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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 19, 2014 15:12:38 GMT -5
One of my older companions (Lee I.) in the work was in the meeting, an ex-sister worker. I spoke and I could see they were listening what I had to see by their expression and a few of them thank me for speaking Jesus is God the Word after the meetings.
Well, I spoke the Word God is Jesus. John 1:1-3, 10, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made... He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I spoke about Uncle Leo who taught us back in 1978 the word God refers to the Father and the Son. The word El is singular form for God. ELohim is plural form for God.
In Genesis 1:25 God/Elohim said, "Let US make man in OUR image, and in OUR likeness...
Jesus had many titles and names throughout the centuries such as God/EL, the Lord, Yahweh, the I AM that I AM, the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last. He appeared as God/EL in the garden and spoke to Adam and Eve. He appeared in human form talking to Abraham face to face in Genesis chapters 1-19. He appeared as a man and wrestle with Jacob. He appeared to Moses as the I AM that I AM. He incarnated as a human being and lived in this body for 331/2 years as the sacrificial perfect Lamb of God for our sins.
We have a wonderful, kind compassionate God Almighty the Word who died for our sins. He deserves our adoration, worship, and praises on Earth and through out Eternity. I tried to keep it simple, will share more information in the future in our Sunday morning meetings.
Nice, but perhaps you could tell what some others had to say as well?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 15:44:26 GMT -5
The Only True God
"You, the Only True God." (John 17:3).
Who is the one true God? How does this God portray Himself with respect to His identity? Does He portray Himself as a one person individual? How is he portrayed by others who are inspired by the Holy Spirit of God? Is this God a three person God or the one person Father of Israel and Jesus? What is this God's relationship to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? Precisely who is YAHWEH God and who is not?
YHVH your God who goes before you will Himself fight on your behalf, just as He did for you in Egypt before your eyes, and in the wilderness where you saw how YHVH your God has borne you, just as a man bears his son, in all the way which you have gone until you came to this place.' (Deuteronomy 1:31).
To you it was shown, that you might know that YHVH is God and there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35).
Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is One. (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Do you thus repay YHVH, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? (Deuteronomy 32:6).
[YHVH]: He will cry to Me, 'You are My Father, My God, and the Rock of my salvation.' (Psalm 89:26).
YHVH says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psalm 110:1).
[YHVH]:Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My Chosen One in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1).
Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen, My beloved with whom My soul is well pleased. I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the nations. (Matthew 12:18).
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.(Matthew 3:16-17)
The Spirit of Lord YHVH is upon me. (Isaiah 61:1).
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. (Luke 4:18; see 3:22).
O YHVH, You are our Father, we are the clay, and You our potter and all of us are the work of Your hand. (Isaiah 64:8)
And he (Christ) will arise and Shepherd his flock in the strength of YHVH, in the majesty of the name of the YHVH his God. (Micah 5:4; see 5:2).
Have we not all One Father? Has not One God created us? (Malachi 2:10).
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.... And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." (Luke 1:35).
For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son. (John 3:16).
But the hour is coming, and now is, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth." (John 4:23-24).
Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit. (Luke 4:14; cf. 4:1).
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Matthew 12:28).
But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. (Matthew 10:20).
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God. (Ephesians 4:30).
When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say. (Luke 12:11-12). If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him? (Luke 11:13).
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16:17).
I know that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in the name of My Father, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and do not seek the glory that comes from the Only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father.(John 5:43-44).
Believe in God; believe also into me. In my the house of my Father are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way where I am going." Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. (John 14:1).
Father.... that they know You the Only True God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3).
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me. (Matthew 27:46).
I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God. (John 20:17).
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit.... Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:32 36).
(YHWH) the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant-son Jesus. (Acts 3:13).
Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 15:5-6).
There is no God but one... For us there is One God, the Father, out of whom are all things and we to him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).
The Head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. (2 Corinthians 1:3-4).
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (2 Corinthians 11:31).
For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God (2 Corinthians 13:4).
Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:3).
We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Colossians 1:3).
The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory" (Ephesians 1:17).
[There is] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:6).
For they themselves report concerning us what a welcome we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a Living and True God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10).
To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:17).
For there is One God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5).
I charge you to keep the commandment unstained and irreproachable until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and this will be made manifest at the proper time by the Blessed and Only Supreme Power, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:14-16).
[God to Jesus]: You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions" (Hebrews 1:9).
So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a High Priest, but was appointed by Him who said to him, "You are My Son, today I have begotten you." As He says also in another place, "You are a Priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek." In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to Him Who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 5:5-10).
Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3).
We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know Him Who is True and we are in Him Who is True, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20).
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25).
[Jesus] has made us kings and priests to his God and Father." (Revelation 1:6).
He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. " (Rev 3:12).
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. (Revelation 21:7).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 15:48:17 GMT -5
Jesus Christ's One and Only God
"The LORD our God, the LORD is One." (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Jesus was a Jew. He was an obedient Jew. When Jesus confessed to God, "the LORD our God, the LORD is one" just who did he have in mind? A three person God? Or his Father alone?
Read the following Scripture verses and see if you can determine if Jesus' one and only God was a one person being or three person being.
He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name." (Rev 3:12).
"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46).
But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in the name of my Father, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? (John 5:43-44).
The Head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort. (2 Corinthians 1:3).
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (2 Corinthians 11:31).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:3).
The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory" (Ephesians 1:17).
We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Colossians 1:3).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3).
[Jesus] has made us kings and priests to his God and Father." (Revelation 1:6).
Father.... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" (John 17:3).
Clearly, the one and only God of Jesus Christ was not a three person being but was his Father alone. Jesus' God was His Father and Jesus' Father was His God. We have not the slightest reason to believe any differently. And since Jesus is not a polytheist he taught us that his God is to be our God.
I am ascending to my Father and your Father and my God and your God" (John 20:17).
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 19, 2014 15:50:27 GMT -5
Nice, but perhaps you could tell what some others had to say as well?
You mean what others spoke in meetings? They spoke being good seed/hearts. Stay true with God until the end. God's divine Love for sending Jesus the Word. Laying up treasures in heaven NOT on the things of this earth. Continuing making godly choices in our journey from earth to heaven. Don't want to have the spirits of complaining, murmuring, but desiring the spirit of willingness to Obey.
Someone on TMB asked if I dare to speak Jesus is God in my Sunday morning meetings like I do on here. Well, I told them I would so, I did it this morning.
It just seemed that you had posted so much about what YOU had said, that I was wondering if you listened to what others had said.
Why should be so earth shaking about "speaking Jesus is God" in Sunday morning meeting?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 15:52:47 GMT -5
The Shema
"The LORD our God, the LORD is One." (Deuteronomy 6:4).
The above verse is the simplest form of the Shema. The Hebrew text literally says, "YHVH our God YHVH is one." While we don't know for certain, and the matter is often disputed, the letters "YHVH" are usually understood by most Christian scholars to have been pronounced as "Yahweh" or "Yahveh." The word "Jehovah" is simply an anglicization of Yahweh just as Peter is an anglicization of the Greek name Petros and Jesus is an anglicization of the Greek name Iesous and Aramaic Yashua.
The Shema is a basic confession of Jews and Christians. It declares that God is one. We must ask ourselves a very important question. If God is "One" then in what way is God "one"? Just how is God "one"? What did God intend for us to understand by these words? And when other passages such as "there is no other but He" are considered, how do such words impact Deuteronomy 6:4? More importantly, what did God intend the ancient Jews to understand by these words? Are we to believe the above confession is intended to convey that God is one "substance," or that God is one trio, as Trinitarians want us to believe? Or did God intend to convey that He is one person? Did God want the Israelites to understand the Gentiles had many gods but the Israelite God in contrast was one substance? Is such a proprosal even reasonable?
The Shema identifies the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But just who was the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob? Was Abraham's one and only God just one person? Or was Abraham's one and only God three persons in number? Was Isaac and Jacob's one and only God just one person? Or was Isaac and Jacob's one and only God three persons in number? Just who was Israel's God? Who was Jesus' God? Was Jesus' one and only God a three person being? Or was Jesus' Father alone his one and only God? And if God is a three person being, why does the Bible indicate the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had a servant-son named Jesus?
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His servant-son Jesus (Acts 3:13). Jesus was an Israelite. He was the King of the Jews. Jesus stressed the vital importance of the Shema:
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear O Israel. The Lord our God the Lord is One' and 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these." So the scribe said to Him, "Well said Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" (Mark 12:28-31). The Jewish scribe refers to this one God as "He." Now we must ask ourselves just who this Jewish scribe had in mind when he used the word "He." The Lord our God the Lord is one "He" and there is no other God but this one "He." Is it reasonable or or is it disingenuous to suggest this Jewish scribe had a three person being in mind and worshiped a Triune God? Or did he have one person in mind? Well we know from Scripture, and Jesus' own words, that the Jews considered their God to be one person - the Father (John 8:41,54). Are we really to believe this learned Jew was referring to a three person God? Let us also not forget that the statement "the Lord our God the Lord is one" is understood in terms of the words "there is no other but He" (see Deut 4:35). And we must also take very careful note of something Jesus says here. Jesus told this man he had answered wisely. Are we to believe Jesus was being sarcastically coy? We know this scribe was referring to someone he perceived to be one person, the Father. How then did Jesus say the Jewish scribe answered wisely if indeed God was actually a three person being? And when Jesus prayed the above words, as Jews do, just who did he himself have in mind? Did he really have a three person God in mind as Trinitarians would have us believe? Or did he simply have his Father in mind? In Jesus' own mind, just who was that one and only God whom they were talking about? One person, or three? Who was Jesus' one and only God?
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" (John 20:17). Jesus was the son of God. Who is "God" in the term "son of God"? Jesus? A three person being? Or is Jesus the son of the one God who happens to be his Father? Plainly, we are to understand that God is one and Jesus is another and God is Jesus' Father and Jesus is God's son. Does it really make sense to then claim the Son of God is God? Would it make any sense to claim the son of Adam is Adam or the son of David is David or the son of Noah is Noah?
Jesus said he was acending to his God. This was the God that Jesus and the Jewish scribe were discussing and "there is no other but He." And Jesus clearly identifies his one God as his Father, not a Triune God. His Father was his one and only God. Jesus then goes further and reminds us that his God is our God. There is no difference between Jesus' God and our God. And of course there shouldn't be any difference or we would have two Gods/gods on our hands. If indeed there is only one God then Jesus can't have a different God than his followers. Did Jesus worship and serve a three person God? Or did Jesus worship and serve his father as his one and only God? To reasonable people who are honest with themselves, the answer is obvious. Jesus' God was his Father alone. And Jesus tells us that his one and only God is also our God - the Father.
Ask yourself a very important question and try to be reasonable and honest with yourself. Ask yourself, "Who was Jesus' God?" Now ask yourself if this was the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob who sent his servant-son Jesus? Now ask yourself if a Triune God is the same God Jesus served. And if not, ask yourself if this Triune God is another God?
"My God and Your God" - Jesus
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 15:57:15 GMT -5
Jesus and a Jewish Scribe
Jesus prayed to his Father and identifies his Father as the only true God:
Father.... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom You sent.
The Only True God, Jesus' Father, sent Jesus. In Mark chapter 12, there is an interesting exchange between the Jew Jesus and a Jewish scribe:
And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that He is one, and there is no other but He; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any question. Now let us stop for a moment and ask ourselves a very important question. Just who was this Jewish scribe talking about when he said, "HE is one" and "there is no other but HE"? Is it reasonable to suggest this scribe had a three person being in mind? Or is it more reasonable to suggest he had one person in mind?
[The Pharisees]: "We have one Father: God." (John 8:41).
The Jews never perceived God to be anything but one person. It would be ridiculous to claim this Jewish scribe had anyone but one person in mind. Jesus confirms this fact:
Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, "He is our God (John 8:54).
Jesus confirms that his Father was the God of the Jews. Jesus too was a Jew. Now notice how Jesus responds to the Jewish scribe.
And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that He is one, and there is no other but He; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." Jesus wasn't a Trinitarian either. Both the Jewish scribe and Jesus the Jew had the same idea in mind when they said that God is one - Jesus' Father, one person.
Now it gets even more interesting. Notice how the Jesus said, "The Lord our God the Lord is one" and the Jewish scribe responsed to that statement by saying, "you have truly said that He is one, and there is no other but He." Clearly, the Jewish scribe is emphasizing the exclusivity of the God which they have in mind. He says that Jesus had just said "there is no other but He" indicating this is what the Shema is supposed to indicate. And Jesus confirms this fact by saying he had answered wisely. We find the same idea at Deuteronomy 4:35. We must ask, "there is no other but WHO exactly"? Who did Jesus and this Jewish Scribe have in mind exactly? The honest and reasonable person knows the answer.
Jesus' God was his Father and his Father alone. And it is for this reason that we find Jesus teaching his disciples:
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was one person, Jesus' Father (Acts 3:13). Jesus' God was his Father. Our God is Jesus' Father. Jesus taught us the truth explicitly when he said, "my God and your God." Let us not serve a different God than Jesus.
Do you thus requite the Lord, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your Father, who created you, who made you and established you?....See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no God besides ME (Deuteronomy 32:6.29).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 16:09:44 GMT -5
Disproving the Trinity
"God catches the wise in their craftiness."
If one just clears away all the confusing cobwebs and looks at it simply and clearly, the doctrine of the Trinity is remarkably easy to completely refute. This article presents only one of numerous ways to disprove the Trinity. Robert Bowman Jr., a Trinitarian apologist, writes that Trinitarians must affirm ALL of the following points in order to affirm a belief in the doctrine of Trinity. And he is correct. All the following points must be affirmed to be a believer in the doctrine of the Trinity. (In other words, if you say you believe in the Trinity but you disagree with any of the points below, you don't know what you are talking about). Bowman also admits that if ANY one of these points can be disproven, the doctrine of the Trinity is thereby proven false. And that is correct and true. ALL of the following points absolutely must be true for the Trinity to be true. If any one of them is proven to be false, the entire doctrine is false.
1. There is one God (i.e., one proper object of religious devotion).
2. The one God is a single divine being, the LORD (Jehovah, Yahweh).
3. The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is God.
4. The Son, Jesus Christ, is God.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Father is not the Son.
7. The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
8. The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
Trinitarian Point 2 - The one God is a single divine being.
That there the one God is a single divine being is affirmed. However, Bowman's intentional selection of language is employed to at the same time deny that God is one person. That the one God is not one person is disputed by the Scriptures. That the one God is a single person is shown by the following Scriptural facts:
The one and only God of Jesus the Jewish man born under the Law and an obedient servant of the Shema, "the LORD our God, the LORD is one," was, and is, the Father alone, who Trinitarians admit is one single person. The very purpose of singular personal pronouns is to signify a single person is being identified. In the Bible, God profusely refers to Himself as a singular "Who", "I", and "Me" and inspires His prophets to refer to Him as a singular "You", "He", and "Him" in passages where He declares that He Himself is the only God, there is no other, there is no other besides Him, and there is no other like Him. Since the very purpose of singular personal pronouns is to signify a single person is being identified, we must conclude that God was deceptive to lead the Israelites into thinking He was one person when He was actually three, or we must conclude in common sense that these singular personal pronouns are used of the one God in this manner because the one God is in fact one person. Jesus and the Jewish scribe indicate to us how the Shema is to be understood when they qualify the words "the Lord is one" by indicating it means "there is no other but HE." Since neither the Jewish scribe, nor Jesus, worshiped anything other than a one person God, and since Jesus declared that the Jews "worship what we know," we must conclude that Jesus knew who the one God was and was not and that one God was the God of Jesus, his Father alone. Since the Father is one person, the Bible identifies the one God as one person at 1 Corinthians 8:6 where it says, "there is one God, the Father." Trinitarian Point 4 - The Son, Jesus Christ, is God.
That Jesus is the one God is disputed by the Scriptures. Since this particular point tends to be the main obsession of Trinitarians, most of the articles on this site deal with this claim. Only a few brief points will be made here to demonstrate that the Scripture disputes this Trinitarian claim.
There are 3 possible ways to disprove the statement "Jesus is God." First, we could find a statement in Scripture that insists the Son is NOT God. No such statements exist in Scripture. Of course, no such statement exists that says the Son is not a space alien either but this does not give us a license to suggest that he is a space alien. Secondly, we can demonstrate that there is no evidence that the Son is "God." Most of the information on this site is devoted to demonstrating this fact and exposing the logical fallacies behind Trinitarian claims on that point and so we will not discuss that particular point here. The third way is to find a statement where someone else claims that he alone is God and only he is God, such as the Father of Jesus. If we were to accept such a statement from God to be true then we must confess the doctrine of the Trinity is false. But does such a statement exist? Yes.
Do you thus repay Yahweh, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you.... See now that I, I am He, and there is no God besides ME. (Deuteronomy 32:6, 39).
Here, the LORD, YHVH, identifies himself as the Father and He declares there is no God besides "ME". He says "there is no Elohim besides "ME." Who is "Me?" The Father has identified himself as the one doing the speaking. The Father is insisting that He alone is God. Now if He alone is God then no one else can also be God. But Trinitarianism insists that two other persons are also "God" too in direct opposition to the Father's declaration. Who are you going to believe?
Who is necessarily speaking in this passage? Who is this person's servant and chosen?
Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom MY soul delights: I have put MY Spirit upon him... I am YHVH, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another. (Isaiah 42; cf Mt 12:18).
The speaker in the above verse is necessarily the Father.
Since Jesus declares that ONLY one person, the Father, knows the day and hour of his return, he cannot be God since to be God is be omniscient and Jesus insists that ONLY the Father is omniscient. Therefore, Jesus most certainly cannot be the one God.
Jesus cannot be God because the Bible says there is one God, the Father, and the one Lord, Jesus (1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:5). Jesus is not the one God but our one Lord. The Father is not the one Lord but our one God. The one Lord in question is not the Father since the one Lord in question has a God, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus cannot be the one God because he mediates between the one God and men (1 Timothy 2:5) and by definition a mediator cannot be either party for whom he mediates. And as mediator is neither of the other two parties in view; he is not the group of men for whom he mediates and he is not the one God for whom he mediates. WHY Jesus can mediate simply obfuscates the issue at hand and that issue is that a mediator is by definition not the other two parties, by identity, for whom he mediates.
In the book of Revelation, we read that Jesus will send his angel to reveal things to John. But when we continue reading we see that this angels is not a third party of some sort but is a manifestation of Jesus himself appearing to John and speaking to John saying things such as "I am the First and the Last... I was dead," etc. Note the following passages how Jesus' angels turns out to be a manifestation of Jesus himself:
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things for the churches. (Revelation 22:16).
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to His servants, the things which must soon take place; and he sent and communicated it by his angel to His servant John.... Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a Son of Man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across his chest with a golden sash. His head and his hair were white like white wool, like snow; and his eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In his right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and his face was like the sun shining in its strength. When I saw him, I fell at his feet like a dead man. And his placed his right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1). Now follow the speaker:
"I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of THE ANGEL who showed me these things. But HE said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God." And HE said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and MY reward is with ME to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." (Revelation 22). Trinitarian Point 8 - The Son IS NOT the Spirit
The Bible affirms very clearly that Jesus IS the Spirit.
In Trinitarian doctrine Jesus is not the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is a separate third person in Trinitarian doctrine. One cannot say that Jesus is the Holy Spirit since that would be saying one person is indeed also another person. However, the Bible clearly affirms the risen Lord Jesus IS the Spirit at 2 Corinthians 3:17.
But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted because the veil is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but when a person turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. (2 Corinthians 3:14-4:5).
Now it is quite obvious to the unbiased reader that the Lord of this passage is Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul is telling us that Christ IS the Spirit. However, since Trinitarians perceive this passage destroys the doctrine of the Trinity, an interpretive contrivance is in order. One contrivance is to pretend "the Spirit" at 2 Corinthians 3:17 is not a reference to their third hypostasis, the Holy Spirit, but a term to refer to a substance, a what, "spirit". However, the honest person will quickly see that Paul has been discussing the superiority of the ministry of the Spirit over the Law.
....written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God... God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in the letter but in the Spirit for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Since the Spirit is understood to be a 3rd person in Trinitarian doctrine, the Trinitarian is caught in an inescapable dilemma of having Person A as Person B but Trinitarian doctrine claiming Person A is not Person B. Hence, they perceive a need to contrive.
When it is realize the above contrivance will not work for them, another contrivance pulled out of the hat is to suggest that "the Lord" of this passage is not Jesus but some other identity such as the Father. However, this will not work either. In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father is not the Spirit either. If we were to identify the Lord as the Father, the Trinitarian would then be caught saying the Father is the person who is the person of the Spirit and he cannot say this without contradicting his own doctrine. In his doctrine the Father is NOT the Spirit. If we were to identify "the Lord" as the Triune God then they would be caught in saying the Triune God is the person who is the Spirit and he cannot say this either without contradicting his own doctrine. No matter how the Trinitarian identifies the Lord he is caught in his own snare.
Secondly, the Lord is indeed clearly identified in the immediate context. Paul opens his letter with two references to the "Lord Jesus Christ." "The Lord" is the standard way for Paul to refer to the risen Jesus and this passage is no different. We see in this passage that the veil is removed "in Christ" and only when one turns to "the Lord" is it taken away. Reasonable people will see that "turning to the Lord" and having the veil taken away is the same idea as having the veil "removed in Christ." The Lord who is the Spirit is Jesus Christ.
But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And even further to the point, Paul says we are being transformed into the same image from glory until glory. This is the same typical Pauline language for being free in Christ being conformed into the image of Christ that Paul uses elsewhere in his writings:
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us... the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.... For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.(Romans 8:29-30; cf. Gal 4:29-5:1; Php 3:10-11; 1 Cor 15:49).
When we look at the obvious evidence of the immediate context we can see plainly that "the Lord" of this passage is no one else but the Son of God and Paul identifies the Son of God as "the Spirit" in direct opposition to Trinitarian doctrine which claims "the Son is not the Spirit" and there is absolutely no way out of the dilemma here for the Trinitarian but a good dose of denial.
At 1 Corinthians 15:45, Paul refers to the risen Jesus as being raised "life-giving Spirit." Paul has the very same thing in mind here in 2 Corinthians. And just as he talks about the glorification of the body in 1 Corinthians 15, he has the same thing in mind here when he is referring to the glory of Jesus in believers. The risen Jesus IS the Spirit.
In the preceding context, Paul discusses the ministry of the Spirit. Trinitarians otherwise insist "the Spirit" in this passage is the 3rd person of his Triune God. But when the doctrine of the Trinity is in view and he must deal with the words of 2 Corinthians 3:17, he changes his mind for the occasion. He is caught in the inescapable dilemma of Jesus being identifed as the Spirit, that is, the dilemma of the 2nd person of his Trinity being identifed as the 3rd. But in Trinitarian doctrine the 2nd person is NOT the 3rd and he ends up with a contradiction diametrically opposed to his doctrine.
Trinitarian Point 7 - The Father IS NOT the Spirit
The Bible affirms very clearly that our Father IS the Spirit.
Did the Father of the man Jesus of Nazareth conceive Jesus in the womb of Mary? In Trinitarianism the answer is that he did not. In Trinitarian doctrine, another person altogether conceived the man Jesus of Nazareth and that person is the Holy Spirit, someone who is not the Father in Trinitarianism. In other words, Trinitarians are caught in the serious dilemma of having one person conceiving baby Jesus (the Holy Spirit) but another person being his father (God, the Father of Jesus). It is an absurdity of absurdities.
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35).
The honest reader can see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father who conceived baby Jesus of Nazareth and not a 3rd and separate person who is not the Father. In Trinitarianism, the Holy Spirit is not the Father and they create for themselves here the ridiculous predicament of having one person conceive baby Jesus but Jesus having another person altogether as his father. Absurd.
Another clear indication that the Father is the Holy Spirit are parallel statements made by Matthew and Luke:
When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say." (Luke 12:11-12).
But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. (Matthew 10:17-20).
The term "Spirit of God" is obviously a term which means "Spirit of God the Father." However, in Trinitarian doctrine, "the Spirit" is not the Spirit of the Father but a 3rd person in addition to the Father and so they must conclude and do conclude that, "the Father is NOT the Spirit." But we have clear Scriptures which show the Father is the Spirit. And again the Trinitarian doctrine is easily proven wrong.
Even further is Jesus' teaching at John 4:24, "God is Spirit." That Jesus is referring to the Father is made plain by the context. And that Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit is also made plain by the context.
When He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. John 16:13.
Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth, for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in in Spirit and Truth." John 4:22-24. It is plain to the honest mind that "God" is the Father in the phrase "God is Spirit" and it is equally plain that "Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. But in Trinitarian doctrine, God the Father is most definitely NOT the Holy Spirit. Scriptures proves them wrong.
Of course, multitudes of denials are always in order when such things are presented to the Trinitarian. And of course this brings up the issue of how both Jesus and the Father can be "the Spirit." But anyone who comprehends the nature of the resurrection can quickly see how this is so. his will be clearly elucidated in another article. "Father" and "Son" are WHO they are; "Spirit" is WHAT they both are; the risen Jesus and the Father are both "the Spirit." In the same way that both Adam and Eve are both "the flesh" and the one flesh of Adam, both God the Father and his Son are now one Spirit of God. The flesh of Eve is the flesh of Adam and the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. And just as Eve is the flesh of Adam but is not Adam so also Christ is the Spirit of God but is not God. The Spirit in us is the presence of both the Father and Jesus which is why Jesus taught that both Father and Son will come to make their home in believers. God the father IS Spirit and so now also is the risen Jesus.
The Bible plainly shows the Trinity doctrine to be completely wrong. In Trinitarianism the Spirit and the Father or the Spirit and the Son cannot be one and the same. The Bible says the Son of God IS the Spirit. Trinitarianism says the Son of God IS NOT the Spirit. The error can be no plainer than this and the whole doctrine of the Trinity must affirm the Son is NOT the Spirit or it does not and cannot stand. The reader should seriously consider the gravity of the facts here. This is not a minor and inconsequential point. If point number 7 above, or point number 8 above, are false statements, the entire doctrine of the Trinity is proven to be FALSE. And the honest reader will realize there is no escape from that reality.
Conclusion
It is easy to demonstrate that Trinitarian doctrine opposes the Holy Scriptures. While their doctrine says the Son is not the Spirit the Bible says the Son is the Spirit. While their doctrine says the Father is not the Spirit, the Scripture indicates the Father is the Spirit. And even though God the Father says there is no God besides "me" the doctrine of the Trinity declares there are two others who are God too in direct violation of God's very own words. Even if only one point of the eight is wrong the entire doctrine is also wrong. And if we hold the Bible to always be true then the doctrine of the Trinity is proven to be necessarily and absolutely false whether any given individual or group of individuals likes it or not.
"Father... that they many know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent." - Jesus
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Post by Mary on Oct 19, 2014 18:06:24 GMT -5
Ram, do you attend a church - if so which one? Curious to what church does not teach the trinity? I know Oneness Pentecostal doesn't.
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Post by fixit on Oct 19, 2014 23:19:45 GMT -5
Thanks Ram.
I wonder if any of our resident Trinitarians will dare to read what you posted?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 20, 2014 0:34:05 GMT -5
The whole idea of a "trinity or not a trinity" is such a lot of bother over nothing; -a tempest in a teapot, a poot in a whirlwind.
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 1:47:40 GMT -5
It just seemed that you had posted so much about what YOU had said, that I was wondering if you listened to what others had said.
Why should be so earth shaking about "speaking Jesus is God" in Sunday morning meeting?
Because Many of the workers and the friends today do NOT believe Jesus is God.by definition, a son emanates from a father. Was Jesus the son of God, or his own father?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 2:00:03 GMT -5
Ram, do you attend a church - if so which one? Curious to what church does not teach the trinity? I know Oneness Pentecostal doesn't. I attend two Baptist churches. I agree I have issues with them over this. I am more concerned with what the Spirit of God teaches. In both of the churches that I go to there are a number of people who believe as I do. In the main the Protestant churches followed on from the Catholic Church in their belief of the Trinity. They didn't reject everything that Rome offered up. The real truth is that most mainstream "Christians" just accept the Trinity as they have been taught it. They have never really considered it far less studied it. If they did, most would likely reject it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 2:02:49 GMT -5
It just seemed that you had posted so much about what YOU had said, that I was wondering if you listened to what others had said.
Why should be so earth shaking about "speaking Jesus is God" in Sunday morning meeting?
Because Many of the workers and the friends today do NOT believe Jesus is God.Long may this continue and let us pray that they are not led away from the simplicity that is in Christ by enticing doctrines which are of the Devil. May they seek to abide in the words of Jesus that they be his disciples!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 2:26:24 GMT -5
This I know, when people worshipped him, the religious people of His day, took up stones to stone Him to death. He asked for what work they were about to stone Him, they basically answered not for your works, but because you equate yourself with God. He did accept worship, which was forbidden to any man. Oh, those Hebrews got the message alright, even if some do not today. Even His Name which unknowing people deny today, " Yahu''shush" was a type of contraction of God- savior.
My God exists for me now as Father Son and Holy Ghost. To me blasphemy of the Father and Son is to deny them oas God. My Lord, Yahu'shuah said all manner of blasphemy against the Father and Son would be forgiven man, but not blasphemy of the Holy Ghost? Why? To me, it is because that is how God, as Father and Son enter the very being of mankind to make their abode with them as Yahu'shuah promised. That becomes impossible for any not believing the Holy Spirit to be God, for He cannot enter bringing what all He would if He could.
Surely others have noticed the first record of the man calling out, my God was as he hung on the cross, the man, separated from God portion of his existence for the first time sine his birth, thus tasting that separation for all mankind. Then, in returning in human form He did state that He, a man was going back to His God and our God. Then He reassumed His rightful place sitting with His Father in His Father's throne where He is presented as alpha and omega until called upon again to emerge as the Lamb found worthy. Yes, for those unaware of this thought line, that our Lord is like the coin lying on the ground, with a side unseen, they can find verse after verse pointing to our Lord being fully human. That opinion, however does not make Him only human, and not worthy then and now of worship.
One last time, as many times in the past, I point to God as an infinite Spirit here before departing this forum. As such He is nearly incomprehensible for our finite minds, if not completely so. Thus He has given examples of singular substances with a plural existance to help al least me, to understand such a concept in part, anyway. They are, wind, water, and fire.
Peace unto all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 2:28:45 GMT -5
Long may this continue and let us pray that they are not led away from the simplicity that is in Christ by enticing doctrines which are of the Devil. May they seek to abide in the words of Jesus that they be his disciples! We have to agree to disagree on this one. How can it be the doctrine of the devil when the concept of the Triune God; The Father, the son and Holy Spirit exist when the devil wasn't created yet!The concept of triune gods started at Babel. You are reading into the Bible things that aren't there.
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 2:33:34 GMT -5
by definition, a son emanates from a father. Was Jesus the son of God, or his own father? I don't understand your question. Can you word it again so I can understand and answer your question. Thanks.A son must emanate from a father.
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 2:36:03 GMT -5
Thanks Ram. I wonder if any of our resident Trinitarians will dare to read what you posted? Take One thought at a time and we can discuss it. Ram's post was too long. Pick one idea/thought and others Trinitarians and myself will give it a try.Was Jesus fathered by God or by the Holy Spirit?
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 4:02:42 GMT -5
That's rather profound...Jesus was fathered by the Father.
And the Holy Spirit,
And Mary.
I think I'll quit before I get confused!
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Post by bubbles on Oct 20, 2014 4:03:52 GMT -5
It just seemed that you had posted so much about what YOU had said, that I was wondering if you listened to what others had said.
Why should be so earth shaking about "speaking Jesus is God" in Sunday morning meeting?
Because Many of the workers and the friends today do NOT believe Jesus is God.Are you saying they dont believe John 1:1? Do they believe the verse about the word of god being powerful than a double edged sword to dividing soul and spirit? Heb 4: 12
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 4:06:10 GMT -5
A son must emanate from a father. God is Spirit how can he be the Father? There is no male or female in heaven.Is God the father of Jesus?
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Post by Greg on Oct 20, 2014 5:25:31 GMT -5
Because Many of the workers and the friends today do NOT believe Jesus is God.Are you saying they dont believe John 1:1? Do they believe the verse about the word of god being powerful than a double edged sword to dividing soul and spirit? Heb 4: 12 My understanding is that the belief is the Word became flesh, but the Word did not cease be otherwise. So, there was God the Father, His (the) Word, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. Jesus not being God, but as much as can be - God in the flesh. Not a 100% man and 100% God. Just God in the flesh.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Oct 20, 2014 6:37:17 GMT -5
In the gospel meetings I used to attend, any worker who spoke on John 1 would never read, or comment on, the verse that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Presumably, it raised too many questions.
Before leaving I tested the waters on this....
One Sunday morning I spoke on Thomas' understanding of who Jesus is - the Apostles certainly developed a far deeper understanding of who Jesus was (and is) the more time they spent with Him and as they witnessed His death and resurrection they understood the rich relationship within the One God - Father Son and Holy Spirit. I guess my prayer at the time was that I would have a fuller and richer understanding of the risen Lord that we worship and adore...
Clyde Mackay, the Head Worker of New South Wales just happened to be in meeting that morning.
Two weeks later he came back to the meeting (an unusually short interval) and in His testimony publicly rebuked "the brother who mentioned two weeks ago that Jesus was Lord and God". He went on "I just want you to know that it is wrong doctrine that Jesus is God the Son..." There was no phone call in between to talk to me - just the public caning.
The interesting part was that the previous year a senior Canadian worker preached about the "Truth of the Trinity" at the main Sydney convention. Clyde would have been at the convention.
I subsequently talked to another senior brother worker in New South Wales about the nature of God and he said "oh of course we believe in the Trinity...". I said so you believe that Jesus, as the Son of God is also God (the Son). "Oh no", he said "we don't believe that..."
3 different senior workers - 3 different answers. Confused - well yes by the answers but no - it was clear to me that the Canadian worker had sorted out Christian doctrine.
When you are in a group like the 2x2's you can really only go by the local workers. They are ones you have most to do with and set the teaching and tone for the region you are in.
If every senior local worker gave you a slightly different take on things you'd be mightily confused and they do this regularly.
At the last special meeting I attended, 3 workers (they were obviously in some kind of turmoil about questions they were being asked by many professing folks who were in the process of leaving) spoke on the matter of how we saved. With the first senior worker, it was 90% our works and 10% God and then only if you professed thru a worker. The second senior worker was 60/40 with a leaning on God's side. The last senior worker tried to correct it all by saying that salvation was a gift from God and faith also was a gift - but it could only be effective thru the right ministry (ie the workers).
At the following convention one Queensland worker preached that Ephesians 2:8-9 were the favourite verses of the Devil!
So I would say very seriously that if you want to get confused talk to a number of senior workers. On matters of doctrine, they will give you all sorts of answers which will conflict all over the place. People who have complete faith in the ministry won't notice the differences, because it is all spoken by workers so it has to be right.
It's why so many young people are confused these days. Some professing folk just issue the edict "obey and believe the workers and it will be all okay...". Many younger people don't buy this line for a second and are left wondering what to believe. They are completely confused. The sad part about it is that some of them give up on their faith in Christ because "it's just all too hard".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 7:07:20 GMT -5
I quoted this verse on Sunday: John 17:21, "...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.... I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. " I wanted to prove I was God.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 20, 2014 7:42:17 GMT -5
Are you saying they dont believe John 1:1? Do they believe the verse about the word of god being powerful than a double edged sword to dividing soul and spirit? Heb 4: 12 My understanding is that the belief is the Word became flesh, but the Word did not cease be otherwise. So, there was God the Father, His (the) Word, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. Jesus not being God, but as much as can be - God in the flesh. Not a 100% man and 100% God. Just God in the flesh. Jesus is the word Greg. Jesus is the flesh.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 20, 2014 7:42:30 GMT -5
Are you saying they dont believe John 1:1? Do they believe the verse about the word of god being powerful than a double edged sword to dividing soul and spirit? Heb 4: 12 My understanding is that the belief is the Word became flesh, but the Word did not cease be otherwise. So, there was God the Father, His (the) Word, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. Jesus not being God, but as much as can be - God in the flesh. Not a 100% man and 100% God. Just God in the flesh. Jesus is the word Greg. Jesus is the flesh.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 20, 2014 7:44:55 GMT -5
I quoted this verse on Sunday:John 17:21, " ...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.... I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. " I wanted to prove I was God. ?? Its referring to the body of Christ. The church.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 20, 2014 7:52:07 GMT -5
In the gospel meetings I used to attend, any worker who spoke on John 1 would never read, or comment on, the verse that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Presumably, it raised too many questions. Before leaving I tested the waters on this.... One Sunday morning I spoke on Thomas' understanding of who Jesus is - the Apostles certainly developed a far deeper understanding of who Jesus was (and is) the more time they spent with Him and as they witnessed His death and resurrection they understood the rich relationship within the One God - Father Son and Holy Spirit. I guess my prayer at the time was that I would have a fuller and richer understanding of the risen Lord that we worship and adore... Clyde Mackay, the Head Worker of New South Wales just happened to be in meeting that morning. Two weeks later he came back to the meeting (an unusually short interval) and in His testimony publicly rebuked "the brother who mentioned two weeks ago that Jesus was Lord and God". He went on "I just want you to know that it is wrong doctrine that Jesus is God the Son..." There was no phone call in between to talk to me - just the public caning. The interesting part was that the previous year a senior Canadian worker preached about the "Truth of the Trinity" at the main Sydney convention. Clyde would have been at the convention. I subsequently talked to another senior brother worker in New South Wales about the nature of God and he said "oh of course we believe in the Trinity...". I said so you believe that Jesus, as the Son of God is also God (the Son). "Oh no", he said "we don't believe that..." 3 different senior workers - 3 different answers. Confused - well yes by the answers but no - it was clear to me that the Canadian worker had sorted out Christian doctrine. When you are in a group like the 2x2's you can really only go by the local workers. They are ones you have most to do with and set the teaching and tone for the region you are in. If every senior local worker gave you a slightly different take on things you'd be mightily confused and they do this regularly. At the last special meeting I attended, 3 workers (they were obviously in some kind of turmoil about questions they were being asked by many professing folks who were in the process of leaving) spoke on the matter of how we saved. With the first senior worker, it was 90% our works and 10% God and then only if you professed thru a worker. The second senior worker was 60/40 with a leaning on God's side. The last senior worker tried to correct it all by saying that salvation was a gift from God and faith also was a gift - but it could only be effective thru the right ministry (ie the workers). At the following convention one Queensland worker preached that Ephesians 2:8-9 were the favourite verses of the Devil! So I would say very seriously that if you want to get confused talk to a number of senior workers. On matters of doctrine, they will give you all sorts of answers which will conflict all over the place. People who have complete faith in the ministry won't notice the differences, because it is all spoken by workers so it has to be right. It's why so many young people are confused these days. Some professing folk just issue the edict "obey and believe the workers and it will be all okay...". Many younger people don't buy this line for a second and are left wondering what to believe. They are completely confused. The sad part about it is that some of them give up on their faith in Christ because "it's just all too hard". I can see why they were confused. This is why I enjoyed anointed teachers. They build precept upon precept.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 11:24:12 GMT -5
Jesus is the only "begotten" Son of God who is the Father, by the Father's divine power, i.e, the Holy Spirit!
Baby Jesus came into being by the Father's power.
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