|
Post by withlove on May 29, 2015 8:05:28 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel like discussing it. I have discussed it a bit already in this thread. It shouldn't be difficult to find information about mind control. You are capable of that. Maybe I will start a book review thread the next time I finish reading one that discusses that topic. I have a feeling the first step would be to define what you consider "mind control". You don't believe mind control is possible at all so which definition I prefer doesn't matter.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on May 29, 2015 8:55:33 GMT -5
They have a lot of power, really. 1. Guilt 2. Behavior is different to keep peace 3. Behavior is different to have good standing 4. Feeling you can't or would rather not leave because of the repercussions (you reference in lower post) A calm conscience, peace, and being accepted as a member in good standing are three really big things. People can deny it, but if they actually experience the loss of any of those things, they feel bad or worse. It might not feel like such a big deal to have to make certain concessions while you live an otherwise free life, especially if you used to be entirely in line with the "rules" and now feel freedom in only toeing certain rules at certain times. Feeling that it's easier to stay in a church that doesn't inspire you because of the problems leaving would cause...I have no judgement here...I get it. You're getting negative return for your investment but staying seems better than leaving. It doesn't sound like you're too bothered by it, but I just wanted to point out the power that does exists. It is subtle. No guns and razor wire. Just social/emotional/spiritual/familial etc. influence. They really only have power if you allow them to have it....and since others close to me allow them to have power over them, it does affect me. There are no worker-imposed repercussions that keep me from "leaving". Mostly I don't want to ruin the lives of my parents and a few others very close to me by having them convinced I'm going to hell to suffer for an eternity. These are well-meaning people that I genuinely love and have good relationships with, and while they are not the type to "disown" me or anybody who believes differently...I just know how seriously they take this and it is a small price for me to pay to keep them happy. Also, I have no desire to explore any other church, so it's not like I feel I'm being denied a "real relationship with God" by professing. And I do love and admire the people I meet with...I have nothing negative to say about my experience other than I feel some of it is a waste of time for me because I often don't have much faith in what I am hearing. The repercussions in your case, then, are that your family will be hurt by their belief that you would go to hell. If they weren't taught that exclusive doctrine, they wouldn't feel that way. When you say you don't get much inspiration from meetings and that some of it is a waste of time, that could be enough to make your time and efforts a negative investment. But maybe you are getting more out of it than not. I understand the love and admiration and wanting to not hurt anyone!
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 29, 2015 9:12:35 GMT -5
I have a feeling the first step would be to define what you consider "mind control". You don't believe mind control is possible at all so which definition I prefer doesn't matter. I didn't say it was not possible. With a little creative water boarding, the application of the correct drugs, and some coercive persuasion it appears possible to at least temporarily alter the way a person thinks. Long term - there is not a lot of data supporting the idea. Margaret Singer spent a lot of time researching this concept from soldiers that the CIA claimed were brainwashed to the people who became members of Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church. After a number of years the results she published were rejected as being scientifically unsound and promoted what turned out to be an unreliable predictor og behavior. So, far from a summary rejection of the premise you are claiming I am wondering how you classify mind control/brainwashing/coercive persuasion/etc. and what supporting evidence you have discovered to support it. I am not certain that being involved in an group and not wanting to leave because of the social fallout or staying and following people who abuse children because you think they hold the keys to heaven can properly be called mind control.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 9:18:16 GMT -5
They really only have power if you allow them to have it....and since others close to me allow them to have power over them, it does affect me. There are no worker-imposed repercussions that keep me from "leaving". Mostly I don't want to ruin the lives of my parents and a few others very close to me by having them convinced I'm going to hell to suffer for an eternity. These are well-meaning people that I genuinely love and have good relationships with, and while they are not the type to "disown" me or anybody who believes differently...I just know how seriously they take this and it is a small price for me to pay to keep them happy. Also, I have no desire to explore any other church, so it's not like I feel I'm being denied a "real relationship with God" by professing. And I do love and admire the people I meet with...I have nothing negative to say about my experience other than I feel some of it is a waste of time for me because I often don't have much faith in what I am hearing. The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God". I'm sorry that's not something you have experienced. I hope that some day you will enjoy a living relationship with God. If you're not getting much out of the meetings then that's probably more obvious to those who love you than you realise. It sounds like you're surrounded by people who care about you. It saddens me that you feel it necessary to live a lie in order to keep them happy. Why not talk to them, and tell them you're struggling? You might get more support that way than pretending everything is fine when it's not.
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 29, 2015 9:34:25 GMT -5
The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God". I'm sorry that's not something you have experienced. I hope that some day you will enjoy a living relationship with God. If you're not getting much out of the meetings then that's probably more obvious to those who love you than you realise. It sounds like you're surrounded by people who care about you. It saddens me that you feel it necessary to live a lie in order to keep them happy. Why not talk to them, and tell them you're struggling? You might get more support that way than pretending everything is fine when it's not. I can understand where @haroldjj is coming from. At times it is better to 'go along to get along' but then that point comes when that is no longer the best course of action. While I lived in my parent's home I want along. Of course I did not have the additional burden of having a paranormal being in the mix but there certainly was a social aspect.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on May 29, 2015 11:22:50 GMT -5
I would agree they shouldn't have to. Though it's not like they're having to gather up all their bongs and vodka bottles and playboys to hide from them...more like the women putting on skirts when they normally wear pants, not talking about TV shows or movies around the workers, etc. In some ways hypocritical, yes, in other ways...don't people often act a little more proper and/or cater to their house guests a bit? And there's plenty of middle-aged to older people that don't have to change a thing...it's just how they live. Probably would be more the younger generation that has to "put on a show", as they are in the unenviable spot between living how they want and how some workers might think is best. It's often easier to just be a worker-pleaser when you have to, and live how you want the rest of the time, as opposed to having to worry about fracturing relationships and all the drama that can come with denouncing the workers. Or, maybe it's just me. I don't get a whole lot of inspiration from meetings, but at this point it's just easier to go along with the flow (though I try not to lie and keep my testimonies mostly in line with what I actually believe without offending people) and keep my life enjoyable, rather than deal with all the problems that would come from throwing up the proverbial middle finger. If a person wears pants, I'd greatly encourage them to wear them with anyone they associate with informally. (Yes, I believe pants are informal.) If you don't feel comfortable with some people, wearing pants, then is your conviction REALLY that it's OK? ... Paul wrote that he felt it was okay to eat meat offered to idols, but that he would refrain from doing so around some people who felt it was not okay. Would you ask him if his conviction was REALLY that it's OK? Was he being a hypocrite and teaching others that hypocrisy is OK?
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 29, 2015 11:54:03 GMT -5
They have a lot of power, really. 1. Guilt 2. Behavior is different to keep peace 3. Behavior is different to have good standing 4. Feeling you can't or would rather not leave because of the repercussions (you reference in lower post) A calm conscience, peace, and being accepted as a member in good standing are three really big things. People can deny it, but if they actually experience the loss of any of those things, they feel bad or worse. It might not feel like such a big deal to have to make certain concessions while you live an otherwise free life, especially if you used to be entirely in line with the "rules" and now feel freedom in only toeing certain rules at certain times. Feeling that it's easier to stay in a church that doesn't inspire you because of the problems leaving would cause...I have no judgement here...I get it. You're getting negative return for your investment but staying seems better than leaving. It doesn't sound like you're too bothered by it, but I just wanted to point out the power that does exists. It is subtle. No guns and razor wire. Just social/emotional/spiritual/familial etc. influence. They really only have power if you allow them to have it....and since others close to me allow them to have power over them, it does affect me. There are no worker-imposed repercussions that keep me from "leaving". Mostly I don't want to ruin the lives of my parents and a few others very close to me by having them convinced I'm going to hell to suffer for an eternity. These are well-meaning people that I genuinely love and have good relationships with, and while they are not the type to "disown" me or anybody who believes differently...I just know how seriously they take this and it is a small price for me to pay to keep them happy. Also, I have no desire to explore any other church, so it's not like I feel I'm being denied a "real relationship with God" by professing. And I do love and admire the people I meet with...I have nothing negative to say about my experience other than I feel some of it is a waste of time for me because I often don't have much faith in what I am hearing. I understand pretty much what you are saying and even though I quit professing I did try to uphold the standards as much as possible when I lived at home for the sake of my parents and other friends of theirs who I loved. It's hard though, at least I struggled with it. I did not like going to meeting after I quit professing. But I had to so that probably was part of it because I was given no choice. Because I quit professing I was told by the friends that I was being selfish and being ungrateful because of all the things my parents did for me. I was adopted so that was thrown at me often that they took me in, gave me a loving home etc. and how could I be so selfish and ungrateful. That of course, made me feel bad about myself. My self esteem was pretty low during those years and I still struggle with it a bit.
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 29, 2015 14:03:25 GMT -5
I'm sad for Honestabe, Withlove and kittens (or any others) who feel they must make adjustments to fit into expectations of the friends and workers. I'm especially sorry that you get negative feedback for what seems really minor to me. I guess I live in a place more like where Felicity lives. Or I'm old and already "molded." Emy ~ Unfortunately, your meeting location probably does have a lot to do with how you are treated along with the attitude of the folks who make up your assigned meeting area. However, not all friends are "friendly" and easy to get along with. Some require a lot of extra effort in the toleration department, as I discovered in the past. If you enjoy a pleasant meeting experience, count your blessings!
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 29, 2015 20:36:18 GMT -5
I can understand where @haroldjj is coming from. At times it is better to 'go along to get along' but then that point comes when that is no longer the best course of action. While I lived in my parent's home I want along. Of course I did not have the additional burden of having a paranormal being in the mix but there certainly was a social aspect. If I had the same exact beliefs as you, I think it would be a bit disingenuous for me to keep "going along". But since I do believe in God, and think there is some worthwhile inspiration that can be gained from the bible even if I believe a certain amount of it is hogwash...I feel I can enter into some of the good parts of fellowship, with people I genuinely enjoy. If I had my druthers I would probably just attend the Sunday morning meeting. But alas, I can give up a small amount of my druthers to let others keep more of their druthers. Druthers, what a fun word. Give this quote from Thomas Merton a go: My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you.
|
|
|
Post by emy on May 30, 2015 23:11:51 GMT -5
If a person wears pants, I'd greatly encourage them to wear them with anyone they associate with informally. (Yes, I believe pants are informal.) If you don't feel comfortable with some people, wearing pants, then is your conviction REALLY that it's OK? ... Paul wrote that he felt it was okay to eat meat offered to idols, but that he would refrain from doing so around some people who felt it was not okay. Would you ask him if his conviction was REALLY that it's OK? Was he being a hypocrite and teaching others that hypocrisy is OK? Good point
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 30, 2015 23:33:06 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on May 30, 2015 23:43:45 GMT -5
"The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God".
Felicity isn't it possible to have a relationship with God without having to "profess" ?
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on May 30, 2015 23:44:26 GMT -5
They really only have power if you allow them to have it....and since others close to me allow them to have power over them, it does affect me. There are no worker-imposed repercussions that keep me from "leaving". Mostly I don't want to ruin the lives of my parents and a few others very close to me by having them convinced I'm going to hell to suffer for an eternity. These are well-meaning people that I genuinely love and have good relationships with, and while they are not the type to "disown" me or anybody who believes differently...I just know how seriously they take this and it is a small price for me to pay to keep them happy. Also, I have no desire to explore any other church, so it's not like I feel I'm being denied a "real relationship with God" by professing. And I do love and admire the people I meet with...I have nothing negative to say about my experience other than I feel some of it is a waste of time for me because I often don't have much faith in what I am hearing. The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God". I'm sorry that's not something you have experienced. I hope that some day you will enjoy a living relationship with God. If you're not getting much out of the meetings then that's probably more obvious to those who love you than you realise. It sounds like you're surrounded by people who care about you. It saddens me that you feel it necessary to live a lie in order to keep them happy. Why not talk to them, and tell them you're struggling? You might get more support that way than pretending everything is fine when it's not.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 30, 2015 23:54:29 GMT -5
Faune I think this guy is spiritually abusing his listeners by charging them $140.00 to listen to his sermons.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 23:55:52 GMT -5
"The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God". Felicity isn't it possible to have a relationship with God without having to "profess" ? profess = born again
while there may be some kind of relationship when God first approaches you, I wouldn't consider that a real committed relationship with him until "born again" or "professing".
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 31, 2015 0:00:29 GMT -5
"The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God". Felicity isn't it possible to have a relationship with God without having to "profess" ? Roselyn ~ I appreciated you bringing up this important subject and would like to share this excellent article and video relating to the same. livingontheedge.org/christian-living/how-can-i-have-a-personal-relationship-with-god How Can I Have a Personal Relationship With God?
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on May 31, 2015 0:03:34 GMT -5
And that can happen between a person & God, a third person does not need to be involved.
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 31, 2015 0:18:19 GMT -5
Faune I think this guy is spiritually abusing his listeners by charging them $140.00 to listen to his sermons. Fixit ~ If you want to buy the DVD's for the complete program you can? However, these video presentations above cost you nothing but a listening ear for the truths shared here. The same goes for seeking after a personal relationship with God, too. No special environment or preachers are required in this open communication between you and your Creator. There is also no special group to join to be found acceptable in God's eyes. Just a humble and contrite heart in a sincere prayer of repentance is all that is required to set things right between you and God. The Holy Spirit does the rest in the transformation from the inside out over time.
livingontheedge.org/christian-living/how-can-i-have-a-personal-relationship-with-god
How Can I Have A Personal Relationship With God?
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 31, 2015 0:30:59 GMT -5
And that can happen between a person & God, a third person does not need to be involved. Roselyn ~ I agree. We need no other mediator than Jesus Himself as we pour out our heartfelt concerns before his throne of grace and experience renewal and rebirth by the Holy Spirit. biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-5.htm 1 Timothy 2:5
biblehub.com/hebrews/4-16.htm Hebrews 4:16
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 31, 2015 7:00:18 GMT -5
And that can happen between a person & God, a third person does not need to be involved. Really? Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.Sounds like there are multiple entities involved.
|
|
|
Post by faune on May 31, 2015 10:52:21 GMT -5
And that can happen between a person & God, a third person does not need to be involved. Really? Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.Sounds like there are multiple entities involved. Rational ~ I do believe you still envision God through the lens of the 2x2's? However, the authority of God is a composite of three different facets in one, which is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, similar to Jesus being described as "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." I feel this article describing the authority of God in the triune nature along with the demonstration of the same within the universe should help clarify the special make-up of God as One? www.provethebible.net/T2-Autho/E-0201.htm The authority of God ~ 1) the one triune God
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 31, 2015 23:54:33 GMT -5
Really? Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.Sounds like there are multiple entities involved. Rational ~ I do believe you still envision God through the lens of the 2x2's? However, the authority of God is a composite of three different facets in one, which is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, similar to Jesus being described as "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." I feel this article describing the authority of God in the triune nature along with the demonstration of the same within the universe should help clarify the special make-up of God as One? www.provethebible.net/T2-Autho/E-0201.htm The authority of God ~ 1) the one triune God
It was good enough for Jesus to refer to his father as a different being, so it's good enough for me!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 31, 2015 23:56:58 GMT -5
Faune I think this guy is spiritually abusing his listeners by charging them $140.00 to listen to his sermons. Fixit ~ If you want to buy the DVD's for the complete program you can? However, these video presentations above cost you nothing but a listening ear for the truths shared here. The same goes for seeking after a personal relationship with God, too. No special environment or preachers are required in this open communication between you and your Creator. There is also no special group to join to be found acceptable in God's eyes. Just a humble and contrite heart in a sincere prayer of repentance is all that is required to set things right between you and God. The Holy Spirit does the rest in the transformation from the inside out over time.
livingontheedge.org/christian-living/how-can-i-have-a-personal-relationship-with-god
How Can I Have A Personal Relationship With God?
I still think it's spiritually abusive to tell people you'll only give them the information if they pay $140.00.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 1:29:22 GMT -5
Fixit ~ If you want to buy the DVD's for the complete program you can? However, these video presentations above cost you nothing but a listening ear for the truths shared here. The same goes for seeking after a personal relationship with God, too. No special environment or preachers are required in this open communication between you and your Creator. There is also no special group to join to be found acceptable in God's eyes. Just a humble and contrite heart in a sincere prayer of repentance is all that is required to set things right between you and God. The Holy Spirit does the rest in the transformation from the inside out over time.
livingontheedge.org/christian-living/how-can-i-have-a-personal-relationship-with-god
How Can I Have A Personal Relationship With God?
I still think it's spiritually abusive to tell people you'll only give them the information if they pay $140.00. it's downright greedy
|
|
|
Post by mdm on Jun 1, 2015 10:46:15 GMT -5
Fixit ~ If you want to buy the DVD's for the complete program you can? However, these video presentations above cost you nothing but a listening ear for the truths shared here. The same goes for seeking after a personal relationship with God, too. No special environment or preachers are required in this open communication between you and your Creator. There is also no special group to join to be found acceptable in God's eyes. Just a humble and contrite heart in a sincere prayer of repentance is all that is required to set things right between you and God. The Holy Spirit does the rest in the transformation from the inside out over time.
livingontheedge.org/christian-living/how-can-i-have-a-personal-relationship-with-god
How Can I Have A Personal Relationship With God?
I still think it's spiritually abusive to tell people you'll only give them the information if they pay $140.00. For better or worse, there are individuals and groups out there who sincerely believe it is their calling to help people and churches on their spiritual journies through materials they put together. Since this is their work, it's also a source of their income, so it's only normal they would be charging for it. The more expensive materials would be aimed at congregations for their study groups and would include materials for the whole group. I don't think it's being abusive. It would be abusive if purchasing and studying the materials was presented as the way to heaven.
|
|
|
Post by mdm on Jun 1, 2015 10:47:25 GMT -5
Fixit ~ If you want to buy the DVD's for the complete program you can? However, these video presentations above cost you nothing but a listening ear for the truths shared here. The same goes for seeking after a personal relationship with God, too. No special environment or preachers are required in this open communication between you and your Creator. There is also no special group to join to be found acceptable in God's eyes. Just a humble and contrite heart in a sincere prayer of repentance is all that is required to set things right between you and God. The Holy Spirit does the rest in the transformation from the inside out over time.
livingontheedge.org/christian-living/how-can-i-have-a-personal-relationship-with-god
How Can I Have A Personal Relationship With God?
I still think it's spiritually abusive to tell people you'll only give them the information if they pay $140.00. For better or worse, there are individuals and groups out there who sincerely believe it is their calling to help people and churches on their spiritual journey through materials they put together. Since this is their work, it's also a source of their income, so it's only normal they would be charging for it. The more expensive materials would be aimed at congregations for their study groups and would include materials for the whole group. I don't think it's being abusive. It would be abusive if purchasing and studying the materials was presented as the way to heaven.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jun 1, 2015 17:05:09 GMT -5
I still think it's spiritually abusive to tell people you'll only give them the information if they pay $140.00. For better or worse, there are individuals and groups out there who sincerely believe it is their calling to help people and churches on their spiritual journey through materials they put together. Since this is their work, it's also a source of their income, so it's only normal they would be charging for it. The more expensive materials would be aimed at congregations for their study groups and would include materials for the whole group. I don't think it's being abusive. It would be abusive if purchasing and studying the materials was presented as the way to heaven. Jesus said "freely you have received, freely give" yet these folks are saying "we have some information that we believe will be spiritually beneficial to you. Pay us $140 and we'll send it to you". How would they feel about those who can't afford to pay $140.00 for the information? There's something wrong with this picture.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jun 1, 2015 17:15:43 GMT -5
For better or worse, there are individuals and groups out there who sincerely believe it is their calling to help people and churches on their spiritual journey through materials they put together. Since this is their work, it's also a source of their income, so it's only normal they would be charging for it. The more expensive materials would be aimed at congregations for their study groups and would include materials for the whole group. I don't think it's being abusive. It would be abusive if purchasing and studying the materials was presented as the way to heaven. Jesus said "freely you have received, freely give" yet these folks are saying "we have some information that we believe will be spiritually beneficial to you. Pay us $140 and we'll send it to you". How would they feel about those who can't afford to pay $140.00 for the information? There's something wrong with this picture. On so many levels!
|
|