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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 11:17:35 GMT -5
@ram Yes, like the Bereans .... I will remain in the doctrine of Christ's apostles - the very ones (per your quote) to whom Christ gave sending and power to go to all nations. You seem to overlook that not only are those teachings recorded in sacred scripture, but are also recorded by the very early church - in the writings of the *disciples of the apostles and those who passed on those same teachings down through the ages. *Ignatius, 110 Justin Martyr, 151 Theophilus of Antioch, 181 Irenaeus, 189 Just to name a few ...Are those persons' writings part of the Holy Scriptures, the inspired word of God. There are quite a few references in the New Testament about those who either left the early church of the Apostles to preach different doctrines, or tried to bring such fare into the early church. We are well warned about them. If the writings from the likes of Ignatius, Justin Martyr, et al, do not line up with what is recorded in the "sufficiency" of God's Word, then as Paul clearly said....."let them be accursed." That does not just go for those who preach false doctrines but also for those who follow them, unwittingly or not! A very serious warning to seek out God for ourselves and not be like the blind being led by the blind. Concentrate only on God's word. Be extremely careful about extra-biblical sources from whatever direction they come from. As stated previously on several occasions, I do not want you to accept anything that I say without FIRST checking it out against God's word (make sure it is the KJV) after making yourself approved of God and willing for the leading of his Holy Spirit, ensuring you are willing to see things very differently if needs be! You seem to forget from where the written word of God comes to you. Yes. From the bishops of the early church who preached, preserved, and canonized the early writings. Yes. It's not difficult to differentiate orthodox teaching that aligns with Holy Scripture and that which does not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 11:18:48 GMT -5
@ram Your challenge to Ross - where Jesus is 'worshipped as God ...' Mt 2:2 for an early start. Do a little Greek verb study of 'worship'. 4352. proskuneo You mean like this, St Anne? This is the second or third time I have posted this article. Be sure and read it if you have not already done so! www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christ
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 11:20:32 GMT -5
Ross.... Ram, is getting closer, and closer every day.
Dream on Nathan. Wishful thinking on your behalf, I suspect?
Is something troubling you?
When you are asked to quote specific verses please avoid delivering a series which do not say what is asked and are taken out of context.
It is the same stuff quoted over and over again. Since these discussions began you have yet to refute even one of my opinions/understandings by presenting your own.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 11:32:23 GMT -5
@ram Your challenge to Ross - where Jesus is 'worshipped as God ...' Mt 2:2 for an early start. Do a little Greek verb study of 'worship'. 4352. proskuneo You mean like this, St Anne? This is the second or third time I have posted this article. Be sure and read it if you have not already done so! www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christI will not be reading/watching ... I have a pretty good instinct of what probably will not align with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as well as much written here that does not .... I know in whom I have believed. My Lord and my God. Who was and is God - and who became God and man. That's all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 11:41:56 GMT -5
I will not be reading/watching ... I have a pretty good instinct of what probably will not align with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as well as much written here that does not .... I know in whom I have believed. My Lord and my God. Who was and is God - and who became God and man. That's all. You asked me to carry out a study, which I did and had already done, but you won't even read something which I asked you to in return. Thank you for your courtesy and for wasting my time. In future, please don't ask me any more questions, either privately or publicly, unless you are sincerely seeking God's Truth. Your current spirit betrays your sincerity and motives.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 11:57:46 GMT -5
I will not be reading/watching ... I have a pretty good instinct of what probably will not align with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as well as much written here that does not .... I know in whom I have believed. My Lord and my God. Who was and is God - and who became God and man. That's all. You asked me to carry out a study, which I did and had already done, but you won't even read something which I asked you to in return. Thank you for your courtesy and for wasting my time. In future, please don't ask me any more questions, either privately or publicly, unless you are sincerely seeking God's Truth. Your current spirit betrays you. I had looked at a couple of sources - and the (flimsy) argument against 'worship' of Jesus before I suggested a study of the Greek verb for 'worship' - which is the same usage for Jesus as for worship of God the Father. The arguments were easily knocked down. I have found God's truth, thank you. So in that regard, it's true, I am no longer a seeker.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 12:03:09 GMT -5
Here we go again Nathan. Instead of just repeating a series of verses (taken out of context), why don't you engage the opinions and understandings that I have previously presented for these?
Repeating them over and over again will not make your opinions right. It will obfuscate matters though. Which spirit is that of?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 12:05:08 GMT -5
You asked me to carry out a study, which I did and had already done, but you won't even read something which I asked you to in return. Thank you for your courtesy and for wasting my time. In future, please don't ask me any more questions, either privately or publicly, unless you are sincerely seeking God's Truth. Your current spirit betrays you. I had looked at a couple of sources - and the (flimsy) argument against 'worship' of Jesus before I suggested a study of the Greek verb for 'worship' - which is the same usage for Jesus as for worship of God the Father. The arguments were easily knocked down. I have found God's truth, thank you. So in that regard, it's true, I am no longer a seeker. You obviously did not read the article that I presented. More time wasting!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 12:12:39 GMT -5
www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/1-timothy-2-5-one-mediator-a-man1 Timothy 2:5 – One Mediator, A Man “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus…” This is one of the great and clear texts in the debate as to who Jesus really is. If Jesus were God, this would have been a wonderful place to say it. Instead, Jesus is clearly called “a person” using the Greek word anthropos, “person, human, man.” The lexicons state that it is “man” in contract with animals, plants, angels, and of course, God. The Greek text reads that there is one mediator between God and “mankind,” or “people,” “a person” or “a man”, Jesus Christ. Although Trinitarians say that this refers only to his human nature, that is an interpolation, not the text of Scripture. If Jesus were a God-man, this would be one of the many places to say it, but Scripture never says it, ever. Instead, Jesus is stated to be a member of the human race, just as the Old Testament prophecies foretold he would be. This verse is commonly translated, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” but there is no definite article, no “the” in the Greek text before “man, Christ Jesus.” Adding the “the” before “man” distorts the verse a little, as if it were saying that Jesus was “the man.” This verse is not pointing out that Jesus is “the” man, it is pointing out that he is “a man,” “a person,” a human being. Romans 5 shows that it was a person who sinned and got mankind into the mess it is in, and it was a person, Jesus, who got us out of that mess.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 12:18:11 GMT -5
Nathan, did you read the article I posted explaining worship? It could have saved you some trouble?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 12:33:19 GMT -5
An extract from the same article.
As Bible students, we must get the facts straight. “Worshipping,” i.e., bowing down to someone, shows honor and respect. It can be toward anyone the person wants to honor, even, as we saw earlier in the case of Lot, a total stranger. People “worshipping” Jesus does not make him God any more than Abraham “bowing down” before the Hittites makes them God. The Greek and Hebrew need to be translated consistently. When they are, we can see that people “worshipped” other people and God (or they “bowed down to” other people and God). In practical application, superiors, kings, God, and Jesus get most of the honor or worship. There are times when it is not appropriate to honor or “worship” someone. God says that it is wrong to bow down before (shachah; worship) other gods (Ex. 23:24). That makes perfect sense. How could a person with any sincerity honor both God and demons?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 12:52:56 GMT -5
Nathan, the verses you quote refer to the Lord God Almighty, NOT Jesus. Please read the verses 1-7 etc from the following on in chapter 5. THESE refer to Jesus.
5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 12:54:07 GMT -5
Fully God. Fully human. As man He redeemed us and mediates for us. As God, he saves us. Lk 1:47, Titus 3:4
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 12:57:15 GMT -5
Fully God. Fully human. As man He redeemed us and mediates for us. As God, he saves us. How you get that interpretation from that reference beats me? Your interpretation reveals a lot though!
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 12:59:58 GMT -5
Fully God. Fully human. As man He redeemed us and mediates for us. As God, he saves us. How you get that interpretation from that reference beats me? Your interpretation reveals a lot though! Titus 3:4
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 13:08:28 GMT -5
How you get that interpretation from that reference beats me? Your interpretation reveals a lot though! Titus 3:4 Try reading verse 6 which puts verse 4 into proper context! God the Father operating "through" Jesus Christ!
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 13:17:30 GMT -5
Try reading verse 6 which puts verse 4 into proper context! God the Father operating "through" Jesus Christ! 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, .... Yes. The perfect illustration of the Godhead - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Where one is - so are all three Divine persons of the Godhead present..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 13:22:47 GMT -5
Try reading verse 6 which puts verse 4 into proper context! God the Father operating "through" Jesus Christ! 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, .... Yes. The perfect illustration of the Godhead - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Where one is - so are all three Divine persons of the Godhead present..[/font][/b] This is your interpretation or belief. It is NOT what the verses say! God saves us through his Son Jesus by his divine power. God the Father pours out his divine Spirit to us through Jesus the Son of God.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 13:30:48 GMT -5
Nathan, the verses you quote refer to the Lord God Almighty, NOT Jesus. Please read the verses 1-7 etc from the following on in chapter 5. THESE refer to Jesus. Ram, Who do you THINK was the Lord God Almighty was, and is to come... who was slain and redeemed us to God? Was that Jesus or God the Father?Revelation chapter 4:8-11 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: “You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Revelation chapter 5:9-13 And they sang a new song, saying:“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and has Redeemed us to God by thy BLOOD, out of every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” Nathan verse 7 of chapter 5 clearly shows that it was Jesus the Lamb of God who takes the scroll out of the right hand of the Lord God Almighty. You must read it all together to get a proper understanding of who is on the throne and who is worthy to open the scroll.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 13:51:37 GMT -5
ram - perhaps I could just say that your scriptural references make perfect sense to me. Also when Jesus was on the cross, into whose hands did he commend his spirit? Into his own or into his Father's hands?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 13:57:18 GMT -5
4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, .... Yes. The perfect illustration of the Godhead - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Where one is - so are all three Divine persons of the Godhead present.. This is your interpretation or belief. It is NOT what the verses say! God saves us through his Son Jesus by his divine power. God the Father pours out his divine Spirit to us through Jesus the Son of God. Right. All three. The Godhead. Summarized by Jesus, 'the Father and I are one ...'
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 14:32:49 GMT -5
This is your interpretation or belief. It is NOT what the verses say! God saves us through his Son Jesus by his divine power. God the Father pours out his divine Spirit to us through Jesus the Son of God. Right. All three. The Godhead. Summarized by Jesus, 'the Father and I are one ...' Ok that's YOUR idea of the Godhead (or head of God). How about telling us who or what comprises the rest of God?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 14:44:56 GMT -5
ram - perhaps I could just say that your scriptural references make perfect sense to me. Also when Jesus was on the cross, into whose hands did he commend his spirit? Into his own or into his Father's hands? 1) The Father is God, Jesus said "My, God, My God why has thou forshaken me?"
2) The Father called the Son Both, "LORD and God" in Hebrews 1:8-12
Both of the Father and the Son are God/Elohim/plural. God/Elohim said, "Let US make man in OUR image, and in OUR likeness." Genesis 1:26In the verses you quote from Hebrews, Jesus is receiving his inheritance of the Holy Spirit, God's divine power. He has been given all power in heaven and earth from his Father and his God. He is now ruling over all creation until all his enemies are defeated. Then he returns that power to his Father and God. Jesus is ruling as "Mighty God" by virtue of his inherited position, not because he is the Almighty God. He is ruling in his Father's Stead. He could hardly be called anything other than Mighty God on account of the power he has been given. However, the ather remains HIS God. Revelations is very clear on that point! In Genesis God is clearly speaking to someone else when he said "Let us.." It is my opinion that person is Jesus.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 11, 2014 14:48:58 GMT -5
Right. All three. The Godhead. Summarized by Jesus, 'the Father and I are one ...' Ok that's YOUR idea of the Godhead (or head of God). How about telling us who or what comprises the rest of God? A bit broad and deep for my pay grade. A nice summarization of God, our Lord and Savior ... 2 Peter 1 ... To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. Confirming One’s Calling and Election 3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 14:50:58 GMT -5
Nathan, here is Revelations Chapter 5 which follows on from the verses you quoted from Chapter 4.
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.[/i]
Here we clearly and unquestionably see "in Heaven" that all Heaven was looking for a "man," not God, or a god, or a fully God/fully human, to open the Book of Life, but quite simply an ordinary man! None were found worthy except the man Jesus Christ, who had prevailed and was worthy to open the book.
Jesus is a man (in his glorified body) in Heaven. He is not God. This same Jesus will return to the Earth one day soon!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 14:52:42 GMT -5
Ok that's YOUR idea of the Godhead (or head of God). How about telling us who or what comprises the rest of God? A bit broad and deep for my pay grade. A nice summarization of God, our Lord and Savior ... 2 Peter 1 ... To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. Confirming One’s Calling and Election 3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. Presumably you agree with me that "contextually" all true believers are God by virtue of the fact they make up the body of God? The Holy Spirit unites one and all in God through Christ Jesus?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 14:57:10 GMT -5
In the verses you quote from Hebrews, Jesus is receiving his inheritance of the Holy Spirit, God's divine power. He has been given all power in heaven and earth from his Father and his God. He is now ruling over all creation until all his enemies are defeated. Then he returns that power to his Father and God. Jesus is ruling as "Mighty God" by virtue of his inherited position, not because he is the Almighty God. He is ruling in his Father's Stead. He could hardly be called anything other than Mighty God on account of the power he has been given. However, the ather remains HIS God. Revelations is very clear on that point! In Genesis God is clearly speaking to someone else when he said "Let us.." It is my opinion that person is Jesus. Who do you think that Someone else's is that God was talking to?My post stated it was my opinion that it was Jesus. The quote does not mean that Jesus is God. If I am standing beside you at the roadside and I say to you: "Let us...cross the road." It simply means that I am talking to you. It does not mean that you are also me! Remember too that the Holy Spirit is God's divine power. It is not a person but God's Spirit. Nevertheless it is a "living" Spirit. It acts as directed by God the Father from whom it proceeds.
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Post by emy on Nov 11, 2014 14:58:40 GMT -5
Nathan:
Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
That is NOT what the KJV, NIV, or YLT say. What version did you quote?
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