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Post by magpie on Jun 27, 2015 17:28:36 GMT -5
Greg-The teacher has more responsability before God than the student who swallows tthese ruthless closed judgemental words. If they dont agree(because he implicates you all) a huge deputation must go instantly and have him dismissed.His doctorine has placed a limit on Gods power,grace,redemption,love,compassion,instructions,teachings,the Holy Spirit and most of all God as the Judge of all things.
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Post by Greg on Jun 27, 2015 17:35:39 GMT -5
Greg-The teacher has more responsability before God than the student who swallows tthese ruthless closed judgemental words. If they dont agree(because he implicates you all) a huge deputation must go instantly and have him dismissed.His doctorine has placed a limit on Gods power,grace,redemption,love,compassion,instructions,teachings,the Holy Spirit and most of all God as the Judge of all things. I do not know why you are addressing me.
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Post by blacksheep on Jun 27, 2015 18:15:09 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Jun 27, 2015 18:32:46 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jun 27, 2015 19:27:49 GMT -5
Exclusivsm is a CULT. .Go to "worker friend and ex board" site and read the "Letter of Concern",a judgement written by "Leroy Lerwick". Read "ALL" the following comments as one put it He has in his own words condemned "Seven Billion to Hell" . A judgemental ignorant teaching as it's founder William Irvine. Compassionless selfrightousness. Do you support such as Leroy's letter,if you do you are supporting condemning "Seven Billion" to an eternity in "Hell",you are then of the judgemental "Secret Sect",Christian Conventions (as registered here),"CULT". If exclusivism is a cult, then most Christians are in a cult. Where do most Christians expect the seven billion people on earth to spend eternity? If they are not a born again Christian, Hell.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 5:45:54 GMT -5
WhatHat wrote: Mary, of course I am comparing to extreme groups and extreme situations. That's what a cult is, extreme. As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion. The things you dislike, other people like. Like abuse there are varying degrees of behaviour. For example not all cults promote suicide. Like abuse, cults are on a sliding scale. Mild to severe. Do you think a group must be isolated like the Amish in order to be a cult? You could say these are not cults.
The things I have mentioned are the reason many people leave. I've not heard of a mild cult before. That would be like rogue Girl Guides or something? Sorry, must not make jokes with cross people about. Not you. Yes, isolation is a common feature of cults, like the Amish. I don't know about the Amish but I do know about Old Order Mennonites. Control issues among the Old Order Mennonites are far, far worse than the friends because they are very strict, the exit path is difficult and shunning is severe. No, they're not a cult.
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Post by Greg on Jun 28, 2015 6:09:11 GMT -5
cult noun, often attributive \ˈkəlt\ : a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous : a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much : a small group of very devoted supporters or fans - source: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cultCult In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices.[1] However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, thus making a precise definition problematic. The word "cult" was originally used not to describe a group of religionists, but for the act of worship or religious ceremony. While the literal sense of the word in English is still in use, a derived sense of "excessive devotion" arose in the 19th century. - snips from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
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Post by Greg on Jun 28, 2015 6:38:00 GMT -5
Ten reasons why some think the friends and workers are a cult. 1 - They are one not of the friends and workers. 2 - They wish they were not one of the friends and workers. 3 - They do not like the friends and workers. 4 - They just do not think they are. 5 - They do not like the meeting in the home. 6 - They do not like convention. 7 - They do not like the form of ministry. 8 - They do not like the low financial cost of belonging. 9 - They really, really do not like the friends and workers. 10 - They really, really do not wish they could be one of the friends and workers. 11 - I do not like green eggs and ham. That's far below your usual calibre of post, Greg. I just read points 1-10. Besides points 4 and 8 being wrong, I think the remaining of 1-10 are fairly accurate. Point 4 probably should read as "They just think they are." Yet one could spin #4 to mean "They just do not think they are, they really believe that." I do not understand why What would post what he did and then include "That's far below your usual calibre of post, Greg." It's What's post.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 8:33:36 GMT -5
That's far below your usual calibre of post, Greg. I just read points 1-10. Besides points 4 and 8 being wrong, I think the remaining of 1-10 are fairly accurate. Point 4 probably should read as "They just think they are." Yet one could spin #4 to mean "They just do not think they are, they really believe that." I do not understand why What would post what he did and then include "That's far below your usual calibre of post, Greg." It's What's post. LOL. Thanks for showing a good spirit. You also caught me at a bad moment. It seems that some posters can't handle anything good said about the friends and when they can't deal with the message begin to cast aspersions upon the poster. I felt like that was the trend of the thread at that point. Regarding the way I look at our time with the friends. I bumped into an ex- recently that I once knew who was into his new church and he assumed erroneously that I was "born again" outside the friends. (God has been working with me since I was young). And he was all over the 'cult' he had left. And possibly he had dealt with some mean stuff when he left, I don't know. But the years I knew him were happy years, so why not take that in. Why reprocess the past in such a negative way? Remember the good.
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Post by Greg on Jun 28, 2015 9:34:42 GMT -5
I just read points 1-10. Besides points 4 and 8 being wrong, I think the remaining of 1-10 are fairly accurate. Point 4 probably should read as "They just think they are." Yet one could spin #4 to mean "They just do not think they are, they really believe that." I do not understand why What would post what he did and then include "That's far below your usual calibre of post, Greg." It's What's post. LOL. Thanks for showing a good spirit. You also caught me at a bad moment. It seems that some posters can't handle anything good said about the friends and when they can't deal with the message begin to cast aspersions upon the poster. I felt like that was the trend of the thread at that point. Regarding the way I look at our time with the friends. I bumped into an ex- recently that I once knew who was into his new church and he assumed erroneously that I was "born again" outside the friends. (God has been working with me since I was young). And he was all over the 'cult' he had left. And possibly he had dealt with some mean stuff when he left, I don't know. But the years I knew him were happy years, so why not take that in. Why reprocess the past in such a negative way? Remember the good. Just as you seem to automatically remember the good and seem to forget the bad, others are the opposite. Just the way we are. Someone might attempt to get you to dwell on the negative, but you won't, possibly you can't or barely could if you really tried. The same would be similar for those that dwell on the negative and dismiss the positive, the good. Just the way we are . . . in both cases. Hard to know what has really happened to and with people and what amount of mental, physical, and emotional pain has been suffered. And hard to know the capabilities of dealing with the negatives, the pain. People are different. we know that. Take for example a person makes a mistake and a parent or supervisor or boss gives a reaction. What might that reaction be? A little chuckle (if no injury) and "Whoa, you don't wanna do that again. Live and learn" or "Hey, what the ---- are you doing? What were you thinking? Were you thinking?!" I think for some that suffered in the fellowship, there was no doubt that another in the church who could have and would have helped. A worker defending the wronged when one of the friends caused harm. Or an overseer helping when a staff worker did wrong or a final authority when an overseer was negligent. But when no help comes or cries are dismissed or people are told to be quiet, easy to think there is partiality and that "the way" is being protected over the needs of the hurt individual.
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Post by blacksheep on Jun 28, 2015 14:50:40 GMT -5
A person who comes across the F&Ws as an adult, and decides to join for a while and then later decides to leave can never fully grasp what its like to have been born and raised within the fellowship. Different experiences entirely.
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Post by fixit on Jun 28, 2015 16:00:59 GMT -5
A person who comes across the F&Ws as an adult, and decides to join for a while and then later decides to leave can never fully grasp what its like to have been born and raised within the fellowship. Different experiences entirely. WH raised his children in the fellowship, so will have some understanding. However, the experience varies widely.
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Post by blacksheep on Jun 28, 2015 16:42:01 GMT -5
WH raised his children in the fellowship, so will have some understanding. However, the experience varies widely. He will have SOME understanding (small)......yes, the experience varies WIDELY: between the parent doing the raising and the child being raised.
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Post by magpie on Jun 28, 2015 17:09:20 GMT -5
SOMEONE SAID, "IF THEY ARE NOT A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN HELL". So you agree with Leroy Lerwick? The women and children starving,dying in refugee campe annd the women and children watching their husbands,sons and brothers beheaded in Syria by I.S. before being brutally raped and then shot God will say to them "I know you not". The CSA victims worldwide abused by Workers,leave or ostracised for speaking out to loud,(you know? the unwillings and trouble maker brandeds and gossip subjects),hurt disillusioned and bitter ,do you think God wiil desert them,He knows why,especially as many victims have developed mental illnesses (bitter 2x2s will say I told you so,see he/she are nuts) even many have suicided. As one of many Worker CSA victims to sit and listen to the Unholy perpetraters at convention,that sure is salt in open wounds,but God led me into a wonderfull ecumenical fellowship.God forgive you for that statement,He can handle the judgement ,so leave it to Him.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 17:15:16 GMT -5
SOMEONE SAID, "IF THEY ARE NOT A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN HELL". So you agree with Leroy Lerwick? The women and children starving,dying in refugee campe annd the women and children watching their husbands,sons and brothers beheaded in Syria by I.S. before being brutally raped and then shot God will say to them "I know you not". The CSA victims worldwide abused by Workers,leave or ostracised for speaking out to loud,(you know? the unwillings and trouble maker brandeds and gossip subjects),hurt disillusioned and bitter ,do you think God wiil desert them,He knows why,especially as many victims have developed mental illnesses (bitter 2x2s will say I told you so,see he/she are nuts) even many have suicided. As one of many Worker CSA victims to sit and listen to the Unholy perpetraters at convention,that sure is salt in open wounds,but God led me into a wonderfull ecumenical fellowship.God forgive you for that statement,He can handle the judgement ,so leave it to Him. that's the tragedy of not knowing God and suffering its all in vain without God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and I am speaking about unbelievers here not believers...
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Post by Greg on Jun 28, 2015 17:22:42 GMT -5
SOMEONE SAID, "IF THEY ARE NOT A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN HELL". So you agree with Leroy Lerwick? The women and children starving,dying in refugee campe annd the women and children watching their husbands,sons and brothers beheaded in Syria by I.S. before being brutally raped and then shot God will say to them "I know you not". The CSA victims worldwide abused by Workers,leave or ostracised for speaking out to loud,(you know? the unwillings and trouble maker brandeds and gossip subjects),hurt disillusioned and bitter ,do you think God wiil desert them,He knows why,especially as many victims have developed mental illnesses (bitter 2x2s will say I told you so,see he/she are nuts) even many have suicided. As one of many Worker CSA victims to sit and listen to the Unholy perpetraters at convention,that sure is salt in open wounds,but God led me into a wonderfull ecumenical fellowship.God forgive you for that statement,He can handle the judgement ,so leave it to Him. Previously in this thread. Question: Where do most Christians expect the seven billion people on earth to spend eternity? Answer: If they are not a born again Christian, Hell.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 17:32:05 GMT -5
A person who comes across the F&Ws as an adult, and decides to join for a while and then later decides to leave can never fully grasp what its like to have been born and raised within the fellowship. Different experiences entirely. And vice versa, it would seem.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 17:33:50 GMT -5
A person who comes across the F&Ws as an adult, and decides to join for a while and then later decides to leave can never fully grasp what its like to have been born and raised within the fellowship. Different experiences entirely. WH raised his children in the fellowship, so will have some understanding. However, the experience varies widely. Yes, and their experience was different than mine. We talk about it, and they view their experience as positive, but not equally so. Three different kids (with spouses makes six); three different views.
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Post by Mary on Jun 28, 2015 17:41:33 GMT -5
Having parents not raised in the fellowship is not the same as having parents raised in it. Parents like WhatHat have different views of the fellowship and that will have an effect on their children unlike those whose parents have been raised in it. It takes a couple of generations to 'professing proof' people.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 17:43:38 GMT -5
WH raised his children in the fellowship, so will have some understanding. However, the experience varies widely. He will have SOME understanding (small)......yes, the experience varies WIDELY: between the parent doing the raising and the child being raised. Oh, I have a "small" understanding of my children. Thanks for that. The negative person I mentioned previously in my post came into the fellowship around the same age and time as I did, and had a completely opposite point of view to mine. And you've seen my post on my kids. I don't think you can generalise B&R versus coming in as an adult. Posters who hate the friends like to discredit my views by saying I wasn't B&R, but never offer any critique of the views themselves. I believe we had a positive experience because we came in with a positive attitude. Had I had that in the Reformed church I might well have had a good experience there too, but I was younger and less mature and while my views were not invalid, attitude greatly shaped those negative views.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 17:44:59 GMT -5
I believe what hat wouldn't have left the 2x2 fellowship by his own freewill, if his wife had decided to stay... He left because he wanted to keep his family intact, staying together. In his heart he still has a great respect for the 2x2 fellowship truth and way in Jesus.
I read many of his wonderful posts on old/new TMB board when he was professing... You still can see the goodness in his heart comes out in his posts today!
Yes, but my wife also has a great respect for the 2x2 fellowship and way in Jesus.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 17:51:17 GMT -5
Having parents not raised in the fellowship is not the same as having parents raised in it. Parents like WhatHat have different views of the fellowship and that will have an effect on their children unlike those whose parents have been raised in it. It takes a couple of generations to 'professing proof' people. Parenting styles vary greatly, obviously have an affect on how children feel about their childhood, and don't really correlate to B&R versus proselytes to any great extent.
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Post by magpie on Jun 28, 2015 18:01:36 GMT -5
The Ethiopian said to Phillip. How can I know unless someone tells me? How many per year hear the Irvine interpretation? Especially when they close down their gospel season to have closed conventions.
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Post by fixit on Jun 28, 2015 18:27:14 GMT -5
SOMEONE SAID, "IF THEY ARE NOT A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN HELL". So you agree with Leroy Lerwick? The women and children starving,dying in refugee campe annd the women and children watching their husbands,sons and brothers beheaded in Syria by I.S. before being brutally raped and then shot God will say to them "I know you not". The CSA victims worldwide abused by Workers,leave or ostracised for speaking out to loud,(you know? the unwillings and trouble maker brandeds and gossip subjects),hurt disillusioned and bitter ,do you think God wiil desert them,He knows why,especially as many victims have developed mental illnesses (bitter 2x2s will say I told you so,see he/she are nuts) even many have suicided. As one of many Worker CSA victims to sit and listen to the Unholy perpetraters at convention,that sure is salt in open wounds,but God led me into a wonderfull ecumenical fellowship.God forgive you for that statement,He can handle the judgement ,so leave it to Him. Question: Where do most Christians expect the seven billion people on earth to spend eternity? Answer: If they are not a born again Christian, Hell. That seems a bit exclusive to me. A cult?
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 18:38:15 GMT -5
The Ethiopian said to Phillip. How can I know unless someone tells me? How many per year hear the Irvine interpretation? Especially when they close down their gospel season to have closed conventions. It's a good idea. If they attract interest it provides a cooling off period and a time of sober second thought without the workers around.
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Post by Greg on Jun 28, 2015 18:43:42 GMT -5
Question: Where do most Christians expect the seven billion people on earth to spend eternity? Answer: If they are not a born again Christian, Hell. That seems a bit exclusive to me. A cult? If 10,000,000,000 people ever lived on Earth and 9,999,999,999 were eternally saved with just one damned to eternal torment, would that, too, be exclusive?
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Post by faune on Jun 28, 2015 19:21:08 GMT -5
That seems a bit exclusive to me. A cult? If 10,000,000,000 people ever lived on Earth and 9,999,999,999 were eternally saved with just one damned to eternal torment, would that, too, be exclusive? However, let's not forget how the Doctrine of Hell came into being in the first place and the purpose behind it? When you review early church history you will find that the ECF's of the first century varied substantially with those of the 2nd to 5th century in their beliefs regarding "eternal hell fire" and judgment compared to those in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries and thereafter. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) had a lot to do with that as well as the creation of the first Latin Vulgate Bible which has more references to Hell than any other translation. Go figure? www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/hellisamyth.htm Hell Is A Myth www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell Mistranslations to Mean Hell
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 19:40:23 GMT -5
That seems a bit exclusive to me. A cult? If 10,000,000,000 people ever lived on Earth and 9,999,999,999 were eternally saved with just one damned to eternal torment, would that, too, be exclusive? I've read an article to the effect that the problem isn't 'exclusivism' but 'particularism'. The writer's point was that if your religion includes all those who believe in love and compassion and freedom and justice regardless of whether they were Hindu, Muslim, and so on, you might well be thought exclusive, but who could find fault with that level of exclusivism? You're really not ruling out many people with principles like that. Whereas the problem is really around the religions that believe you're saved around particular legalities, like owning a television, or in some cases, a refrigerator. Particularism. Trinitarian Christianity is fairly exclusive, or particular, if you wish, because in saying that Jesus is God, you exclude anyone who worships God, but not Jesus as God. In that sense, believing that Jesus is the son of God is less exclusive because it potentially finds mutuality with other non-Christian deists. This is one reason that I worship Jesus as the son of God, and not God Himself, because the latter belief excludes several billion people from heaven on an unjust basis. The answer some people give to this idea is that God is merciful and one day we will understand why He would appear so obviously unjust. But that raises another question: why would God want to appear as unjust to a rational, thinking, empathetic, compassionate person? I don't think He would want to appear that way, and thus I don't think He would have offered knowledge and faith only to Christians.
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