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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jun 28, 2015 19:53:52 GMT -5
I don't think you can generalise B&R versus coming in as an adult. Posters who hate the friends like to discredit my views by saying I wasn't B&R, but never offer any critique of the views themselves. I believe we had a positive experience because we came in with a positive attitude. Had I had that in the Reformed church I might well have had a good experience there too, but I was younger and less mature and while my views were not invalid, attitude greatly shaped those negative views. It's obvious you are a glass half FULL postitive kind of person. It's who you are. I don't know if you ever have posted in a negative complaining, whiney, sort of way - because that is NOT who you are. You live Phl 4:8, all your posts have that flavor.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 19:53:56 GMT -5
LOL. Thanks for showing a good spirit. You also caught me at a bad moment. It seems that some posters can't handle anything good said about the friends and when they can't deal with the message begin to cast aspersions upon the poster. I felt like that was the trend of the thread at that point. Regarding the way I look at our time with the friends. I bumped into an ex- recently that I once knew who was into his new church and he assumed erroneously that I was "born again" outside the friends. (God has been working with me since I was young). And he was all over the 'cult' he had left. And possibly he had dealt with some mean stuff when he left, I don't know. But the years I knew him were happy years, so why not take that in. Why reprocess the past in such a negative way? Remember the good. Just as you seem to automatically remember the good and seem to forget the bad, others are the opposite. Just the way we are. Someone might attempt to get you to dwell on the negative, but you won't, possibly you can't or barely could if you really tried. The same would be similar for those that dwell on the negative and dismiss the positive, the good. Just the way we are . . . in both cases. Hard to know what has really happened to and with people and what amount of mental, physical, and emotional pain has been suffered. And hard to know the capabilities of dealing with the negatives, the pain. People are different. we know that. Take for example a person makes a mistake and a parent or supervisor or boss gives a reaction. What might that reaction be? A little chuckle (if no injury) and "Whoa, you don't wanna do that again. Live and learn" or "Hey, what the ---- are you doing? What were you thinking? Were you thinking?!" I think for some that suffered in the fellowship, there was no doubt that another in the church who could have and would have helped. A worker defending the wronged when one of the friends caused harm. Or an overseer helping when a staff worker did wrong or a final authority when an overseer was negligent. But when no help comes or cries are dismissed or people are told to be quiet, easy to think there is partiality and that "the way" is being protected over the needs of the hurt individual. Yes, I totally agree and am aware of that. But that implies also that people's experiences and their memories of those experiences are in part a function of their own makeup. So why should we define the objective reality of a group through the lens of the very subjective experiences of its members? Or the very subjective religious views of other Christians.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jun 28, 2015 19:59:24 GMT -5
Yes, and their experience was different than mine. We talk about it, and they view their experience as positive, but not equally so. Three different kids (with spouses makes six); three different views. Obviously you and your wife passed positivity, the value of a positive attitude, on to your kids. That is one of the best things parents can ever do for their children.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 20:07:10 GMT -5
I don't think you can generalise B&R versus coming in as an adult. Posters who hate the friends like to discredit my views by saying I wasn't B&R, but never offer any critique of the views themselves. I believe we had a positive experience because we came in with a positive attitude. Had I had that in the Reformed church I might well have had a good experience there too, but I was younger and less mature and while my views were not invalid, attitude greatly shaped those negative views. It's obvious you are a glass half FULL postitive kind of person. It's who you are. I don't know if you ever have posted in a negative complaining, whiney, sort of way - because that is NOT who you are. You live Phl 4:8, all your posts have that flavor. Thanks, Jesse. We try. But I better add, hastily, that people do have negative experiences and great hurdles to overcome, in spite of their attitude. Just because someone has a negative view of the friends, doesn't necessarily imply a negative attitude, and I don't think that either.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jun 28, 2015 20:20:06 GMT -5
Yes. And the contrary is true too... Some are negative because that is what they feed on. What you eat shows up in the fruit you bear.
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Post by Greg on Jun 28, 2015 20:31:41 GMT -5
So why should we define the objective reality of a group through the lens of the very subjective experiences of its members? Or the very subjective religious views of other Christians. Had read somewhere that people involved in questionable experiences likely cannot be totally objective in their view of such. I suppose that depends on the experience and the person. I don't know if someone in the meetings would consider anyone out of the meetings as objective or if any former members would do the same for any current member.
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Post by emy on Jun 28, 2015 21:26:41 GMT -5
The Ethiopian said to Phillip. How can I know unless someone tells me? How many per year hear the Irvine interpretation? Especially when they close down their gospel season to have closed conventions. Conventions aren't closed in our region. Anyone who has been showing a sustained interest in gospel meetings will be invited to convention. Even walk-ins are welcome if they aren't likely to be disruptive.
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Post by emy on Jun 28, 2015 21:34:39 GMT -5
So why should we define the objective reality of a group through the lens of the very subjective experiences of its members? Or the very subjective religious views of other Christians. Had read somewhere that people involved in questionable experiences likely cannot be totally objective in their view of such. I suppose that depends on the experience and the person. I don't know if someone in the meetings would consider anyone out of the meetings as objective or if any former members would do the same for any current member. I see some ex-fellowship posters here as objective. Would like to name names, but might end up being way more exclusive than I'd like!!
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2015 22:22:19 GMT -5
Had read somewhere that people involved in questionable experiences likely cannot be totally objective in their view of such. I suppose that depends on the experience and the person. I don't know if someone in the meetings would consider anyone out of the meetings as objective or if any former members would do the same for any current member. I see some ex-fellowship posters here as objective. Would like to name names, but might end up being way more exclusive than I'd like!! Time does make one more objective. And not that we've been gone a long time. But for many ex's the stages of denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance apply. Views are going to change as someone progresses through each stage.
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Post by magpie on Jun 29, 2015 2:12:03 GMT -5
Nathan B you serious? I/we have known and seen people led off the convention grounds because one I know a relative had failed in business,others wanted to return for the sake of their children,others local church goers wanting to share their ecumenical overview and be inclusive of their 2x2s locals they have known all their life,to share a oneness of each others faith,led away,told to please leave. Jesus wont want to be returning to an amputee bribe,so embrace all who are endeavouring to hold and live actively their faith as they know it,look for the good points of all not as 2x2s teach only look at disagreed points . AS the world is as now, in the last days as we all will stand together we wont be saying I cannot stand by you because support helping the homeless and have a social welfare active arm and we dont do anything for anybody in distress and persecution, and think you are false lot.
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Post by Greg on Jun 29, 2015 5:26:48 GMT -5
Nathan B you serious? I/we have known and seen people led off the convention grounds because one I know a relative had failed in business,others wanted to return for the sake of their children,others local church goers wanting to share their ecumenical overview and be inclusive of their 2x2s locals they have known all their life,to share a oneness of each others faith,led away,told to please leave. Jesus wont want to be returning to an amputee bribe,so embrace all who are endeavouring to hold and live actively their faith as they know it,look for the good points of all not as 2x2s teach only look at disagreed points . AS the world is as now, in the last days as we all will stand together we wont be saying I cannot stand by you because support helping the homeless and have a social welfare active arm and we dont do anything for anybody in distress and persecution, and think you are false lot. But how do you really feel?
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Post by xna on Jun 29, 2015 7:27:13 GMT -5
The mind is fooled to misrepresent reality. When a group departs from a normative worldview, they are thought of as brainwashed, and a cult. But if it grows large enough, any mass delusion can be considered normal. The smaller the 2x2 become, the more the word cult, will stick. It's hard to see ones own perspective, like It 's hard for a fish to explain water, as it knows nothing else (B&R). The cult label is less important than how they act. I suspect indoctrination works like this. The groups ideas rub off on you, and at some point you can not distinguish it's thoughts, from your own thoughts. Works best on the young. Check this out this quick test to see how quickly our mind can be distorted youtu.be/sxwn1w7MJvk
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Post by blacksheep on Jun 29, 2015 9:45:37 GMT -5
Oh, I have a "small" understanding of my children. Thanks for that. The negative person I mentioned previously in my post came into the fellowship around the same age and time as I did, and had a completely opposite point of view to mine. And you've seen my post on my kids. I don't think you can generalise B&R versus coming in as an adult. Posters who hate the friends like to discredit my views by saying I wasn't B&R, but never offer any critique of the views themselves. I believe we had a positive experience because we came in with a positive attitude. Had I had that in the Reformed church I might well have had a good experience there too, but I was younger and less mature and while my views were not invalid, attitude greatly shaped those negative views. Putting aside attitudes, whether positive or negative, putting aside views of their experiences, whether positive, negative or indifferent, a person who enters the fellowship of the F&Ws as an adult can't possibly grasp in totality what it was like from a child's point of view (regardless of positive or negative.) Observing ones child and talking to ones child is not the same a actually being that child. Fact. Yes, we all have a "small" understanding of our children; we can never see things through their eyes. That's not meant to belittle or insult, that's just a fact of life.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 29, 2015 10:21:27 GMT -5
Oh, I have a "small" understanding of my children. Thanks for that. The negative person I mentioned previously in my post came into the fellowship around the same age and time as I did, and had a completely opposite point of view to mine. And you've seen my post on my kids. I don't think you can generalise B&R versus coming in as an adult. Posters who hate the friends like to discredit my views by saying I wasn't B&R, but never offer any critique of the views themselves. I believe we had a positive experience because we came in with a positive attitude. Had I had that in the Reformed church I might well have had a good experience there too, but I was younger and less mature and while my views were not invalid, attitude greatly shaped those negative views. Putting aside attitudes, whether positive or negative, putting aside views of their experiences, whether positive, negative or indifferent, a person who enters the fellowship of the F&Ws as an adult can't possibly grasp in totality what it was like from a child's point of view (regardless of positive or negative.) Observing ones child and talking to ones child is not the same a actually being that child. Fact. Yes, we all have a "small" understanding of our children; we can never see things through their eyes. That's not meant to belittle or insult, that's just a fact of life. Yes, I agree with that. What I disagree with is that our children's experience and their perception of the value of that experience is going to be driven by the fact that they were 'born and raised' versus our experience of coming in as an adult. Our experience was positive, and so was theirs, and we left really for reasons of doctrine and belief, not out of any sense that the experience was negative. A research study conduct at the University of Kentucky on the friends/ 2x2s found that doctrine was the main influence in people leaving the friends/ 2x2s. works.bepress.com/julene/6/The sample surveyed for the study was skewed toward active Internet posters. "Respondents to this survey of former Two-by-Two members were recruited from the private Facebook group “ex members of the: 2x2's; Cooneyites; Way; Secret Sect; Truth; Friends, etc.” and from three specific online forums, (1) Truth Meetings Board; (2) Worker, Friend, and Ex-Board; and (3) The Liberty Connection." The number one motive for disaffiliation, as the study puts it, was disagreement with the doctrine. Harm caused by the friends or workers was listed by only a minority of respondents, 27%, as a major influence in their exit. In a better sample of exit-ers, which would include many with less motivation against the friends, I think the finding would be even more pronounced.
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Post by blacksheep on Jun 29, 2015 12:00:04 GMT -5
I just deleted my last post; it was incomplete when the power went off. (God must not have wanted it posted; Sorry, neighbors without power, its my fault!) I'll try later and hope lightening doesn't strike...
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Post by magpie on Jun 30, 2015 17:15:08 GMT -5
Greg,You want to know how I really feel? Like a prisoner set free,liberated and some value to society. As long as I have breath in my body I will(we) endeavour to protect children and young adults from the horrors of CSA (criminal child sexual abuse),me 1940s/50s,by two holy men,who at the pulpet at convention flogged that they represented the only true way to heaven. So many of us compared notes,mental illness and suicides grew amongst young 2x2s,two holy men currently jailed in our district one 6 months one sentence suspended by coverup of total victims. I feel great I worship with 200 locals and we also share speakers and events with many of our local christians of various persuasions. Thanks I feel fullfilled and rejoice in the Lord each day,
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 30, 2015 17:30:58 GMT -5
The mind is fooled to misrepresent reality. When a group departs from a normative worldview, they are thought of as brainwashed, and a cult. But if it grows large enough, any mass delusion can be considered normal. The smaller the 2x2 become, the more the word cult, will stick. It's hard to see ones own perspective, like It 's hard for a fish to explain water, as it knows nothing else (B&R). The cult label is less important than how they act. I suspect indoctrination works like this. The groups ideas rub off on you, and at some point you can not distinguish it's thoughts, from your own thoughts. Works best on the young. Check this out this quick test to see how quickly our mind can be distorted youtu.be/sxwn1w7MJvk That was fascinating! Can't wait to try it on someone!
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Post by magpie on Jul 1, 2015 18:11:35 GMT -5
Leroy's letter.....members3.broadhost.com/Professing/msg/1435349829.html
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Post by magpie on Jul 1, 2015 18:15:30 GMT -5
OK.. missed just look up- Leroy Lerwicks letter of consern.--then explain it is only one mans opinion again. Recken Satin reads it with glee?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 1, 2015 21:00:38 GMT -5
A research study conduct at the University of Kentucky on the friends/ 2x2s found that doctrine was the main influence in people leaving the friends/ 2x2s. works.bepress.com/julene/6/The sample surveyed for the study was skewed toward active Internet posters. "Respondents to this survey of former Two-by-Two members were recruited from the private Facebook group “ex members of the: 2x2's; Cooneyites; Way; Secret Sect; Truth; Friends, etc.” and from three specific online forums, (1) Truth Meetings Board; (2) Worker, Friend, and Ex-Board; and (3) The Liberty Connection." The number one motive for disaffiliation, as the study puts it, was disagreement with the doctrine. Harm caused by the friends or workers was listed by only a minority of respondents, 27%, as a major influence in their exit. In a better sample of exit-ers, which would include many with less motivation against the friends, I think the finding would be even more pronounced. Wow. Some of that is really dumb. 29 of the 37 male respondents listen to the radio now, and 21 consume alcoholic beverages. "This description is formed from the author’s own disaffiliation from the sect. The author was “born and raised” in the sect, and was a sect member for 11 years." That means tt would not be acceptable on wiki. She really likes to use the word "encapsulate". I wonder if she read anything about how "encapsulated" type III apostate narratives are. I can't believe that qualifies as a Master's Thesis.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 1, 2015 22:00:02 GMT -5
Some of the written responses are noteworthy; 13. "Yet, I couldn't live in the hell that the 2x2 group had become." - Obviously we're condemned to hell for that. 21. "My first wife was a s l u t and deserted my son and myself a week after his 2nd bday. After 4 years I remarried and was tossed out. But, I was planning on leaving. I was told to pray for my wife's death, rather than bother the workers about permission to remarry." 26. "It's a cult" 38. "At the age of 15 worked out I was growing up in a cult." Some are really sad. 65. "He was elder that day, in the home that the meetings were in, the bread and wine were passed, I took my tiny piece of bread, and when the lady next to me went to pass the cup, my sister in law, reached out in front of me and took the cup away.... I watched to see if my brother had seen it, and he had not.... That was the final straw." The workers in our area would NEVER advocate doing that. The problem here is it's not as anonymous as it should be - you can recognize posters from their written responses, and not just the ones who link off their response.
Great post, Jesse. Please keep that one handy. It may prove useful again.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 1, 2015 23:07:08 GMT -5
There is some truth to those statements but it also sounds somewhat familiar to....."just a bunch of bitter exes".... that's not what happened at all and he's lying etc. Etc.. Quite difficult to remain objective in telling some bad experience, but even harder to tell someone who automatically thinks you are lying or has the attitude that you "asked for it". Alvin
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Post by magpie on Jul 1, 2015 23:23:59 GMT -5
G'day Jesse Lackman. Another heresy. No man/woman has the right to stop someone partaking from the Lords table,no one. It is between us as individuals and God. He knows the heart of all that come before Him including those who have failed,it is up to us all again as indivuduals to put our lives right before God at the moment of the partaking,privately with God or if you have offended someone the power of Gods Grace through the redeeming blood will make you go or turn to that person(s)and ask for understanding of your struggle and/or forgiveness for the offence.Sounds pretty new testament to me. Thanks Jesse.I have had it happen to me,for speaking of a couple paedophile workers,didnt I cop it,just causing trouble!!!!, so you were even left out of birthday invitations,one about two miles away,worst is pretending you didnt notice. A cold callous compassionless cult.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 2, 2015 8:25:47 GMT -5
G'day Jesse Lackman. Another heresy. No man/woman has the right to stop someone partaking from the Lords table,no one. It is between us as individuals and God. He knows the heart of all that come before Him including those who have failed,it is up to us all again as indivuduals to put our lives right before God at the moment of the partaking,privately with God or if you have offended someone the power of Gods Grace through the redeeming blood will make you go or turn to that person(s)and ask for understanding of your struggle and/or forgiveness for the offence.Sounds pretty new testament to me. Thanks Jesse.I have had it happen to me,for speaking of a couple paedophile workers,didnt I cop it,just causing trouble!!!!, so you were even left out of birthday invitations,one about two miles away,worst is pretending you didnt notice. A cold callous compassionless cult. "A cold callous compassionless cult." So am I condemned to hell? How could I fellowship in "a cold callous compassionless cult" and not be condemned to hell? Aren't you doing exactly what you are talking about here -->> "No man/woman has the right to stop someone partaking from the Lords table,no one. It is between us as individuals and God."? Why do so many exes seem to think they have the right to broad brush judge and condemn others like that?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 2, 2015 8:44:02 GMT -5
I'm surprised she got so few to respond. 83 is all? Wow. Why so few?
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tom
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by tom on Jul 3, 2015 7:45:00 GMT -5
I'm surprised she got so few to respond. 83 is all? Wow. Why so few? Respond to what.. 83? Do you mean Magpies message?
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Post by rational on Jul 3, 2015 8:19:34 GMT -5
I'm surprised she got so few to respond. 83 is all? Wow. Why so few? Respond to what.. 83? Do you mean Magpies message? The "research" master's thesis by Julene L. Jones. It's a tough read! Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease 1.9 A higher score indicates easier readability scores usually range between 0 and 100.
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Post by Greg on Jul 3, 2015 8:30:46 GMT -5
Respond to what.. 83? Do you mean Magpies message? The "research" master's thesis by Julene L. Jones. It's a tough read! Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease 1.9 A higher score indicates easier readability scores usually range between 0 and 100. I wonder what made it 1.9 and not 2.0.
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