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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 15:01:58 GMT -5
Nathan:
Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"That is NOT what the KJV, NIV, or YLT say. What version did you quote? Yet again Nathan fails to pay attention to detail. Is it an inconvenience?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 15:09:49 GMT -5
A bit broad and deep for my pay grade. A nice summarization of God, our Lord and Savior ... 2 Peter 1 ... To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. Confirming One’s Calling and Election 3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. Presumably you agree with me that "contextually" all true believers are God by virtue of the fact they make up the body of God? The Holy Spirit unites one and all in God through Christ Jesus? No, I certainly do not agree that we are God ... We may 'participate' in the divine through baptism and incorporation into the Body of Christ through the merits of Christ. We participate in the divine by receiving the elements of bread and wine which have been validly consecrated to become his Body and Precious Blood. ... Through which we receive Christ our Savior's promises to raise us to eternal life. Jn 6
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Post by emy on Nov 11, 2014 15:10:48 GMT -5
A bit broad and deep for my pay grade. A nice summarization of God, our Lord and Savior ... 2 Peter 1 ... To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. Confirming One’s Calling and Election 3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. AGAIN: and of Jesus our Lord
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 15:34:18 GMT -5
A bit broad and deep for my pay grade. A nice summarization of God, our Lord and Savior ... 2 Peter 1 ... To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. Confirming One’s Calling and Election 3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. AGAIN: and of Jesus our LordThere is only ONE Lord. However, the passage explicitly says 'through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ ' Which means - through the merits of Christ as Savior. It next explicitly refers to God (the Father) and Jesus - the Lord of us ... Kyriou Vs 3 continues by speaking of 'his' divine power ... The divine power of the ONE Lord, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 15:36:10 GMT -5
My post stated it was my opinion that it was Jesus. The quote does not mean that Jesus is God. If I am standing beside you at the roadside and I say to you: "Let us...cross the road." It simply means that I am talking to you. It does not mean that you are also me! Remember too that the Holy Spirit is God's divine power. It is not a person but God's Spirit. Nevertheless it is a "living" Spirit. It acts as directed by God the Father from whom it proceeds. If Jesus was NOT God like the Father then WHY? God the Father told Yahweh Christ/Jesus to make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness? If Jesus wasn't God then why God the Father wanted to make man in their Image and their Likeness.The Word was brought forth from God. It was God's servant. God made the heavens and the earth through Jesus by his own divine power, the Holy Spirit. That's God's formula. Jesus was brought forth in spirit form, powerless, but fully obedient to the Father who empowered him to do all things by his Spirit. Jesus reveals all this in his various words in the NT. He could do nothing but by the Father. All he said was his Father's words, not his own. Jesus is/was the express image of the invisible God. Jesus was brought forth with the same character and purpose as the Father but relied on the Father to empower him in all things. The Word became flesh and in so doing was made lower than the angels. Man was originally made higher than the angels? but fell from his divine state to a position lower than the angels (I think?). Jesus came down to our level but the Word's OT relationship with the Father did not change and is clearly revealed in the NT. The human being Jesus Christ in his now glorified body sits on his heavenly throne ruling over the universe with the "title" Mighty God and Wise Counselor." He now has control of the Father's divine power, the Holy Spirit, which he sends to us as he promised to do. God is still the God and Father of Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 15:42:54 GMT -5
AGAIN: and of Jesus our LordThere is only ONE Lord. However, the passage explicitly says 'through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ ' Which means - through the merits of Christ as Savior. It next explicitly refers to God (the Father) and Jesus - the Lord of us ... Kyriou Vs 3 continues by speaking of 'his' divine power ... The divine power of the ONE Lord, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are many Lords. You have to define which one you are referring to. God is often referred to as the Lord God Almighty, which is the full expression of "Lord" when used in the context of God. There is only "one" Lord God Almighty. There is only one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, often shortened to just "Lord." Paul said in Cor. 1.8:6 "But to us there is but one God (Lord God Almighty), the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
The above explanation is accommodated in the above reference. Don't forget we can only come to the Father by his appointed means, i.e. through the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 15:43:49 GMT -5
Your above post is so all mixed up about our Lord God Jesus. It takes too much work to unravel it, Ram. Okay, what bits do you want clarified? Jesus was "the Word" in the OT. God, who is the Father created ALL things "THROUGH" the Word/Jesus, by his own divine power. That's God's formula from beginning to end. Remember when your son was two years old and you were out in the garden with him? You asked him to pick up a large stone, but it was too heavy for him. He was powerless. Then YOU put his hands on either side of the stone and then without touching the stone yourself, you put your hands on top of your Son's hands. Then together, both of you lifted the stone. Your Son lifted the stone through YOUR power! That's how it works....sort of! The stone was lifted by Nathan the Father, through his Son, by Nathan's power!
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Post by emy on Nov 11, 2014 15:51:33 GMT -5
Your above post is so all mixed up about our Lord God Jesus. It takes too much work to unravel it, Ram. It's not. Ram may have made one error. I think he would mean to say Jesus was brought forth in human form, not spirit form.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 15:57:05 GMT -5
Your above post is so all mixed up about our Lord God Jesus. It takes too much work to unravel it, Ram. It's not. Ram may have made one error. I think he would mean to say Jesus was brought forth in human form, not spirit form. Hi emy I was referring to the pre-existence of Jesus as the Word. I had Proverbs 8 in mind where it gives the picture of Jesus as God's wisdom. In my opinion the Word or Wisdom of God was brought forth from the Father in Spirit form but utterly dependent upon the Father for power. This Spirit form was by God's divine power, the Holy Ghost begotten in human form as God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Something like that? I know some disagree about the pre-existence of Jesus. Whatever the case may be, Jesus was fully human into whom God poured his Spirit without measure! edited. I have re-read my post and can see how I have not clearly differentiated between my understanding of the pre-existant Jesus and the NT Jesus, Son of God. Sorry!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 16:23:33 GMT -5
ram - perhaps I could just say that your scriptural references make perfect sense to me. Also when Jesus was on the cross, into whose hands did he commend his spirit? Into his own or into his Father's hands? Thanks for this. I almost missed your post. The thing is, it's all so simple without Trinitarian blinkers on! Did someone mention the "simplicity that is in Christ?"
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Post by fixit on Nov 11, 2014 19:21:20 GMT -5
Presumably you agree with me that "contextually" all true believers are God by virtue of the fact they make up the body of God? The Holy Spirit unites one and all in God through Christ Jesus? All believers are definitely not God and never will be. On the one hand you won't give Jesus the glory that he deserves and then you claim that we are all God?? As we have said many times Jesus revealed it very clearly as he left earth - he made it patently clear that " in the name of Yahweh" in the OT was " in the name of the Father, Son and HS" Only God can be our Saviour otherwise the sacrifice of Christ is ineffective. Ross, Hebrews 2 talks about Jesus being fully human so that he could atone...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 23:38:50 GMT -5
No human has never sinned so if Jesus was just a man he would have sinned. Only God cannot sin. Who was it that said if anyone says they have not sinned is a liar? Was it Jesus or someone else? 1Jn_1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2014 0:21:48 GMT -5
No human has never sinned so if Jesus was just a man he would have sinned. Only God cannot sin. Who was it that said if anyone says they have not sinned is a liar? Was it Jesus or someone else? The word "sinned" wouldn't exist if people didn't believe in an ancient manuscript (the bible)that made them believe that people who made human errors "sinned" & had to be redeemed by the bloody sacrifice of an innocent person (Jesus).
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2014 0:44:03 GMT -5
Thanks Wally. Dmm, Do you believe you sin i.e. commit an offence, wrong doing or misdeed? What do you call it when someone murders or commit sexual abuse? A mistake? Wikipedia: Sin,here are examples of the original general sense, ‘offence, wrong-doing, misdeed'".[11] The Biblical terms that have been translated from Greek and Hebrew as “sin” or "syn" originate in archery and literally refer to missing the "gold" at the centre of a target, but hitting the target, i.e. error.[12] In archery, not hitting the target at all is referred to as a "miss". Merriam-WebsterDefinition of SIN1 a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible c : an often serious shortcoming : fault 2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 4:18:36 GMT -5
Presumably you agree with me that "contextually" all true believers are God by virtue of the fact they make up the body of God? The Holy Spirit unites one and all in God through Christ Jesus? All believers are definitely not God and never will be. "Contextually" we will most definitely be God. How can it be otherwise when Jesus (whom you are adamant is God) craves us to be one in him as he is in the Father and the Father is in him. He wants us to all be "one." The fullness and reality of that "one" is that we will all be part of God. Jesus wants nothing less. We will all be God through God's divine and indwelling power, God's Holy Spirit.On the one hand you won't give Jesus the glory that he deserves and then you claim that we are all God?? What may be glory to you may well be different from my concept of glory. I have no problem with giving Jesus all the glory he deserves. I have even referred to him several times as now being in his "glorified" body! Perhaps your understanding of glory, divinity, deity, etc., needs to be revisited? I go with what the Bible shows these things to be.
As we have said many times Jesus revealed it very clearly as he left earth - he made it patently clear that " in the name of Yahweh" in the OT was " in the name of the Father, Son and HS" And this has been corrected be several others. It is in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The singular "name" has a plural meaning on this occasion. This is a fairly common application in the English language. Only God can be our Saviour otherwise the sacrifice of Christ is ineffective. This is correct, but God saves us "through" his only begotten Son by his divine power. Jesus made it abundantly clear that no man comes to the Father but through him. He also made it abundantly clear that everything he said and did came from the Father. He could do "nothing" of himself. This includes saving people. God saves through his only begotten Son. The sacrifice of Jesus is a very effective and integral part of God saving us. It is part of his salvation plan and method. All this stuff is in God's Word the Bible (best stick to the KJV). Mans' theological writings often obfuscates the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 4:27:06 GMT -5
Ross, Hebrews 2 talks about Jesus being fully human so that he could atone... Yes, God entered humanity in the form of Jesus so He could fully atone for the sins of mankind. He was fully human and fully God, the sinless One. Only God could forgive us and redeem us from sin and to be the perfect sacrifice and die in our place God had to enter humanity to do this. Ross.please read the passages that fixit quoted. It says he became human in "every" way. This means he was fully human. Only human. It does not say that he was fully God AND fully human. That is because no human being is fully God and fully human. Humans are fully human. He became like us. The scriptures would be incorrect if Jesus was fully God and fully human because he could NOT have been human in "every" way because he would still have been God. Jesus was pure and simply a human being, one into whom God poured his Spirit without measure. He is the only begotten human Son of God.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 4:33:33 GMT -5
No human has never sinned so if Jesus was just a man he would have sinned. Only God cannot sin. Who was it that said if anyone says they have not sinned is a liar? Was it Jesus or someone else? What about Adam and Eve before their fall? That was a human sinless state. That is how sin entered the world. Thereafter all human beings descended from Creation were born in sin. Unlike Adam and the rest of us who were created from the dust of the earth, Jesus is/was the only begotten human being brought forth by the Spirit of God in the surrogate Mother of Mary. Thus he came from the natural line of David but also was not corrupted by the sinful nature that we all have through natural inheritance. Into this human Son, God poured his Spirit without measure. It is this Spirit which preserved Jesus in his times of temptation. The fullness of this Spirit caused him on every occasion to seek to do the will of his heavenly Father, not his own will. It is hard for us to grasp this simply because we are under the influence and understanding of our human nature which is prone to sinning.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 5:31:16 GMT -5
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Post by jimmy on Nov 12, 2014 6:52:21 GMT -5
I don't understand why people are so determined to complicate the word of God. If God saw fit to leave his written word that says Jesus was the Son of God, a familial context that essentially every human can understand, then regardless of exactly how the spirit world is comprised, that is good enough for me to believe!! I consider myself to have at least average intelligence and I cannot get my head around the God the Son concept. It doesn't match the bible and I can only com back to the verses in Revelation about the danger of adding to the record that God has preserved. Jimmy - well before the NT was settled Jesus was worshipped as the Son of God and God (the Son). The Scriptures are very clear on who Jesus is and there is nothing terribly complicated about it. The discussion on this thread is just not a discussion among Christians. However, it seems to be among 2x2's largely because the Bible is not well taught on tis issue. I agree that the scripture is clear on who Jesus is. Just I don't seem to be able to see what some on here see in the scriptures about God the Son. I have absolutely no qualm that Jesus is equal with God and that the holy spirit is an extension of God but the scriptures seem quite clear that we are to view God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate entities. They are referenced in the plural and Jesus refers to God as his father on a number of occasions. Jesus' teachings were such that they were easily understood. I suspect the true dimensions of the spirit world are entirely beyond our human comprehension and accept that what Jesus taught may be a simplification of how it truly is, but if that is how he want's us to understand it with our limited human capabilities then I am content in that. I find nothing edifying in trying to complicate what has been left as a simple message.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 7:17:25 GMT -5
Ross.please read the passages that fixit quoted. It says he became human in "every" way. This means he was fully human. Only human. It does not say that he was fully God AND fully human. That is because no human being is fully God and fully human. Humans are fully human. He became like us. The scriptures would be incorrect if Jesus was fully God and fully human because he could NOT have been human in "every" way because he would still have been God. Jesus was pure and simply a human being, one into whom God poured his Spirit without measure. He is the only begotten human Son of God. Of course he was human in every way. No human can forgive sins - only God can. Jeses had complete power to forgive sin. He was fully human and fully God while on earth. Does God not work in and through you by his divine spirit? Do you not have the power to forgive sins. God forgave sins "through" Jesus Christ. Jesus did nothing of himself. It was all the Father working through him. Now back to forgiveness. Why do you think it is so important to God for YOU to forgive the sins of those who wrong you? It is part of the Lord's prayer. If you don't forgive another person their sins then you will not be forgiven. The reality is that God works through you by his Spirit in the same way he worked through Jesus. When you forgive another their sins against you, it is actually God who is forgiving them. You, by the power of God have set them free from those sins. If you forgive another their sins by the power of God then that person will not have to answer to God for those sins, Your willingness to forgive others their sins is crucial to God for he is expressing Christ through you by his divine power. Always be quick to forgive. As you do so, you glorify God and in turn he will forgive your sins and glorify you. We are ensamples of Christ.
Yes there has been feedback on Matthew 28 but respectfully the feedback is nonsense. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. What is nonsense to one makes complete sense to another! Have you ever paused to consider how nonsensical, or how Satanic, the doctrine of the Trinity is to those who put their faith in the Word of God?
Jesus was perfectly clear who He was - it is strange that if Jesus was perfectly comfortable with calling Himself the great "I am" why his creation are not. You are aware of the many interpretations which regard "I am" as "I was," "I have been," and so on. Nothing to do with I am God! There are other interpretations of this ambiguous statement which must be viewed in the overall context of the scriptures. It certainly does not state without ambiguity who Jesus is or was. Most Judaic or Hebrew Scholars regard the statement as "I was," or "I have been," etc.
By the way, you clearly state that Jesus called himself the great I AM. Would you care to quote the exact reference to this. I am a tad worried that some liberties may have been taken with this claim. I prefer to stick to what scripture actually says.
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Post by fixit on Nov 12, 2014 13:47:53 GMT -5
Who is man's judge?
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2014 21:50:44 GMT -5
Yes, I just heard this morning Ross. I remember your Dad from my childhood days and still remember your family coming up the way from the house for special meetings.
Please accept our most sincere condolences.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 12, 2014 21:59:30 GMT -5
I won't have the time over the next few days anyway as my dear Dad passed away yesterday and is now with the Lord. Very sorry for your loss. Prayers for all.
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Post by snow on Nov 12, 2014 22:14:24 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about your dad Ross. Hugs and love to you and your family.
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 12, 2014 22:49:54 GMT -5
Thoughts and prayers for you, and family, Ross. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 4:31:22 GMT -5
Ram I can forgive another person a thousand times (as I should) but it will do nothing for them in the sense of their standing before God. Only God can forgive and remove completely the stain of sin. That's exactly what Christ did at Calvary. As I said before Jesus was very clear that He was the great "I AM" - there are so many references I will let you look them up - even those came to arrest and kill him understood who He was and they fell back to the ground when He made it patently clear by saying "I am he." John makes the special point very clearly that when they heard these words "I am he" they drew back and fell to the ground. I wonder why - I think I know! The early Christians worshipped Jesus as Lord and God - they did not have the NT to read as we do. They understood and believed a very simple and uncomplicated reality - that Yahweh had come into the world as promised to save people eternally from their sins. You may want to ignore this etc but It does not change anything. Similar to many professing folk who refuse to read the facts about their church because they have already made up their minds about it. Again, it doesn't change the facts. I won't be responding on this particular thread anymore as I am very comfortable who Jesus is. I won't have the time over the next few days anyway as my dear Dad passed away yesterday and is now with the Lord. Ross, firstly I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad and am glad that you are comforted in knowing he is with the Lord. When I mention that we can forgive another's sins against us and indeed that is the will of God, I do agree that it will not affect their "overall" standing before God. However, they will not have to answer for these wrongs they have made against us and which we have forgiven through God's divine power, the Christ within us. When Jesus was on the cross he asked God "not to lay this sin to their charge." The people who put Jesus on the cross, if they remained unrepentant, would still face a lost eternity, but they will not have to answer for the sin of crucifying Christ. Being forgiven of this sin will not affect their overall standing before God, except that sin will not be held against them on judgement day. Jesus pleaded with his Father for this to be so. Regarding Jesus's "claim" to be the great I am. It is important that his words are quoted correctly and the context is explored. I do not ignore your opinions or the interpretations of others, but they are but one of a number of possibilities, some of equal merit. I have studied it. Also, theologians often make the mistake in thinking that Jesus is speaking his own words or on behalf of himself, when in reality he is speaking his Father's words and on behalf of him. Jesus is the vehicle in which God the Father expresses himself. Your point about Professing folks needing to read the facts about their church is spot on. I couldn't agree more. Honestly. I have been/am a deep critic of the F&W's church and many on this board will testify to that fact and despite my virulent outbursts I have never made it personal; have always claimed that my remarks were intended as constructive criticism, and above all strove to report with fairness to all. Now I will inject further fairness. I have agreed wholeheartedly with you on the point you have just made about the F&Ws. I would suggest that this very same claim should be made against every other denomination, sect or group taking the name of Jesus. Doctrines such the Trinity and who Jesus is, should be measured against the revealed Word of God. Also the practice of moving away from the KJV Bible. These things should be thoroughly researched with an open heart and with sincerity before God. In finishing, I pray that God will comfort you and your family at this very sad time. I can understand your grief as I have been through this with both my parents and my brother passing away. You need time away from these discussions.
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Post by withlove on Nov 13, 2014 5:00:13 GMT -5
Thank you for bringing this up! I realized recently that I may have misspoken in another post when I said Jesus didn't judge. It is confusing.
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Post by withlove on Nov 13, 2014 5:01:59 GMT -5
Thanks everyone - dad's funeral is 10am next Monday morning 17th at the Coonabarabran Lawn Cemetery on Dandry Road. We will miss him. Very sorry, Ross. Hope you have lots of support now and as time goes on.
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