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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 1:55:29 GMT -5
No, Papa was lecturing his daughter about being a good girl No mention of religion anywhere. A friend of mine embarrassed me a few weeks ago by lecturing some hapless woman in a supermarket about using plastic bags. My friend is an anarchic, anti-religious preacher of all things green.
"Men as trees" comes from the bible. A guy I once knew, a devout atheist, loved Bob Dylan. He called him "god." Dylan was some great tree to him. Same with John Lennon. Imagine a world without God he sang. I lived not far from his memorial in Central Park once - I would see people doing pilgrimages to his site every day. Another god, another tree.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 27, 2015 2:33:38 GMT -5
No, Papa was lecturing his daughter about being a good girl No mention of religion anywhere. A friend of mine embarrassed me a few weeks ago by lecturing some hapless woman in a supermarket about using plastic bags. My friend is an anarchic, anti-religious preacher of all things green. "Men as trees" comes from the bible. A guy I once knew, a devout atheist, loved Bob Dylan. He called him "god." Dylan was some great tree to him. Same with John Lennon. Imagine a world without God he sang. I lived not far from his memorial in Central Park once - I would see people doing pilgrimages to his site every day. Another god, another tree. Sounds like people I know who worship workers ! We still hear what John Hardie, Bert Cameron, Willie Jameison etc said !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 3:01:06 GMT -5
No, Papa was lecturing his daughter about being a good girl No mention of religion anywhere. A friend of mine embarrassed me a few weeks ago by lecturing some hapless woman in a supermarket about using plastic bags. My friend is an anarchic, anti-religious preacher of all things green. "Men as trees" comes from the bible. A guy I once knew, a devout atheist, loved Bob Dylan. He called him "god." Dylan was some great tree to him. Same with John Lennon. Imagine a world without God he sang. I lived not far from his memorial in Central Park once - I would see people doing pilgrimages to his site every day. Another god, another tree. Sounds like people I know who worship workers ! We still hear what John Hardie, Bert Cameron, Willie Jameison etc said ! we still hear of what Adam, Cain, Able, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, David,------------------Peter, James, John, Paul, Philip,------------etc did, get the picture?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 3:02:23 GMT -5
Yes, I recall many things some Workers said. When I have mentioned it back to them years later they can't remember! As a young man one thing I remember a Worker saying, "I hope that one day I get to thank Paul for the many things he wrote." That is faith!!! I remember what a Worker was remembering about another Worker, Paul, and what he had written. Compare that to the sad, egotistical, broken marriage, substance abusing, self centered, self important typical "celebrity" of the modern age.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 27, 2015 3:10:09 GMT -5
Sounds like people I know who worship workers ! We still hear what John Hardie, Bert Cameron, Willie Jameison etc said ! we still hear of what Adam, Cain, Able, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, David,------------------Peter, James, John, Paul, Philip,------------etc did, get the picture? So are you going to write your own Bible with what the workers said, Virgo ! The workers are not Peter, James, John, Paul, Noah , Issac, Jacob etc !! The workers have not seen Jesus ! Big difference !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 3:17:18 GMT -5
No, you are putting words in our mouth. We recall what some preachers said about spiritual things. Often I can't remember what Worker said what - that's not the point. Workers do not preach about Workers.
nb I remember one celebrity being interviewed and he said "Enough about me! Let's hear what YOU have to say about me!"
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 27, 2015 4:08:28 GMT -5
No, you are putting words in our mouth. We recall what some preachers said about spiritual things. Often I can't remember what Worker said what - that's not the point. Workers do not preach about Workers. nb I remember one celebrity being interviewed and he said "Enough about me! Let's hear what YOU have to say about me!" Wow Bert maybe you need a hearing aid ! workers don't preach about workers ! What a load of rubbish !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 4:15:36 GMT -5
Since coming on the TMB about eight or nine years ago I have paid particular attention to this allegation that Workers talk about Workers, and not about Jesus.
I took a timer and notebook to Conventions to check this for myself for three or four years. I found there was one reference to Jesus every thirty seconds of an average convention (try finding that on any anti-truth website) and no reference at all of other workers (outside of referencing what another might have said in another sermon.)
The only Workers who WERE spoken about at some length were those in the New Testament (remember it was Paul who called those in the Ministry "Workers.")
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 27, 2015 4:42:44 GMT -5
Since coming on the TMB about eight or nine years ago I have paid particular attention to this allegation that Workers talk about Workers, and not about Jesus. I took a timer and notebook to Conventions to check this for myself for three or four years. I found there was one reference to Jesus every thirty seconds of an average convention (try finding that on any anti-truth website) and no reference at all of other workers (outside of referencing what another might have said in another sermon.) The only Workers who WERE spoken about at some length were those in the New Testament (remember it was Paul who called those in the Ministry "Workers.") Sorry Bert the Apostles saw Jesus, workers have not ! So what is referencing what another worker said if its not workers talking about workers !!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 5:03:25 GMT -5
I myself reference Workers sometimes. It's hard not to when the subject is "Thoughts from Convention" for instance. References to what other people have said are fine and good when they are spiritual.
The non-spiritual stuff you will find here. The Irvine and Long John quotes are here too. Any dissident Worker's comments are quote verbatim.
But any Worker who says something nice and memorable about Jesus will get no traction on the TMB.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jan 27, 2015 7:27:29 GMT -5
[/font][/b][/quote] In regard to the name thing, Elizabeth Coleman wrote the following ...I accept anyone as a fellow Christian who accepts Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior and is trusting only in Him ... for their salvation. I don't care where they go to church. I don't care what they wear. I don't care who made the building they worship in.... I know two-by-twos who are genuine Christians because they are trusting in Christ ... After reading the above, I had to say, yeah, y'know what, I believe that too..! This is good. I wonder what name people like us should call ourselves? The ex's, the un-friendlies, the born agains, the truth, the We have found the way people, God's children, the Genuine Christians, what? After all, I've been told you have to have some sort of name, or be called something. For convenience in talking about "us" at least. And perhaps for legal convenience too, should such a need perhaps arise? Just "Christians" is not really very helpful considering the wide range that name takes in. Are all or any of the above okay? Whatever "they" want to call genuine God's people like us? And what's more now, we get the concept of Non denominational in regard to ourselves and our faith. We are not denominational. We don't need to belong to a denomination. Of course now we also truly understand that indeed our origins are from the sea of Galilee, from the beginning and Jesus and those that believed in faith down through the generation until now. Yikes!!! This is starting to sound a terribly lot like the lies the 2x2's spew! Of course it is not possible that these true thoughts have crossed Their minds, especially the way they were taught to us, certainly not in their correct meanings. That's for sure...[/quote] Just wondering, Ettu, who do you accept as being of "true faith"? Do you believe there is any such thing? How do you differentiate? I note your tongue firmly in cheek when writing the above, but it is a question I have honestly sought to answer. What is your answer on who you would accept as being of true faith?
PS - is your "Ettu" derived from the Latin "you too" and all its Shakespearean connotations? Just curious.
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Post by rational on Jan 27, 2015 9:03:48 GMT -5
In regard to the name thing, Elizabeth Coleman wrote the following ...I accept anyone as a fellow Christian who accepts Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior and is trusting only in Him ... for their salvation. I don't care where they go to church. I don't care what they wear. I don't care who made the building they worship in.... I know two-by-twos who are genuine Christians because they are trusting in Christ ... In reality all you have done is move your claim of an exclusive belief/religion/understanding up one level. It still condemns the vast majority of humans to eternal damnation. Can any belief that does that be correct?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 27, 2015 11:10:36 GMT -5
Since coming on the TMB about eight or nine years ago I have paid particular attention to this allegation that Workers talk about Workers, and not about Jesus. I took a timer and notebook to Conventions to check this for myself for three or four years. I found there was one reference to Jesus every thirty seconds of an average convention (try finding that on any anti-truth website) and no reference at all of other workers (outside of referencing what another might have said in another sermon.) The only Workers who WERE spoken about at some length were those in the New Testament (remember it was Paul who called those in the Ministry "Workers.") Sorry Bert the Apostles saw Jesus, workers have not ! So what is referencing what another worker said if its not workers talking about workers !! Bert - your survey is interesting. However, its very limited. You only surveyed 4 days out of 365 days a year...not a representative sample of talk by workers. It's also a survey of talk by workers in a public setting - and not in private setting.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 27, 2015 16:51:50 GMT -5
Just wondering, Ettu, who do you accept as being of "true faith"? Do you believe there is any such thing? How do you differentiate? I note your tongue firmly in cheek when writing the above, but it is a question I have honestly sought to answer. What is your answer on who you would accept as being of true faith? You say you have "have honestly sought to answer?"
I thought you already had that decided when you said:
. .."I accept anyone as a fellow Christian who accepts Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior and is trusting only in Him ... for their salvation. I don't care where they go to church. I don't care what they wear. I don't care who made the building they worship in.... I know two-by-twos who are genuine Christians because they are trusting in Christ ..."
So I assumed you had figured it all out & found anyone who didn't meet your criteria as being unacceptable to you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 23:01:47 GMT -5
we still hear of what Adam, Cain, Able, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, David,------------------Peter, James, John, Paul, Philip,------------etc did, get the picture? So are you going to write your own Bible with what the workers said, Virgo ! The workers are not Peter, James, John, Paul, Noah , Issac, Jacob etc !! The workers have not seen Jesus ! Big difference ! no i'm not going to write my own Bible with what the workers said because i would be told i was worshipping the workers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 23:07:48 GMT -5
No, you are putting words in our mouth. We recall what some preachers said about spiritual things. Often I can't remember what Worker said what - that's not the point. Workers do not preach about Workers. nb I remember one celebrity being interviewed and he said "Enough about me! Let's hear what YOU have to say about me!" Wow Bert maybe you need a hearing aid ! workers don't preach about workers ! What a load of rubbish ! it's no use bertie trying to tell what you know, when some have a mindset about something you could have it all recorded for them to hear and they would still no believe you i live you can't ever recall workers preaching about themselves oh well i must be deaf aswell
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 27, 2015 23:36:43 GMT -5
Wow Bert maybe you need a hearing aid ! workers don't preach about workers ! What a load of rubbish ! it's no use bertie trying to tell what you know, when some have a mindset about something you could have it all recorded for them to hear and they would still no believe you i live you can't ever recall workers preaching about themselves oh well i must be deaf aswell Virgo, you and Bert are not the only two people who have every sat in Conventions, Special Meeting, Sunday meetings & Wednesday night meetings. We have all done that, some for many years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 1:21:10 GMT -5
Plenty of people have taken Convention notes. You need to dig up these self-glorifying sermons.
I doubt they exist. You can be sure if they did, they would be on the TTT site already. Any sermon about Jesus wouldn't get a look in.
ps here is one: "Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren..."
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 28, 2015 1:54:58 GMT -5
Look, all you people. I have absolutely scads of convention notes, -three & four pages of closely typed, one line pages.
They contain a lot but certainly weren't all self-glorifying sermons.
They also did not dismiss Jesus.
Lets play fair here.
I'm not in the church any more but I don't like made up excuses for leaving.
The real reasons are quite enough.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 28, 2015 1:57:09 GMT -5
I often say the Kingdom of God is built on sacrifice, and it is maintained by sacrifice, mostly the great sacrifice of Jesus of leaving the Glories of Heaven, and then others' sacrifice to bring the Gospel to Sam Jones and the love of God gripped him and he counted it no sacrifice to leave the green fields of Ireland to come out to the primitive farms and the pioneering country of Western Australia with its lack of conveniences and comforts. Love urged him on. "The Truth of God so Precious I value more each day." That moved him to say, "He is My Guide." and then my father heard him say, "I preach for the love of Jesus," and saw the sacrifice of Sam and Jim, and he wasn't ashamed to jump up and leave the church that day for the last time. I feel that even for myself, it is such a sacrifice of others here in the United States. It was such a privilege to meet George Walker coming here in 1903 and see the love and zeal that he has. Sacrifice is moving them on, maintained by sacrifice, but none of them counting it as sacrifice. The same is here, in this the state of California, where the servants labor, not counting it a sacrifice because love never counts anything it does as a sacrifice. It's a precious privilege to be with you. I thank you for listening.
From a review of hymns old and new: Sam Jones was born in Portadown, North Ireland, in 1877. He went forth to preach in 1902 and in 1908 went to South Australia. He moved to Western Australia about 1909, and from there to Tasmania, where he spent about twenty years. He had not been home for 30 years when he came back to England in 1938. He returned to Australia. He died of heart failure on Sunday, April 14, 1946. Sam Jones might well be called, "The sweet psalmist of Israel" in our day because of the number of hymns he wrote and their fragrance and spiritual thought. He loved to dwell much on the theme of redemption and God's will and purpose to conform us to His image.
The following is a list of 104 of Sam's hymns found in our present book: 3, 14, 19, 22, 27, 29, 32, 34, 40, 42, 44, 50, 53, 67, 76, 77, 78, 80, 92, 94, 103, 107, 111, 114, 116, 121, 122, 126, 131, 134, 135, 136, 142, 143, 144, 145, 147, 148, 149, 150, 152, 154, 155, 162, 169, 177, 185, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 205, 206, 211, 212, 213, 217, 219, 222, 233, 241, 246, 249, 250, 252, 253, 254, 262, 264, 268, 273, 274, 275, 290, 295, 307, 309, 311, 313, 316, 318, 326, 331, 336, 345, 346, 360, 371, 373, 374, 380, 390, 391, 393, 394, 396, and 408.
* Written as it was spoken by Clem Geue (pronounced "GOY")
* Hymn numbers are updated to the 1981 English edition
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 28, 2015 2:04:48 GMT -5
John 12:20 – “And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast . . saying, 'Sir, we would see Jesus.'” Andrew and Philip told Jesus and what did Jesus say? Did He say, “Wonderful, I would like to see them?” The first thing He said was, “The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” It seemed like such a strange answer, but I believe Jesus was saying, “I am going – you go.” How could they go? By dying as a grain of wheat. That is how we go forward in this ministry, by dying to the natural side and it is wonderful when there is fruit. I heard a wonderful story in New Zealand and it touched my heart deeply. A handsome young man came out from Ireland to the Taranaki district and fell in love with a beautiful lady. Then two sisters came with the Gospel and he was moved to go and take this message to others. Six weeks before their wedding, they broke off their engagement. The young lady’s father had financed them a farm but they put it all aside and that young man went into the ministry. The young lady also offered, but didn’t have the health to go. She remained single unto her dying day to encourage him to keep going. In 1921, Willie Fullerton left the beautiful country of New Zealand and went to the harsh winter climate of Canada and Stanley Watchorn followed in 1924. It was Stanley Watchorn and his companion who brought the Gospel to my parents. Some years later I had the privilege of sitting in Uncle Willie’s Gospel meeting and that was my opportunity. I thank God that they were willing to go forward and die like a corn of wheat, and that is why I have the privilege of being with you folks today. The message of God is to go forward and that is where the richer, deeper blessings lie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 2:54:43 GMT -5
it's no use bertie trying to tell what you know, when some have a mindset about something you could have it all recorded for them to hear and they would still no believe you i live you can't ever recall workers preaching about themselves oh well i must be deaf aswell Virgo, you and Bert are not the only two people who have every sat in Conventions, Special Meeting, Sunday meetings & Wednesday night meetings. We have all done that, some for many years. so what? still doesn't stop you from writing a load of rubbish
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 28, 2015 3:35:35 GMT -5
John 12:20 – “And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast . . saying, 'Sir, we would see Jesus.'” Andrew and Philip told Jesus and what did Jesus say? Did He say, “Wonderful, I would like to see them?” The first thing He said was, “The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” It seemed like such a strange answer, but I believe Jesus was saying, “I am going – you go.” How could they go? By dying as a grain of wheat. That is how we go forward in this ministry, by dying to the natural side and it is wonderful when there is fruit. I heard a wonderful story in New Zealand and it touched my heart deeply. A handsome young man came out from Ireland to the Taranaki district and fell in love with a beautiful lady. Then two sisters came with the Gospel and he was moved to go and take this message to others. Six weeks before their wedding, they broke off their engagement. The young lady’s father had financed them a farm but they put it all aside and that young man went into the ministry. The young lady also offered, but didn’t have the health to go. She remained single unto her dying day to encourage him to keep going. In 1921, Willie Fullerton left the beautiful country of New Zealand and went to the harsh winter climate of Canada and Stanley Watchorn followed in 1924. It was Stanley Watchorn and his companion who brought the Gospel to my parents. Some years later I had the privilege of sitting in Uncle Willie’s Gospel meeting and that was my opportunity. I thank God that they were willing to go forward and die like a corn of wheat, and that is why I have the privilege of being with you folks today. The message of God is to go forward and that is where the richer, deeper blessings lie. Roselyn , the workers weren't the only ones who suffered because they believed that they were bringing "salvation" to people.
Behind them were many priests, monks, "holy" men though out the history of Christianity who suffered many privations & even give their lives believing the same thing, that they were bringing "salvation" through Christ to the human race.
The workers were no better, no worse.
The operative word is "salvation."
The BIG question is, Why do people need to believe that an all loving, all knowing, all powerful entity called a GOD, who first created them in HIS likeness but now demanded a blood sacrifice to save them from their very creator?
It is all a very primitive concept going back through the history of mankind . The whole Christian story is nothing new, just one more retake of a very old idea.
We need to try to understand just why it is that mankind still wants to believe such an ancient concept.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 28, 2015 3:35:54 GMT -5
Well Virgo I could say the same to you ! Did you bother to read the above notes spoken by workers about workers !!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 4:43:49 GMT -5
Let us be sensible here. I would not put my head on the block in defense of what workers have purportedly said or have not said in the past or even in the present. We have not listened to every worker on earth or in every country, so how can we be sure what every worker has or has not said. It is wishful thinking used to try to defend our positions, and in doing so it makes us look foolish, open to ridicule and self righteous, somewhat like the Pharisees. Workers are not perfect, we are not perfect, we all makes mistakes, we all misinterpret and misunderstand things and concepts from time to time.. So Be reasonable and make allowances for these weaknesses in our nature.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jan 28, 2015 6:06:54 GMT -5
The BIG question is, Why do people need to believe that an all loving, all knowing, all powerful entity called a GOD, who first created them in HIS likeness but now demanded a blood sacrifice to save them from their very creator?
It is all a very primitive concept going back through the history of mankind . The whole Christian story is nothing new, just one more retake of a very old idea.
We need to try to understand just why it is that mankind still wants to believe such an ancient concept.
The alternative doesn't make any sense. Life begets life. No one can say how life first came about without life. And yet we are supposed to have blind faith that it did. Evolution doesn't make sense. There has never been the slightest increase in actual DNA data shown in any living organism through generational offspring. Ever. Anywhere. There is adaption and mutation, yes, but these are always a LOSS of genetic information, never an increase. And yet we are supposed to believe that the immense variety of every kind of life all around us just evolved from an increase of data in DNA when it has never been shown to actually occur. It is pretty obvious that humans are one of a kind compared to the rest of the animal world. The only ones truly able to hold dominion, and the only ones with a definable sense of morality and justice. Why are we so different? Why are we so spiritually oriented, searching for meaning? My faith might seem primitive to you, Dmmichgood, but the alternative seems far more like blind faith. I was interested in this comment of yours... We need to try to understand just why it is that mankind still wants to believe such an ancient concept.If we are nothing more than the animals, if there is nothing more to life than being evolved, and therefore there is no meaning in the universe, then why try to understand anything?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 14:10:30 GMT -5
Well Virgo I could say the same to you ! Did you bother to read the above notes spoken by workers about workers !!! Yes Virgo, not nice to say Workers talk rubbish. They will send you to the naughty corner.
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Post by snow on Jan 28, 2015 15:13:43 GMT -5
The BIG question is, Why do people need to believe that an all loving, all knowing, all powerful entity called a GOD, who first created them in HIS likeness but now demanded a blood sacrifice to save them from their very creator?
It is all a very primitive concept going back through the history of mankind . The whole Christian story is nothing new, just one more retake of a very old idea.
We need to try to understand just why it is that mankind still wants to believe such an ancient concept.
The alternative doesn't make any sense. Life begets life. No one can say how life first came about without life. And yet we are supposed to have blind faith that it did. Evolution doesn't make sense. There has never been the slightest increase in actual DNA data shown in any living organism through generational offspring. Ever. Anywhere. There is adaption and mutation, yes, but these are always a LOSS of genetic information, never an increase. And yet we are supposed to believe that the immense variety of every kind of life all around us just evolved from an increase of data in DNA when it has never been shown to actually occur. It is pretty obvious that humans are one of a kind compared to the rest of the animal world. The only ones truly able to hold dominion, and the only ones with a definable sense of morality and justice. Why are we so different? Why are we so spiritually oriented, searching for meaning? My faith might seem primitive to you, Dmmichgood, but the alternative seems far more like blind faith. I was interested in this comment of yours... We need to try to understand just why it is that mankind still wants to believe such an ancient concept.If we are nothing more than the animals, if there is nothing more to life than being evolved, and therefore there is no meaning in the universe, then why try to understand anything? Denying evolution is how things came to their current state of being does not make sense and it shows that you have not studied it extensively. There is so much evidence that we have evolved that people who claim this in this day and age are not studying the evidence or listening to creationists that want people to believe what they want them to believe. There is no conflict in believing in God and knowing that we have evolved. Even the Catholic pope knows that. What use does it serve to deny what science has found to be true? Carl Sagan in this interview gave some good things for people to think about. www.collective-evolution.com/2013/12/19/carl-sagans-two-warnings-for-humanity-in-his-very-last-interview-you-might-want-to-hear-this/
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