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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 4:35:43 GMT -5
Ross, one of my opening addresses to Nathan was that I accepted that the majority of "Christians" accepted or believed in the Trinity (however, many don't have any real idea what the Trinity doctrine is). I very much disagree that Paul and the other Apostles believed that Jesus was God and have shown this time and again. I think if you properly study matters you will find there are a fair number of Christians who do not accept that Jesus is God. I am surprised at the number that I am coming across, even within the mainstream churches. Of course, the mainstream doctrine is very much Trinitarian based but this is seldom properly explained to their fellowships. I would say that at least 10% of Christians categorically do not accept that Jesus is God and many who actually accept the Trinity really don't know what the Trinity doctrine actually is. Anyway, as stated in earlier posts, I know that I am in the minority and having studied the politics of the post Apostle age councils, I am very happy to state that I have no confidence in them ever having truly represented Jesus Christ and the Apostles. I certainly worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God. He is my Saviour and King. I also recognise his Divinity as having come from God and represented God, but there again divinity is offered to all who turn to God through Jesus Christ by being born again of the Father's divine spirit. That is Biblical divinity, not theological divinity. The deity question seems to be something the theologians have dreamed up. As far as I am concerned, God wants you and me to be part of his eternal deity. It is not limited to Father and Son, but is open to all who will be one with them. It is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father that binds us as one by being in and through us all. Jesus made it clear that most of Christendom would be rejected because he never knew them (they did not seek to know the only true God) and that there would be few that would come to that knowledge. The beliefs of the masses arouse suspicion within me rather than attraction, with good cause. Other than that I have no doubt we have much common ground. Thanks Ram - Christ was worshipped as deity long before theologians existed. I wouldn't worry too much about theologians (many of whom have helped us understand more about God) - they have been helpful in developing a concept that was settled in a practical sense in the early church. I'm interested that you worship Jesus as the Son of God only and only recognise his divinity as essentially lent to him. God is clear that no-one is to be worshipped other than Him which goes back to his original commandments. If Jesus is not God, why do you worship Him? I'm interested in whether you worship the Holy Spirit? If not, why do you worship Jesus and not the Holy Spirit? Christ was/is worshipped as the Son of God, not because of deity. He was worshipped because he is our Saviour. Theologians have helped us to understand many things about Biblical times, history, social climate, even some things about God and Jesus. However, they cannot, by the design of God, bring us to a knowledge of the only true God. That can only come about through a personal, sincere, committed relationship with God. Christ's divinity was not "lent" to him. Christ is divine because he came from God and fully represented God. The theologians do not understand this. If you are a partaker of the divine nature then you are divine by the power of God in your life. Do not think that divinity implies the personage of God. Divinity are those things that are of God, pertain to God, belong to God, etc. Adam and Eve were created divine beings in the beginning. They were created in the divine image of God. The image of God is divine. Jesus is the express image of God. Something or someone can be divine without actually being God himself. In the beginning man fell away from his divine state! This is what people do not understand and it leads them astray. I worship Jesus because he is the route to God. The Father is the invisible God. He does everything through his servant/only begotten Son and we can only come to him through his only begotten Son. That is the route God has planned. I worship the Father God through Jesus Christ. Jesus is my intercessor. I do not worship the Holy Spirit because it is the divine power of God the Father which Jesus has control of as a result of his having received his inheritance of the Holy Spirit which he now sheds forth to us. As the Bible clearly states, all things are of God through Jesus Christ the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Father's divine power. I believe in worshipping God the Father through his only begotten Son Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Father's divine power. Therefore I worship God through his Son by the Fathe Father's divine power. The Holy Spirit is God's power. It is not a person. God the Father specifically commands us to listen to and follow Jesus. "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him!" Why would anyone want to seek God outwith the framework of these words and what the encompass? Yes the theologian gives us much knowledge, but also they deliver us with much corruption. I am speaking in a general sense here. Consider how some theologians understand the biblical term "saint" or "saints." The Bible teaches us that saints is a term used to describe every true believer in Christ, not specially venerated , extra pious, extra special followers of Christ. The same people and their progeny, also widely misinterpret and limit terms such as divine or Holy, which give misleading understandings of many things in the Bible. One common one is....Jesus is Divine. God is Divine. Therefore Jesus must be God. Consider this. The express image of God is divine. Jesus is the express image of God. Therefore Jesus is divine. This does not make Jesus God himself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 5:04:41 GMT -5
Nathan there is not ONE solitary reference in the New Testament used by theologians to try and prove that Jesus IS God which has not been taken out of context. You just are not listening. I have addressed very adequately from scripture the true context of the verses you keep repeating. I am not going to answer any more of your repeated reference pulling because you either cannot or will not see the context of these references. Not once have you challenged any of my viewpoints through counter explanation, all the time jumping to repeating a list of already addressed references. It is tiring, very, very tiring, even for me. If you wish to continue this dialogue, pick anything that I have said and give me a proper explanation why you think it is wrong, instead of hurling oft repeated verses which have been adequately overturned. Here are some of the most clearly, plainly stated and direct references to Jesus as God are found in various letters from Paul and Peter.Romans 9:5 "Christ, who is God over all" Titus 2:13. " Our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"
II Peter 1:1. " Our God and Savior Jesus Christ"This should give some account for Romans 9.5 However, we must remember also that Jesus is now ruling in the position of Mighty God by virtue of having received from his Father his inheritance (divine power of the Father) all power and authority in heaven and earth. This does not mean that Jesus is the Almighty God. servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Is_Jesus_God_in_Romans_9.5.pdfBoth the other references are referring to the Father and the Son. This is how Peter really views the realationship between the Father and the Son. 1 Peter 3
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 8:34:22 GMT -5
This should give some account for Romans 9.5 However, we must remember also that Jesus is now ruling in the position of Mighty God by virtue of having received from his Father his inheritance (divine power of the Father) all power and authority in heaven and earth. This does not mean that Jesus is the Almighty God. servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Is_Jesus_God_in_Romans_9.5.pdfBoth the other references are referring to the Father and the Son. This is how Peter really views the realationship between the Father and the Son. 1 Peter 3 So at the point that Jesus is ruling as Mighty God he is not the Mighty God because the title has supposedly been lent to him? ? You said something before about an ambassador of the Queen - acting of behalf of the Queen but they are not the Queen. But here you say Jesus is acting as Mighty God, is called that, but is not the Mighty God. The two examples don't correlate at all. The ambassador is never called the King or Queen. So in your example, at the point in time when Jesus is acting as Mighty God and is called that, there technically are two mighty Gods (logically there has to be). But there is only one God in the Bible. I understand your view (and I used to hold it at one point) but it creates so many inconsistencies and problems when you read Scripture. No Ross, you are failing to understand the context of "Mighty God." I will try a short resume. Jesus, as the Word and later as the only begotten Son of God has always been God's servant. God would only share his glory with his servant. God, who is invisible and whom no man has seen, except the only begotten, channeled everything through his servant. This servant was revealed as the Son of God when he became flesh (human). Jesus was promised his inheritance upon completing all that his Father commanded/sent him to do. This inheritance was control of God's divine power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2. 31. "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his sould was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses. 33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted (enthroned by God in all his majesty), and having received of his Father the promise of the Holy Ghost (inheritance/personal control of God's divine power), he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." During his ministry, Jesus clearly stated that once he ascended to heaven he would sent the comforter/Holy Spirit in his place. In everything that Jesus ever dis, he received from his Father and God, and did it on behalf of his Father and God. Even the words that Jesus uttered he received from God. In heaven and on earth previously, Jesus was empowered by God the Father in all that he said and did. Now, as a result of his resurrection and receiving from his God and Father, all power and authority in heaven and on earth, Jesus is now ruling, or running the show on behalf of his Father and God in the highest position possible, until he brings all his enemies under his feet. Then he returns that power and authority to his Father and God. Jesus is ruling as Mighty God by virtue of his position, not because he is actually the person God. As always, Jesus is still God's servant. Revelations makes that clear. Jesus is still subject to his God and Father. This is explained in the reference from 1 Corinthians I quoted in an earlier post. I meant to quote the verses from 1st Peter chapter 1 to Nathan but will do it here. He will read it here. verse 3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. 4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you." If we allow ourselves to view these words (and they are only one example) with the simplicity that is in Christ and not be enticed away with enticing doctrines or convoluted explanations, we can see that Peter quite simply saw God as the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's only begotten Son of the Spirit. Every other human was of God's created from the dust of the earth. However we can be adopted into the family of God through adoption made possible by the resurrection of Jesus through whom we can be born again by the Holy Spirit he sends to us. In this way, we too are begotten of the Spirit, like Jesus, by virtue of being born again. Just look upon Jesus as now running the company on behalf of his Father. That is what is happening now. Ambassador's of countries are often regarded as their country speaking. Or when they make statements on behalf of the Queen, it is often regarded as the Queen speaking. If I gave you a written statement to read out to some other parties, although you would be reading out that statement, in reality it is myself who is speaking, only you are reading it out on my behalf. Now go to the Book of Revelation and read the opening first half sentence! Most people think it is Jesus Christ speaking on behalf of himself. No he is speaking on behalf of his God and Father. "The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM...!" Remember, when Jesus was on the earth he said that the words he spake were not his words but were the Father's words. Nothing has changed in that respect.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 9:00:17 GMT -5
Christ was/is worshipped as the Son of God, not because of deity. He was worshipped because he is our Saviour. Theologians have helped us to understand many things about Biblical times, history, social climate, even some things about God and Jesus. However, they cannot, by the design of God, bring us to a knowledge of the only true God. That can only come about through a personal, sincere, committed relationship with God. Christ's divinity was not "lent" to him. Christ is divine because he came from God and fully represented God. The theologians do not understand this. If you are a partaker of the divine nature then you are divine by the power of God in your life. Do not think that divinity implies the personage of God. Divinity are those things that are of God, pertain to God, belong to God, etc. Adam and Eve were created divine beings in the beginning. They were created in the divine image of God. The image of God is divine. Jesus is the express image of God. Something or someone can be divine without actually being God himself. In the beginning man fell away from his divine state! This is what people do not understand and it leads them astray. I worship Jesus because he is the route to God. The Father is the invisible God. He does everything through his servant/only begotten Son and we can only come to him through his only begotten Son. That is the route God has planned. I worship the Father God through Jesus Christ. Jesus is my intercessor. I do not worship the Holy Spirit because it is the divine power of God the Father which Jesus has control of as a result of his having received his inheritance of the Holy Spirit which he now sheds forth to us. As the Bible clearly states, all things are of God through Jesus Christ the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Father's divine power. I believe in worshipping God the Father through his only begotten Son Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Father's divine power. Therefore I worship God through his Son by the Fathe Father's divine power. The Holy Spirit is God's power. It is not a person. God the Father specifically commands us to listen to and follow Jesus. "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him!" Why would anyone want to seek God outwith the framework of these words and what the encompass? Yes the theologian gives us much knowledge, but also they deliver us with much corruption. I am speaking in a general sense here. Consider how some theologians understand the biblical term "saint" or "saints." The Bible teaches us that saints is a term used to describe every true believer in Christ, not specially venerated , extra pious, extra special followers of Christ. The same people and their progeny, also widely misinterpret and limit terms such as divine or Holy, which give misleading understandings of many things in the Bible. One common one is....Jesus is Divine. God is Divine. Therefore Jesus must be God. Consider this. The express image of God is divine. Jesus is the express image of God. Therefore Jesus is divine. This does not make Jesus God himself. I don't many protestant theologians who would not say that a saint is simply one who is born again of the Spirit. Obviously Catholic theologians hold a different view of saints. Your answer is quite complex re why you can worship Jesus when He is not God. The Scriptures are clear that we can worship God only. It is a very simple thing, and backed by much Scripture, that Jesus is the Son of God and is God (the Son), so therefore we worship Him as God (as Thomas, the Apostles and the early Christians did). In a previous post you said "We too will be God when we receive crowns of righteousness and are enthroned alongside Jesus". If this was the case then there would no need for us in heaven to bow down to our God before His throne and worship Him as is clearly the case in Revelation (Jesus is clearly on the throne in Revelation 21) and in other parts of the Bible. If you take your statement to its logical conclusion then we could worship ourselves because we are God, which is clearly not the case. Jesus is the route to God who is the Father. He is the express image of God but is not God. Those who see Jesus also see the Father because he is the manifestation of the invisible God. Jesus and God are identical in nature, characteristics and purpose. They are "one" in this! Jesus in a sense is the public face of the Father. The Father (God) does all things through Jesus ans one can only come to the Father through Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever allude to "God the Son." That is a concoction of man.
Regarding Revelation 21, in which John mainly refers to "God," here are a a couple of contextual quotes.
22. "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."
The Lamb (Jesus) is clearly separate from the Lord God Almighty.
23. "And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."
Once more, God and Jesus are separate. God provides the electricity supply if you like, by his divine power and Jesus is the light bulb. Yet another of countless examples of "all things being of God and Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Father's divine power, the Holy Spirit. It's all very, very simple, not complex at all. Unlike the Trinity it is not a mystery that will drive you made if you seek to understand it.
In relation to the Holy Spirit it is instructive to look at what the person who is the Holy Spirit does. He is clearly separate from the Father and the Son. As I said in a previous post that Jesus specifically replaced the familiar OT expression "The name of the LORD (ie Yahweh)" with "the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". He gave affirmation to Thomas when he said "My Lord and my God". These acts (and many others) would have simply been blasphemy if He were not God the Son. I should add that Paul is very clear on not only the divinity but of the deity of Jesus in most of his letters. Jesus clearly tells us in John's gospel that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It is not separate from the Father but is the divine power of God. It is the most powerful force (for want of a better expression) in all heaven and earth. If you truly want to understand the context of Thomas stating "My Lord and My God," I highly recommend you read John chapter 14. Thomas's statement is the "realisation" of chapter 14.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
When Thomas made the statement "My Lord and my God" he was fulfilling the above verses. He could clearly (now) see that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that God the Father was in him. Jesus was the express image of God, but not God himself. Verses 5 and 6 clearly shows us that Thomas (and the others) did not know the way to God. It was through Jesus alone! Later when Thomas put his hand in the side of the resurrected Jesus, the penny finally dropped.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 10:02:12 GMT -5
I understand your detailed reasoning but it doesn't make sense to me in in the context of all Scripture (much of which has been quoted). The ambassador example works, in my opinion, to a superficial level. It falls over when you get to the crucifixion and resurrection. You will need to explain why this is so. I see exactly the opposite being the case.
It also falls over in many other places - when Thomas called Jesus God, Jesus if he was a representative would simply say "no, I am his representative - I am not God". The Bible makes far more sense when you accept the triune nature of God but of course there is order in the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit (which does not imply inequality). A representative can hardly extinguish the sin of the world, past, present and future. I have adequately addressed the Thomas issue in my previous post and in other posts on this thread. Rather than falling over it quite simply makes common sense. Jesus very often implied that he was representing God. He very often implied that he was NOT God. Not once did he ever say that he was indeed God. This has been read into the references that have been used. Jesus clearly identified his God and His Father as the only true God, a far cry from stating that he himself was God. Wouldn't it have been so very simple if Jesus had clearly stated "I am God" rather than I am the Son of God! Regarding a representative can hardly extinguish the sins of the world, past present and future. Have you ever considered the words of Jesus that his works and his words are not HIS, but the Father's works and words. God forgives through his Son. Why do you seek to defend inequality when the Bible is very clear there is a difference in status and position betwee the Father and the Son. Their equality is in "oneness" of character, nature and purpose, not in personage or position.
Right at the beginning of the Bible the word God in the first few words is in the plural but the verb "made" or "created" is in the singular. In the Greek language there is a synonym for God, namely Lord. This term had been used in the OT to translate the divine name YHWH, Lord of Hosts. Paul makes use of this synonym in saying that for Christians there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. God and Lord are synonyms, and yet the Father and Jesus are distinct. In this we have the basis of the doctrine of the Trinity, which arose from the Christian experience of God in Jesus Christ and which was taught indeed by Christ himself. Sorry, but this is not Biblical. There is the Lord God Almighty and the Lord Jesus Christ are different. When Lord is used in reference to God, it really means Lord God Almighty, often shortened to God or even the Almighty. God does everything through Jesus. Jesus is the public face of the Lord God Almighty. He who sees Jesus sees God, not because Jesus is God, but because he is the public express image of God. Jesus is how God presents himself to the world. We may have to agree to disagree At least we will have agreed on this!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 10:40:02 GMT -5
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Post by StAnne on Nov 4, 2014 11:19:24 GMT -5
Jesus clearly tells us in John's gospel that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It is not separate from the Father but is the divine power of God. ... Said ram in his post above ...
@ram ... If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, how is it that Jesus 'breathed the Holy Spirit' upon his Apostles when he 'sent' them 'as the Father has sent me'?
Jesus also said he would send a Counselor, a Comfortor, to teach and to guide.
The Holy Spirit is scripturaly referred to as 'he' rather than 'it'.
In Acts 5:3-4, Ananias lies to the Holy Spirit - and is told that he has lied not to man but to God.
The greatest sin is that which is against the Holy Spirit.
How could all of these be true if the Holy Spirit is only a 'force' - a 'power'?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 13:08:37 GMT -5
Jesus clearly tells us in John's gospel that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It is not separate from the Father but is the divine power of God. ... Said ram in his post above ... @ram ... If the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, how is it that Jesus 'breathed the Holy Spirit' upon his Apostles when he 'sent' them 'as the Father has sent me'? [ i]O ye of little faith. Didst thou not read Acts 2:32-33 as I several times cited already? Okay, one last try.
32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses.
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father, THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY GHOST, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."
When Jesus "breathed the Holy Ghost onto the disciples, he was by that time resurrected and had told the disciples that all power in heaven and earth had been given to him (by God who is the Father). Pre-resurrection he stated that when he left for heaven, he would send the Comforter/Holy Ghost to them. The Holy Ghost is the divine power of God. It is God's Spirit. Can you breath a person onto another person? God's Spirit was in Jesus and was now under his personal control as his inheritance.
[/i] Jesus also said he would send a Counselor, a Comfortor, to teach and to guide. The Holy Spirit is scripturaly referred to as 'he' rather than 'it'. God's Spirit is a "living" Spirit. It is the Father's power. The Holy Spirit is referred to by many terms. Being God's Spirit, nothing is impossible with it. Because it is the Father's Spirit it automatically behaves as directed by the Father in much the same way that YOUR power responds to your wishes. It does not have its own will because, unlike Jesus it is not separate from the Father. Jesus now has control of the Father's divine power, but he still acts as directed by the Father. Previously Jesus received the Holy Spirit from his heavenly father, i.e. God poured out his Spirit to him without measure. Jesus is now in the position that he himself sends this same spirit to us.
[/font] In Acts 5:3-4, Ananias lies to the Holy Spirit - and is told that he has lied not to man but to God. That's right. If you lie to God's Spirit which is sent to teach and guide us, you automatically lie to God the Father.
The greatest sin is that which is against the Holy Spirit. How could all of these be true if the Holy Spirit is only a 'force' - a 'power'? God's Spirit is a living force through which God through Jesus lays claim on our lives. Just as God's Spirit moved across the Earth in the days of creation it does so now. It is the power by which all things are created. All things are of God (who is the Father), through Jesus Christ (the Son of God), by the Father's (God's) divine power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's power. That is why when Jesus inherited personal control of the Holy Spirit, he was given all power and authority in heaven and earth. God seeks to teach, guide and call us by his divine spirit. If we reject the workings of the spirit to draw us to God then that is unforgivable.
God is invisible. No man except the Son of God has seen him. God's Spirit is his invisible force which the Apostles eventually saw and heard (through it's effects).[/quote]
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 13:18:38 GMT -5
1) Ram wrote: Regarding Revelation 21, in which John mainly refers to "God," here are a a couple of contextual quotes. 22. "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." The Lamb (Jesus) is clearly separate from the Lord God Almighty. 23. "And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." ~~ NathanB: Ram, in Revelation and Hebrews we read Jesus said he is also the Almighty God as God the Father. Both are Godhead. The Father called the Son "God and Lord" in Hebrews 1:8-12. Jesus is NOT acting or filling the position as God after the resurrection but He is God/Spirit just like the Father and the Holy Spirit from eternity John 1:1-3.
Revelation 1:8 " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Rev. 11:16-17 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son.
Nathan I have adequately answered every one of these references several times already. You just are not reading/listening. Go back and properly study this thread. If you disagree with any explanation that I have presented from either myself or another source, then please present an explanation as to why my sources or myself are wrong and we can discuss it, rather than reposting the same stuff over and over again, which I am rightly growing very weary of answering.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 4, 2014 14:22:35 GMT -5
Oh my!
Isn't it amazing the amount of effort + ink & paper used when people believe in some irrational, delusional, dogma; yet they can't agree on the details!
Of Course I suppose it is difficult to have only one view of a delusion, -being that it is man-made to start with.
Guess there is bound to be differences, -since each one is seeing the delusional creation in their own mind.
I guess that is why there are thousands of different religious beliefs.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 4, 2014 15:36:26 GMT -5
@ram ...
One cannot lie to a 'power' or a 'force'.
Everything you expound about Jesus denies what we read In Jn 1:1 about who Jesus is - God, the Word.
And if God, the Word took on flesh, there is never after that a moment in time when he ceased being God and Man.
The Divine nature joined to human nature.
And to another of your statements - no, we will not become God. We are human nature only - adopted by Baptism - and west 'participate' in the divine nature - thru the merits of our Lord and Savior - but we will never be of Divine Nature.
That's all ...
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Post by StAnne on Nov 4, 2014 15:40:19 GMT -5
Auto correct - 'we' - not west ...
Wouldn't let me back in to modify ...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 15:53:39 GMT -5
@ram ... One cannot lie to a 'power' or a 'force'. Oh......Not even the "living" power of God?
Everything you expound about Jesus denies what we read In Jn 1:1 about who Jesus is - God, the Word. And if God, the Word took on flesh, there is never after that a moment in time when he ceased being God and Man. My Bible tells me that the Word became flesh, i.e, human. Not fully God and fully human, but clearly states..."human" or flesh. John repeatedly tells us throughout his Gospel and epistles that Jesus is NOT God. The verse you quote is one which is most often taken out of context.
The Divine nature joined to human nature. Go read II Peter Ch. 1 the first 7-8 or so verses to see how you too can become "divine!" Divinity is of God, belongs to God, sent by God, etc...It is NOT confined to God the person. True believers are divine according to the Spirit of God within them. Do a study of what the Bible says what divinity is. Don't accept the teachings of others. While you are at it, check out Saints to see if that marries up with what you have been taught.And to another of your statements - no, we will not become God. We are human nature only - adopted by Baptism - and west 'participate' in the divine nature - thru the merits of our Lord and Savior - but we will never be of Divine Nature. That's all ... As explained above. Are you suggesting that by partaking of the divine nature that we are not divine? Is our hope of glory, the Christ within us, not a divine spirit/nature? The truth is, man was created in the divine image of God. God's image is divine. Man fell away from that divinity and was left with human nature. We must be born again with the divine spirit or nature of God, or we will not be saved.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 16:04:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 19:03:04 GMT -5
Thanks but anyone in the world can write anything they like. It's not clear who wrote this - JW's, Christadelphians? You come to the first paragraph and read "For, if Jesus was God, as many claim, then He didn’t really suffer or die, because God is immortal" which is nonsense. It totally ignores the fact that God entered humanity - Jesus became a man and suffered in the flesh and died for our sins. This line of reasoning makes the sacrifice of Christ completely ineffective. Very true Ross, for example: Question: "Has anyone ever seen God?" Answer: The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) except the Lord Jesus Christ. In Exodus 33:20, God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” These Scriptures seem to contradict other Scriptures which describe various people “seeing” God. For example, Exodus 33:11 describes Moses speaking to God “face to face.” How could Moses speak with God “face to face” if no one can see God's face and live? In this instance, the phrase “face to face” is a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. God and Moses were speaking to each other as if they were two human beings having a close conversation. In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw God appearing as an angel; he did not truly see God. Samson’s parents were terrified when they realized they had seen God (Judges 13:22), but they had only seen Him appearing as an angel. Jesus was God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14) so when people saw Him, they were seeing God. So, yes, God can be “seen” and many people have “seen” God. At the same time, no one has ever seen God revealed in all His glory. In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would be consumed and destroyed. Therefore, God veils Himself and appears in forms in which we can “see” Him. However, this is different than seeing God with all His glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of God, images of God, and appearances of God, but no one has ever seen God in all His fullness (Exodus 33:20). Recommended Resources: Knowing God by J.I. Packer and Logos Bible Software. Read more: www.gotquestions.org/seen-God.html#ixzz3I941PyZuAs regards the question, is He God? people come up with answers like: if He is God, how can He be in Heaven sitting at His own right hand mediating with Himself on our behalf, or when He was called "good man" Mark 10:18 ( Luke 18:19) His response was: why call me good? there is none good but one God ( the Father).
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Post by fred on Nov 4, 2014 21:16:00 GMT -5
Yet his disciples called him greater things than just 'good' and he accepted that. I believe those who had come unto him and believed on him understood who he was were perfectly entitled to call him 'good', after all he accepted worship and scripture informs us about who is to be worshipped.
The young man who came to him saw him only as a teacher (master) and Jesus was telling him that no man should be called 'good'.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 5, 2014 13:38:25 GMT -5
That's rather profound...Jesus was fathered by the Father. And the Holy Spirit, And Mary. I think I'll quit confused! confused! That is what religion does to a person!
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Post by fixit on Nov 5, 2014 13:46:57 GMT -5
Part of my quote above was missed off... That's rather profound...Jesus was fathered by the Father. And the Holy Spirit, And Mary. I think I'll quit before I get confused! It was a response to Nathan's post: Was Jesus fathered by God or by the Holy Spirit? The Son of man Jesus is fathered by the Father, the Holy Spirit and Mary.
fixit, Did Jesus exist as God/the I AM that I AM in heaven before he incarnated as the son of man?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 14:37:20 GMT -5
A Good place to start, and end, in any question about Jesus is to read Matthew 5,6 and 7. Jesus' sermon dispenses with all the doctrines, theories and deliberate diversions.
Some place confidence in Apostolic or Nicean style creeds, or Trinity debates, which have nothing to do with personal relationships with God.
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Post by fixit on Nov 5, 2014 15:15:06 GMT -5
confused! That is what religion does to a person!
It's confuse because God hasn't revealed the whole truth about Himself/themselves, Yet.Is God a "Himself" or a "themselves" Nathan?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 5, 2014 15:15:38 GMT -5
Part of my quote above was missed off... That's rather profound...Jesus was fathered by the Father. And the Holy Spirit, And Mary. I think I'll quit before I get confused! It was a response to Nathan's post: The Son of man Jesus is fathered by the Father, the Holy Spirit and Mary.
fixit, Did Jesus exist as God/the I AM that I AM in heaven before he incarnated as the son of man? I 'm sorry, fixit, about not getting your quote correct. I'm not sure how that happened because I always copy a person's quote to put into my answer so that I get their quote correct.
I apololize that didn't happen this time .
Here is your quote:
"That's rather profound...Jesus was fathered by the Father.
And the Holy Spirit,
And Mary.
I think I'll quit before I get confused!"
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Post by fixit on Nov 5, 2014 15:39:01 GMT -5
No probs dmmich - just wanted it to be clear.
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Post by fixit on Nov 5, 2014 15:40:37 GMT -5
Is God a "Himself" or a "themselves" Nathan? The word EL is singular for God. EL/God the Father, El/God Yahweh, El/God Holy Spirit.
Speaking among themselves, God the Father, God Yahweh the Son, and God the Holy Spirit= Elohim/plural God.
The word Elohim/God is used when THEY (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit) talking to one another in Genesis 1:20 Elohim/God said, "Let US make man in OUR image in in OUR Likeness..."
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD El/God singular said, " Behold, man has become ONE of US, to know good and evil..." The Word El/God to Himself when The Father is speaking, the Son/Yahweh God is speaking and the Holy Spirit in a Singular voice to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc...
The Word Elohim/God to Themselves when they speaking among themselves (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)No wonder Muslims see Christians as polytheists.
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Post by snow on Nov 5, 2014 18:07:24 GMT -5
No wonder Muslims see Christians as polytheists. Three Persons= One God. God the Father, God the Son/Yahweh, and Holy Spirit= God/Elohim
A Family consists = The Father, the mother and the children
A Human consists = Body, mind and soul/spiritWe read in the book of Revelation that ALL of the angels, and people from all nations came to worship the God the Father and the Lamb of God/the Son in heaven.Yes a family does usually have a mother. In fact, most of the time a mother is a very important part for the existence of a family at all. Where is the 'mother' in your Christian equation of a family Nathan?
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Post by matisse on Nov 6, 2014 11:24:23 GMT -5
Yes a family does usually have a mother. In fact, most of the time a mother is a very important part for the existence of a family at all. Where is the 'mother' in your Christian equation of a family Nathan? Many Christians believe the Holy Spirit has the mother's nature.... Shekhinah glory...I wonder why the "divine feminine" is not talked about more often? Are you saying that the "Holy Ghost" of the Trinity represents the feminine?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 12:31:25 GMT -5
here it describes the holy ghost as a he...
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
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Post by snow on Nov 6, 2014 14:30:12 GMT -5
Yes a family does usually have a mother. In fact, most of the time a mother is a very important part for the existence of a family at all. Where is the 'mother' in your Christian equation of a family Nathan? Many Christians believe the Holy Spirit has the mother's nature.... I don't see that as being very viable seeing it was the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary. Sounds more like a guy thing to me.
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Post by matisse on Nov 6, 2014 15:11:49 GMT -5
Many Christians believe the Holy Spirit has the mother's nature.... I don't see that as being very viable seeing it was the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary. Sounds more like a guy thing to me. Perhaps the Holy Spirit was serving as midwife....wielding the "Holy Turkey Baster*." I have only heard of a feminine aspect of "God" in a couple of instances. One of them was in a Jewish setting. * poor woman's artificial insemination
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