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Post by slowtosee on Jun 1, 2015 21:30:16 GMT -5
For better or worse, there are individuals and groups out there who sincerely believe it is their calling to help people and churches on their spiritual journey through materials they put together. Since this is their work, it's also a source of their income, so it's only normal they would be charging for it. The more expensive materials would be aimed at congregations for their study groups and would include materials for the whole group. I don't think it's being abusive. It would be abusive if purchasing and studying the materials was presented as the way to heaven. Jesus said "freely you have received, freely give" yet these folks are saying "we have some information that we believe will be spiritually beneficial to you. Pay us $140 and we'll send it to you". How would they feel about those who can't afford to pay $140.00 for the information? There's something wrong with this picture. . .....and why do we have to pay for a Bible or concordance or Internet or......what a rip.... Rotten English men too, those Allan publisher guys....making people pay for spiritual stuff....unreal..... Alvin
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Post by fixit on Jun 1, 2015 22:01:40 GMT -5
Jesus said "freely you have received, freely give" yet these folks are saying "we have some information that we believe will be spiritually beneficial to you. Pay us $140 and we'll send it to you". How would they feel about those who can't afford to pay $140.00 for the information? There's something wrong with this picture. . .....and why do we have to pay for a Bible or concordance or Internet or......what a rip.... Rotten English men too, those Allan publisher guys....making people pay for spiritual stuff....unreal..... Alvin So do you think spiritual help is just a commodity that people who can afford it should pay for?
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 1, 2015 22:10:25 GMT -5
Nope
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Post by rational on Jun 2, 2015 0:07:33 GMT -5
. .....and why do we have to pay for a Bible or concordance or Internet or......what a rip.... Rotten English men too, those Allan publisher guys....making people pay for spiritual stuff....unreal..... Alvin So do you think spiritual help is just a commodity that people who can afford it should pay for? I think with a omnipotent omniscient god that the need for a written text is a crutch. The scripture should be revealed to the faithful. Save trees.
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Post by fixit on Jun 2, 2015 3:19:12 GMT -5
I'm struggling to see what costs $140..... I do remember though that when I last purchased my soft cover Old and New Hymn Book in the late 1980's that it cost quite a bit at the time but it didn't matter... How much does it cost today? Can you buy them online? Here's the $140.00 sermons: www.jeffvanvonderen.com/?page_id=95Here's the hymn book website: www.bibles-direct.co.uk
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Post by What Hat on Jun 2, 2015 3:22:09 GMT -5
I'm sad for Honestabe, Withlove and kittens (or any others) who feel they must make adjustments to fit into expectations of the friends and workers. I'm especially sorry that you get negative feedback for what seems really minor to me. I guess I live in a place more like where Felicity lives. Or I'm old and already "molded." Emy ~ Unfortunately, your meeting location probably does have a lot to do with how you are treated along with the attitude of the folks who make up your assigned meeting area. However, not all friends are "friendly" and easy to get along with. Some require a lot of extra effort in the toleration department, as I discovered in the past. If you enjoy a pleasant meeting experience, count your blessings! Faune, I have wondered from posts like this what behaviours you did encounter from the friends? Perhaps that's too nosy a question but if you can provide some insight that might be helpful. We discussed the concept of 'boundaries', so with a view to your personal situation, were some boundaries crossed?
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Post by fixit on Jun 2, 2015 3:26:27 GMT -5
Thanks - $140 seems a fair bit - not sure about production costs etc? I can't get into the Hymn Book section - seems like you need a password... Yes, it's to keep Anglicans out!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 3:27:15 GMT -5
Thanks - $140 seems a fair bit - not sure about production costs etc? I can't get into the Hymn Book section - seems like you need a password... The cheapest hymnbook is £8.00 sterling (or £5 each if you're ordering in bulk) including delivery worldwide.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 2, 2015 3:27:21 GMT -5
I'm struggling to see what costs $140..... I do remember though that when I last purchased my soft cover Old and New Hymn Book in the late 1980's that it cost quite a bit at the time but it didn't matter... How much does it cost today? Can you buy them online? Here's the $140.00 sermons: www.jeffvanvonderen.com/?page_id=95Here's the hymn book website: www.bibles-direct.co.ukI will sell those sermons for only $99, but I need two people to sign up. If three sign up, even better.
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Post by fixit on Jun 2, 2015 3:36:25 GMT -5
I will sell those sermons for only $99, but I need two people to sign up. If three sign up, even better. There's a lot of money to be made in information marketing. Doggie training, poodle clipping, stuff like that. My conscience wouldn't let me sell spiritual information - I think it should be freely received and freely given. Come to think of it, we give away a lot of information on TMB for free!
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jun 2, 2015 11:40:46 GMT -5
Lots of pastors give their sermons away for free. Around here, the ones I know post theirs online for free. Thankfully, you can listen to a lot of solid, Christ-centered preaching for free--my pastor's sermons included.
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Post by xna on Jun 2, 2015 11:54:46 GMT -5
This goes here. I was going to post in "funny" but it really doesn't fit there.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 2, 2015 11:58:40 GMT -5
Workers, pastors, etc. Etc. Need to eat and clothes themselves, like anyone else, and "free" doesn't do that. Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 2, 2015 12:27:49 GMT -5
Reminds me of a few years back, a professing lady's husband's funeral. He did not profess and the service was shared by workers and local pastor. A while after the funeral, the pastor came to me and was concerned how or if he could return the money to the widow ,she had given him for his part in the service, as he felt she could maybe not afford it and would gladly do it for "free. ". Her response. When he tried returning it, was, " no, it was the same amount I gave to the workers, and you keep it".
It increased my respect and appreciation for both the pastor and the widow.
"Pretending " to do something for free, and getting paid, not so much. Alvin
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 2, 2015 18:33:21 GMT -5
"The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God". Felicity isn't it possible to have a relationship with God without having to "profess" ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 4:53:42 GMT -5
"The whole point of professing is to have a "real relationship with God". Felicity isn't it possible to have a relationship with God without having to "profess" ? Roselyn, I was responding to someone who posted "it's not like I feel I'm being denied a "real relationship with God" by professing" which seemed to me to be missing the point of professing. I do not see why anyone would want to profess if they didn't feel they had a real relationship with God in this way, do you? The same sentiments would apply to anyone practising Christianity and not having a relationship with God.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 3, 2015 5:08:59 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what we see "professing" as ? I don't believe we need to profess through a worker to have a relationship with God.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 5:53:49 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what we see "professing" as ? I don't believe we need to profess through a worker to have a relationship with God. Yes, I understand that's your point of view. For me, professing is an outward acknowledgement of the relationship with God that I have within. I couldn't have one without the other.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 3, 2015 8:27:58 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what we see "professing" as ? I don't believe we need to profess through a worker to have a relationship with God. Yes, I understand that's your point of view. For me, professing is an outward acknowledgement of the relationship with God that I have within. I couldn't have one without the other. Thanks for your posts, felicity. I just want to reassure you, that if something unforeseen happened that you were "excommunicated" or whatever and couldn't "profess", you definitely could keep your relationship with God. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 9:02:43 GMT -5
Yes, I understand that's your point of view. For me, professing is an outward acknowledgement of the relationship with God that I have within. I couldn't have one without the other. Thanks for your posts, felicity. I just want to reassure you, that if something unforeseen happened that you were "excommunicated" or whatever and couldn't "profess", you definitely could keep your relationship with God. Alvin Thank you for sharing your perspective Alvin. I can't imagine anything I could do that wouldn't have an impact on my relationship with God, unless I was willing to repent and be restored. Hopefully I won't be tempted to put it to the test
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Post by What Hat on Jun 3, 2015 10:10:07 GMT -5
I will sell those sermons for only $99, but I need two people to sign up. If three sign up, even better. There's a lot of money to be made in information marketing. Doggie training, poodle clipping, stuff like that. My conscience wouldn't let me sell spiritual information - I think it should be freely received and freely given. Come to think of it, we give away a lot of information on TMB for free! One thing I learned from our trip to Las Vegas, NV. If something is advertised as "free", go in the opposite direction. BTW, there's a lot of "free" stuff in Las Vegas. How many people would attend church I wonder if the church's sole source of revenue was the admission price. What would the admission price be? Big church budget with 2000 members might be $5 million annually. So, if you attended once a week, that would be about $50 per Sunday service, or $100 per couple. Better stop throwing those nickels in the collection plate.
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Post by faune on Jun 3, 2015 11:56:30 GMT -5
I still think it's spiritually abusive to tell people you'll only give them the information if they pay $140.00. For better or worse, there are individuals and groups out there who sincerely believe it is their calling to help people and churches on their spiritual journies through materials they put together. Since this is their work, it's also a source of their income, so it's only normal they would be charging for it. The more expensive materials would be aimed at congregations for their study groups and would include materials for the whole group. I don't think it's being abusive. It would be abusive if purchasing and studying the materials was presented as the way to heaven. Maja ~ I agree. Also, churches purchase these work-shop presentations for study groups and $140 for the same with 10 DVD's included is not an unreasonable price for all the books and study materials that go along with it. However, like I pointed out earlier, the videos I posted cost nothing to view and gain some helpful knowledge in this area of spiritual abuse identifying traits within churches. Also, this man is a certified professional in this area and has written a number of books on this subject of spiritual abuse as shown below for anybody interested in learning more. www.thriftbooks.com/w/subtle-power-of-spiritual-abuse-the-repack-recognizing-and-escaping-spiritual-manipulation-and-false-spiritual-authority-within-the-church_jeff-vanvonderen_david-johnson/253067/?isbn=1556611609&mkwid=KfBIAOWs|dc&pcrid=70112875512&gclid=CNyDnc7_88UCFZEBaQodbCgAFA
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Post by faune on Jun 3, 2015 12:21:06 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Jun 3, 2015 13:22:16 GMT -5
Emy ~ Unfortunately, your meeting location probably does have a lot to do with how you are treated along with the attitude of the folks who make up your assigned meeting area. However, not all friends are "friendly" and easy to get along with. Some require a lot of extra effort in the toleration department, as I discovered in the past. If you enjoy a pleasant meeting experience, count your blessings! Faune, I have wondered from posts like this what behaviours you did encounter from the friends? Perhaps that's too nosy a question but if you can provide some insight that might be helpful. We discussed the concept of 'boundaries', so with a view to your personal situation, were some boundaries crossed?
What Hat ~ Personally, here's just a few areas where I feel any religious group crosses boundary lines when the leadership tries to dictate your life for you ~ such as what items you can have in your home and those that are not permitted, your dress and hairstyle, where you can go for entertainment, how to raise your family, and the unkind remarks of the professing Rumor Mill. I have had exposure to all of these areas personally as I'm sure many of the friends and ex-members have experienced the same. Also, one incident that I considered very intrusive in our life was at a time when we had just moved down South from the Northeast and encountered some unexpected set-backs in the area of employment. My husband's job that he had promised to him upon relocating completely vanished due to the recession of 1981. After trying to find employment elsewhere to no avail, we decided it was best that he returned to college for re-training and I returned to work. It was particularly hard, because we had three children 4 years old and under and the youngest was 8 months old when I return to work three months after our move. It appeared the workers didn't like me working with young children and felt I should quit my job in spite of the circumstances that we encountered. They even went as far as to suggest after three months in our new location that it would be better for us to move back North to where we would be better accepted, because we just didn't fit in that well down South in our assigned meeting. I guess the friends considered us too liberal for their ultraconservative area and relayed the same to the workers? As a result, we were visited by the overseer of TN and four (4) other senior workers to deliver their special message over a visit for tea. Needless to say, we both felt very insulted and their visit was more like "rubbing salt in wounds" than anything else. They made my husband feel like he wasn't really making an effort to find work after putting in over 100 applications, criticized him for his predicament, and chided me for not being a stay-at-home mother regardless of the situation we were confronted with. My husband never went back to another meeting after that visit and today is an agnostic/atheist. He lost all interest in God or church after that. Although we never took their advice and continued to do what we felt was best for our family at the time, I was especially shunned by many within the meeting afterwards along with our children. We were treated like "outsiders" on the "inside" for years until I had my own fill of the F&W's and left 14 years later in 1995. Why I stayed around and put up with such an attitude can only be contributed to the workers' fine conditioning regarding being damned if you left the meetings as well as God forsaken. Hopefully, you get my drift from what was shared above that we experienced plenty of interference in our lives that was worker-related without any justification. We never asked the workers or friends for any help or advice, but the workers felt they had a right to dictate our lives for us. That was crossing boundaries lines, IMHO.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 3, 2015 19:19:03 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what we see "professing" as ? I don't believe we need to profess through a worker to have a relationship with God. Yes, I understand that's your point of view. For me, professing is an outward acknowledgement of the relationship with God that I have within. I couldn't have one without the other. God see's all so really what is there need for "outward acknowledgement"? Is the outward acknowledgement to impress others ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 20:28:57 GMT -5
Yes, I understand that's your point of view. For me, professing is an outward acknowledgement of the relationship with God that I have within. I couldn't have one without the other. God see's all so really what is there need for "outward acknowledgement"? Is the outward acknowledgement to impress others ? straight from Jesus: Mat_5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 3, 2015 22:14:45 GMT -5
Faune, I have wondered from posts like this what behaviours you did encounter from the friends? Perhaps that's too nosy a question but if you can provide some insight that might be helpful. We discussed the concept of 'boundaries', so with a view to your personal situation, were some boundaries crossed?
What Hat ~ Personally, here's just a few areas where I feel any religious group crosses boundary lines when the leadership tries to dictate your life for you ~ such as what items you can have in your home and those that are not permitted, your dress and hairstyle, where you can go for entertainment, how to raise your family, and the unkind remarks of the professing Rumor Mill. I have had exposure to all of these areas personally as I'm sure many of the friends and ex-members have experienced the same. Also, one incident that I considered very intrusive in our life was at a time when we had just moved down South from the Northeast and encountered some unexpected set-backs in the area of employment. My husband's job that he had promised to him upon relocating completely vanished due to the recession of 1981. After trying to find employment elsewhere to no avail, we decided it was best that he returned to college for re-training and I returned to work. It was particularly hard, because we had three children 4 years old and under and the youngest was 8 months old when I return to work three months after our move. It appeared the workers didn't like me working with young children and felt I should quit my job in spite of the circumstances that we encountered. They even went as far as to suggest after three months in our new location that it would be better for us to move back North to where we would be better accepted, because we just didn't fit in that well down South in our assigned meeting. I guess the friends considered us too liberal for their ultraconservative area and relayed the same to the workers? As a result, we were visited by the overseer of TN and four (4) other senior workers to deliver their special message over a visit for tea. Needless to say, we both felt very insulted and their visit was more like "rubbing salt in wounds" than anything else. They made my husband feel like he wasn't really making an effort to find work after putting in over 100 applications, criticized him for his predicament, and chided me for not being a stay-at-home mother regardless of the situation we were confronted with. My husband never went back to another meeting after that visit and today is an agnostic/atheist. He lost all interest in God or church after that. Although we never took their advice and continued to do what we felt was best for our family at the time, I was especially shunned by many within the meeting afterwards along with our children. We were treated like "outsiders" on the "inside" for years until I had my own fill of the F&W's and left 14 years later in 1995. Why I stayed around and put up with such an attitude can only be contributed to the workers' fine conditioning regarding being damned if you left the meetings as well as God forsaken. Hopefully, you get my drift from what was shared above that we experienced plenty of interference in our lives that was worker-related without any justification. We never asked the workers or friends for any help or advice, but the workers felt they had a right to dictate our lives for us. That was crossing boundaries lines, IMHO. Faune, thanks for this answer which provides some insight. I don't wish to pry too much into what is a delicate and personal situation, but when you say that they felt you were too liberal and not fitting in - was there anything specific in their view, or do you think that the viewpoint was just unfair and really "out of thin air". I know that the latter does happen .. for example, Al van der Myden's story which is on the record here, but also others with which I'm acquainted.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 3, 2015 22:17:39 GMT -5
Review, - Sadly some messengers, including workers and other ministers etc are very poor "examples " of following Christ's teachings, but thankfully, the message trumps the messenger. Otherwise, people who became believers by hearing the message from the likes of Judas and countless other "ministers ", workers etc who "blew it", would be illegitimate believers. If a "crook" had introduced me to my wife, I would still love her and be very glad, for the introduction, even if he was a scoundrel. Alvin. Ps -. I remember workers discussing this at our house, after a worker had been involved in a sex scandal. What was the status of the people who professed through him?
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