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Post by rational on Jul 10, 2015 23:16:45 GMT -5
Rat, to answer your question I've been closely involved in a couple of cases on both sides. Closely involved on the investigative side or the treatment side of the situation? No, I don't think I am. I was addressing the fact that there are well known cases where the 'therapy' used to help the victims did not help the victims and harmed innocent people. In many such cases the therapy was based on the idea that the young children, some as young as 2/9, had been traumatized by the experience and treated the victim as such. Again, trying to define all of the possibly sexual abuses of children as "CSA" is a problem.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2015 6:30:40 GMT -5
You're missing the fact that a lot of CSA is not reported until the child has become an adult. No, I don't think I am. I was addressing the fact that there are well known cases where the 'therapy' used to help the victims did not help the victims and harmed innocent people. In many such cases the therapy was based on the idea that the young children, some as young as 2/9, had been traumatized by the experience and treated the victim as such. In the same way, there are well documented cases of innocent folks being incarcerated on murder convictions. Should that define how murder cases are treated? I don't think so.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2015 6:36:14 GMT -5
Again, trying to define all of the possibly sexual abuses of children as "CSA" is a problem. I don't think so. It's you who tries to extend the scope of our discussion towards the peripheral more minor abuse. For the purposes of TMB discussion, let's just define CSA as physical.
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Post by rational on Jul 11, 2015 22:58:49 GMT -5
In the same way, there are well documented cases of innocent folks being incarcerated on murder convictions. Should that define how murder cases are treated? I don't think so. Of course it should. If the was people are being 'treated' is resulting in more damage than help something needs to change. In that list of cases I posted, about 20, there was no abuse and innocent people were harmed just because of the hysteria. If the way murders are being investigated and the way trials are being conducted results in wrongful convictions then something needs to be done. Jumping immediately to treating children who have been sexually molested as though they have suffered trauma is not a good approach when only a small percentage say the event was traumatic.
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Post by Lee on Jul 11, 2015 23:10:07 GMT -5
I think if we put all theology in the "head knowledge" category we'd have to apply that to any research or study. Of course, some people think all study/research is head knowledge Some of Paul's writings are fairly complex too but they are very weighty matters and we are encouraged to work through them and apply them. What is at issue is Lee's assertion that Jesus would have endorsed calling people aa cult using a theological definition of the term. That is, whether or not they fit in to Bebbington's quadrilateral, according to one researcher, or whether they accept the Chalcedonian creed, Trinitarian Christology, according to others. I believe I am well grounded in saying that none of Jesus criticisms of groups are based on any such thing. Rather, they are based on weightier matters such as mercy, judgement and especially faith. Faith and belief are somewhat different things, wouldn't you say? They're inextricably related. Any group that presumes to be concerned with ultimate issues and is not cruci-centric is a cult.
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Post by rational on Jul 11, 2015 23:41:10 GMT -5
Again, trying to define all of the possibly sexual abuses of children as "CSA" is a problem. I don't think so. It's you who tries to extend the scope of our discussion towards the peripheral more minor abuse. It is not extending anything. CSA is everything from showing children pornography, to exposing yourself to a child, to forceful penetration. I believe it is you who is trying to limit the scope of the term "CSA" to fit into your perception of the event. Can any incident of CSA be considered minor? Since it has been widely agreed that the actual event is very often not traumatic isn't it possible that the trauma that the victim experiences, far removed from the event, could be caused by, as you term them, minor abuse? Is there 'minor abuse'? And by physical do you mean frottage? Or forceful penetration? Or touching? Kissing? Having a child sit on the offender's lap? Oral stimulation? Fingering? Unwanted hugging? Mutual stimulation? These, and more, all are considered physical contact and constitute sexual abuse. So you agree that the simple definition of CSA is too broad. Simply saying 'physical' is also too broad. Until these events can be discussed with specific details rather than vague references it is difficult to address the problem.
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Post by fixit on Jul 12, 2015 5:48:32 GMT -5
I don't think so. It's you who tries to extend the scope of our discussion towards the peripheral more minor abuse. It is not extending anything. CSA is everything from showing children pornography, to exposing yourself to a child, to forceful penetration. I believe it is you who is trying to limit the scope of the term "CSA" to fit into your perception of the event. Can any incident of CSA be considered minor? Since it has been widely agreed that the actual event is very often not traumatic isn't it possible that the trauma that the victim experiences, far removed from the event, could be caused by, as you term them, minor abuse? Is there 'minor abuse'? And by physical do you mean frottage? Or forceful penetration? Or touching? Kissing? Having a child sit on the offender's lap? Oral stimulation? Fingering? Unwanted hugging? Mutual stimulation? These, and more, all are considered physical contact and constitute sexual abuse. So you agree that the simple definition of CSA is too broad. Simply saying 'physical' is also too broad. Until these events can be discussed with specific details rather than vague references it is difficult to address the problem. Again, trying to define all of the possibly sexual abuses of children as "CSA" is a problem. It's you who has the problem with the definition of CSA. When you get it sorted in your own mind, and see CSA as something more than "hysteria", then we might be able to hold an intelligent discussion.
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Post by rational on Jul 12, 2015 10:08:00 GMT -5
It's you who has the problem with the definition of CSA. When you get it sorted in your own mind, and see CSA as something more than "hysteria", then we might be able to hold an intelligent discussion. I do see CSA as more than hysteria. I worked with the victims and the offenders for a a number of years, Yes, I do have a problem with all cases of CSA, from 'flashing' to rape with a foreign object, being grouped into the same category. I do have a problem when there are documented cases of more than 20 cases nationwide where the charges of abuse was hysteria yet people like you seemingly refuse to believe that not all cases of reported CSA are as they seem. Do you have any data to explain, for example, how the child that testified that she was sodomized with a 12 inch butcher knife did not suffer any physical effects? Just reading the small slice of people reporting/commenting on this message board shows how much people's emotions figure into their evaluation of these events. What I find difficult to understand is when multiple independent research teams look at over 60 research papers from multiple countries, involving data obtained from 40,000+ individuals who claimed CSA and came to the conclusion that always associating CSA with "intense, pervasive harm and long-term maladjustment" was wrong, how that studies/data is simply discarded because it does not support the common belief. You said have been involved with a couple of cases. Some of us, me for example, have worked with between 30-60 cases a year for over 5 years. My function was to teach them and evaluate how well they could be reintegrated into the general population. In this position I was privy to the conclusions of their therapy and evaluations as well as the results of the criminal investigation of the cases. I have no reason to make up or support research/statistics that were counter to what I have seen. If you think that all CSA cases that involve physical contact can be grouped together you need to do more research. If you think hysteria on the part of the investigators, therapists, guardians, etc. does not play a role in evaluating what actually took place you probably need to rethink that as well. I can see that you are passionate about this issue. But sometimes passion gets in the way and has a way of distorting what is perceived as reality. Until these cases can be handled in a realistic and non-emotional manner victims will continue to suffer, some at the hands of those trying to help.
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Post by fixit on Jul 12, 2015 16:42:42 GMT -5
It's you who has the problem with the definition of CSA. When you get it sorted in your own mind, and see CSA as something more than "hysteria", then we might be able to hold an intelligent discussion. I do have a problem when there are documented cases of more than 20 cases nationwide where the charges of abuse was hysteria yet people like you seemingly refuse to believe that not all cases of reported CSA are as they seem. Do you have any data to explain, for example, how the child that testified that she was sodomized with a 12 inch butcher knife did not suffer any physical effects? Wow. More than 20 cases nationwide. That's a drop in the ocean. Can't you do better than that?
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Post by magpie on Jul 13, 2015 1:02:21 GMT -5
HEY FIXIT. You cannot fixit. Born with the mental disorder of paedophilia,you need to study it. Then think of all us victims worldwide of 2x2s unbiblical,unaturally demanded celibate ministry,and all others worldwide effected by the cruel criminal act of CSA. Back to the Irvinite ministry,family breakdowns,mental illness,loss of faith,SUICIDES,rejection all by probucts of Criminal Paedopliles amongst the workers.. In the study you will find Paedophiles are mostly hetrosexual (does include to a lesser extent homosexual/lesbians),they beside a normal urge have a greater uncurable,(UNCURABLE)uncontrolable urge towards animals and pre pubesant children. Homo/Lesbo more towards post pubesant teens plus. Medication,councilling,strong Pastoring may have a restraining effect on the mental urge,but it remaind as with many mental disorders and illnesses to the grave. Next read 1 corinthians ch 9,verses 5&6,then,you will see what we say,look then at other unatural celibate ministries,no different? Then read Ephesians ch 4,verses 11& 12,them the 4x following verses,amongst among that you will see a Pastor has a place in Gods community to help a struggling sheep inflicted with such a horrible disorder as this subject speaks of,as they can also help the victims of 2x2 and otherCSA perpetraters, with Gods Blessing and guidence.
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Post by fixit on Jul 13, 2015 1:18:22 GMT -5
HEY FIXIT. You cannot fixit. Born with the mental disorder of paedophilia,you need to study it. Then think of all us victims worldwide of 2x2s unbiblical,unaturally demanded celibate ministry,and all others worldwide effected by the cruel criminal act of CSA. Back to the Irvinite ministry,family breakdowns,mental illness,loss of faith,SUICIDES,rejection all by probucts of Criminal Paedopliles amongst the workers.. In the study you will find Paedophiles are mostly hetrosexual (does include to a lesser extent homosexual/lesbians),they beside a normal urge have a greater uncurable,(UNCURABLE)uncontrolable urge towards animals and pre pubesant children. Homo/Lesbo more towards post pubesant teens plus. Medication,councilling,strong Pastoring may have a restraining effect on the mental urge,but it remaind as with many mental disorders and illnesses to the grave. Next read 1 corinthians ch 9,verses 5&6,then,you will see what we say,look then at other unatural celibate ministries,no different? Then read Ephesians ch 4,verses 11& 12,them the 4x following verses,amongst among that you will see a Pastor has a place in Gods community to help a struggling sheep inflicted with such a horrible disorder as this subject speaks of,as they can also help the victims of 2x2 and otherCSA perpetraters, with Gods Blessing and guidence. Magpie, I will at least try to fix some of the ignorance out there. Folks on this board seem to be wringing their hands over CSA "hysteria", emotional response, innocent people harmed by false accusations, "recovered memories", etc.
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Post by rational on Jul 13, 2015 2:28:08 GMT -5
I do have a problem when there are documented cases of more than 20 cases nationwide where the charges of abuse was hysteria yet people like you seemingly refuse to believe that not all cases of reported CSA are as they seem. Do you have any data to explain, for example, how the child that testified that she was sodomized with a 12 inch butcher knife did not suffer any physical effects? Wow. More than 20 cases nationwide. That's a drop in the ocean. Can't you do better than that? I provided 20 examples of how hysteria over CAS resulted in the the false conviction and imprisonment of innocent people and this is your response? At no time did I indicate that these were the only cases. Certainly 20 is not a large number but they are examples of what happens when rational behavior is replaced by the hysteria of moral panic. In the one case with which I am most familiar, all of the evidence was shown to be either false or very questionable and the falsely convicted individuals, at least the ones who had not died in prison during the 8+ years, were released. Once the hysteria died down the court issued its findings, including: In today's decision, this Court does not suggest that the serious errors committed in the investigation of the defendant were intentionally done in bad faith. Rather, overzealous and inadequately trained investigators, perhaps unaware of the grave dangers of using improper interviewing and investigative techniques, questioned these children and their parents in a climate of panic, if not hysteria, creating a highly prejudicial and
[begin page 7]
irreparable set of mistakes. These grave errors led to the testimony of the children being forever tainted. The only allegations made by the child witnesses occurred after they were subjected to the admittedly suggestive interviews, and investigative techniques, as well as inappropriate - even if understandable - influence by their families. Moreover, neither behavioral symptoms nor physical evidence which may be consistent with child sexual abuse were revealed until after the children and their families were subjected to these improper interviewing and investigative techniques. These alleged symptoms were only discussed after the families were overwhelmed by the panic, hysteria and media attention that snowballed this case into national headlines and widespread concern about ritualistic sexual abuse of children.
id3426.securedata.net/cyberussr/hcunn/witch/bd-2.html
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Post by rational on Jul 13, 2015 2:52:21 GMT -5
Magpie, I will at least try to fix some of the ignorance out there. Folks on this board seem to be wringing their hands over CSA "hysteria", emotional response, innocent people harmed by false accusations, "recovered memories", etc. Will you fix it by actually presenting evidence to show that recovered memories do not suffer from false memory syndrome? That court cases are not distorted by the hysteria surrounding CSA cases? Or will you argue that it is no problem is a few innocent people have their lives destroyed in the witch hunt because ... well, who knows what reason you will come up with. I assume you are pointing to me as the hand winger. If you have an accusation to make be direct. If you have evidence to support your case then present it.
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Post by fixit on Jul 13, 2015 2:54:18 GMT -5
Wow. More than 20 cases nationwide. That's a drop in the ocean. Can't you do better than that? I provided 20 examples of how hysteria over CAS resulted in the the false conviction and imprisonment of innocent people and this is your response? At no time did I indicate that these were the only cases. Certainly 20 is not a large number but they are examples of what happens when rational behavior is replaced by the hysteria of moral panic. In the one case with which I am most familiar, all of the evidence was shown to be either false or very questionable and the falsely convicted individuals, at least the ones who had not died in prison during the 8+ years, were released. Once the hysteria died down the court issued its findings, including: In today's decision, this Court does not suggest that the serious errors committed in the investigation of the defendant were intentionally done in bad faith. Rather, overzealous and inadequately trained investigators, perhaps unaware of the grave dangers of using improper interviewing and investigative techniques, questioned these children and their parents in a climate of panic, if not hysteria, creating a highly prejudicial and
[begin page 7]
irreparable set of mistakes. These grave errors led to the testimony of the children being forever tainted. The only allegations made by the child witnesses occurred after they were subjected to the admittedly suggestive interviews, and investigative techniques, as well as inappropriate - even if understandable - influence by their families. Moreover, neither behavioral symptoms nor physical evidence which may be consistent with child sexual abuse were revealed until after the children and their families were subjected to these improper interviewing and investigative techniques. These alleged symptoms were only discussed after the families were overwhelmed by the panic, hysteria and media attention that snowballed this case into national headlines and widespread concern about ritualistic sexual abuse of children.
id3426.securedata.net/cyberussr/hcunn/witch/bd-2.htmlWhy are you telling us this? 1. You think some of us on TMB are in panic and hysterical, or 2. You think 20 false accusations out of many thousands of CSA cases is a huge deal, or 3. Some other reason that is important to you? Of the allegations determined to be false, only a small portion originated with the child, the studies showed; most false allegations originated with an adult bringing the accusations on behalf of a child, and of those, a large majority occurred in the context of divorce and child-custody battles.Take a look at the stats for rape: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rapeRapeMain article: False accusation of rape The statistics on false accusations of rape vary widely, from 2% to Eugene Kanin's (1994) figure of 41%, which derived from a case study of a police agency in a metropolitan city in the Midwest. John Bancroft states that a search of the literature on false rape reports reveals that Kanin's figure of 41% false rape reports is regarded as unusually high. FBI statistics for the annual rate of false reporting of forcible assault across the country have been a consistent 8%.[5] A study from the UK found that of the approximately 14,500 cases of rape reported in 2005/2006 9% were classified as false allegations.[6] Child abuseMain article: False accusations of child sexual abuse A false allegation of child sexual abuse is an accusation that a person committed one or more acts of child sexual abuse when in reality there was no perpetration of abuse by the accused person as alleged. Such accusations can be brought by the victim, or by another person on the alleged victim's behalf. Studies of child abuse allegations suggest that the overall rate of false accusation is under 10%, as approximated based on multiple studies.[1][7][8][9] Of the allegations determined to be false, only a small portion originated with the child, the studies showed; most false allegations originated with an adult bringing the accusations on behalf of a child, and of those, a large majority occurred in the context of divorce and child-custody battles.[1][10]
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Post by rational on Jul 13, 2015 3:30:37 GMT -5
Why are you telling us this? 1. You think some of us on TMB are in panic and hysterical, or Yes. No to this one. It is because you keep misrepresenting these 20 examples as the total number of cases where this applies. As I said - they were examples not the sum of this type of error. Yes. I think people need to consider the emotional aspect of CSA and not simply dismiss the possibility that it might cause distortion. This is true. How often does child abuse involve rape? I agree. Intentionally false reports is less than 10%. A small number unless you are in that 10% group. But the cases fueled by panic are not intentionally false. They fall into the unsubstantiated category. That usually is in the 50% range. Many of the cases in the examples I cited would have been in this group. [/quote]
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Post by fixit on Jul 13, 2015 15:04:05 GMT -5
Intentionally false reports is less than 10%. A small number unless you are in that 10% group. But the cases fueled by panic are not intentionally false. They fall into the unsubstantiated category. That usually is in the 50% range. Many of the cases in the examples I cited would have been in this group. You are right, of course. There are usually not enough witnesses to substantiate CSA.
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Post by fixit on Jul 13, 2015 17:43:36 GMT -5
It's attitudes like those expressed above that make Child Sexual Abuse so difficult to deal with, and prevent victims from coming forward...
If this daughter has no evidence to prove that her accusations are true, she should not have claimed that she was raped by her father and she should not have taken him to the court.
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Post by rational on Jul 13, 2015 21:33:43 GMT -5
Intentionally false reports is less than 10%. A small number unless you are in that 10% group. But the cases fueled by panic are not intentionally false. They fall into the unsubstantiated category. That usually is in the 50% range. Many of the cases in the examples I cited would have been in this group. You are right, of course. There are usually not enough witnesses to substantiate CSA. Often because of the long delay in reporting. I guess this is something to keep in mind if and when the cases are tried under a different legal system.
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Post by fixit on Jul 13, 2015 21:53:47 GMT -5
Thankfully, in Western countries we've developed a much fairer and humane legal system than the hopelessly backward Sharia law.
In spite of the dinosaurs who come up with all the reasons why it won't work, our society is making progress with the handling of CSA.
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Post by rational on Jul 13, 2015 23:00:01 GMT -5
It's attitudes like those expressed above that make Child Sexual Abuse so difficult to deal with, and prevent victims from coming forward... If this daughter has no evidence to prove that her accusations are true, she should not have claimed that she was raped by her father and she should not have taken him to the court.It certainly does under Islamic law.
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Post by xna on Jul 15, 2015 19:23:26 GMT -5
Someone needs to tell Google. Attachments:
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Post by magpie on Jul 15, 2015 20:25:14 GMT -5
This was written as ,"10 reasons why the friends group are not a cult". I think that has been disproven,just to promote exclusivism alone is a heresy (cultish)... Now someone sujested that,"In western countries we have developed a fairer system". Yes for prosecuting lawyers,have you seen how a clever lawyer can abso;utly destroy a victim,especially a young damaged person.That is the freedom of supposed democracy.It is more important to concentrate on the real number of victims,to many the 2x2scsa victims. Now back to "Cult?", who has studied the NICENE CREED as used by "many" christian denominations. Written in 325 AD and in its current final form in 381 AD. Now you will see it is ECUMENICAL,also the word CATHOLIC is used "BUT", that means "UNIVERSAL". If you are speaking of people of the Catholic Church, they are "ROMAN CATHOLICS"= "ROMAN UNIVERSAL CHURCH".So dont let fear of the word catholic taint the "NICENE CREED's" use of the word. If you ask 12 workers the meaning of important scripture verses (EG.Ephesians 4,v/se 11/12) you would get up to 12 different answers. Try it,but have a witness,if your question upsets them,you are placed on the grape vine and fed cold shoulder. Could you imagine the diverse interpretations and overall mess if 20 Workers worldwide were asked to draft a basis of belief document (CREED). Now remember "Cult or not a Cult",back to you all,thanks for all imputs. Now debate is healthy,the last year at the Hebrew school Jesus would have attended,after learning to recite the total Hebrew Bible,that last year majored on debating.Sort of forunner to our Christian based schools and Bible colleges. Of course in exclusivism we were,you are, taught these were schools of the evil false religions.
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