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Post by mdm on Apr 30, 2015 9:02:30 GMT -5
When someone is going through a hard time, most folks in the Protestant world, at least around here, would say to them: I'll keep you in my prayers. However, f&w's would say at most: I'll keep you in my thoughts/I'll be thinking of you. I assume it's due to the belief that we should not pray for natural things. I also assume that that's why the writer of the letter doesn't mention prayer. Also, f&w's believe that troubles serve the purpose of drawing people to God, therefore they would not be praying for troubles be alleviated, but that they would cause those going through them to seek God/His true way. That's another reason, if not the main one, why the writer would not mention prayer. Personally I think that folks read into it far more than is actually there, and completely misread people's thoughts, actions and intentions. Not fair at all, being so very judgmental. Some folks can do nothing right in the eyes of others. IMO. I'm sorry if I sound judgmental, I was just trying to present my observations and conclusions based on 16 years of professing. I don't think I said what I believe on the issue or that I passed judgment on anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 9:18:57 GMT -5
Personally I think that folks read into it far more than is actually there, and completely misread people's thoughts, actions and intentions. Not fair at all, being so very judgmental. Some folks can do nothing right in the eyes of others. IMO. I'm sorry if I sound judgmental, I was just trying to present my observations and conclusions based on 16 years of professing. I don't think I said what I believe on the issue or that I passed judgment on anyone. It is an unfortunate mistake if we appear, even Vaguely, to paint/tarnish everyone in any particular group with the same brush, they are good and honest people, as well as not so good and honest people within any particular group. We have to be very careful how we choose or representative sample to determine a fair and valid outcome of the group as a whole. 16 years of professing in one particular geographical area may not necessarily reflect accurately the state/conditions in all other geographical areas within the world.
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Post by mdm on Apr 30, 2015 9:22:16 GMT -5
When someone is going through a hard time, most folks in the Protestant world, at least around here, would say to them: I'll keep you in my prayers. However, f&w's would say at most: I'll keep you in my thoughts/I'll be thinking of you. I assume it's due to the belief that we should not pray for natural things. I also assume that that's why the writer of the letter doesn't mention prayer. Also, f&w's believe that troubles serve the purpose of drawing people to God, therefore they would not be praying for troubles be alleviated, but that they would cause those going through them to seek God/His true way. That's another reason, if not the main one, why the writer would not mention prayer. How did you feel while you were in when an outsider would tell you he/she was praying for you? Your perspective is so interesting since you weren't b&r and your family wasn't in. I think it made most of us squirm, and we were unable to give genuine thanks to the person. If a friend or worker said they had prayed for us, though, it was very encouraging and touching. It's a project to change that bias in myself! Being more open about my prayers for others and believing that others' prayers can be effective. It's not the most natural transition, and it's humbling to realize how stingy and arrogant I was without knowing it. It didn't make me squirm I told others I would pray for them too, and I think I've said it couple of times to professing people too, when I felt it would be OK to say that. I always thought that f&w's pray for each other and for outsiders who are 'contacts', but that it was mostly about spiritual needs. And I also always understood that they believe their prayers would be heard. But I also always thought that f&w's would not like to be told by outsiders that they are praying for them. They just don't see outsiders as being on the same level or connected to the same God. I know our professing friends on the board will not like me saying this, but that's my honest observation based on 16 years of professing. I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule, and professing people who post here are certainly an exception, as by participation here they are going against the norm and expectations of the fellowship.
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Post by Mary on Apr 30, 2015 9:22:30 GMT -5
Thanks Emy - I think most of us understand this and relate to it because we were once there. I certainly don't want to be critical of the note - it's a nice note of the situation amongst the workers/friends there.... but I was struck by the fact that prayer and praying was not mentioned once. In any situation but particularly in a situation of helplessness it's the first thing to do. When the apostles and Mary and the other women were waiting in Jerusalem for the HS in Acts 1 they prayed without ceasing - I'm sure it wasn't for themselves and there own but for the people around them that Jesus had asked them to go to. Are you trying to suggest that the workers in Nepal aren't praying, just because the writer didn't feel it necessary to state the obvious in his email? Do you honestly imagine that in his "situation of helplessness" it didn't occur to him that praying was "the first thing to do"? And I'm equally sure they're not praying just for themselves and their own, but for the people around them too. Your post reminded me of what Jesus said in Matthew 6:"when thou prayest thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men" [/quote) ------------------------------------- SO you can apply that last verses to workers who stand up in Gospel meetings and pray or conventions or even people in Sunday morning meeting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 9:39:14 GMT -5
True, there is no telling what actually happens, weather one prays after promising to pray or not! And if one doesn't say they'll pray for someone doesn't mean they wont. And, it would be wrong to just pray and not do something if one is able to help. But isn't it true that f&w's don't tell each other they'll pray for natural things? That was my point. My husband and I were not raised in the fellowship, but we picked up pretty fast on the expectation not to pray for natural things. Just like you learn not to say "bless you" when someone sneeze, you pick up on what is appropriate and what is not. It doesn't mean that we ourselves or anyone else didn't pray for natural things, but it's not done in public - in meetings. True or not? Here is what dmmichgood (sorry dmmichgood, I can't remember how to tag you!) said about praying while she was professing: "...No, -I can honestly say that I never prayed about those kinds of personal things. I thought that we were taught to not bother "god" with "personal" stuff." professing.proboards.com/post/636967Or, an older sister worker once said in a meeting that the verses "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself" apply only to the workers, not to the friends. Yes, it is true to say that there's a greater emphasis on praying for spiritual needs in meetings. However, I don't think there's anything that we can't bring to God in our private prayers. I did read that thread where dmmichgood mentioned not bothering God with personal stuff, but honestly that hasn't been my experience. God wants to hear our prayers, and there's absolutely nothing that we can't talk to Him about. Rebekah went to enquire of the Lord (Genesis 25) when she had questions about her pregnancy. Elijah prayed for drought, and for rain. Yes, I have often heard it said that those verses about taking no thought for what you shall eat etc applies specifically to the workers, who go out in faith that God will see that their natural needs are met. The friends have to make provision for their own natural needs. I can't just decide not to bother going shopping this week, and expect that the food will miraculously appear on the table
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Post by mdm on Apr 30, 2015 9:52:33 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I sound judgmental, I was just trying to present my observations and conclusions based on 16 years of professing. I don't think I said what I believe on the issue or that I passed judgment on anyone. It is an unfortunate mistake if we appear, even Vaguely, to paint/tarnish everyone in any particular group with the same brush, they are good and honest people, as well as not so good and honest people within any particular group. We have to be very careful how we choose or representative sample to determine a fair and valid outcome of the group as a whole. 16 years of professing in one particular geographical area may not necessarily reflect accurately the state/conditions in all other geographical areas within the world. I appreciate you and respect you very much. But I may still chose to disagree with you and I hope you don't mind. I am not saying they are not good and honest people! I wouldn't have stayed in the fellowship for 16 years if I had thought otherwise!!! But they as a group do have a certain set of beliefs and norms, and am I wrong to put them in writing? Anyone can disagree and say it like they see it, but as you can tell there are some who see it like I do, so perhaps there is a chance I am not just making things up, no? I really don’t see how I am tarnishing all the f&w’s. I am just describing the general mindset and the norms of what is said in public. The 16 years of professing are not much compared to someone else's 50 years of professing. However, is it possible that when I came into the professing world with pre-existing beliefs, convictions and customs that differ from the 'professing' ones, I had to understand how they differ, if not for any other reason, then just to be able to fit in? I had to stop telling people I would pray for them just like I had to stop saying 'bless you' when someone sneezes or just like I had to stop wearing pants. And, my observations are not that geographically limited. They are based on living in two different states in the US and in one European country, plus visiting f&w's and meetings in several European countries, some of them for extended duration of time, having workers from different continents in my home, listening to workers from different states and countries at conventions, and talking to friends and workers in other states and countries.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 9:54:23 GMT -5
Are you trying to suggest that the workers in Nepal aren't praying, just because the writer didn't feel it necessary to state the obvious in his email? Do you honestly imagine that in his "situation of helplessness" it didn't occur to him that praying was "the first thing to do"? And I'm equally sure they're not praying just for themselves and their own, but for the people around them too. Your post reminded me of what Jesus said in Matthew 6:"when thou prayest thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men" [/quote) ------------------------------------- SO you can apply that last verses to workers who stand up in Gospel meetings and pray or conventions or even people in Sunday morning meeting. No, because they're praying out of the sincerity of their hearts for the edification of the church, which is totally different to those who pray to be seen of men and admired.
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Post by mdm on Apr 30, 2015 10:06:39 GMT -5
True, there is no telling what actually happens, weather one prays after promising to pray or not! And if one doesn't say they'll pray for someone doesn't mean they wont. And, it would be wrong to just pray and not do something if one is able to help. But isn't it true that f&w's don't tell each other they'll pray for natural things? That was my point. My husband and I were not raised in the fellowship, but we picked up pretty fast on the expectation not to pray for natural things. Just like you learn not to say "bless you" when someone sneeze, you pick up on what is appropriate and what is not. It doesn't mean that we ourselves or anyone else didn't pray for natural things, but it's not done in public - in meetings. True or not? Here is what dmmichgood (sorry dmmichgood, I can't remember how to tag you!) said about praying while she was professing: "...No, -I can honestly say that I never prayed about those kinds of personal things. I thought that we were taught to not bother "god" with "personal" stuff." professing.proboards.com/post/636967Or, an older sister worker once said in a meeting that the verses "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself" apply only to the workers, not to the friends. Yes, it is true to say that there's a greater emphasis on praying for spiritual needs in meetings. However, I don't think there's anything that we can't bring to God in our private prayers. I did read that thread where dmmichgood mentioned not bothering God with personal stuff, but honestly that hasn't been my experience. God wants to hear our prayers, and there's absolutely nothing that we can't talk to Him about. Rebekah went to enquire of the Lord (Genesis 25) when she had questions about her pregnancy. Elijah prayed for drought, and for rain. Yes, I have often heard it said that those verses about taking no thought for what you shall eat etc applies specifically to the workers, who go out in faith that God will see that their natural needs are met. The friends have to make provision for their own natural needs. I can't just decide not to bother going shopping this week, and expect that the food will miraculously appear on the table Workers' food doesn't appear miraculously on the table either. Personally, I believe that both preachers' and lay peoples' lives can be equally 'miraculous,' and both entail some kind of labor, just of a different kind. Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” 1 Timothy 5:17,18
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Post by hberry on Apr 30, 2015 10:37:46 GMT -5
Yes, it is true to say that there's a greater emphasis on praying for spiritual needs in meetings. However, I don't think there's anything that we can't bring to God in our private prayers. I did read that thread where dmmichgood mentioned not bothering God with personal stuff, but honestly that hasn't been my experience. God wants to hear our prayers, and there's absolutely nothing that we can't talk to Him about. Rebekah went to enquire of the Lord (Genesis 25) when she had questions about her pregnancy. Elijah prayed for drought, and for rain. Yes, I have often heard it said that those verses about taking no thought for what you shall eat etc applies specifically to the workers, who go out in faith that God will see that their natural needs are met. The friends have to make provision for their own natural needs. I can't just decide not to bother going shopping this week, and expect that the food will miraculously appear on the table Workers' food doesn't appear miraculously on the table either. Personally, I believe that both preachers' and lay peoples' lives can be equally 'miraculous,' and both entail some kind of labor, just of a different kind. This phrase was included in that context of Matt 5, the sermon on the mount, which applies to all his disciples. In the context of Matt 6, in which Jesus clearly stated a few verses up that we can only serve one master (“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."), it would seem most likely that Matt 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS applies to all disciples of Christ and builds on the idea of serving one master. I used to think this phrase was the equivalent of not working for a living, but I don't any longer. I see it as the right focus of my life as I work at whatever job I have--or don't have--and what is 'added unto me' are the things with which I am to be content (Phil 4:11, 1 Tim 6-8). John 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” And Romans 3:22 "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe." Just my thoughts that reflect where I am in my journey these days.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 10:42:23 GMT -5
It is an unfortunate mistake if we appear, even Vaguely, to paint/tarnish everyone in any particular group with the same brush, they are good and honest people, as well as not so good and honest people within any particular group. We have to be very careful how we choose or representative sample to determine a fair and valid outcome of the group as a whole. 16 years of professing in one particular geographical area may not necessarily reflect accurately the state/conditions in all other geographical areas within the world. I appreciate you and respect you very much. But I may still chose to disagree with you and I hope you don't mind. I am not saying they are not good and honest people! I wouldn't have stayed in the fellowship for 16 years if I had thought otherwise!!! But they as a group do have a certain set of beliefs and norms, and am I wrong to put them in writing? Anyone can disagree and say it like they see it, but as you can tell there are some who see it like I do, so perhaps there is a chance I am not just making things up, no? I really don’t see how I am tarnishing all the f&w’s. I am just describing the general mindset and the norms of what is said in public. The 16 years of professing are not much compared to someone else's 50 years of professing. However, is it possible that when I came into the professing world with pre-existing beliefs, convictions and customs that differ from the 'professing' ones, I had to understand how they differ, if not for any other reason, then just to be able to fit in? I had to stop telling people I would pray for them just like I had to stop saying 'bless you' when someone sneezes or just like I had to stop wearing pants. And, my observations are not that geographically limited. They are based on living in two different states in the US and in one European country, plus visiting f&w's and meetings in several European countries, some of them for extended duration of time, having workers from different continents in my home, listening to workers from different states and countries at conventions, and talking to friends and workers in other states and countries. A Maja, please feel free to disagree with me anytime, we all see things in different ways and to disagree does not show lack of respect at all, it simply shows difference of opinions based on our perceptions and personal experiences; by the way I do appreciate your posts also. We can all learn from others' experiences.
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Post by Mary on Apr 30, 2015 13:27:22 GMT -5
No, because they're praying out of the sincerity of their hearts for the edification of the church, which is totally different to those who pray to be seen of men and admired. Someone who says they are praying about a situation is praying to be seen of men but those who pray in meetings in front of people aren't? Illogical reasoning. Seems the opposite is true.
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Post by rational on Apr 30, 2015 13:45:22 GMT -5
Dimmichgood, If we cannot physically help,prayer of all the world christians as one voice is still needed. Needed for what purpose?Do you think god caused the disaster that resulted in the misery for the people in that area?If you look at it that way yes, god can be compared to Isis. What would the prayer be for? If you believe the earthquake was sent by god why do you think praying for the people there will change his/her mind?
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Post by withlove on Apr 30, 2015 15:38:14 GMT -5
Guessing that f&w pray for certain things in private when they haven't said that they do or will--and-- doubting that non-professing people do pray for things they say they will....is different how? Both are assumptions.
People who say they will pray for you in my experience do not then go on to make a long audible prayer in front of a crowd. Letting someone know they are being cared and prayed for is not remotely in the category of bragging or popularity points.
I can assume myself that what everyone posts here about their individual experience is true. You don't have to assume the same of me--but like others, I have lived or traveled or been around people from lots of places and what I post is based on that experience. I do temper my statements with exceptions, because of course not every professing person I've met and behaved the same way. But I'm not lying. When I was in, I did "get it." I'm not someone who has stumbled onto this site never having known the church. You can invalidate my experiences...it won't surprise me. Or we can be considerate and not take everything personally. So far as I remember, I haven't called anyone here a lier or an abuser or corrupt.
I'm willing to listen to others' comments, and I might disagree, but I'm not trying to personally insult anyone.
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Post by kittens on Apr 30, 2015 16:54:20 GMT -5
How did you feel while you were in when an outsider would tell you he/she was praying for you? Your perspective is so interesting since you weren't b&r and your family wasn't in. I think it made most of us squirm, and we were unable to give genuine thanks to the person. If a friend or worker said they had prayed for us, though, it was very encouraging and touching. It's a project to change that bias in myself! Being more open about my prayers for others and believing that others' prayers can be effective. It's not the most natural transition, and it's humbling to realize how stingy and arrogant I was without knowing it. It didn't make me squirm I told others I would pray for them too, and I think I've said it couple of times to professing people too, when I felt it would be OK to say that. I always thought that f&w's pray for each other and for outsiders who are 'contacts', but that it was mostly about spiritual needs. And I also always understood that they believe their prayers would be heard. But I also always thought that f&w's would not like to be told by outsiders that they are praying for them. They just don't see outsiders as being on the same level or connected to the same God. I know our professing friends on the board will not like me saying this, but that's my honest observation based on 16 years of professing. I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule, and professing people who post here are certainly an exception, as by participation here they are going against the norm and expectations of the fellowship. 1
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 23:52:09 GMT -5
When someone is going through a hard time, most folks in the Protestant world, at least around here, would say to them: I'll keep you in my prayers. However, f&w's would say at most: I'll keep you in my thoughts/I'll be thinking of you. I assume it's due to the belief that we should not pray for natural things. I also assume that that's why the writer of the letter doesn't mention prayer. Also, f&w's believe that troubles serve the purpose of drawing people to God, therefore they would not be praying for troubles be alleviated, but that they would cause those going through them to seek God/His true way. That's another reason, if not the main one, why the writer would not mention prayer. what a load of hogwash, how on earth do you know what people pray for people don't have to go about spouting to others what they are praying for, looking for brownie points wouldn't like to be in your shoes when God shows you what others had actually prayed for, be to late then to change what judgements you have made
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 4:17:33 GMT -5
When someone is going through a hard time, most folks in the Protestant world, at least around here, would say to them: I'll keep you in my prayers. However, f&w's would say at most: I'll keep you in my thoughts/I'll be thinking of you. I assume it's due to the belief that we should not pray for natural things. I also assume that that's why the writer of the letter doesn't mention prayer. Also, f&w's believe that troubles serve the purpose of drawing people to God, therefore they would not be praying for troubles be alleviated, but that they would cause those going through them to seek God/His true way. That's another reason, if not the main one, why the writer would not mention prayer. 1) what a load of hogwash, how on earth do you know what people pray for2) people don't have to go about spouting to others what they are praying for, looking for brownie points 3) wouldn't like to be in your shoes when God shows you what others had actually prayed for, be to late then to change what judgements you have made 1) Well I think that maja knows because she just told you that was what people "would SAY "
SAY: definition of word "say," speak, utter, voice, pronounce, give voice to, vocalize
2) Well apparently people were going about "spouting to others" what they are praying for, as witnessed by Maja again by posting what certain people "would say."
(see above definition of the word "say.")
3) Not sure that I would want to be in your shoes either, Virgo. I can think that "god" might roll his eyes & say;
"Good Lord, Virgo! -you mean to tell me that you spent all that time down there & don't know the definition of the word "say?"
"Go and write the meaning of the word "say" means; to utter, to voice, pronounce, give voice to, vocalize; -1000 times on that blackboard over there & then come back & I might reconsider your fate."
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 4:31:38 GMT -5
1) what a load of hogwash, how on earth do you know what people pray for2) people don't have to go about spouting to others what they are praying for, looking for brownie points 3) wouldn't like to be in your shoes when God shows you what others had actually prayed for, be to late then to change what judgements you have made 1) Well I think that maja knows because she just told you that was what people "would SAY "
SAY: definition of word "say," speak, utter, voice, pronounce, give voice to, vocalize
2) Well apparently people were going about "spouting to others" what they are praying for, as witnessed by Maja again by posting what certain people "would say."
(see above definition of the word "say.")
3) Not sure that I would want to be in your shoes either, Virgo. I can think that "god" might roll his eyes & say;
"Good Lord, Virgo! -you mean to tell me that you spent all that time down there & don't know the definition of the word "say?"
"Go and write the meaning of the word "say" means; to utter, to voice, pronounce, give voice to, vocalize; -1000 times on that blackboard over there & then come back & I might reconsider your fate."
another load of hogwash
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 4:43:31 GMT -5
It didn't make me squirm I told others I would pray for them too, and I think I've said it couple of times to professing people too, when I felt it would be OK to say that. I always thought that f&w's pray for each other and for outsiders who are 'contacts', but that it was mostly about spiritual needs. And I also always understood that they believe their prayers would be heard. But I also always thought that f&w's would not like to be told by outsiders that they are praying for them. They just don't see outsiders as being on the same level or connected to the same God. I know our professing friends on the board will not like me saying this, but that's my honest observation based on 16 years of professing. I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule, and professing people who post here are certainly an exception, as by participation here they are going against the norm and expectations of the fellowship. When an outsider says they will pray for me I take it as a kind gesture because they usually say it when they can see you are going through a hard time. There is never a double agenda in what they say. When a worker or one of the friends say they will pray for me I get my back up because they only say it if they think a person needs 'pulling into line' or is bitter. They never say it when you genuinely need comfort. I have never known it to be any different in the last 30 years. The scripture tell us that God hates a liar and I am very much aware of that, so I always try to be truthful. I admit that the fellowship is very inward looking, the focus is on the spiritual well being and welfare of the members, with very little concern for outsiders. It is a case, more or less, of charity begins at home. I have frequently stated on this forum that I am not an exclusivist, I believe that there are very faithful people in other churches, I have discussions with some of them and, truth be told, I learn a lot from them and find what I would regard as some godly behaviour somewhat lacking in our fellowship. Love one another is one example. Shunning strangers and being stand - offish is not a godly trait in my opinion. The only focus and concentration on outsiders is reserved for Gospel meeting time. Hebrews 13:1-2:,Let brotherly love continue, Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. There must be some faithful righteous angels in other churches too.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 5:22:38 GMT -5
I admit that the fellowship is very inward looking, the focus is on the spiritual well being and welfare of the members, with very little concern for outsiders. It is a case, more or less, of charity begins at home. I have frequently stated on this forum that I am not an exclusivist, I believe that there are very faithful people in other churches, I have discussions with some of them and, truth be told, I learn a lot from them and find what I would regard as some godly behaviour somewhat lacking in our fellowship. Love one another is one example. Shunning strangers and being stand - offish is not a godly trait in my opinion. The only focus and concentration on outsiders is reserved for Gospel meeting time. I can't say that has been my experience in the fellowship. Of course, there are times when we are all found lacking, and we miss opportunities where maybe we could have been more helpful, but I can't say I've ever seen "very little concern for outsiders" or "shunning strangers". Do people in your meeting not pray for perishing souls? We can all get on well with neighbours, work colleagues, other parents at school - wherever we meet people - without compromising the standards we try to live by. It would be hard to be an example if we hid away and didn't ever talk to anyone.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 6:56:54 GMT -5
I admit that the fellowship is very inward looking, the focus is on the spiritual well being and welfare of the members, with very little concern for outsiders. It is a case, more or less, of charity begins at home. I have frequently stated on this forum that I am not an exclusivist, I believe that there are very faithful people in other churches, I have discussions with some of them and, truth be told, I learn a lot from them and find what I would regard as some godly behaviour somewhat lacking in our fellowship. Love one another is one example. Shunning strangers and being stand - offish is not a godly trait in my opinion. The only focus and concentration on outsiders is reserved for Gospel meeting time. I can't say that has been my experience in the fellowship. Of course, there are times when we are all found lacking, and we miss opportunities where maybe we could have been more helpful, but I can't say I've ever seen "very little concern for outsiders" or "shunning strangers". Do people in your meeting not pray for perishing souls? We can all get on well with neighbours, work colleagues, other parents at school - wherever we meet people - without compromising the standards we try to live by. It would be hard to be an example if we hid away and didn't ever talk to anyone. What you are saying is right in theory, but I can assure you that in my experience as a born and raised person in a "divided" home, it does not really hold in practice. My observations are actually based on real life experiences. We all have differering experiences, and we can only relate to our personal experiences and observations. ps. My mother was professing, my father was not, I am professing and my wife is not and my children are not.I am placed in a very good position to see the differences in treatment.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 7:27:04 GMT -5
I can't say that has been my experience in the fellowship. Of course, there are times when we are all found lacking, and we miss opportunities where maybe we could have been more helpful, but I can't say I've ever seen "very little concern for outsiders" or "shunning strangers". Do people in your meeting not pray for perishing souls? We can all get on well with neighbours, work colleagues, other parents at school - wherever we meet people - without compromising the standards we try to live by. It would be hard to be an example if we hid away and didn't ever talk to anyone. What you are saying is right in theory, but I can assure you that in my experience as a born and raised person in a "divided" home, it does not really hold in practice. My observations are actually based on real life experiences. We all have differering experiences, and we can only relate to our personal experiences and observations. ps. My mother was professing, my father was not, I am professing and my wife is not and my children are not.I am placed in a very good position to see the differences in treatment. Different experiences, different perspectives. However, I don't think it would be fair to say that "it does not really hold in practice" just because, sadly, it hasn't been what you have experienced.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 7:42:22 GMT -5
What you are saying is right in theory, but I can assure you that in my experience as a born and raised person in a "divided" home, it does not really hold in practice. My observations are actually based on real life experiences. We all have differering experiences, and we can only relate to our personal experiences and observations. ps. My mother was professing, my father was not, I am professing and my wife is not and my children are not.I am placed in a very good position to see the differences in treatment. Different experiences, different perspectives. However, I don't think it would be fair to say that "it does not really hold in practice" just because, sadly, it hasn't been what you have experienced. Well I have been taught that just one example where a theory does not hold tightly in practice mitigates that theory or might even invalidate that theory. We all like to think and believe that our fellowship is the perfect way, but in reality it is not perfect, it has flaws like all other earthly things, and we must be wiling to see them admit that they are there and seek to correct them; I expect that it is what God would expect us to do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 7:50:07 GMT -5
Different experiences, different perspectives. However, I don't think it would be fair to say that "it does not really hold in practice" just because, sadly, it hasn't been what you have experienced. Well I have been taught that just one example where a theory does not hold tightly in practice mitigates that theory or might even invalidate that theory. Well you're the one who called it a theory 'Twas life I got, not theory'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 8:04:42 GMT -5
Well I have been taught that just one example where a theory does not hold tightly in practice mitigates that theory or might even invalidate that theory. Well you're the one who called it a theory 'Twas life I got, not theory' Anyway, God bless, keep on keeping on, fight the good fight with all your might.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 8:07:23 GMT -5
Well you're the one who called it a theory 'Twas life I got, not theory' Anyway, God bless, keep on keeping on, fight the good fight with all your might. You too
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Post by mdm on May 1, 2015 9:39:11 GMT -5
When someone is going through a hard time, most folks in the Protestant world, at least around here, would say to them: I'll keep you in my prayers. However, f&w's would say at most: I'll keep you in my thoughts/I'll be thinking of you. I assume it's due to the belief that we should not pray for natural things. I also assume that that's why the writer of the letter doesn't mention prayer. Also, f&w's believe that troubles serve the purpose of drawing people to God, therefore they would not be praying for troubles be alleviated, but that they would cause those going through them to seek God/His true way. That's another reason, if not the main one, why the writer would not mention prayer. what a load of hogwash, how on earth do you know what people pray for people don't have to go about spouting to others what they are praying for, looking for brownie points wouldn't like to be in your shoes when God shows you what others had actually prayed for, be to late then to change what judgements you have made sorry to have upset you, virgo! I don't think I have judged anyone, just made observations and conclusions. Like I said before, I know that f&w's pray for people, and I suspect they even pray for natural things for those they care for, but it's not something that's spoken out loud. I just thought of a time a professing lady (from your own country) told us how her church-going friends from the neighbourhood were collecting money to pave the driveway for a lady who lived "on the other side of the tracks," and how she refused to contribute, saying that the lady probably even liked the driveway the way it was. She talked about this so openly and cheerfully to a group of professing people I was in, that it was obvious that her refusal was based on some church belief/doctrine. This is just one of the observations I made that led me to come to my conclusions. Now, I don't think that most friends would have refused to contribute like she did, but her firm stance and open disclosure to us did not come out of nowhere.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 1, 2015 9:51:58 GMT -5
When an outsider says they will pray for me I take it as a kind gesture because they usually say it when they can see you are going through a hard time. There is never a double agenda in what they say. When a worker or one of the friends say they will pray for me I get my back up because they only say it if they think a person needs 'pulling into line' or is bitter. They never say it when you genuinely need comfort. I have never known it to be any different in the last 30 years. The scripture tell us that God hates a liar and I am very much aware of that, so I always try to be truthful. I admit that the fellowship is very inward looking, the focus is on the spiritual well being and welfare of the members, with very little concern for outsiders. It is a case, more or less, of charity begins at home. I have frequently stated on this forum that I am not an exclusivist, I believe that there are very faithful people in other churches, I have discussions with some of them and, truth be told, I learn a lot from them and find what I would regard as some godly behaviour somewhat lacking in our fellowship. Love one another is one example. Shunning strangers and being stand - offish is not a godly trait in my opinion. The only focus and concentration on outsiders is reserved for Gospel meeting time. Hebrews 13:1-2:,Let brotherly love continue, Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. There must be some faithful righteous angels in other churches too. I appreciate your thoughtful post on this. I have a bit over 60 years of experience with the fellowship, mostly in SoCa and some in New England. The inward focus has always been the characteristic focus--in fact it was mine until fairly recently. It was what was modeled by my family, the friends in the meetings I attended, and the workers.
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Post by What Hat on May 1, 2015 10:02:32 GMT -5
When someone is going through a hard time, most folks in the Protestant world, at least around here, would say to them: I'll keep you in my prayers. However, f&w's would say at most: I'll keep you in my thoughts/I'll be thinking of you. I assume it's due to the belief that we should not pray for natural things. I also assume that that's why the writer of the letter doesn't mention prayer. Also, f&w's believe that troubles serve the purpose of drawing people to God, therefore they would not be praying for troubles be alleviated, but that they would cause those going through them to seek God/His true way. That's another reason, if not the main one, why the writer would not mention prayer. I think this is accurate. But I see it as a good thing. "I'm thinking of you" is actually more inclusive than saying "I'll pray for you". Friends do, to my knowledge, pray for others, individually or collectively. I've never thought of broadcasting the fact as very useful, except in very particular circumstances. Anyone, Christian or not, can appreciate being "thought about" and "considered", so in saying that you show yourself to be broadly human and caring, not just Christian. And now, a song -
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