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Post by snow on Jan 14, 2015 20:21:29 GMT -5
It's an interesting question. Personally I think religion cries 'persecution' far too much. They have been so used to getting what they want, don't question anything religious, but the world is smartening up and saying that religion should not be exempt from criticism where it's warranted. CSA and terrorism should be a straight forward example of that imo. In fact, if religions actually admitted protecting their own criminals, it would make life a lot easier for both them and the victims, as well as the religious people who are not responsible. It is a despicable thing to reflect blame on innocent people. But then, the problem with religions is that so many of them make the same claim of righteousness as all the rest, so who is to know which "sect" is above board and which ones are fronts for politicians and terrorists? That is a problem today. How do we know which are the terrorists within religions and which are just people trying to follow their beliefs and living a life that mimics the good aspects of God instead of the horrific ones.
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Post by fixit on Jan 15, 2015 3:16:58 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 15, 2015 3:31:12 GMT -5
I hope the West doesn't get blamed for this... Did we hurt the Islamists feelings, or something? Don't worry. No one's figured out how to blame us yet. They're only killing Muslims there. But these guys don't really need to blame ANYONE, do they?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 15, 2015 3:48:38 GMT -5
The reality is, there is no religion on earth that can withstand the terrorists that operate in their name. I found it very interesting a few years ago to hear that Pope Benedict described CSA among the priesthood to be a persecution against the church. If inside criminal activity among Christians constitutes "persecution" of the church, does not Islamist (I did not say Muslim) terrorism constitute persecution against Muslims? I think Christians should consider that, if they believe they treat all human beings equally. It's an interesting question. Personally I think religion cries 'persecution' far too much. They have been so used to getting what they want, don't question anything religious, but the world is smartening up and saying that religion should not be exempt from criticism where it's warranted. CSA and terrorism should be a straight forward example of that imo. The "Persecution" meme, "martyrdom" meme, has been a powerful survival mechanism that has helped build up religion's immunity to any danger to their power.
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Post by snow on Jan 17, 2015 12:07:02 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jan 19, 2015 10:57:56 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Jan 27, 2015 18:54:24 GMT -5
While not the whole story, if you follow the money you can see which counties benefit’s most from a limited engagement conventional war. The US & UK control 65% of the 400 billion dollar global arms trade. Nothing sells a new weapon system like “Yes, it has been battle tested and proven”. Something must keep our partners in peace reordering. _
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 28, 2015 0:49:29 GMT -5
As an avid fan of the game of Cricket i have never once seen an Israeli team. Do they even belong to the ICC. Thinking about it I reckon whatever the Israeli's do would not be cricket.
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Post by snow on Jan 28, 2015 12:10:44 GMT -5
As an avid fan of the game of Cricket i have never once seen an Israeli team. Do they even belong to the ICC. Thinking about it I reckon whatever the Israeli's do would not be cricket. Cricket? Not sure what you mean about cricket. The ICC is the International Criminal Court which is holding a tribunal against war crimes that Israel has done against Palestine.
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Post by xna on Jan 28, 2015 12:31:12 GMT -5
As an avid fan of the game of Cricket i have never once seen an Israeli team. Do they even belong to the ICC. Thinking about it I reckon whatever the Israeli's do would not be cricket. Cricket? Not sure what you mean about cricket. The ICC is the International Criminal Court which is holding a tribunal against war crimes that Israel has done against Palestine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cricket_Council
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Post by fixit on Jan 28, 2015 13:24:08 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Jan 28, 2015 13:33:48 GMT -5
I like this guy take on Islam - Islam does not need a Reformation. It needs is an Enlightenment. www.atlassociety.org/tni/islam-reformationEnlightenment Now?Islamism is only the latest call for a return to the original vision and purity of Islam; there have been waves of such reform movements throughout the history of the religion. The same is true for Christianity; the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century had many predecessors. Both religions were born in the deserts of the Middle East, predicated on faith in a transcendent God and the hope of salvation in a life to come. That mystical foundation necessarily conflicts with any effort to understand the world by reason, or to seek one’s happiness in the world, or to enrich the world with the secular values of civilization. In the nature of the case, “reform” will be a regression by the standards of Objectivism. The most we can expect is that such movements will shake things up and inadvertently lead to progress. Will that happen with Islam? Will Muslims find and embrace their Enlightenment? Let us hope they will. And let us hope that their transition from Reformation to Enlightenment will not be as long and bloody as it was in Europe.
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Post by snow on Jan 28, 2015 14:02:45 GMT -5
Ahh thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 14:08:02 GMT -5
Very confusing to some one who is connected to the game of cricket, or who comes from a Cricket-playing country like myself. ICC immediately means International Cricket Council.Lol
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Post by snow on Jan 28, 2015 14:09:41 GMT -5
I like this guy take on Islam - Islam does not need a Reformation. It needs is an Enlightenment. www.atlassociety.org/tni/islam-reformationEnlightenment Now?Islamism is only the latest call for a return to the original vision and purity of Islam; there have been waves of such reform movements throughout the history of the religion. The same is true for Christianity; the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century had many predecessors. Both religions were born in the deserts of the Middle East, predicated on faith in a transcendent God and the hope of salvation in a life to come. That mystical foundation necessarily conflicts with any effort to understand the world by reason, or to seek one’s happiness in the world, or to enrich the world with the secular values of civilization. In the nature of the case, “reform” will be a regression by the standards of Objectivism. The most we can expect is that such movements will shake things up and inadvertently lead to progress. Will that happen with Islam? Will Muslims find and embrace their Enlightenment? Let us hope they will. And let us hope that their transition from Reformation to Enlightenment will not be as long and bloody as it was in Europe.This is more how I see it too. The world had to go through the Dark Ages while Christianity did it's thing on it's way to the enlightenment that took away the more violent aspects of the religion. Or most of them anyway. We haven't seen that with Islam yet so maybe this is their 'Dark ages'? Will they be able to leave behind the more violent aspects of their Abrahamic religion the way Christianity did? Or at least cut down on the amounts that adhere to the violent aspects of the OT and the Quran? Time will tell. We are seeing fanatic Christians holding tight and accusing more liberal Christians of being traitors to their religion at the moment. Why? Because we are seeing more and more of a trend towards a secular world where people respect each other in the form of human rights. Islam fanatics could be just what is needed to drive the moderate and liberal Muslims out of their mindset that Islam is a religion of peace and recognize the parts of it that need to be let go like Christianity needed to let go of the OT mindset. In the meantime we see fanatics in all of these religions, Judaism too, fighting to keep their old beliefs in place. Chaos is the way to enlightenment a lot of the time.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 29, 2015 0:10:27 GMT -5
Very confusing to some one who is connected to the game of cricket, or who comes from a Cricket-playing country like myself. ICC immediately means International Cricket Council.Lol That's right Partaker, it's just not cricket how some people treat each other.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 29, 2015 0:14:08 GMT -5
I like this guy take on Islam - Islam does not need a Reformation. It needs is an Enlightenment. www.atlassociety.org/tni/islam-reformationEnlightenment Now?Islamism is only the latest call for a return to the original vision and purity of Islam; there have been waves of such reform movements throughout the history of the religion. The same is true for Christianity; the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century had many predecessors. Both religions were born in the deserts of the Middle East, predicated on faith in a transcendent God and the hope of salvation in a life to come. That mystical foundation necessarily conflicts with any effort to understand the world by reason, or to seek one’s happiness in the world, or to enrich the world with the secular values of civilization. In the nature of the case, “reform” will be a regression by the standards of Objectivism. The most we can expect is that such movements will shake things up and inadvertently lead to progress. Will that happen with Islam? Will Muslims find and embrace their Enlightenment? Let us hope they will. And let us hope that their transition from Reformation to Enlightenment will not be as long and bloody as it was in Europe.This is more how I see it too. The world had to go through the Dark Ages while Christianity did it's thing on it's way to the enlightenment that took away the more violent aspects of the religion. Or most of them anyway. We haven't seen that with Islam yet so maybe this is their 'Dark ages'? Will they be able to leave behind the more violent aspects of their Abrahamic religion the way Christianity did? Or at least cut down on the amounts that adhere to the violent aspects of the OT and the Quran? Time will tell. We are seeing fanatic Christians holding tight and accusing more liberal Christians of being traitors to their religion at the moment. Why? Because we are seeing more and more of a trend towards a secular world where people respect each other in the form of human rights. Islam fanatics could be just what is needed to drive the moderate and liberal Muslims out of their mindset that Islam is a religion of peace and recognize the parts of it that need to be let go like Christianity needed to let go of the OT mindset. In the meantime we see fanatics in all of these religions, Judaism too, fighting to keep their old beliefs in place. Chaos is the way to enlightenment a lot of the time. snow, just a question about the Dark Ages, what does the term mean to you and can you enlighten us all on the meaning of it and how it affected Christianity and in what parts of the world?
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Post by xna on Jan 29, 2015 8:59:30 GMT -5
Very confusing to some one who is connected to the game of cricket, or who comes from a Cricket-playing country like myself. ICC immediately means International Cricket Council.Lol It's on of those TLA (Three Letter Acronym's) The many meanings of ICC www.acronymfinder.com/ICC.html
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 9:16:49 GMT -5
Gosh! I see what you mean; to say it is confusing is an understatement, it is very, very extremely confusing to just refer to the ICC without identifying up front ::)which one you are talking about. I must admit that when I first started to read the post above, I wondered what interests Isreal had in cricket, and thought that it was a darn cheek for them to advocate the stoppage of funding.
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Post by snow on Jan 29, 2015 11:44:15 GMT -5
This is more how I see it too. The world had to go through the Dark Ages while Christianity did it's thing on it's way to the enlightenment that took away the more violent aspects of the religion. Or most of them anyway. We haven't seen that with Islam yet so maybe this is their 'Dark ages'? Will they be able to leave behind the more violent aspects of their Abrahamic religion the way Christianity did? Or at least cut down on the amounts that adhere to the violent aspects of the OT and the Quran? Time will tell. We are seeing fanatic Christians holding tight and accusing more liberal Christians of being traitors to their religion at the moment. Why? Because we are seeing more and more of a trend towards a secular world where people respect each other in the form of human rights. Islam fanatics could be just what is needed to drive the moderate and liberal Muslims out of their mindset that Islam is a religion of peace and recognize the parts of it that need to be let go like Christianity needed to let go of the OT mindset. In the meantime we see fanatics in all of these religions, Judaism too, fighting to keep their old beliefs in place. Chaos is the way to enlightenment a lot of the time. snow, just a question about the Dark Ages, what does the term mean to you and can you enlighten us all on the meaning of it and how it affected Christianity and in what parts of the world? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your question right, but I think you are asking what it means to me, personally? So that's how I will answer that. When I was young, reading about Jesus was eye opening for me. He seemed to have a grander view of what we as humans were capable of. I think Christianity started out as just that, a grander view of what humanity could be like. It was about loving your neighbor, helping that neighbor and also learning to forgive and feel compassion for that neighbor and yourself. In the NT you see this aspect in Jesus' teachings, but you also see the opposite. I think that we start to see the downside of those who interpreted Jesus in a negative way, even in the very early writings about him. Nothing was ever written by him, so we have to depend on the interpretation of others. None of the gospels were written by eye witnesses who ever met him either. Again we have to depend on word of mouth and how the writings are also include the personal agendas of the people writing them. We see them slowly becoming more focused on the exclusivity that we have seen Christianity fall into over time. For me the Dark Ages was a combination of what can go wrong with a religion that is exclusive and the power to try and make everyone think the way you do. The Church had power and they became corrupted by this power because they started focusing more and more on the negatives of religion which imo are exclusivity, punishment and reward. They forgot the most important part which was love, help, forgive and practice compassion for others. It was a dark time for the world when an institution had this fanatic mindset and a belief that they were God's warriors. The enlightenment was a movement away from the more negative aspects of religion, and a move back towards the positive aspects of religion. Some of that was made possible by science and philosophy that slowly eroded the 'absolutism' of the church being right in all things. That kernel of doubt made it possible to question the church and more and more people did. The printing press was also a huge part of this. For the first time the Bible in it's entirety was available to the common person and of course the greater numbers of literate people helped this process too. They were no longer completely dependent on the Church and it's priests to learn about the words of the bible. They questioned. Between those things that were slowly happening and the violence of the church, people were beginning to change their views. The focus began to be more on the message of love and compassion than the punishment and reward, just enough that it started to erode the power the church had. The people changed and if the church wanted to survive they had to change too. Islam when practiced in the way it was meant to be is a jihad within, not with the people around you. Extremists exist that want it to be about the 'other'. They now have the power of financial backing of rich Muslims because of the oil in their part of the world. It's almost the same as when Constantine gave the Christians power in Rome. There were always Christians groups that existed that never forgot the core meaning of their religion. They understood it was about love and compassion. The group that was more focused on the power and conversion of others found that power and ran with it and we all know how that ended up. The Crusades, the Inquisition and the Witch Hunts. Wholesale slaughter of other Christians that didn't have just exactly the same beliefs that they did. We are seeing that in the extremists in Islam at the moment. Muslims killing Muslims for not holding the same beliefs within Islam. And it doesn't stop there of course, they are also killing those who are not Muslim. Trying to convert through fear. We are seeing more and more peaceful, loving Muslims coming forward to fight against that. Their religion has been hijacked the same way Christianity was. The chaos within Islam is similar imo to the chaos that was within Christianity when they had the power. The difference now is that the moderate Muslims also have the backing of the world to stop the violence of the extremists within their ranks so hopefully that will make this period of the 'Dark Ages' for Islam shorter than the Dark ages of Christianity. That's how I see it anyway.
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Post by snow on Jan 29, 2015 11:50:48 GMT -5
Gosh! I see what you mean; to say it is confusing is an understatement, it is very, very extremely confusing to just refer to the ICC without identifying up front ::)which one you are talking about. I must admit that when I first started to read the post above, I wondered what interests Isreal had in cricket, and thought that it was a darn cheek for them to advocate the stoppage of funding. Now that you do know it is about the International Criminal Court and a case against Israel for war crimes do you still think it is 'darn cheek' for them to advocate the stoppage of funding?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 29, 2015 11:54:04 GMT -5
Gosh! I see what you mean; to say it is confusing is an understatement, it is very, very extremely confusing to just refer to the ICC without identifying up front ::)which one you are talking about. I must admit that when I first started to read the post above, I wondered what interests Isreal had in cricket, and thought that it was a darn cheek for them to advocate the stoppage of funding. Now that you do know it is about the International Criminal Court and a case against Israel for war crimes do you still think it is 'darn cheek' for them to advocate the stoppage of funding? Absolutely Snow. It is just not cricket what they are advocating.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 13:09:41 GMT -5
Gosh! I see what you mean; to say it is confusing is an understatement, it is very, very extremely confusing to just refer to the ICC without identifying up front ::)which one you are talking about. I must admit that when I first started to read the post above, I wondered what interests Isreal had in cricket, and thought that it was a darn cheek for them to advocate the stoppage of funding. Now that you do know it is about the International Criminal Court and a case against Israel for war crimes do you still think it is 'darn cheek' for them to advocate the stoppage of funding? No, war crimes are war crimes whichever country commits them, Isreal is no exception as far as I am concerned. It is far more serious than being darn cheeky, it is a darn liberty to take in seeking to excuse and justify or hide any criminal actions of theirs by cutting off funds that would help to try and convict them if found guilty.Such funds are necessary and are not wasted at all.
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Post by xna on Jan 29, 2015 19:07:47 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Feb 20, 2015 16:52:07 GMT -5
Just a few isolated renegades who misinterpret the Qur'an?
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 20, 2015 17:21:58 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Feb 20, 2015 19:16:23 GMT -5
That's silly. Egyptian Christians are in no way responsible for Christian protests in America. You know that, and ISIL knows that.
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Post by xna on Feb 20, 2015 19:48:38 GMT -5
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