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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 14:02:56 GMT -5
Before the video of the shooting surfaced, the cop in SC claimed that the man he shot had attacked him. The video shows that no such attack happened. How many other false claims skew the "statistics"? The only video I have seen shows only seconds of what happened prior to the running. Not sure it makes a difference - shooting someone who is not threatening you or anyone else seems to be bad form. Seems to be a bad form?? Seems like murder to me far more serious than just a bad form? Shoot to kill and not just shoot to stop, which would more be like shooting at the legs, feet to hault the running away.
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2015 14:15:25 GMT -5
You appear to be a very intelligent man, so I should not have to explain or point out to you that he did it by innuendo. I am actually quite dim when it comes to inferring what someone else is said to have implied. Would you be so kind as to point out the comparison of the dogs to any group of people? Thanks in advance.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 14:25:24 GMT -5
You appear to be a very intelligent man, so I should not have to explain or point out to you that he did it by innuendo. I am actually quite dim when it comes to inferring what someone else is said to have implied. Would you be so kind as to point out the comparison of the dogs to any group of people? Thanks in advance. Well here is one for you, since we are talking about dogs, you can't teach old dogs to do new tricks.
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 14:37:05 GMT -5
No comparison, fixit.
Bob's right. That was a racist comment.
Just go out and ask any black man. Yep true, nothing annoys decent black people more than stereotyping them; some innocent decent black folks are treated like dirt, that is a fact. I have personally seen it and it made my blood boil every time. ps. Blacks are likened to pit bulls, and that makes my blood boil as well. A shameful comment fixit. This was absolutely not intended to liken people of color to pit bulls.
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 14:40:09 GMT -5
ps. Blacks are likened to pit bulls, and that makes my blood boil as well. A shameful comment fixit. There was no comparison made. It was an analogy to show how one might react to individuals of a group if that group by and large displays certain characteristics. Thank you Rational.
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 14:48:42 GMT -5
ps. Blacks are likened to pit bulls, and that makes my blood boil as well. A shameful comment fixit. There was no comparison made. It was an analogy to show how one might react to individuals of a group if that group by and large displays certain characteristics. Clearly I have been stereotyped as racist so every comment I make on this thread will be considered offensive. Rational is correct - it was intended as an analogy - not a comparison.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2015 14:56:35 GMT -5
I don't think it bothers you that people get shot like in the video clip of today. You've never expressed any sympathy whatsoever for anyone in that position. Think what you like. I hate it that anyone gets hurt. That's why I would advise anyone to do as the police ask. Parents and school teachers should advise that as well. It's not that simple. For example, if a suspect is hurt in the arrest process and needs medical attention should he or she just "shut up", which is the usual police response? Some suspects have died as a result of being ignored. The other side of the coin is that many suspects routinely ask to be taken to hospital for medical attention in order to avoid what is going to go down at the police station. So police ignore them. In one city the police are now required to take all arrested suspects who request medical attention to hospital. This puts additional load on the medical system, but at least fewer suspects will die as the result of injuries received during arrest. I mention this, because your advice does seem out of touch with what happens in some parts of the US and Canada. There are many potential hazards in doing just what "the police ask".
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 15:00:39 GMT -5
Think what you like. I hate it that anyone gets hurt. That's why I would advise anyone to do as the police ask. Parents and school teachers should advise that as well. It's not that simple. For example, if a suspect is hurt in the arrest process and needs medical attention should he or she just "shut up", which is the usual police response? Some suspects have died as a result of being ignored. The other side of the coin is that many suspects routinely ask to be taken to hospital for medical attention in order to avoid what is going to go down at the police station. So police ignore them. In one city the police are now required to take all arrested suspects who request medical attention to hospital. This puts additional load on the medical system, but at least fewer suspects will die as the result of injuries received during arrest. I mention this, because your advice does seem out of touch with what happens in some parts of the US and Canada. There are many potential hazards in doing just what "the police ask". What advice would you give? Can you see that there's a lot of stereotyping of police in your post?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2015 15:01:23 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Apr 8, 2015 15:02:47 GMT -5
There was no comparison made. It was an analogy to show how one might react to individuals of a group if that group by and large displays certain characteristics. Clearly I have been stereotyped as racist so every comment I make on this thread will be considered offensive. Rational is correct - it was intended as an analogy - not a comparison. Do you believe that black men are disproportionately more likely to attack than other men? Interesting coincidence, some of the racist emails discovered in the investigation of white personnel likened black men to dogs.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2015 15:09:12 GMT -5
It's not that simple. For example, if a suspect is hurt in the arrest process and needs medical attention should he or she just "shut up", which is the usual police response? Some suspects have died as a result of being ignored. The other side of the coin is that many suspects routinely ask to be taken to hospital for medical attention in order to avoid what is going to go down at the police station. So police ignore them. In one city the police are now required to take all arrested suspects who request medical attention to hospital. This puts additional load on the medical system, but at least fewer suspects will die as the result of injuries received during arrest. I mention this, because your advice does seem out of touch with what happens in some parts of the US and Canada. There are many potential hazards in doing just what "the police ask". What advice would you give? Can you see that there's a lot of stereotyping of police in your post? Police "see" suspects differently than a neutral observer. Studies have shown that this is the case. This doesn't mean they are bad cops, but dealing with potential criminals and also with threats to their safety affects their interactions, across the board. Then there are a small minority of "bad cops" who are hyper-aggressive. Unfortunately, these last far too long and can do a lot of damage. Other studies show that almost all of us view black people as a threat, even if we wish to treat them equally in general, and aspire to non-racist attitudes. As far as my advice ... there aren't any easy answers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 15:10:22 GMT -5
Yep true, nothing annoys decent black people more than stereotyping them; some innocent decent black folks are treated like dirt, that is a fact. I have personally seen it and it made my blood boil every time. ps. Blacks are likened to pit bulls, and that makes my blood boil as well. A shameful comment fixit. This was absolutely not intended to liken people of color to pit bulls. Just to let everyone know, fixit and I corresponded by PM and I am satisfied and convinced that it was not meant to be a racist comment and I am grateful to him for clarifying the whole matter. I do not believe that he is a racist in anyway. Now let brotherly love continue.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 8, 2015 15:10:48 GMT -5
There was no comparison made. It was an analogy to show how one might react to individuals of a group if that group by and large displays certain characteristics. Clearly I have been stereotyped as racist so every comment I make on this thread will be considered offensive. Rational is correct - it was intended as an analogy - not a comparison. I agree. Any comparison was inadvertent.
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 15:23:18 GMT -5
Clearly I have been stereotyped as racist so every comment I make on this thread will be considered offensive. Rational is correct - it was intended as an analogy - not a comparison. Do you believe that black men are disproportionately more violent or dangerous compared to other men? What does the data tell us?
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 15:36:12 GMT -5
What advice would you give? Can you see that there's a lot of stereotyping of police in your post? Police "see" suspects differently than a neutral observer. Studies have shown that this is the case. This doesn't mean they are bad cops, but dealing with potential criminals and also with threats to their safety affects their interactions, across the board. Then there are a small minority of "bad cops" who are hyper-aggressive. Unfortunately, these last far too long and can do a lot of damage. Other studies show that almost all of us view black people as a threat, even if we wish to treat them equally in general, and aspire to non-racist attitudes. As far as my advice ... there aren't any easy answers. I'm largely if not entirely in agreement with you. A problem I have with threads like this is the stereotyping of police - and society. The US has come a long way in race relations over the last 100 years. Yes, there's a way to go yet.
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Post by matisse on Apr 8, 2015 15:50:54 GMT -5
Do you believe that black men are disproportionately more violent or dangerous compared to other men? What does the data tell us? I would like to see data that takes poverty rates and neighborhood circumstances into account. The following looks at violence from a different angle; when socioeconomics are taken into account the rates of violence (per 1000) of poor urban blacks and poor urban whites are quite similar. Household Poverty And Nonfatal Violent Victimization, 2008–2012 Marcus Berzofsky, Dr.P.H., RTI International, Lance Couzens, RTI International, Erika Harrell, Ph.D., BJS Statistician, Lynn Langton, Ph.D., BJS Statistician, Hope Smiley-McDonald, Ph.D., RTI International
November 18, 2014 NCJ 248384
Presents findings from 2008 to 2012 on the relationship between households that were above or below the federal poverty level and nonfatal violent victimization, including rape or sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault. This report examines the violent victimization experiences of persons living in households at various levels of poverty, focusing on type of violence, victim's race or Hispanic origin, and location of residence. It also examines the percentage of violent victimizations reported to the police by poverty level. Data are from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which collects information on nonfatal crimes, reported and not reported to the police, against persons age 12 or older from a nationally representative sample of U.S. households. During 2012, about 92,390 households and 162,940 persons were interviewed for the NCVS.
Highlights:
For the period 2008–12— Persons in poor households at or below the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) (39.8 per 1,000) had more than double the rate of violent victimization as persons in high-income households (16.9 per 1,000). Persons in poor households had a higher rate of violence involving a firearm (3.5 per 1,000) compared to persons above the FPL (0.8–2.5 per 1,000). The overall pattern of poor persons having the highest rates of violent victimization was consistent for both whites and blacks. However, the rate of violent victimization for Hispanics did not vary across poverty levels. Poor Hispanics (25.3 per 1,000) had lower rates of violence compared to poor whites (46.4 per 1,000) and poor blacks (43.4 per 1,000). Poor persons living in urban areas (43.9 per 1,000) had violent victimization rates similar to poor persons living in rural areas (38.8 per 1,000). Poor urban blacks (51.3 per 1,000) had rates of violence similar to poor urban whites (56.4 per 1,000).
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 16:03:21 GMT -5
I'm absolutely not saying that people of color are inherently more liable to criminality because of race.
Just that as it stands right now, young black men are more likely to commit crimes than young white men.
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Post by matisse on Apr 8, 2015 16:41:47 GMT -5
I'd think if you search on proboards you'll find a forum that will; one way or another be related to the topic of discussion. Post there & you'll likely get response from informed American posters, civil rights advocates, law enforcement officers etc. You might also ignore topics you are not interested in.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:04:35 GMT -5
You very obviously have never lived as an ethnic minority. What did I say in the post that led you to this conclusion. Be specific. It's not what you said. It was your insistent urging that people should withhold their personal judgment until it was proven that there was no reasonable expectation that the police officer had some justification. A person who properly empathizes with the oppressed minority experience would be more apt to respond in the manner of certainty that most Americans expected Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be found guilty. I know, everyone is considered innocent until proven guilty, and there are plenty of reasons why even this police officer may want to plead not guilty -- but I really don't think you could think of a convincing argument from your perspective that this cop is innocent. The very best I would say about him is that he had a very bad day, in shich case he would not be fit for duty, or an extremely bad temper and was too narcissistic to allow anyone to escape him. Your convincing argument would have to explain why a cop should intentionally kill a man over a broken taillight. Did you really expect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be found not guilty of anything her was charged with?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:07:40 GMT -5
...or how one might react to individuals of a group if one believes (or wants to believe) that group "by and large displays certain characteristics." There are deeply held stereotypes in play here. Sounds like you strongly believe your rhetoric. Be rational. It's not rhetoric -- it's commonly accepted knowledge even among racists.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:09:18 GMT -5
The only video I have seen shows only seconds of what happened prior to the running. Not sure it makes a difference - shooting someone who is not threatening you or anyone else seems to be bad form. Seems to be a bad form?? Seems like murder to me far more serious than just a bad form? Shoot to kill and not just shoot to stop, which would more be like shooting at the legs, feet to hault the running away. Actually, policemen are not trained to "shoot to stop". They are trained to shoot to the largest body mass, which normally means the torso. His problem was that he had no reason whatsoever to even pull out his gun.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:11:29 GMT -5
You appear to be a very intelligent man, so I should not have to explain or point out to you that he did it by innuendo. I am actually quite dim when it comes to inferring what someone else is said to have implied. Would you be so kind as to point out the comparison of the dogs to any group of people? Thanks in advance. Here's one. The intra-office memo in the Ferguson PD referring to black people on food stamps as "mongrel dogs".
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:14:52 GMT -5
Yep true, nothing annoys decent black people more than stereotyping them; some innocent decent black folks are treated like dirt, that is a fact. I have personally seen it and it made my blood boil every time. ps. Blacks are likened to pit bulls, and that makes my blood boil as well. A shameful comment fixit. This was absolutely not intended to liken people of color to pit bulls. Then you need to be more sensitive about how other people will interpret what you say, because not everyone has had your life experience may misunderstand your world view as poorly as you understand theirs.
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Post by matisse on Apr 8, 2015 17:15:49 GMT -5
I'd think if you search on proboards you'll find a forum that will; one way or another be related to the topic of discussion. Post there & you'll likely get response from informed American posters, civil rights advocates, law enforcement officers etc. You might also ignore topics you are not interested in. ...and, by the way, race and racism are topics relevant to the F&W.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 17:20:01 GMT -5
Seems to be a bad form?? Seems like murder to me far more serious than just a bad form? Shoot to kill and not just shoot to stop, which would more be like shooting at the legs, feet to hault the running away. Actually, policemen are not trained to "shoot to stop". They are trained to shoot to the largest body mass, which normally means the torso. His problem was that he had no reason whatsoever to even pull out his gun. So they are trained to shoot to kill whatever the circumstances? Well if that is so then people should not run away from them and not expect to get a bullet in the back, unfortunately. How else would the police be able to successfully stop a suspect? I have sympathies both sides since my son is a police officer. I guess a warning shout: stop or I will shoot should stop an runner in his tract if he has nothing to hide.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:26:00 GMT -5
What advice would you give? Can you see that there's a lot of stereotyping of police in your post? Police "see" suspects differently than a neutral observer. Studies have shown that this is the case. This doesn't mean they are bad cops, but dealing with potential criminals and also with threats to their safety affects their interactions, across the board. The real problem is that cops have forgotten about "protecting and serving" citizens and confined their concerns to finding criminals. And in the US the military is loading police forces with military equipment that cops are advised to "become familiar with", so they treat "citizens" as the enemy. Older and retired competent police officers have not spared their words concerning the deterioration of police work and police attitudes. The consolation is that most people actually survive life in a police state. They just learn to do without their liberties and play dumb.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:26:26 GMT -5
What advice would you give? Can you see that there's a lot of stereotyping of police in your post? Police "see" suspects differently than a neutral observer. Studies have shown that this is the case. This doesn't mean they are bad cops, but dealing with potential criminals and also with threats to their safety affects their interactions, across the board. The real problem is that cops have forgotten about "protecting and serving" citizens and confined their concerns to finding criminals. And in the US the military is loading police forces with military equipment that cops are advised to "become familiar with", so they treat "citizens" as the enemy. Older and retired competent police officers have not spared their words concerning the deterioration of police work and police attitudes. The consolation is that most people actually survive life in a police state. They just learn to do without their liberties and play dumb.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2015 17:33:06 GMT -5
Can someone please explain the relevance of a thread/discussion on a shooting by a policeman to this forum/TMB? If it was on the secular board of the forum I'd have a clue, but it isn't even there! It's quite simple. The F&W are no less racist than anyone else in the country, and some of them are rabidly racist. They have a history of being not only non-supportive of civil rights, but adamantly against them. And in the last decade have maintained a separate convention for black people, long after the desegregation bill of the 1960's.
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