hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on May 3, 2015 16:16:55 GMT -5
Yes, you are all quite right, my mistake. Isn't the point of dialog a chance to learn how others think? Does someone have to be "the only one right?''
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 8:44:02 GMT -5
I believe my brothers and sisters are who God loves, God loves everyone. So everyone is my brother or sister. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son! Everyone who loves god is not necessarily the same group of people who god loves. I, for example, would be an outlier.
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 8:45:02 GMT -5
Yes, you are all quite right, my mistake. Isn't the point of dialog a chance to learn how others think? Does someone have to be "the only one right?'' In the view of christianity, yes.
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Post by maryhig on May 4, 2015 12:01:05 GMT -5
I believe my brothers and sisters are who God loves, God loves everyone. So everyone is my brother or sister. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son! Everyone who loves god is not necessarily the same group of people who god loves. I, for example, would be an outlier. God loves you, just as much as he loves me or anyone else!
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 15:50:56 GMT -5
God loves you, just as much as he loves me or anyone else! You do know, of course, that there are those that god does not love. In fact there are those that god hates: Psalm 5:5 - all who do iniquity Psalm 11:5 - anyone who loves violence Lev. 20:23 - those who follow the custom of nations that god has purged Prov. 6:16-19, A list of 7 things - - Haughty eyes - a lying tongue - hands that shed innocent blood - a heart that devises wicked plans - feet that run rapidly to evil - a false witness who utters lies - one who spreads strife among brothers
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Post by maryhig on May 4, 2015 15:56:54 GMT -5
God loves you, just as much as he loves me or anyone else! You do know, of course, that there are those that god does not love. In fact there are those that god hates: Psalm 5:5 - all who do iniquity Psalm 11:5 - anyone who loves violence Lev. 20:23 - those who follow the custom of nations that god has purged Prov. 6:16-19, A list of 7 things - - Haughty eyes - a lying tongue - hands that shed innocent blood - a heart that devises wicked plans - feet that run rapidly to evil - a false witness who utters lies - one who spreads strife among brothers God doesn't like those things within us. He doesn't hate the person. He wants those things gone out of our hearts! Be honest would you like those things in a person? I wouldn't like someone acting like that, but I wouldn't hate the person!
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 16:05:45 GMT -5
You do know, of course, that there are those that god does not love. In fact there are those that god hates: Psalm 5:5 - all who do iniquity Psalm 11:5 - anyone who loves violence Lev. 20:23 - those who follow the custom of nations that god has purged Prov. 6:16-19, A list of 7 things - - Haughty eyes - a lying tongue - hands that shed innocent blood - a heart that devises wicked plans - feet that run rapidly to evil - a false witness who utters lies - one who spreads strife among brothers God doesn't like those things within us. He doesn't hate the person. He wants those things gone out of our hearts! Be honest would you like those things in a person? I wouldn't like someone acting like that, but I wouldn't hate the person! Let's just look at the first case: Psalm 5:5(KJV) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.It is not the iniquity that is hated. It is the person. Phrases like "God hates the sin but loves the sinner." are just feel-good catch phrases to make god seem like a good guy. But this is the same god that ordered the killing of innocent women and children. When this happens today, even in the time of war, people are convicted of war crimes. Crimes against humanity. If god were a real person there would be multiple trials where the court would find god guilty.
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Post by maryhig on May 4, 2015 16:15:51 GMT -5
God doesn't like those things within us. He doesn't hate the person. He wants those things gone out of our hearts! Be honest would you like those things in a person? I wouldn't like someone acting like that, but I wouldn't hate the person! Let's just look at the first case: Psalm 5:5(KJV) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.It is not the iniquity that is hated. It is the person. Phrases like "God hates the sin but loves the sinner." are just feel-good catch phrases to make god seem like a good guy. But this is the same god that ordered the killing of innocent women and children. When this happens today, even in the time of war, people are convicted of war crimes. Crimes against humanity. If god were a real person there would be multiple trials where the court would find god guilty. You always say this, but I believe putting to death is God's people putting wickedness to death in the heart of others with his word! God says thou shalt not kill. I believe he wouldn't go back on his commandment. He doesn't lie! And then I look at Jesus, and he was full of love, even asking for forgiveness for those who crucified him! And he's in Gods image! I just have to look at Jesus to see God, because the Spirit of God was in his heart!
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 17:59:08 GMT -5
You always say this, but I believe putting to death is God's people putting wickedness to death in the heart of others with his word! God says thou shalt not kill. I believe he wouldn't go back on his commandment. He doesn't lie! "Kill" is the weasel word in the phrase. Generally it is closer to murder. Murder is unlawful homicide. If the homicide is sanctioned by god it can't be considered murder. I assume this is a reference to: Luke 23:34 - Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do". Found only in Luke and not in all of the early manuscripts. Could this have been added at a later date? It would seem like a rather important announcement to have been missed by 75% of the recorders.
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Post by bubbles on May 4, 2015 18:10:34 GMT -5
Are you trying to suggest that the workers in Nepal aren't praying, just because the writer didn't feel it necessary to state the obvious in his email? Do you honestly imagine that in his "situation of helplessness" it didn't occur to him that praying was "the first thing to do"? And I'm equally sure they're not praying just for themselves and their own, but for the people around them too. Your post reminded me of what Jesus said in Matthew 6:"when thou prayest thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men" Something tells me they will be praying from their hearts continuously! Day and night..
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Post by bubbles on May 4, 2015 18:13:18 GMT -5
God loves you, just as much as he loves me or anyone else! You do know, of course, that there are those that god does not love. In fact there are those that god hates: Psalm 5:5 - all who do iniquity Psalm 11:5 - anyone who loves violence Lev. 20:23 - those who follow the custom of nations that god has purged Prov. 6:16-19, A list of 7 things - - Haughty eyes - a lying tongue - hands that shed innocent blood - a heart that devises wicked plans - feet that run rapidly to evil - a false witness who utters lies - one who spreads strife among brothers And which category do you place yourself?
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Post by maryhig on May 4, 2015 18:39:14 GMT -5
You always say this, but I believe putting to death is God's people putting wickedness to death in the heart of others with his word! God says thou shalt not kill. I believe he wouldn't go back on his commandment. He doesn't lie! "Kill" is the weasel word in the phrase. Generally it is closer to murder. Murder is unlawful homicide. If the homicide is sanctioned by god it can't be considered murder. I assume this is a reference to: Luke 23:34 - Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do". Found only in Luke and not in all of the early manuscripts. Could this have been added at a later date? It would seem like a rather important announcement to have been missed by 75% of the recorders. The only time I've seen murder in the kjv is when we're being told it's wrong to murder, I've never seen God saying to murder anyone! I've seen kill, and put to death. And both of those I believe refer to putting wickedness to death in the heart. Also, I believe God has in the bible what he wants to be in there. And I believe that Jesus did say that! Jesus also said forgive your brother seventy times seven. So he was very forgiving. Just as we have to be, when we follow him.
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 20:15:59 GMT -5
The only time I've seen murder in the kjv is when we're being told it's wrong to murder, I've never seen God saying to murder anyone! I've seen kill, and put to death. And both of those I believe refer to putting wickedness to death in the heart. In the first born of Egypt? It is pretty clear who was to die. How can you see the following as anything but the killing of people. I mean, they were stacking bodies - not cleansing the wickedness in people's hearts. "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." This is what people bring up when a child abuser gets caught - Jesus said to forgive up to 490 times. 489 children. Oh, he repented so we can overlook the sin.
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Post by maryhig on May 5, 2015 0:58:01 GMT -5
The only time I've seen murder in the kjv is when we're being told it's wrong to murder, I've never seen God saying to murder anyone! I've seen kill, and put to death. And both of those I believe refer to putting wickedness to death in the heart. In the first born of Egypt? It is pretty clear who was to die. How can you see the following as anything but the killing of people. I mean, they were stacking bodies - not cleansing the wickedness in people's hearts. "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." This is what people bring up when a child abuser gets caught - Jesus said to forgive up to 490 times. 489 children. Oh, he repented so we can overlook the sin. Firstly, the first born if Egypt was at the hand of God, not man! God has the right to take life, because he gave it! Secondly in ezekiel it's about God's people gone wrong, and he's talking about a cherubim at the threshold of the house, you can tell this has a spiritual meaning! I'm not going into the spiritual meanings of the Bible. But both of the above chapters in exodus and Ezekiel have spiritual meanings! Jesus said to his deciples, it is for you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God! It's not for everyone to know these things! God wants you to love him by faith! He will reveal the meanings of the Bible to those that love him in spirit and in truth! But I will tell you this! In Ezekiel, God told the man in linen to mark the foreheads of the righteous and they wouldn't be slain. In the exodus they too were had to mark the door posts for the spirit of death to pass over them. This is spiritual It says in the bible of the wicked that the mark of the beast is in their foreheads! They all have spiritual meanings! As for the child abuser, if they are a danger to children, they should be locked away, you say "we can overlook his sin" only the abused can forgive a sin done against them no one else! If a child had been abused and a 100 people say they have "overlooked" the abuse because they have repented, but the abused person hasn't forgiven, then they're not forgiven. You can only forgive those who abuse you, it's not up to others to forgive, they haven't lived with the abuse! Also, man can't judge those who have repented. Only God knows the heart. And it's up to him to judge! And he will decide who has truly repented in this life. Not any man!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 6:48:08 GMT -5
Are you trying to suggest that the workers in Nepal aren't praying, just because the writer didn't feel it necessary to state the obvious in his email? Do you honestly imagine that in his "situation of helplessness" it didn't occur to him that praying was "the first thing to do"? And I'm equally sure they're not praying just for themselves and their own, but for the people around them too. Your post reminded me of what Jesus said in Matthew 6:"when thou prayest thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men" Felicity - I am sure the workers are praying privately. But why wouldn't they encourage people to pray for the folk in Nepal? How often has a worker prayed with you together outside of a meeting? Before you rush and talk about hypocrites, where we are workers never pray with friends privately about anything. Why? I don't know but it's the most important thing we can do. When a worker comes to a bedside to visit a person down here they don't pray with the person. They generally sing a hymn. Why? When a worker comes to visit a person whose spouse has died they do not pray with the person. They generally sing a hymn. Why? Given our experience I don't find it surprising at all that a worker doesn't mention prayer in these newsletters. In our experience outside of meetings workers don't pray with people. Ross, in your first comment you said "I was struck by the fact that prayer and praying was not mentioned once" and now you're saying "I don't find it surprising at all that a worker doesn't mention prayer in these newsletters"! I'm surprised that you feel you have a right to pass judgement on correspondence that wasn't either addressed to you or intended for you. I'm sure it was understood by the writer that the intended recipients would be praying. I don't know how you can say "workers never pray with friends privately about anything". How do you know what's done privately? If I had a deep need that required me to ask someone to come and pray with me, I probably wouldn't be publicising the fact. Having said that, there have been times in my life - illness, bereavement and other problems - when I have particularly needed help from the workers, and I have never been disappointed in their response, and the love and care that has been shown to me. I don't see why you think praying out loud would be any more effective than praying in the secret place? Unless you think being seen of others to pray is more important than being heard by God?
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Post by rational on May 5, 2015 9:48:32 GMT -5
Firstly, the first born if Egypt was at the hand of God, not man! God has the right to take life, because he gave it! So god did kill the firstborn in Egypt. It is not a spiritual death that is being described. It is real humans being killed and their bodies stacked. Killed because they did not have a mark on their forehead. You can certainly attach a spiritual meaning but in the text it clearly says people were dying. 70 priests. I was following up on your post that if people follow the example of Jesus people should be forgiven 490 times. So when the offender abuses a child s/he should be forgiven 490 times. You can't have special rules for different people. That would not be just.
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Post by maryhig on May 5, 2015 10:17:36 GMT -5
Firstly, the first born if Egypt was at the hand of God, not man! God has the right to take life, because he gave it! So god did kill the firstborn in Egypt. It is not a spiritual death that is being described. It is real humans being killed and their bodies stacked. Killed because they did not have a mark on their forehead. You can certainly attach a spiritual meaning but in the text it clearly says people were dying. 70 priests. I was following up on your post that if people follow the example of Jesus people should be forgiven 490 times. So when the offender abuses a child s/he should be forgiven 490 times. You can't have special rules for different people. That would not be just. With all due respect I'm not getting into the spiritual meanings of the Bible with someone who doesn't believe in God! As for the death of the firstborn of Egypt, people die every day. If God takes a life, he has every right to, because he gave life. But life shouldn't be taken by the hand of man. It's a sin! As for forgiveness, as I said that's between the abuser and the abused, and no one else. If the abused hasn't forgiven, no one else had the right to say that they are ok! But people abusing children over and over need to realise the will face God! You can't purposely sin. If you know it's wrong, then there will be consequences, whether in this life or the next, whether you believe in God or not! You can see on here what's been happening to child abusers once they have been caught, hell turns round to visit them! When their sins eventually come out, life becomes very hard for them. But as you do keep stating that it's the parents responsibility to make sure they're children are safe!
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Post by rational on May 5, 2015 11:31:50 GMT -5
With all due respect I'm not getting into the spiritual meanings of the Bible with someone who doesn't believe in God! As for the death of the firstborn of Egypt, people die every day. If God takes a life, he has every right to, because he gave life. But life shouldn't be taken by the hand of man. It's a sin! [I was not talking about any spiritual meaning. I was talking about killing people and stacking their bodies. There is little spiritual about that. Given your explanation you have no problem with god killing innocent people. I do understand that is a belief you hold. You do realize that for a non-believer the concept of sin does not exist. Yes, I have said often that the protection of children is the task of their parents. I have also said that from all evidence god really doesn't care if children are being abused so it is good that humans step up to the task and root out the abusers. I think theists cling to the idea that people will have to answer to their sins, in this life or the next, because it gives them comfort that people who do evil will eventually be punished. There is little evidence that it is true.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2015 21:04:19 GMT -5
You have summed it up Ross, " In my experience workers do not pray one on one or in small groups with professing folk and my question was about that and why? "
I remember a few years ago when the Elder of the meeting passed away, his wife spoke in the meeting on Sunday morning a few weeks later about how the lady across the road had said she would pray for her (Elders wife) her response was " We don't need the prayers of people who go to other churches" !
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Post by whyisitso on May 5, 2015 21:24:17 GMT -5
Felicity - I am sure the workers are praying privately. But why wouldn't they encourage people to pray for the folk in Nepal? How often has a worker prayed with you together outside of a meeting? Before you rush and talk about hypocrites, where we are workers never pray with friends privately about anything. Why? I don't know but it's the most important thing we can do. When a worker comes to a bedside to visit a person down here they don't pray with the person. They generally sing a hymn. Why? When a worker comes to visit a person whose spouse has died they do not pray with the person. They generally sing a hymn. Why? Given our experience I don't find it surprising at all that a worker doesn't mention prayer in these newsletters. In our experience outside of meetings workers don't pray with people. Ross is well advised to use the words 'given our experience'. Because his words are simply wrong, untrue about myself and many other workers in situations he describes. It is quite appropriate for Ross to give his experience and also good that he understands he does not and can not speak of the fellowship outside his experience and hearsay from his circle. It was the same in my experience Review. There was no praying for the guidance of God at the beginning, middle or end of ANY visits workers had with me in the 12 or so months and many visits I had with the local workers (approx 8-10 different workers). There was however a lot of rule upholding and questioning of my allegiance to the workers. I can assure you it's not hearsay, it's fact I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just stating my experience as well.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2015 22:44:47 GMT -5
Dear Friends
It has been very heartwarming to hear of your desire to send help for the friends in Nepal. The older brothers have talked this matter over and have decided that money be sent via WESTERN UNION to Frykholm Jeyapaul, who is one of the brother Workers in Nepal this year.
One of our friends’ house was razed to the ground and another friend’s house has developed cracks. The quakes & tremors have eased off for the time being and they are gradually picking themselves up from the terrific devastation the country has suffered. No doubt … it will be a nightmare they won’t forget in a hurry. Our heavenly Father has been kind & merciful to the two brothers & two sisters plus our friends in keeping them safe.
Following are the details you may need to send to Frykholm the donations you are moved to send via WESTERN UNION please.
Name: Frykholm Manuel Jeyapaul
Address: Behind Zoo, Jawalakhel, Lalitpur Kathmandu Nepal. Phone: + 977-980 887 2201.
Western Union may require a security question & answer as well. You may please communicate to Frykholm what this question & answer is in your particular case. For Western Union users there will be no transaction charges for funds sent to Nepal till 15 May.
His Email address is: frykholmj@gmail.com
Thanks again for your kindness & thoughtfulness.
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Post by rational on May 6, 2015 0:15:26 GMT -5
The Red Cross and Red Crescent societies are supporting the Nepal Red Cross and distributing materials to those in need. The Siva Foundation and the AMA Foundation both are on the ground and working with those who have nothing. By nothing I mean no food or potable water. Donations to charitable organizations can reach many more people. Dear Friends It has been very heartwarming to hear of your desire to send help for the friends in Nepal. The older brothers have talked this matter over and have decided that money be sent via WESTERN UNION to Frykholm Jeyapaul, who is one of the brother Workers in Nepal this year. One of our friends’ house was razed to the ground and another friend’s house has developed cracks. The quakes & tremors have eased off for the time being and they are gradually picking themselves up from the terrific devastation the country has suffered. No doubt … it will be a nightmare they won’t forget in a hurry. Our heavenly Father has been kind & merciful to the two brothers & two sisters plus our friends in keeping them safe. Following are the details you may need to send to Frykholm the donations you are moved to send via WESTERN UNION please. Name: Frykholm Manuel Jeyapaul Address: Behind Zoo, Jawalakhel, Lalitpur Kathmandu Nepal. Phone: + 977-980 887 2201. Western Union may require a security question & answer as well. You may please communicate to Frykholm what this question & answer is in your particular case. For Western Union users there will be no transaction charges for funds sent to Nepal till 15 May. His Email address is: frykholmj@gmail.com Thanks again for your kindness & thoughtfulness.
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Post by withlove on May 6, 2015 1:57:05 GMT -5
I don't see why you think praying out loud would be any more effective than praying in the secret place? Unless you think being seen of others to pray is more important than being heard by God? You know how prayers in meeting can be so wonderfully touching and powerful? Hearing someone open up his/her heart to God, with all the walls down and to be vulnerable, grateful, interceding, etc. with you present is moving. Giving audible thanks for meals can be special. Being in the presence of someone praying silently can be powerful...bonding and sweet if 2 people are praying before bed, not hearing the words, but feeling connected in an awesome way. At conventions, it used to be that people knelt by or on top of their beds to pray...that was so sweet and bonding for me. Praying out loud or within sight might not be more effective as far as moving God to act on our behalf, but it is effective at helping each other...we can share the Spirit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 3:39:37 GMT -5
In my experience workers do not pray one on one n small groups with professing folk and my question was about that and why? In my experience they do.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 6, 2015 3:58:37 GMT -5
Well Felicity, you are the first person I have ever heard of having this experience. I spent 40 years professing and neither myself nor any one else I know has ever experienced it. So would you be able to tell us a little bit more about this experience of yours?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 4:26:39 GMT -5
Well Felicity, you are the first person I have ever heard of having this experience. I spent 40 years professing and neither myself nor any one else I know has ever experienced it. So would you be able to tell us a little bit more about this experience of yours? It didn't take you long to ask everyone you know Sorry, I don't wish to identify myself by posting details of my experiences.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 6, 2015 4:47:00 GMT -5
Peculiar sort of answer. Did you really have this experience?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 4:58:01 GMT -5
Peculiar sort of answer. Did you really have this experience? Yes, I have been present on visits where a worker has prayed aloud, outside of a meeting, and I've heard other people talk about it too.
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