|
Post by rational on Jul 27, 2015 14:23:19 GMT -5
My, the arrogance of you! What makes you think you know better than the billions of people around the world who have a belief in God or any other gods? I tried to ask the people who worshiped Zeus and Thor - not much luck. And the millions who worshiped the Egyptian god Ra. Not much luck there, either. Perhaps the reason she can say that is based on the past history of the human race and the hundreds of gods they have created and worshiped. The gods have come and when they have fulfilled the need for which they were created, they were let go. What makes you think your god is any different? A gods graveyard.Humans are usually looking through a very short term window. 2,000 or 6,000 years seems like a long time but it is really just a thin slice.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 27, 2015 14:39:16 GMT -5
If you have access to such knowledge such that you can proclaim there is no God, by definition YOU MUST BE GOD!!!! That would be, perhaps, your definition. I can proclaim there is no unicorn but that does not make me a unicorn. You are free to believe as you wish. If you, however, make statements that seem false to others I am sure there might be some comment.How could you detect the atheists to keep them in check?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 27, 2015 16:19:18 GMT -5
I don't believe God does anything evil! Satan does the evil works in this world. The person directly responsible for killing David's son is pretty clear in the bible: And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became very ill.... Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child diedHard to read that as anything but god the death of the child. Only after 7 days of suffering.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Jul 27, 2015 16:33:39 GMT -5
If you have access to such knowledge such that you can proclaim there is no God, by definition YOU MUST BE GOD!!!! That would be, perhaps, your definition. I can proclaim there is no unicorn but that does not make me a unicorn. Understanding God as all knowing or omniscient, would explain what the intent of the original post was. A unicorn is generally not understood as all knowing. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 27, 2015 16:42:24 GMT -5
That would be, perhaps, your definition. I can proclaim there is no unicorn but that does not make me a unicorn. Understanding God as all knowing or omniscient, would explain what the intent of the original post was. A unicorn is generally not understood as all knowing. Alvin Although asked, Lee has not (to my knowledge) ever provided us with a complete description of his god. More to the point, proof of the existence of either god or the unicorn has yet to be presented. I doubt the argument would change if I were to define the unicorn in question as omniscient and omnipotent. Saying no such entity exists still does not make me a unicorn.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Jul 27, 2015 16:53:44 GMT -5
We are discussing an unprovable question, so not much point in asking for proof. Some believe, some don't, and neither one can prove it. One can only look at evidence, and choose whether one believes or not. Many do not believe man landed on the moon or the Holocaust or any other history. Not provable, to conspiracy theorists,and many more and the evidence provided is not sufficient for them. And they choose not to believe. Nature and the universe is evidence enough for myself to believe in God, but not sufficient or whatever for others, so be it. Or Amen. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 28, 2015 8:21:04 GMT -5
We are discussing an unprovable question, so not much point in asking for proof. I agree. There has never been proof of a paranormal being so making a statement that depends on the existence of such a being holds little meaning.There is no need disprove the existence of an entity that is claimed to exist without any proof.Evidence would be proof. None has been offered. It is a matter of belief and belief only.True, but in those cases there is verifiable proof.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Jul 28, 2015 8:36:44 GMT -5
Evidence is not proof. - eg.grampa smokes 40 cigarettes a day and lived to be 105 is not proof that smoking is or is not harmful. I have seen coins with the image of Caesar on them. And read books and history etc. Us not proof Caesar ever existed. Artifacts, stories, pictures, of the holocaust are not proof, only evidence. You get to choose whether you believe evidence or not. For nathan. The YouTube videos are sufficient evidence to believe hollow earth etc. For others it is not. For myself, nature, universe etc. Is sufficient evidence to believe in God. For others it is not. Courtrooms are filled with evidence by lawyers, which do not convince the judge or jury to believe , let alone prove a case. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 28, 2015 12:49:08 GMT -5
Evidence is not proof. - eg.grampa smokes 40 cigarettes a day and lived to be 105 is not proof that smoking is or is not harmful. I have seen coins with the image of Caesar on them. And read books and history etc. Us not proof Caesar ever existed. Artifacts, stories, pictures, of the holocaust are not proof, only evidence. You get to choose whether you believe evidence or not. In the real world there is no proof except in mathematics and logic. Evidence is used to provide support for an hypothesis/theory but those conclusions are subject to change when new/contradictory evidence is discovered. I was in error interchanging proof with evidence.OK. Do you have a hypothesis supported by what you believe to be evidence of god?
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 28, 2015 13:12:38 GMT -5
To MaryJ. most all of the 2x2 early workers believe in God is 3 Beings The Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit as time goes on somehow the anti-Trinity was taught by some senior workers and that belief grew and it has stayed among us. However, there are many workers today believe, teach in the Triune/God= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit."the doctrine of the Trinity is a doctrine from hell" senior workers recent message at gospel meeting Many of the current workers do NOT understand the Triune/God doctrine or the history of the Trinity. When I was in the work (1986-94) many workers taught and believed the word God refers ONLY to the Father. It seems many workers still believe it today! They don't believe Jesus is God/Yahweh. They teach Jesus is ONLY the Son of God NOT God. They say the Trinity doctrine comes from the RCC which is totally incorrect. Dan HiltonThe word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985] Dan HiltonBeware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] ~~ Nathan B: Dan Hilton was a senior worker, a well respected Bible student in Washington State and California, USA. He was on Calf. and Washington State staff for many years... This is what Dan Hilton preached/taught for many years when I was in living in Washington State. The workers on the staff just passed on what they heard from the Senior workers had taught them through the years without doing a serious study themselves...
The concept of the Triune God is taught in the Old and New Testament. In the 2nd century the second generation of the apostles/church fathers came up with the word Trinity to describe the Triune/God in the Bible.Apostolic fathers writings: Crytians (250 A.D.) We are NOT ignorant that there is ONE God; and One Christ, the Lord; and One Holy Spirit. Jesus said, "Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit." He suggested that TRINITY, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized. Hippolytus (205 A.D.) It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who give understanding. The Father is above ALL, the Son is through ALL, and the Holy Spirit is in ALL. Paul the apostle explains that there is the exact same order within the TRINITY, saying, "I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (I Cor. 11:3). So the Father has authority over the Son. The Son is sent by the Father; the Son does the will of the Father; and the Son sits at the Father's right hand. This hierarchy of order can not be reversed. Yet this hierarchy of order in no way diminishes the Son's divinity.Origin (225 A.D.) Saving baptism was NOT complete except by the authority of the most excellent TRINITY of them all. That is, it is made complete by naming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this, we join the name of the Holy Spirit to the Unbegotten God (the Father) and to His Only-begotten Son. Nathan, I'm not aware of any worker that teaches the Trinity. Not one. You list workers that are no longer around. What worker that you know of teaches this TODAY?
|
|
hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
|
Post by hberry on Jul 28, 2015 13:47:02 GMT -5
Nathan, I'm not aware of any worker that teaches the Trinity. Not one. You list workers that are no longer around. What worker that you know of teaches this TODAY? As far as the workers I know, you are right JD. I know of one worker in a foreign country who inherited Leo Stancliffe's notes, and this particular worker is borderline--but he would NEVER preach it. We had that discussion last year when he was at our house.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 28, 2015 16:08:40 GMT -5
Nathan, I'm not aware of any worker that teaches the Trinity. Not one. You list workers that are no longer around. What worker that you know of teaches this TODAY? Have you met or heard all of the 2x2 workers, JD? Then how can you say NOT one!
Here is one of many workers names for you... Reviewoo5 on TMB... He believes Jesus is Divine... Many workers believe and taught Jesus is divine= God. They don't like using the word Trinity but they believed He is Divine. The workers teach Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man. They make him on the equal footing with the Godhead. They just DON'T like the word Trinity which have the RCC connection but they believe and teach the concept Jesus is Divine= God.
Mark Huddle the current overseer in Washington state said, "Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man." at Walla, Walla convention in 1980s.
In 2007 Brad Lewis, an ex-worker came to Phu's house and had a visit with Chau, the senior worker in VN. He asked Chau do you believe in the Trinity, and Chau said, "Yes, I do." I talked to Chau about his thoughts on the Trinity after Brad left the house.The reason I can say is that "I am not aware of even one" is because I am not aware of even one. I didn't say "there is not one" I said, I'm not aware of one. Again, I asked you who you know of that preaches it today, not 35 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2015 8:17:34 GMT -5
The reason I can say is that "I am not aware of even one" is because I am not aware of even one. I didn't say "there is not one" I said, I'm not aware of one. Again, I asked you who you know of that preaches it today, not 35 years ago. Off course you're NOT aware of one because you've NOT met or heard from the workers that I have. I gave you three names of workers who are preaching it today! Think about this carefully Nathan. You gave me 3 Workers names; 1. Review: First, this is not a name. 2nd, he's from a country far, far away from us. 3rd, according to you, he has said that Jesus is "Devine". YOU put words into his mouth saying "Devine=God". He didn't say this, you did. And he certainly didn't say (that I know of) that there is a Godhead, or Trinity, made up of Jesus, God, and the HS, that are all one. And he also didn't say that Jesus IS God. Review is on this site, maybe he can explain what he believes. 2. Chau: So you heard through Brad Lewis (2nd hand) that Chau believes in the Trinity. Chau, the Worker that was asked to leave the Work for a while. Another Worker from Far, Far away, that YOU never actually heard him teach this. You in fact probably read it on the "Anti-Truth" website of Brad Lewis - did you not? Regardless, I'm sure that one of the conditionos of letting him preach again was that he didn't preach the Trinity. 3. The one other one you mention, Mark Huddle in the 80s. This was 35 years ago. I have heard him preach at convention, but have never heard him preach "The Trinity". This doesn't mean he doesn't, but the only thing I've heard about the Trinity from F&W is that its false teaching. You have given NOTHING to indicate that ANY worker teaches, or preaches the Trinity today that we know of. Especially here in the USA.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Jul 29, 2015 8:36:03 GMT -5
To my knowledge, and in our area. Jon dough is correct . One of the accusations used for our excomm. Was that I had said in meeting, that Jesus is god. In conversation, with that worker it was accepted, but definitely not in meeting. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2015 10:39:20 GMT -5
Think about this carefully Nathan. You gave me 3 Workers names; 1. Review: First, this is not a name. 2nd, he's from a country far, far away from us. 3rd, according to you, he has said that Jesus is "Devine". YOU put words into his mouth saying "Devine=God". He didn't say this, you did. And he certainly didn't say (that I know of) that there is a Godhead, or Trinity, made up of Jesus, God, and the HS, that are all one. And he also didn't say that Jesus IS God. Review is on this site, maybe he can explain what he believes. Review005 doesn't like to use the word Trinity! because it has with the RCC connection that is further from the TRUTH! He doesn't like the phrase Jesus is God the Son but teaching Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus God the Son and Jesus the son of God mean the same thing! that was why the Jews tried to stone him for Blasphemy! claiming he was God.
(John 5:17-18) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10: 30-33 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Review005 believes Jesus is Divine. What do you think the word Divine or Divinity is?2. Chau: So you heard through Brad Lewis (2nd hand) that Chau believes in the Trinity. Chau, the Worker that was asked to leave the Work for a while. Another Worker from Far, Far away, that YOU never actually heard him teach this. You in fact probably read it on the "Anti-Truth" website of Brad Lewis - did you not? Regardless, I'm sure that one of the conditionos of letting him preach again was that he didn't preach the Trinity. ~~ I told you I talked to Chau face to face when he was in Portland about his belief/understanding of the Trinity. Chau is currently in the work. 3. The one other one you mention, Mark Huddle, that you call "Overseer" has been asked to step down as "Overseer". Dale Shultz has now taken his position as "Overseer". I'm not sure where Mark Huddle is now. It wasn't really explained why he was asked to step down, but from what I heard, there was something wrong that he was doing. Maybe this is what it was. ~~ What Mark Huddle has NEVER asked to step down as overseer! Dale Shultz is the overseer in Oregon. I believe you're mixed up here. Check your information again, JD. You have given NOTHING to indicate that ANY worker teaches, or preaches the Trinity today that we know of. Especially here in the USA. ~~ Can you tell me what is your understanding of the Trinity? You are right about Mark Huddle Nathan, I got that mixed up and will correct my post above. I was thinking of Harold Bennet. Bottom line, the "Trinity IS NOT being preached or taught by F&W" TODAY. No, I will not get in to a Trinity discussion with you so you can hit me with pages of Cut & paste. There was a thread started for that purpose just yesterday because you hijacked another thread (again) with the cut & paste This discussion is simply whether its taught by F&W TODAY.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2015 10:48:50 GMT -5
You are right about Mark Huddle Nathan, I got that mixed up and will correct my post above. I was thinking of Harold Bennet. Bottom line, the "Trinity IS NOT being preached or taught by F&W" TODAY. No, I will not get in to a Trinity discussion with you so you can hit me with pages of Cut & paste. This discussion is simply whether its taught by F&W TODAY. If you don't know what the Trinity doctrine and history is... then it's difficult to know what the workers believe or teaches. Majority of the workers today do NOT understand the doctrine of the Trinity or the history of it. However, there are the minority of the workers are teaching it God/Godhead is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like the shamrock! By the way we worship, sing, give praises, pray, give thanksgivings to these Three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit EVERY Sunday morning in our worship gathering! I'm pretty sure most F&W don't understand it because its not taught TODAY. You still have not given me any indication that it is. Not sure what this has to do with this discussion. Did you think that I was insinuating that they don't teach about the Father, Son, and HS? I said that they don't teach that they make up the "Godhead". They see these as 3 separate beings. They don't believe Jesus is God, or part of the Godhead. They believe that teaching (Trinity) to be false doctrine.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2015 11:13:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure most F&W don't understand it because its not taught TODAY. You still have not given me any indication that it is. You haven't told me what you believe the Trinity doctrine is. Do you know and understand what is the doctrine of the Trinity? The friends know more about the Trinity than you THINK.
Here is a poll was taken for the friends on TMBThe Trinity Poll on Truth Message board: 4/2013 Poll Options: You may select up to 4 answers in this poll. #1) I believe Jesus is the Son of God and God (14 votes, 33.3%) #2) I believe He is the Son of God but not God (7 votes, 16.6%) I am professing and answered # 1 (6 votes, 14.3%) I am professing and answered # 2. (4 votes, 9.5%) professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=20664Lets be very clear that the F&W that come on this board (TMB) are not representative of the typical F&W. Most that come here have crawled out of that little box we have been in for such a long time. The "Typical" F&W are still in the box.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2015 11:36:02 GMT -5
Lets be very clear that the F&W that come on this board (TMB) are not representative of the typical F&W. Most that come here have crawled out of that little box we have been in for such a long time. The "Typical" F&W are still in the box. I believe many friends are NOT "Typical" these days because of the Internet! It has educated the friends on many levels, subjects, things on/about the workers... They don't take the workers words, teachings as the gospel truth like they used to. Now, they examine, study and questions the workers teach and say and that is REALLY good for their souls and spiritual growth. I agree in regard to the younger generation. I would classify the "Younger Generation" as the ones that are in their 30s and below. Most that are older may have the internet, but they would never look at any site such as this, the TTT etc.. They also would not use any source other than the bible for teaching. This has been instilled into us, and continues to be preached. As a matter of fact, the real liberal ones, actually come out and admit that they read in another version of the bible than the King James version. No one I know uses anything but the King James during meeting though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 11:47:27 GMT -5
I agree in regard to the younger generation. I would classify the "Younger Generation" as the ones that are in their 30s and below. Most that are older may have the internet, but they would never look at any site such as this, the TTT etc.. They also would not use any source other than the bible for teaching. This has been instilled into us, and continues to be preached. As a matter of fact, the real liberal ones, actually come out and admit that they read in another version of the bible than the King James version. No one I know uses anything but the King James during meeting though. Perhaps this is an ungiven reason for why I was judged too wicked to be allowed any contact with friends, I DID study, read, even quote other versions and languages.
|
|
hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
|
Post by hberry on Jul 29, 2015 12:02:08 GMT -5
I believe many friends are NOT "Typical" these days because of the Internet! It has educated the friends on many levels, subjects, things on/about the workers... They don't take the workers words, teachings as the gospel truth like they used to. Now, they examine, study and questions the workers teach and say and that is REALLY good for their souls and spiritual growth. I agree in regard to the younger generation. I would classify the "Younger Generation" as the ones that are in their 30s and below. Most that are older may have the internet, but they would never look at any site such as this, the TTT etc.. They also would not use any source other than the bible for teaching. This has been instilled into us, and continues to be preached. As a matter of fact, the real liberal ones, actually come out and admit that they read in another version of the bible than the King James version. No one I know uses anything but the King James during meeting though. My Mom and Dad used their NIV at meeting for the last 20 years of their life. Likely the friends in our meeting thought they were radical. Our elder would not even read any other version than the KJV, even to study. However, no one ever said anything to them about it. I used the ESV, just to keep the unconventional family tradition alive.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 12:19:19 GMT -5
Once, upon happening to meet a couple I used to consider dear friends who had just moved to this area, I was asked outright why I no longer attended meetings. When I replied because I had been "excommunicated," I was told outright that never happened to anyone in "the truth" and was only a "catholic" term. Then, without even saying goodbye, they turned and walked away.
Having a written letter, in my possession, from before I took part in meeting by the very worker who told me they could call me "brother" knowing I would take that as being able to fellowship with them again, which forbade me attending any meetings or contact with "friends", it was to me, expelled or excommunicated. It was a "setup" from start to finish, and NOTHING I could do except kowtow to workers was acceptable. Yeah, I know, "forget about it."
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Jul 29, 2015 13:24:35 GMT -5
I think it is fair and accurate to make statement, the workers do NOT teach or preach the trinity - period. I think majority of members would support NOT teaching or preaching it, and no big movement in a different direction in sight. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2015 15:35:38 GMT -5
I think it is fair and accurate to make statement, the workers do NOT teach or preach the trinity - period. I think majority of members would support NOT teaching or preaching it, and no big movement in a different direction in sight. Alvin I believe the friends and some workers are start to wake up and understanding the true doctrine of the Trinity and the history of it. How can they be Anti-Trinity when the friends and workers worship, pray, singing hymns about God= The Father, Christ/the son, and Holy Spirit EVERY Sunday? Isn't that contradiction? Most 2x2 say they don't believe in the Trinity but they worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Every Sunday worship meeting around the world! Their words don't match with their actions. They don't know who are the Trinity is.
Something is WRONG with this picture, here. How can the workers and the friends are NOT teaching and believing in the Trinity... But they turn around worshipping, praying, give praises, and singing hymns to the Father, Christ/Son, and Holy Spirit Every Sunday morning worship meeting? Care to explain to us, please.I already answered this. They believe in them. They believe they are all separate beings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 16:49:01 GMT -5
JD you likely are quite right about many workers beliefs, and those who accept their word as truth.
Nonetheless, I knew MANY who believed differently, from George Walker, Sam Charlton, Jim Jardine, William Wier, Jack Carroll (and not just men workers) on down. Furthermore, when I was last in Sweden (1990) and speaking Swedish related that there were workers in the USA teaching the Lord is not God (as the Son) to a B&R elder, convention ground owner, he was absolutely and totally floored with shock that could be happening. So, you see, it was not universal among the group then that God does not/did not exist as Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It is no longer of consequence to me what any of them do or do not believe.
Personally, although I believe in my God as I do, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I see no need to identify that belief as The Trinity. Nonetheless, that is what I believe regarding my Spirit God making Himself flesh and blood and living, dying for all humanity. If others cannot see/understand that, what is that to me? I am to believe in, adhere to, live by my own belief in God, not another's.4
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 29, 2015 20:12:50 GMT -5
Nathan there is quite a difference between believing Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus is God the son or Jesus is God. I know when I was growing up in the group Jesus was a human, a perfect divine one, but he was not God.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 30, 2015 8:39:37 GMT -5
Nathan there is quite a difference between believing Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus is God the son or Jesus is God. I know when I was growing up in the group Jesus was a human, a perfect divine one, but he was not God. People think the word God refers ONLY to the Father which is NOT correct. The word God means Divine. The Father is Divine, Christ/Jesus is Divine, and the Holy Spirit is also Divine= Godhead.
Jesus is God the Son= the same as saying Jesus is the Son of God. God is Jesus Father, He has the same attribute, character of the Father. Christ/Almighty who incarnated in the Person, Jesus. Prior to Jesus incarnation He existed as God on the same Level as the Father.Snow is correct. I'll try to make it simple what the Workers teach and most believe. Again, this is not a Trinity study - please no cut and paste...simply an explanation of what is taught. We can go to the Trinity thread for your study. They teach that there is one being in charge of it all - God, who we also call Father. He has a son named Jesus. Jesus is not God, he is God's son (no - not "God the Son" - there is a big difference). He sent Jesus to the earth to show us how to live, and to sacrifice for our sins. He became a human when he came to earth. Because he was human, he was tempted, and It was possible that he could have sinned, but he had victory over all sin. There is one more being called the Holy Spirit that he also sent to earth to guide us. Both Jesus, and the HS are directed and are obedient to God (Jesus's Father). Thats it.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jul 30, 2015 10:09:07 GMT -5
Snow is correct. I'll try to make it simple what the Workers teach and most believe. Again, this is not a Trinity study - please no cut and paste...simply an explanation of what is taught. We can go to the Trinity thread for your study. They teach that there is one being in charge of it all - God, who we also call Father. He has a son named Jesus. Jesus is not God, he is God's son (no - not "God the Son" - there is a big difference). He sent Jesus to the earth to show us how to live, and to sacrifice for our sins. He became a human when he came to earth. Because he was human, he was tempted, and It was possible that he could have sinned, but he had victory over all sin. There is one more being called the Holy Spirit that he also sent to earth to guide us. Both Jesus, and the HS are directed and are obedient to God (Jesus's Father). Thats it. Why do you think the Jews in his day wanted to Stone Jesus? It was for being BLASPHEMY or Blasphemer! A man claimed to be God. He was telling them He was the I AM that I AM" who revealed Himself to Moses as God in Exodus chapter 3.
The Oneness Pentecostals believe God is ONE... Father, Christ/Son, and Holy Spirit. No, I don't believe that God is ONE being, but they are separated individual Spirits... 1) The Father, 2) Christ/Son and 3) Holy are ONE in Unity, ONE in harmony, and ONE in agreement with each other. All three are part of God which made up the Godhead.
The Father is the Most High God. Christ/Son is the I AM that I AM Almighty God. The Alpha and the Omega God. The Holy Spirit is God.
Like I told you... There are MANY beliefs out there what people THINK the Trinity doctrine is which are NOT incorrect. It seems you believe in the Oneness Pentecostal... God is ONE BEING... God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The word God refers ONLY to the Father.
Here you go, arguing the Trinity doctrine again. I'm not arguing any doctrine. I'm explaining to you WHAT the Workers are teaching TODAY, and what the majority of the Friends believe.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 31, 2015 1:37:12 GMT -5
Snow is correct. I'll try to make it simple what the Workers teach and most believe. Again, this is not a Trinity study - please no cut and paste...simply an explanation of what is taught. We can go to the Trinity thread for your study. They teach that there is one being in charge of it all - God, who we also call Father. He has a son named Jesus. Jesus is not God, he is God's son (no - not "God the Son" - there is a big difference). He sent Jesus to the earth to show us how to live, and to sacrifice for our sins. He became a human when he came to earth. Because he was human, he was tempted, and It was possible that he could have sinned, but he had victory over all sin. There is one more being called the Holy Spirit that he also sent to earth to guide us. Both Jesus, and the HS are directed and are obedient to God (Jesus's Father). Thats it. Why do you think the Jews in his day wanted to Stone Jesus? It was for being BLASPHEMY or Blasphemer! A man claimed to be God. In John chapter 8 Jesus was telling the Jews, He was the I AM that I AM" who revealed Himself to Moses as God in Exodus chapter 3. Jesus said, Before Abraham was born I existed.... They replied, "How can that be, you're NOT yet 50 yrs old, and you have seen Abraham?" You Blasphemer! According to the Old Testament law the people should stone any man to death for saying he is God. Jesus was TELLING the Jews in his days the TRUTH and they didn't believe HIM..... just like Most of the people of today!
The Oneness Pentecostals believe God is ONE... Father, Christ/Son, and Holy Spirit. No, I don't believe that God is ONE being, but they are separated individual Spirits... 1) The Father, 2) Christ/Son and 3) Holy are ONE in Unity, ONE in harmony, and ONE in agreement with each other. All three are part of God which made up the Godhead.
The Father is the Most High God. Christ/Son is the I AM that I AM Almighty God. The Alpha and the Omega God. The Holy Spirit is God.
Like I told you... There are MANY beliefs out there what people THINK the Trinity doctrine is which are NOT Correct. It seems you believe in the Oneness Pentecostal... God is ONE BEING... God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The word God refers ONLY to the Father.
Jesus clearly says he's the son of God correcting them when they claim he said he's God (below) John 10 For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Also John 19 the Jewish leaders say it's because he called himself the son of God John 19: The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. Jesus never once declared himself as God, not once! He's never said I am God the son. Nothing! Gods spirit was with him, in full power because he never sinned! And then this (below) clearly to me shows God is the God of Jesus also, and Jesus is the son of God not God the son. Below when the Jewish leaders tried to say he makes himself equal with God by calling himself the son, Jesus corrected them saying he can't do anything without the father. John 5 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Thereafter the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth And further down in the same chapter, But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. At the tomb of Lazarus Jesus prayed to God and said (below) Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. If Jesus was Gods equal, he wouldn't have to say this. God is the God of Jesus also, they are not equal! And finally, ( for now )from the mouth of Jesus: I go to my father and your father, my God and your God!
|
|