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Post by matisse on May 19, 2015 8:19:50 GMT -5
Honestly, 2x2's on this Board are fixated on the Trinity and in real life it tends to be referred to by them as "that Catholic doctrine". I've never found a Christian who worries about it at all. This sounds a little like "No True Scotsman..." Are you suggesting that people who hold and express strong opinions about the Trinity are not True Christians?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 19, 2015 9:15:13 GMT -5
Honestly, 2x2's on this Board are fixated on the Trinity and in real life it tends to be referred to by them as "that Catholic doctrine". If you really pay attention the 2x2s on this board are reacting to people who seem to love to pre-emptivelyattack the fellowship over their alleged non-Trinitarian beliefs. That is always the sequence of events in the Trinity discussions. The fellowship has been and is pre-emptively attacked on all fronts over Trinity beliefs, in books, on websites, and on discussion boards. If you objectively analyze the discussions here what you will see is some pro-Trinity broad-brush post attacking the fellowship, then the fight is on. If anyone can find even one Trinity fight started by a 2x2 I'll be amazed. To me the trinity is one of those things "we see through a glass, darkly" we don't and for now won't know for sure. So why criticize and beat people up over it? It's not a charitable thing to do. This can be part of the positivity challenge for you Ross, you got a good start going with "(before someone jumps on me - I'm not saying you can't do it in the 2x2's)".
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Post by rational on May 19, 2015 11:32:32 GMT -5
They saw slavery as "compassionate". Many believed Africans were not fully human and would benefit from the structured existence of slavery. The Bible - including the New Testament - refers to slavery and does not speak out against it. Can you see how the Bible could be seen as supporting slavery? Many descendents of slaves are Christian today...a "testiment" to the prevelant belief back then that slavery gave the enslaved Africans a chance to embrace Christianity that they otherwise would not have had. Would you deny them that? You are passing judgement on an awful lot of Christians. God and the Bible can be (and has been) used, with all sincerity, to "justify" all kinds of things. Matisse anyone who does anything like that, is not of God! Whatever they say they believe in! You argument falls cleanly into the No True Scotsman logical fallacy.
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Post by faune on May 19, 2015 13:43:17 GMT -5
The Trinity doctrine and mumbo-jumbo no longer seems 'real' for many Christians, so many young people are looking for a more genuine service and connection with God. I don't think I've mentioned the Trinity doctrine I wasn't really thinking about that... I witnessed 24 young people from Year 11 give their lives to Christ last Sunday. I expect they have spent very little time reading about the Trinity doctrine and mumbo-jumbo as you put it. I can guarantee that if you asked every one of them who God is they would tell you very quickly what the Father, Son and Holy Spirit means to them personally and the personal relationship they have with God. I'm sure every day they pray to the Father, praise the Son for saving them and ask the Holy Spirit to work in them to make them more like Christ. That doesn't sound like Trinity doctrine or mumbo-jumbo to me. Honestly, 2x2's on this Board are fixated on the Trinity and in real life it tends to be referred to by them as "that Catholic doctrine". I've never found a Christian who worries about it at all. Most Christians that I fellowship with are focused on spreading the gospel and becoming more like Jesus - not easy but a good priority. They want to be in a church where they can do this (before someone jumps on me - I'm not saying you can't do it in the 2x2's) Ross ~ I agree! Around Easter weekend I saw a number of young folks get baptized at my church and give their testimony. It was heartwarming to see the commitment in their lives. Also, many of the teenagers are involved in missions here and abroad in helping the needy and underprivileged, which I consider Christianity hands-on.
I wonder how many converts the workers bring in every year in their area with their particular gospel message and how much encouragement there is to get involved in helping others within their communities? I saw few people professing during my 30 years within the 2x2's and most were B&R and felt obligated by their families. Also, many of the same teens left the fellowship when they left home. Obviously, there doesn't seem to be a lot of attraction to the 2x2's and their "one and only way of salvation," or more people would be jumping on board these days instead of departing the ship? No doubt the workers losing their ability to control "information within the fold" due to Internet exposure has contributed a lot to its decline over the years since I left 20 years ago?
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Post by Lee on May 19, 2015 13:43:45 GMT -5
TMB is full of participants who truly "know" they are operating on revealed truth. The conflict and strife among them is dumbfounding. The amazing thing is they all believe the Bible. Burning Bibles should resolve this problem but if that doesn't work we can prosecute the problem themselves.
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Post by faune on May 19, 2015 14:09:52 GMT -5
When I left the 2x2's, we were called "Apostates" and friends were cautioned to have nothing to do with us thereafter. However, perhaps "apostates" is in and "cult" is out, although such name calling for ex-members is still O.K. within the 2x2's? This is also the "pet name" within other "one and only" groups who claim to have the corner on salvation and the Truth? For instance, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, who also call themselves "The Truth." Just curious, has the terminology changed any for ex-members than when I left, because that word doesn't resonate too well with me either? Also, I wonder how you would rate the Mormons & JW's, which are also found in the Introduction and list of Bible-cults on this cult awareness site along with the 2x2's and others due to similar characteristics found in leadership? See Introduction to listing on Bible-based cults below:
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 14:25:52 GMT -5
When I left the 2x2's, we were called "Apostates" and friends were cautioned to have nothing to do with us thereafter. However, perhaps "apostates" is in and "cult" is out, although such name calling for ex-members is still O.K. within the 2x2's? This is also the "pet name" within other "one and only" groups who claim to have the corner on salvation and the Truth? For instance, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, who also call themselves "The Truth." Just curious, has the terminology changed any for ex-members than when I left, because that word doesn't resonate too well with me either? Also, I wonder how you would rate the Mormons & JW's, which are also found in the Introduction and list of Bible-cults on this cult awareness site along with the 2x2's and others due to similar characteristics found in leadership? I never heard the word "apostates" used until I joined this forum. I know many people who have left the fellowship, but the general feeling seems to be sadness, or sympathy for them, certainly never heard of anyone being called names because they left. I don't know enough about Mormons or JW's to attempt to rate them, nor do I see any need to fit them into any particular box. As I pointed out on another post, I don't agree with the "2x2's" being put in the 'cult' box either, and have never seen a list of things that identify a cult that would apply to the fellowship.
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Post by snow on May 19, 2015 16:36:23 GMT -5
Felicity, did you say "I do not know anyone with a TV or radio, " ? Are you serious you don't know anyone of the friends that have a radio ? Of course I'm serious. I don't know anyone who has a radio in their house. Obviously radio's are built into cars nowadays, but I don't know anyone who actually uses them. There's one in my car but I've never turned it on and I don't even know how. That's what I remember back in the days when I was in the group. No one had TV's but many of the farmers did have a radio to get news and weather. I never thought to go looking for 2x2's online because I never imagined that a group that weren't allowed TV's or radios, ever being allowed to own a computer where they had access to much worse then you'll ever see on TV. It still amazes me actually. Curiosity, why are you allowed computers but no TV or radio?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 16:44:55 GMT -5
Of course I'm serious. I don't know anyone who has a radio in their house. Obviously radio's are built into cars nowadays, but I don't know anyone who actually uses them. There's one in my car but I've never turned it on and I don't even know how. That's what I remember back in the days when I was in the group. No one had TV's but many of the farmers did have a radio to get news and weather. I never thought to go looking for 2x2's online because I never imagined that a group that weren't allowed TV's or radios, ever being allowed to own a computer where they had access to much worse then you'll ever see on TV. It still amazes me actually. Curiosity, why are you allowed computers but no TV or radio? People had computers for typing, accounts etc before ever there was internet access. The expectation would be that people would not use their computers to access anything inappropriate. Farmers here still tend to call the local weather station for the weather forecast.
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Post by snow on May 19, 2015 16:45:49 GMT -5
Of course you would never hear words of mammon from any of the F&W would you Virgo ! what are they like All those things us non believers say... My parents had a radio, but they were farmers and listened to it for the weather and sometimes the news. Dad even made sure when he ordered cars that they took the radio out. I don't imagine that's possible anymore with things being mostly computerized?
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Post by snow on May 19, 2015 16:53:30 GMT -5
This sounds a little like "No True Scotsman..." Are you suggesting that people who hold and express strong opinions about the Trinity are not True Christians? Not at all - I'm simply saying that it's not a major discussion point (like it is on TMB) in Christian churches. I know a number of 2x2's who believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's been posted by you that you don't believe the 2x2's are Christians and what they preach is heresy. Now you are changing your mind about that?
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Post by snow on May 19, 2015 17:03:20 GMT -5
That's what I remember back in the days when I was in the group. No one had TV's but many of the farmers did have a radio to get news and weather. I never thought to go looking for 2x2's online because I never imagined that a group that weren't allowed TV's or radios, ever being allowed to own a computer where they had access to much worse then you'll ever see on TV. It still amazes me actually. Curiosity, why are you allowed computers but no TV or radio? People had computers for typing, accounts etc before ever there was internet access. The expectation would be that people would not use their computers to access anything inappropriate. Farmers here still tend to call the local weather station for the weather forecast. We didn't have a phone so they wouldn't have been able to do that, so I guess the radio was an important too when you are farming.
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Post by faune on May 19, 2015 19:00:53 GMT -5
When I left the 2x2's, we were called "Apostates" and friends were cautioned to have nothing to do with us thereafter. However, perhaps "apostates" is in and "cult" is out, although such name calling for ex-members is still O.K. within the 2x2's? This is also the "pet name" within other "one and only" groups who claim to have the corner on salvation and the Truth? For instance, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, who also call themselves "The Truth." Just curious, has the terminology changed any for ex-members than when I left, because that word doesn't resonate too well with me either? Also, I wonder how you would rate the Mormons & JW's, which are also found in the Introduction and list of Bible-cults on this cult awareness site along with the 2x2's and others due to similar characteristics found in leadership? I never heard the word "apostates" used until I joined this forum. I know many people who have left the fellowship, but the general feeling seems to be sadness, or sympathy for them, certainly never heard of anyone being called names because they left. I don't know enough about Mormons or JW's to attempt to rate them, nor do I see any need to fit them into any particular box. As I pointed out on another post, I don't agree with the "2x2's" being put in the 'cult' box either, and have never seen a list of things that identify a cult that would apply to the fellowship. Felicity ~ You must be new to this board to have missed the usage of "apostates" to describe ex-members? Also, wonder how long you have professed and your country of location, due to your posts? However, the same word is used by JW's and Mormons for folks who leave their group. In fact, I remember a worker on this board back in 2011 who loved to use this word for exe's. He went by the name of noels.
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Post by rational on May 19, 2015 19:01:51 GMT -5
I don't think I've mentioned the Trinity doctrine :) I wasn't really thinking about that... I witnessed 24 young people from Year 11 give their lives to Christ last Sunday. I expect they have spent very little time reading about the Trinity doctrine and mumbo-jumbo as you put it. Are you talking about 11 year old children? I don't know them but it would be a very different selection of children is they did more than recite back what they have been told. It isn't only the doctrine of the trinity that can be viewed as 'mumbo-jumbo'. According to the Catholic catechism the mystery of the trinity is the central mystery of christian faith and life and yet you do not think this is a concern to any christian? These christians probably are a lot like you.
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Post by faune on May 19, 2015 19:30:06 GMT -5
Not at all - I'm simply saying that it's not a major discussion point (like it is on TMB) in Christian churches. I know a number of 2x2's who believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's been posted by you that you don't believe the 2x2's are Christians and what they preach is heresy. Now you are changing your mind about that? When William Irvine incorporated his Living Witness Doctrine as the cornerstone of their gospel message in 1904, Edward Cooney and other workers didn't like it and considered it HERESY. Since it is still being taught as the basis of their gospel message instead of the Roman's Road version in most churches, I would dare say the 2x2's differ in their gospel message compare to worldly churches outside their fold. From Chapter 15 in Cherie's book on TTT is the excerpt below:
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Post by snow on May 19, 2015 20:40:41 GMT -5
It's been posted by you that you don't believe the 2x2's are Christians and what they preach is heresy. Now you are changing your mind about that? Snow - I know I've never said that all 2x2's are not Christians...I became a Christian in the 2x2's so I would hardly hold that belief. I believe the workers preach heresy on some issues - heresy is a strong word but it essentially means that in my opinion the workers' teaching or doctrine (in the main) is at variance with orthodox or accepted Christian doctrine. No maybe not, I think it was Irvine Grey that said 2x2's weren't Christians. Sorry about that. But I guess that is the feeling I get from you when you state that what they preach and believe is heresy. I think you are saying they don't preach a Christian doctrine, so if they don't do that how can they be 'real Christians' by your way of thinking? Aren't you saying one thing which leads to the conclusion being the other?
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Post by rational on May 19, 2015 21:07:21 GMT -5
It's been posted by you that you don't believe the 2x2's are Christians and what they preach is heresy. Now you are changing your mind about that? Snow - I know I've never said that all 2x2's are not Christians...I became a Christian in the 2x2's so I would hardly hold that belief. I believe the workers preach heresy on some issues - heresy is a strong word but it essentially means that in my opinion the workers' teaching or doctrine (in the main) is at variance with orthodox or accepted Christian doctrine. In short you believe they are heretics. Wouldn't that preclude them from being, in your view, christians?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 19, 2015 21:10:04 GMT -5
When I left the 2x2's, we were called "Apostates" and friends were cautioned to have nothing to do with us thereafter. However, perhaps "apostates" is in and "cult" is out, although such name calling for ex-members is still O.K. within the 2x2's? This is also the "pet name" within other "one and only" groups who claim to have the corner on salvation and the Truth? For instance, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, who also call themselves "The Truth." Just curious, has the terminology changed any for ex-members than when I left, because that word doesn't resonate too well with me either? Also, I wonder how you would rate the Mormons & JW's, which are also found in the Introduction and list of Bible-cults on this cult awareness site along with the 2x2's and others due to similar characteristics found in leadership? I never heard the word "apostates" used until I joined this forum. I know many people who have left the fellowship, but the general feeling seems to be sadness, or sympathy for them, certainly never heard of anyone being called names because they left. I don't know enough about Mormons or JW's to attempt to rate them, nor do I see any need to fit them into any particular box. As I pointed out on another post, I don't agree with the "2x2's" being put in the 'cult' box either, and have never seen a list of things that identify a cult that would apply to the fellowship. Felicity, why is there sadness or sympathy for people who have left the "Fellowship" ?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 22:39:51 GMT -5
I never heard the word "apostates" used until I joined this forum. I know many people who have left the fellowship, but the general feeling seems to be sadness, or sympathy for them, certainly never heard of anyone being called names because they left. I don't know enough about Mormons or JW's to attempt to rate them, nor do I see any need to fit them into any particular box. As I pointed out on another post, I don't agree with the "2x2's" being put in the 'cult' box either, and have never seen a list of things that identify a cult that would apply to the fellowship. Felicity, why is there sadness or sympathy for people who have left the "Fellowship" ? Because they have chosen the harder road to heaven.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 19, 2015 22:46:04 GMT -5
Wally, how do you know that ? So all those people out there that go to other churches all those people that never heard a worker have chosen the harder road to heaven !
It amazing on here how people say "we don't say we are the only right way" yet they turn around & post something like Wally has here !
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 23:03:31 GMT -5
Wally, how do you know that ? So all those people out there that go to other churches all those people that never heard a worker have chosen the harder road to heaven ! It amazing on here how people say "we don't say we are the only right way" yet they turn around & post something like Wally has here ! you've confused me with someone else I've never said "we don't say we are the only right way" neither have I said "we are the only way" I have said we are a better way...
how do I know that? because of what I've seen around me in other churches its not that hard to see...
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Post by Roselyn T on May 19, 2015 23:24:43 GMT -5
Wally you have just said exactly that by your statement "I have said we are a better way..." " because of what I've seen around me in other churches its not that hard to see..."
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Post by What Hat on May 20, 2015 1:56:45 GMT -5
The Trinity doctrine and mumbo-jumbo no longer seems 'real' for many Christians, so many young people are looking for a more genuine service and connection with God. I don't think I've mentioned the Trinity doctrine I wasn't really thinking about that... I witnessed 24 young people from Year 11 give their lives to Christ last Sunday. I expect they have spent very little time reading about the Trinity doctrine and mumbo-jumbo as you put it. I can guarantee that if you asked every one of them who God is they would tell you very quickly what the Father, Son and Holy Spirit means to them personally and the personal relationship they have with God. I'm sure every day they pray to the Father, praise the Son for saving them and ask the Holy Spirit to work in them to make them more like Christ. That doesn't sound like Trinity doctrine or mumbo-jumbo to me. Honestly, 2x2's on this Board are fixated on the Trinity and in real life it tends to be referred to by them as "that Catholic doctrine". I've never found a Christian who worries about it at all. Most Christians that I fellowship with are focused on spreading the gospel and becoming more like Jesus - not easy but a good priority. They want to be in a church where they can do this (before someone jumps on me - I'm not saying you can't do it in the 2x2's) My comment wasn't from the perspective of the 2x2s. The type of person I'm thinking of isn't interested in church attendance, but is interested in social activism, and in helping the disadvantaged, and do consider themselves Christian. But I also know Christian young people who are traditional; it just seems the 'new breed' is growing.
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Post by What Hat on May 20, 2015 1:58:38 GMT -5
In other words, away from revealed theology, and back to private interpretation. Good luck, What Hat. Not 'private' but not 'given' either.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 3:53:05 GMT -5
I never heard the word "apostates" used until I joined this forum. I know many people who have left the fellowship, but the general feeling seems to be sadness, or sympathy for them, certainly never heard of anyone being called names because they left. I don't know enough about Mormons or JW's to attempt to rate them, nor do I see any need to fit them into any particular box. As I pointed out on another post, I don't agree with the "2x2's" being put in the 'cult' box either, and have never seen a list of things that identify a cult that would apply to the fellowship. Felicity, why is there sadness or sympathy for people who have left the "Fellowship" ? If you have something that brings you great joy, won't you want other people to share it too? Wouldn't it make you sad if the people you care about don't want to go to your favourite places, and you don't feel comfortable going to theirs?
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 4:08:06 GMT -5
Honestly, 2x2's on this Board are fixated on the Trinity and in real life it tends to be referred to by them as "that Catholic doctrine". I've never found a Christian who worries about it at all. Can you explain to me why people question that F&W are "Christians" unless they believe Trinitarian dogma? Can you explain to me why people call the 2x2 church a "cult" due to Trinitarian dogma not being accepted? I noticed that you condemn folks for "heresy" Ross... Yet you've never found a Christian who worries about it at all???
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 4:15:19 GMT -5
I never heard the word "apostates" used until I joined this forum. I know many people who have left the fellowship, but the general feeling seems to be sadness, or sympathy for them, certainly never heard of anyone being called names because they left. I don't know enough about Mormons or JW's to attempt to rate them, nor do I see any need to fit them into any particular box. As I pointed out on another post, I don't agree with the "2x2's" being put in the 'cult' box either, and have never seen a list of things that identify a cult that would apply to the fellowship. Felicity ~ You must be new to this board to have missed the usage of "apostates" to describe ex-members? Also, wonder how long you have professed and your country of location, due to your posts? However, the same word is used by JW's and Mormons for folks who leave their group. In fact, I remember a worker on this board back in 2011 who loved to use this word for exe's. He went by the name of noels. I am relatively new to this board, I joined last month. However, I have seen the word "apostates" used on this forum. I said I'd never heard it used anywhere else. I didn't even know what it meant, had to google it. What have I said in my posts that make you wonder how long I've been professing?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 20, 2015 5:29:13 GMT -5
Felicity, why is there sadness or sympathy for people who have left the "Fellowship" ? If you have something that brings you great joy, won't you want other people to share it too? Wouldn't it make you sad if the people you care about don't want to go to your favourite places, and you don't feel comfortable going to theirs? 10 years ago I would have agreed with you, but not anymore because I no longer believe "The Truth" is the only right way. People that I have heard make comments about others leaving the fellowship are always along the lines of "Isn't it sad that they are now lost"
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