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Post by Mary on May 20, 2015 6:10:45 GMT -5
Wally, you said your church was a better way. I disagree, I don't think your church is better at all. I think you are missing out so much on the blessings of God being bound to rules and traditions. Jesus came to give and enhance life not burden us with rules and traditions. Cast all your burdens on Him. He is the burden bearer so to speak.
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Post by What Hat on May 20, 2015 8:46:13 GMT -5
Can you explain to me why people question that F&W are "Christians" unless they believe Trinitarian dogma? Can you explain to me why people call the 2x2 church a "cult" due to Trinitarian dogma not being accepted? I noticed that you condemn folks for "heresy" Ross... Yet you've never found a Christian who worries about it at all??? Possibly the same reason as why you referred to evangelical, penecostal etc cults yesterday. I don't know. Your question is fairly loaded with the "dogma" word so I'm sure you can work it out. In your second line I don't "condemn" folks - again a fairly loaded word. I criticise the workers (or any minister for that matter) who preach heresy. Workers seems to have quite different views on the issue but if they publicly support that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit they seem to be ousted fairly quickly - despite the fact that they baptise in His name - it's all a bit confusing? It takes up a lot of threads on this Board but in non 2x2 Christian churches I've never met anyone who opposes it. Seems like the "Father is God only" camp has won the day in the 2x2 church which I'm sure you are happy about. It will be interesting to see what they do in the next edition of the Hymn Book - further removal of particular hymns that praise and worship Christ. That might not upset you but it will upset a significant amount of people so they will need to tread carefully. I don't think the "Father is God only" camp has won out. Because the issue is not a key point of doctrine, people can think what they want.
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Post by rational on May 20, 2015 8:48:47 GMT -5
In short you believe they are heretics. Wouldn't that preclude them from being, in your view, christians? In short, I believe the workers (in the main) preach heresy on some important issues. Of course, a number of 2x2 folk don't follow the workers on these issues so it must becoming harder for workers to manage the divergent views. I'm very comfortable in calling them Christians - there's a significant mix of Christian teaching in there along with what the workers have added but that is probably no different to the Catholics who have added in a stack of stuff which the 2x2's haven't. You can't really have it both ways. They are either heretics or they are christians. Sort of like being dead - tyhere is no 1/ 2 way point.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 20, 2015 10:08:07 GMT -5
Felicity ~ You must be new to this board to have missed the usage of "apostates" to describe ex-members? Also, wonder how long you have professed and your country of location, due to your posts? However, the same word is used by JW's and Mormons for folks who leave their group. In fact, I remember a worker on this board back in 2011 who loved to use this word for exe's. He went by the name of noels. I am relatively new to this board, I joined last month. However, I have seen the word "apostates" used on this forum. I said I'd never heard it used anywhere else. I didn't even know what it meant, had to google it. What have I said in my posts that make you wonder how long I've been professing? This thread -->> professing.proboards.com/thread/17539/counter-advocacy is a pretty good discussion on the subject. Apostate is a more accurate term than cult as used here on TMB. Counter-advocacy is more accurate then cult too. 2x2 apostates and others engaged in active counter-advocacy don't like the terms. That doesn't change the fact that they are more accurate than "cult".
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 20, 2015 10:34:19 GMT -5
Wow were there some good posts on that thread! If you follow the bouncing ball on this: 1) Kathleen Lewis self-publishes a piece of crap about the friends called "Church with No Name". 2) The Plain Truth magazine publishes an article about the group using Lewis and VOT as major sources. See - www.ptm.org/09PT/SepOct/cultNoName.pdf3) The rubbish in the Plain Truth can now be used as a "reliable source" in religious encyclopedia and wikipedia. Such is the fruit of counter-advocacy.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 20, 2015 12:24:40 GMT -5
Wally, you said your church was a better way. I disagree, I don't think your church is better at all. I think you are missing out so much on the blessings of God being bound to rules and traditions. Jesus came to give and enhance life not burden us with rules and traditions. Cast all your burdens on Him. He is the burden bearer so to speak. I find the concept of 'a better way to heaven' puzzling. As well as the 'harder way to heaven.' Interesting ideas relating to the one who said "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 12:54:49 GMT -5
Felicity, why is there sadness or sympathy for people who have left the "Fellowship" ? If you have something that brings you great joy, won't you want other people to share it too? Wouldn't it make you sad if the people you care about don't want to go to your favourite places, and you don't feel comfortable going to theirs? I do have great joy, freedom, peace of mind etc from my non belief in a God. So do you feel it is alright that I want people to forget about believing in God? It does make me sad that people I cared about couldn't share certain things in my life because they didn't feel comfortable with my beliefs and weren't allowed to go to a good movie or other things that are not allowed for no good reason that I can see. I went through my teen years virtually alone because my life was different from my parents life and I couldn't talk to them about anything because I wasn't supposed to be experiencing it in the first place.
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Post by What Hat on May 20, 2015 12:55:39 GMT -5
Wally, you said your church was a better way. I disagree, I don't think your church is better at all. I think you are missing out so much on the blessings of God being bound to rules and traditions. Jesus came to give and enhance life not burden us with rules and traditions. Cast all your burdens on Him. He is the burden bearer so to speak. I find the concept of 'a better way to heaven' puzzling. As well as the 'harder way to heaven.' Interesting ideas relating to the one who said "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." Almost tending toward universalism. Works for me.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 15:14:14 GMT -5
Workers seems to have quite different views on the issue but if they publicly support that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit they seem to be ousted fairly quickly - despite the fact that they baptise in His name - it's all a bit confusing? It takes up a lot of threads on this Board but in non 2x2 Christian churches I've never met anyone who opposes it. Your confusion is your own Ross. The workers are doing exactly what Mathew 28:19 advocates: baptizing folks in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. That is NOT baptizing in the name of your beloved man-made Trinitarian dogma. The reason the trinity takes a lot of space on TMB is because the fellowship is condemned as "non-Christian", heresy, cult, etc by people like you.
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Post by Mary on May 20, 2015 15:28:34 GMT -5
Take responsibility for taking space on tmb for talking so much about the Trinity. Now you are blaming others for your posts.
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Post by rational on May 20, 2015 15:34:05 GMT -5
Wally, you said your church was a better way. I disagree, I don't think your church is better at all. I think you are missing out so much on the blessings of God being bound to rules and traditions. Jesus came to give and enhance life not burden us with rules and traditions. Cast all your burdens on Him. He is the burden bearer so to speak. I find the concept of 'a better way to heaven' puzzling. As well as the 'harder way to heaven.' Interesting ideas relating to the one who said "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." Given the idea promoted that there is just one way to heaven the idea of a better way or a harder way flies in the face of logic. Sort of like saying something is "more unique".
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 15:49:07 GMT -5
Take responsibility for taking space on tmb for talking so much about the Trinity. Now you are blaming others for your posts. Is it OK to accuse folks of heresy, cult, and un-Christian on the grounds of non-acceptance of Trinitarianism? So what I'm to do is to not provide any feedback on false teaching or doctrine or criticism thereof. Ask no questions, seek no answers. Just fit in and everything will be okay.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 16:19:11 GMT -5
Because they have chosen the harder road to heaven. Wally, why is it harder - because a non 2x2 road is a narrower way with more persecution because Christians outside the 2x2 church are encouraged to more actively spread the Word? Why is the 2x2 road an easier road? Interested in your thoughts. whether or not if Irvine started the group it is patterned more closely to the 1st century church than other churches and it does preach out against worldly influences surpassed by no one(the complaints we hear here are testimony to that)...
we had a worker once tell us a story of when he went in amoung the hutterites here in wa state. one day he wanted them to come to a certain place so he told them to follow him but some took other paths to get there many didn't arrive on time and some got lost. the moral? Jesus wants us to follow after him(his ways) so that we receive the prize at the end according to his will. I think the 2 x 2's are the best manifestation of that they follow the 1st century church better than other churches. we know all churches can't be right Jesus told us that many would come in and lead them away and to recognize which are right or which are wrong we look to the fruit of the spirit they produce. are they covering ALL the bases or just some? a lot of churches preach just love and that's not all that Jesus preached(although a large part of it). they allow things in their churches that are not right.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 17:01:47 GMT -5
Wally you have just said exactly that by your statement "I have said we are a better way..." " because of what I've seen around me in other churches its not that hard to see..." a better way doesn't mean the only way...
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Post by rational on May 20, 2015 17:17:45 GMT -5
Wally you have just said exactly that by your statement "I have said we are a better way..." " because of what I've seen around me in other churches its not that hard to see..." a better way doesn't mean the only way... No, but if you are on the only way there is no better or harder way.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 17:50:01 GMT -5
Your confusion is your own Ross. The workers are doing exactly what Mathew 28:19 advocates: baptizing folks in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. That is NOT baptizing in the name of your beloved man-made Trinitarian dogma. The reason the trinity takes a lot of space on TMB is because the fellowship is condemned as "non-Christian", heresy, cult, etc by people like you. I'd be the first to admit that I'm completely confused about 2x2 man-made dogma - many people are. The confusing part as you know is that, in the main, they worship God as the Father only and then in total contravention of God's Word, they worship Jesus as someone who is not God. They should know it is in total opposition of what God says in the Bible but that doesn't appear to matter because the workers determine the doctrine. Man-made teaching usurping God's Word. That's probably why it get's certain labels. Is it better to rail against the labels and ignore what God says or obey God's instruction to worship Him only and ignore the labels? You're entitled to your opinion Ross, and I doubt anything I say would change your mind. However I would like you to understand that your religion is based on man's interpretation of scripture. When you refer to "what God says" or "God's instruction" it's simply what you think the scripture means. You think I'm in a 2x2 cult, while I think you're in a Trinitarian cult. You and Mary say I've used too much space discussing the Trinity so I'll make this do.
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Post by SharonArnold on May 20, 2015 17:57:10 GMT -5
Your confusion is your own Ross. The workers are doing exactly what Mathew 28:19 advocates: baptizing folks in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. That is NOT baptizing in the name of your beloved man-made Trinitarian dogma. The reason the trinity takes a lot of space on TMB is because the fellowship is condemned as "non-Christian", heresy, cult, etc by people like you. I'd be the first to admit that I'm completely confused about 2x2 man-made dogma - many people are. The confusing part as you know is that, in the main, they worship God as the Father only and then in total contravention of God's Word, they worship Jesus as someone who is not God. They should know it is in total opposition of what God says in the Bible but that doesn't appear to matter because the workers determine the doctrine. Man-made teaching usurping God's Word. That's probably why it get's certain labels. Is it better to rail against the labels and ignore what God says or obey God's instruction to worship Him only and ignore the labels? Now, I think this whole discussion is absolutely, certifiably insane. The stuff you quibble over is almost beyond imagination. (You really need to watch a sunset, the night sky, savor (truly savor) a good cup of coffee, walk your dog, pet your cat, plant a seed, spend some quality time letting your imagination soar with your grandchildren. But just be quiet, stop the noise in your head, and appreciate the stillness and the silence that underlies everything.) Though 2X2ism and every conventional form of Christianity has long receded from my rear-view mirror, sometimes the "I bow my head and worship" phrase still seems the most apt to describe the respect and awe I feel for something within the realm of my experience. It does not mean that I am literally worshipping the person or thing that gives me that sense of awe or respect. It is simply me acknowledging the power of God working within them/it. To my mind, worshipping Jesus is no different than this.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 18:46:20 GMT -5
Now, I think this whole discussion is absolutely, certifiably insane. The stuff you quibble over is almost beyond imagination. (You really need to watch a sunset, the night sky, savor (truly savor) a good cup of coffee, walk your dog, pet your cat, plant a seed, spend some quality time letting your imagination soar with your grandchildren. But just be quiet, stop the noise in your head, and appreciate the stillness and the silence that underlies everything.) Though 2X2ism and every conventional form of Christianity has long receded from my rear-view mirror, sometimes the "I bow my head and worship" phrase still seems the most apt to describe the respect and awe I feel for something within the realm of my experience. It does not mean that I am literally worshipping the person or thing that gives me that sense of awe or respect. It is simply me acknowledging the power of God working within them/it. To my mind, worshipping Jesus is no different than this. Sharon - we do watch the watch the sunsets and the night sky and enjoy good coffee etc But you're right - we need to do more of this. Really enjoyed your last line - I feel the same way. Just trying to draw out the inconsistency between what a 2x2 who worships God as Father only says and what they do every week when they sing hymns. But no-one wants to go there! Yes you've said that over and over that you want to make note of the inconsistencies, but when asked if these inconsistencies mean you are going to hell the answer has been no. So what difference does it make really and truly? It's just one more way to bash 2x2 doctrine which I really don't see as a necessity. It is what it is.
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Post by faune on May 20, 2015 18:55:14 GMT -5
Felicity asked me previously, "What have I said in my posts that make you wonder how long I've been professing?"
Felicity, it just seemed to me from your posts that you were still in the "honeymoon stage" with the 2x2's and have not been exposed very much to the inner workings of the group or its CSA scandals and the anti-Trinitarian rhetoric of workers. Although folks can think what they want, very few will speak out against injustices for fear of being shunned or silenced in meetings by workers through having their privileges removed. However, I feel if you would check out my 2nd post in this thread, you would see a number of areas that pertain to life within the fold, if reviewed with an open mind? But, if you are fairly new, perhaps you have yet to experience some of these negative aspects associated with professing?
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 18:57:40 GMT -5
Now, I think this whole discussion is absolutely, certifiably insane. The stuff you quibble over is almost beyond imagination. (You really need to watch a sunset, the night sky, savor (truly savor) a good cup of coffee, walk your dog, pet your cat, plant a seed, spend some quality time letting your imagination soar with your grandchildren. But just be quiet, stop the noise in your head, and appreciate the stillness and the silence that underlies everything.) Though 2X2ism and every conventional form of Christianity has long receded from my rear-view mirror, sometimes the "I bow my head and worship" phrase still seems the most apt to describe the respect and awe I feel for something within the realm of my experience. It does not mean that I am literally worshipping the person or thing that gives me that sense of awe or respect. It is simply me acknowledging the power of God working within them/it. To my mind, worshipping Jesus is no different than this. Sharon - we do watch the watch the sunsets and the night sky and enjoy good coffee etc But you're right - we need to do more of this. Really enjoyed your last line - I feel the same way. Just trying to draw out the inconsistency between what a 2x2 who worships God as Father only says and what they do every week when they sing hymns. But no-one wants to go there! Ross: I'd have a go at explaining it to you over coffee but I've already been told I'm obsessed over Trinitarianism and taken too much space on TMB. What you see as "inconsistency" is simply an unwillingness to accept man-made extra-biblical dogma to fill the holes.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 18:59:28 GMT -5
Yes you've said that over and over that you want to make note of the inconsistencies, but when asked if these inconsistencies mean you are going to hell the answer has been no. So what difference does it make really and truly? It's just one more way to bash 2x2 doctrine which I really don't see as a necessity. It is what it is. And in return have it said that we are in a "Trinitarian cult" - that's not bashing? Not sure that is necessary either I think the name calling started with the Trinitarians, not that either is right. The Catholics, who are the ones who thought this mess up in the first place if you know your history, were also considered a cult, so it seems to me that anyone with a different belief regarding religious doctrine or dogma is labelled a cult. Which means everyone is a cult to someone else. Makes the term a tad redundant that!
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Post by faune on May 20, 2015 19:01:42 GMT -5
Take responsibility for taking space on tmb for talking so much about the Trinity. Now you are blaming others for your posts. Is it OK to accuse folks of heresy, cult, and un-Christian on the grounds of non-acceptance of Trinitarianism? So what I'm to do is to not provide any feedback on false teaching or doctrine or criticism thereof. Ask no questions, seek no answers. Just fit in and everything will be okay. I feel the Trinity concept has become a fixation within the 2x2's along with the condemnation of "worldly Christian churches" outside their fold? However, when "one and only true church groups are compared next to one another, they seem to have a lot in common? Have you ever wondered why this is true? www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 19:05:33 GMT -5
Felicity asked me previously, "What have I said in my posts that make you wonder how long I've been professing?"
Felicity, it just seemed to me from your posts that you were still in the "honeymoon stage" with the 2x2's and have not been exposed very much to the inner workings of the group or its CSA scandals and the anti-Trinitarian rhetoric of workers. Although folks can think what they want, very few will speak out against injustices for fear of being shunned or silenced in meetings by workers through having their privileges removed. However, I feel if you would check out my 2nd post in this thread, you would see a number of areas that pertain to life within the fold, if reviewed with an open mind? But, if you are fairly new, perhaps you have yet to experience some of these negative aspects associated with professing? I've heard little if any "anti-Trinitarian rhetoric of workers" in the last 50 years.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 19:06:28 GMT -5
Felicity asked me previously, "What have I said in my posts that make you wonder how long I've been professing?"
Felicity, it just seemed to me from your posts that you were still in the "honeymoon stage" with the 2x2's and have not been exposed very much to the inner workings of the group or its CSA scandals and the anti-Trinitarian rhetoric of workers. Although folks can think what they want, very few will speak out against injustices for fear of being shunned or silenced in meetings by workers through having their privileges removed. However, I feel if you would check out my 2nd post in this thread, you would see a number of areas that pertain to life within the fold, if reviewed with an open mind? But, if you are fairly new, perhaps you have yet to experience some of these negative aspects associated with professing? Yes, there have been CSA scandals but that is true also of other sections of society: www.bbc.com/news/uk-32812449
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 19:09:09 GMT -5
Is it OK to accuse folks of heresy, cult, and un-Christian on the grounds of non-acceptance of Trinitarianism? So what I'm to do is to not provide any feedback on false teaching or doctrine or criticism thereof. Ask no questions, seek no answers. Just fit in and everything will be okay. I feel the Trinity concept has become a fixation within the 2x2's along with the condemnation of "worldly Christian churches" outside their fold? However, when "one and only" groups are compared next to one another, they seem to have a lot in common? The Trinity concept has become a fixation of people outside of the fellowship. They write books about how the 2x2 church is a cult, heretical, and unchristian because it doesn't accept the man-made Trinitarian dogma.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 20:15:29 GMT -5
whether or not if Irvine started the group it is patterned more closely to the 1st century church than other churches and it does preach out against worldly influences surpassed by no one(the complaints we hear here are testimony to that)...
we had a worker once tell us a story of when he went in amoung the hutterites here in wa state. one day he wanted them to come to a certain place so he told them to follow him but some took other paths to get there many didn't arrive on time and some got lost. the moral? Jesus wants us to follow after him(his ways) so that we receive the prize at the end according to his will. I think the 2 x 2's are the best manifestation of that they follow the 1st century church better than other churches. we know all churches can't be right Jesus told us that many would come in and lead them away and to recognize which are right or which are wrong we look to the fruit of the spirit they produce. are they covering ALL the bases or just some? a lot of churches preach just love and that's not all that Jesus preached(although a large part of it). they allow things in their churches that are not right.
I think the Hutterites needed Google Maps Agree that there are a mixed bag of churches out there. However, in my experience I've heard far more specific teaching against the world, flesh and devil since I left the 2x2 church and I've heard far more specific teaching about what it means to be a whole-hearted disciple. I've also seen far more teaching and action against heinous sins like Child Sexual Abuse (CSA). Why do you think the 2x2 church has not taken action against CSA by putting in guidelines and training? Have the workers simply allowed it into their church which would be the view taken by any outsider looking in? I figure because it would make the group more organized than they like and/or they would rather leave it in the hands of the Lord than say the police...
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Post by Roselyn T on May 20, 2015 21:21:16 GMT -5
Are your serious Wally ! More organized than they like .... do so research on how organized they really are ! "or they would rather leave it in the hands of the Lord than say the police" this is the reason there is still CSA happening and not being reported, then people wonder why the "Fellowship" is listed as a cult !
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Post by faune on May 20, 2015 22:06:33 GMT -5
Your confusion is your own Ross. The workers are doing exactly what Mathew 28:19 advocates: baptizing folks in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. That is NOT baptizing in the name of your beloved man-made Trinitarian dogma. The reason the trinity takes a lot of space on TMB is because the fellowship is condemned as "non-Christian", heresy, cult, etc by people like you. I'd be the first to admit that I'm completely confused about 2x2 man-made dogma - many people are. The confusing part as you know is that, in the main, they worship God as the Father only and then in total contravention of God's Word, they worship Jesus as someone who is not God. They should know it is in total opposition of what God says in the Bible but that doesn't appear to matter because the workers determine the doctrine. Man-made teaching usurping God's Word. That's probably why it get's certain labels. Is it better to rail against the labels and ignore what God says or obey God's instruction to worship Him only and ignore the labels? Ross ~ Words fitly spoken! Perhaps that's one of the reasons that the "one true church" claim gets "labeled" a cult about every where it springs up, as can be seen in this listing? All these groups surely have a lot in common! www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm Comparison of One True Churches
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