey the apostles squabbled amongst themselves. I agree with Dennis J. He is a wise teacher on this matter, sometimes it's hard to tell people the Truth because it hurts .... None of us on here wants to teach any heresy teachings... MaryH is a lovely God fearing person... Nobody wants to teach or pass something contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Dennis just hope MaryJ. will take the time to ponder, pray, and mediate many posters knowledge, understanding on this subject. Nobody can change her mind, ONLY God can. MaryJ. take the time to ponder and pray about these things, please. We want you to be the BEST teacher! because We KNOW you already have the zeal and love for God in your heart.Thanks for your replies, and Nathan, I am willing to take criticism, but my beliefs are just that. My beliefs, and I shouldn't have to change them for anyone. I don't mind Dennis telling me what be believes or where he thinks I'm wrong, I get that all the time but it's saying that I look like I'm trying to forward my beliefs as if I'm a teacher. I'm just saying I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to explain myself clearly. One thing you don't realise, is that I have never known any other religion, I my mum started going to the meeting when I was young, and my dad didn't believe in God. So when I came here and read all the different beliefs I was shocked! Many I agree with, but the trinity I don't. But Nathan because you believe in the trinity, doesn't mean that I have to. I leave everything in Gods hands, because he knows my heart. None of us are perfect. I'm only just starting to realise what a strong hold the trinity doctrine has. From what I'm reading, I think people believe that Jesus has covered you in righteousness so God can't see any sins you commit, so when you die you get into heaven no problem, but anyone else who doesn't believe this, hasn't got a chance of getting in because God won't look at them because their sins are still upon them I think that's right? If you believe this, then you also believe that your way is exclusive, just like many of you who believe in the trinity accuse the f&w's of saying that it's only their way or no way! It's like many outside the fellowship believe this also, it's the trinity or no way. And you must believe what I believe or your out! Also Nathan, from what I can see, many of your people don't believe in the trinity either, so do you believe they are teaching and believing contrary to the teachings of Jesus also? And are their teachings heresy because they don't believe in the trinity? I don't see it like this, Jesus said that we're to love our father with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, and our neighbour as ourselves and he said take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, and that those that lose their life for my sake shall find it. And he said narrow is the way to eternal life. In other words following him is the way. Not believing in a trinity. I have never as I've been reading the bible seen Jesus say, you must believe that I am God or that we the father, son and the holy ghost are one and we three are God. and that I am equal to the father. and you won't get to heaven if you don't believe this. He said, without the father, I can do nothing. Thank you father I know that you hear me always. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. He left everything to God. he also said, I ascend to my father and your father, and to my God and your God. And when he did say, the father and I are one, he also said John 17 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 14 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Dennis may be a wonderful teacher, and know a whole lot more and be better than me, and that's great, he does seem very knowledgeable in languages and scriptures. But I listen to my father in my heart, and his spirit teaches me that I'm right about the trinity. As for the crucifixion. Well that also is something i have to listen to what my heart tells me is right also, and I shouldn't have to believe what you or others do. And no matter what i believe, I would never condemn others, Because Nathan only God judges, you, me and everyone else in this world.
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Post by Mary on Jul 24, 2015 1:58:31 GMT -5
God does see our sins but he forgives our sin when we repent and accept him as Lord and savior.
The Trinity is not a 2x2 teaching or belief but those Christians outside the 2x2s as people call them. You will see that in the posts by fixit and Bert. They go to meetings and don't believe in the trinity. The workers mostly do not believe in the trinity.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 24, 2015 2:03:36 GMT -5
God does see our sins but he forgives our sin when we repent and accept him as Lord and savior. The Trinity is not a 2x2 teaching or belief but those Christians outside the 2x2s as people call them. You will see that in the posts by fixit and Bert. They go to meetings and don't believe in the trinity. The workers mostly do not believe in the trinity. Thank you Mary for explaining this
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 24, 2015 5:56:30 GMT -5
Just a couple of questions for you to ponder Maryhig.
Who created the heavens and the earth? Through whom were they created? (The Father or the Son?)
Who is the First and the Last? The Alpha and the Omega? The Beginning and the End? (The Father or the Son?)
Who is on the throne in Revelation? To whom do all fall down and worship? (The Father of the Son?)
Finally ... who raised Jesus from the dead?
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 24, 2015 8:05:00 GMT -5
Another question -. Scripture interchanges "Christ in us" and the "Spirit in us". Does this indicate a DUAL presence in the life of believer? Alvin
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Post by bubbles on Jul 24, 2015 14:45:20 GMT -5
Another question -. Scripture interchanges "Christ in us" and the "Spirit in us". Does this indicate a DUAL presence in the life of believer? Alvin The holy spirit is the presence and power of the father and son. They are not 2 different spirits. If you have seen the son you have seen the father. They work as one.
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Post by faune on Jul 27, 2015 12:55:04 GMT -5
When and Where the Anti-Trinity teaching came from?The controversy seemed to have been brought to an end by the Council of Nicaea (ad 325), which condemned Arius and his teaching and issued a creed to safeguard orthodox Christian belief. This creed states that the Son is homoousion tō Patri (“of one substance with the Father”), thus declaring him to be all that the Father is: he is completely divine. In fact, however, this was only the beginning of a long-protracted dispute. From 325 to 337, when the emperor Constantine died, the Arian leaders, exiled after the Council of Nicaea, tried by intrigue to return to their churches and sees and to banish their enemies. They were partly successful. From 337 to 350 Constanstine, sympathetic to the orthodox Christians, was emperor in the West, and Constantius II, sympathetic to the Arians, was emperor in the East. At a church council held at Antioch (341), an affirmation of faith that omitted the homoousion clause was issued. Another church council was held at Sardica (modern Sofia) in 342, but little was achieved by either council. Arius’ basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated, so the Son cannot be God. The Son must, therefore, be deemed a creature who has been called into existence out of nothing and has had a beginning. Moreover, the Son can have no direct knowledge of the Father since the Son is finite and of a different order of existence. Felicity ~ Honestly, I don't feel many churches, my Baptist Church included, speak much about the Trinity doctrine. However, it's part of the Apostles Creed or Statement of Beliefs, which was later expounded upon in the Nicene Creed was assembled back in 325 A.D. under the Early Church Fathers to refuse the Arian Heresy. It's a foundational belief among most Christian churches today. However, when I was first attending meetings and at conventions I have heard senior workers speak against the Trinity and call it a false doctrine. Perhaps they are not doing it that much anymore, but it was pretty common back in the 1960's and 1970's during my younger days within the 2x2's. By the way, I was an outsider who professed as a teenager and not B&R within the group, so I missed out on that phase of it. By the way, I can remember George Walker when I was young referring to the Godhead as being like the shamrock. Perhaps he learned that over in Ireland? From your reference to the Anglican Church in your area, I would guess you are from the British Isles or perhaps Australia or New Zealand, where it is more prominent? However, I do know you are not from Colorado from you last post. carm.org/nicene-creed Thanks, Faune I came to the same conclusion as you, I wish many Christians know and understand the history of when and where these Trinity, Triune God terminologies came from, so people wouldn't say it's a doctrine of the devil or heresy. The 2nd Century apostles who understood the concept of the Godhead revealed by Jesus, then the apostles taught them. It was the 2nd century apostles who had a clearer understanding of the Godhead, came up with these terminologies such as the Trinity, Triune God, Jesus is God to describe Him is part of the Godhead. Then in the 3rd century Arian and his followers opposed the Trinity and Divinity of Christ.Early Christian History Heresies: Arianismwww.earlychristianhistory.info/arius.html Nathan ~ I feel many folks are not aware of the purpose of Church Creeds being established in the first place? The reason for which was usually the result of heresies or false teachings entering the church congregations that needed to be clarified by a given set of Christian beliefs. Heresies began being introduced by the Gnostics in the early 2nd century and increased until the 4th century, which motivated the establishment of the Nicene Creed (325 A.D.) and others which followed. www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds.htm
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