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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 11:27:26 GMT -5
That's rather profound...Jesus was fathered by the Father. And the Holy Spirit, And Mary. I think I'll quit before I get confused! Is all in the Bible. Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Okay Nathan, according to the triune God theory, God the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus, NOT God the Father!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 11:32:20 GMT -5
I quoted this verse on Sunday:John 17:21, " ...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.... I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. " I wanted to prove I was God. Here are your proof Jesus was God and Lord/YahwehJesus Christ Claims to be God [/b] NOT just in the gospel of John but in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them. Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father. Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper. Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out. [/quote] Nathan, every one of those references are being taken way out of context to what they really mean. You do not have an understanding of the fact that Jesus represented God and that the Father revealed himself through his Son. Nor do you understand the position that Jesus now holds in heaven reigning with all Majesty at the right hand of God, having received his promise from his Father and God, all power and authority. He is Mighty God as a result of the position he deservedly occupies, not because he is the one true God who is his Father and his God. The Father is still in control "through" his Son Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 11:39:48 GMT -5
Anyone wondering who the Word is/was should really study who the Word (Jesus) said he was. Take the Word's word for it, not mans'. The Word became flesh, i.e. human, and was "FULL OF TRUTH AND GRACE!" Jesus wasn't half truth and grace but Full truth. He didn't "half" reveal who he really was, but fully did so. Did the Word say he was God the Son or did the Word say he was the Son of God. When Phillip baptised the Ethiopian Eunuch what were the conditions of that baptism? That he believed with all his heart that Jesus was the Son of God. Believing this with all our heart leaves no room for God the Son nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 11:49:18 GMT -5
Okay Nathan, according to the triune God theory, God the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus, NOT God the Father! The Birth of Jesus came with the help of God the Father, the Holy Ghost, and Mary. God needed Mary human DNA so he/Jesus could be a human and died a human death to pay for our sins on Calvary's Cross. Jesus is both God the Son, the Son of God and Man.
Hebrews 5:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Nathan, we are told that baby Jesus was "conceived" of the Holy Ghost, not sired by it. This means that Mary was a surrogate Mother. No human (corrupted) DNA in Jesus, otherwise he too would have been born in sin and shapen in iniquity. He was a pure, divine human vessel by the Spirit of God the Father. Adam was "created" a divine vessel, but Jesus was by the "Spirit." Jesus was flesh, i.e, human. John's Gospel is very clear. The Word became flesh, i.e, human, not fully God and fully human, but human. Into this human vessel God the Father poured his Holy Spirit without measure. If Jesus was born fully God, this would have been unnecessary because the Spirit would already have been there. Jesus was a human being begotten fully by the Spirit of God as opposed to being created like Adam, into whom God the Father poured his Spirit continuously which empowered him to be obedient and sinless throughout his life.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 12:01:58 GMT -5
Anyone wondering who the Word is/was should really study who the Word (Jesus) said he was. Take the Word's word for it, not mans'. The Word became flesh, i.e. human, and was "FULL OF TRUTH AND GRACE!" Jesus wasn't half truth and grace but Full truth. He didn't "half" reveal who he really was, but fully did so. Did the Word say he was God the Son or did the Word say he was the Son of God. When Phillip baptised the Ethiopian Eunuch what were the conditions of that baptism? That he believed with all his heart that Jesus was the Son of God. Believing this with all our heart leaves no room for God the Son nonsense. In John chapter 1. It says the Word is God. Jesus is Word God. God is Spirit. There is No male or female in heaven. The Son of God is for human mind to understand God's mind. God is Spirit. The Word is God. Jesus was Spirit of God, he was NOT the Son in heaven before he became Jesus. God the Son and the Son of God is to help humans to understand Godhead.Yes, yes, yes Nathan. The Christian/Trinitarian world just can't get past that opening verse in John's gospel. It's their long time favourite! If you study the whole of John's gospel, which will give you the proper context of that opening statement, you will see exactly how John regarded who the Word/Jesus is. John isn't saying one thing in one chapter or verse and something different in another. It is clear that John understood God to be the Father only, Jesus to be the Son of God and the Holy Spirit to be the Father's divine power.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 12:45:07 GMT -5
Nathan, we are told that baby Jesus was "conceived" of the Holy Ghost, not sired by it. This means that Mary was a surrogate Mother. No human (corrupted) DNA in Jesus, otherwise he too would have been born in sin and shapen in iniquity. He was a pure, divine human vessel by the Spirit of God the Father. Adam was "created" a divine vessel, but Jesus was by the "Spirit." Jesus was flesh, i.e, human. John's Gospel is very clear. The Word became flesh, i.e, human, not fully God and fully human, but human. Into this human vessel God the Father poured his Holy Spirit without measure. If Jesus was born fully God, this would have been unnecessary because the Spirit would already have been there. Jesus was a human being begotten fully by the Spirit of God as opposed to being created like Adam, into whom God the Father poured his Spirit continuously which empowered him to be obedient and sinless throughout his life. Jesus was fully God before Mary was his surrogate mother. Before Jesus was born she called him " the Lord and God My Savior." Luke 1:46-47. Jesus has always been God from Everlasting to Everlasting.Nathan, I think you have contextual study difficulties? Here is what verses 46 and 47 really say (KJV). Luke 1.46 "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour
48. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden:"In these verses Mary is referring to God the Father, the Lord God Almighty! Everlasting means "before the creation of time" and "after time has ended!" Eternal means forever. Jesus was the firstborn of creation. Thereafter God created all things through the Word by his own divine power, the Holy Spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 12:56:07 GMT -5
Here are the rest of the gospel of John where he pointed out Jesus is God and Jesus claimed he was God/I AM that I AM.
1) John 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
A. Back in those days a "son" was equal to his Father because he was of the Father and stood to replace the father at some future time. (In a sense Jesus has done this). Jesus was the express image of God in nature, characteristics and purpose. In this sense he was equal to God because God expressed himself through Jesus his Son. This did not make Jesus equal to God in person though.
2) John 6:45-46 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jesus said he was the God I AM that I AM in the Old Testament.
A. I have already provided you with a link explaining this. Please go back and read it. God speaks through his servant.
3) John 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM/God. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
A. See above. Please read the things I provide for you. Feel free to ignore them but please don't repeat the questions I have provided answers for, unless you are happying the answers..
4) John 10:31-33 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
A. This was a mistake on behalf of the Jews. Jesus did not say he was God but rather that he was the Son of God. In those days a son was regarded in the same manner as a father by being a descendant.
Context Nathan...Context!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 13:07:49 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you have contextual study difficulties? Here is what verses 46 and 47 really say (KJV). Luke 1.46 "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour
48. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden:"In these verses Mary is referring to God the Father, the Lord God Almighty! Everlasting means "before the creation of time" and "after time has ended!" Eternal means forever. Jesus was the firstborn of creation. Thereafter God created all things through the Word by his own divine power, the Holy Spirit. Jesus the son of man was created 2000 yrs ago but Spirit of God in Him was from Everlasting to Everlasting Almighty God.
Jesus said he is the Lord God Almighty! in Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Everlasting means before time was created or after time has ended. You do agree that Jesus was brought forth as the Word before time was created and at the end of time he will hand back all power and authority to his Father after he has defeated all his enemies and a new age is brought in? You do agree that Jesus has been given by his Father and God all power and authority in heaven and earth and is reigning over everything in that position? He is all powerful but has been given this of the Father. As stated in previous posts you completely overlook the opening half verse of Revelation..."The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him:" Jesus is speaking on behalf of the Father!Mary his surrogate mother was correct when she called him, "My Lord, and My God Savior!"A. The Angel told Mary that her baby would be called Mighty God and Wise Counselor." Jesus is reigning as Mighty God by virtue of his position. However, he is NOT God, who is his Father and remains His God.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 13:14:35 GMT -5
I have provided many verses follow AFTER John chapter 1 where John continued to back up his thoughts where it showed Jesus is God the Word. Let the readers decide for themselves that John chapter 1 are NOT the ONLY verses claim Jesus is God/the Word. Those verses are NOT my own interpretation but John own writing of many events taken place in Jesus days. This is the same John who has put on record the following regarding Jesus praying to "his Father!" 17.3 "And this is eternal life , that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ , whom thou hast sent."
This is Jesus the Son of God speaking to HIS Father and HIS God. There can be no mistake whatsoever that Jesus is identifying God the Father as the only true God. There are many other references in John's gospel and Epistles which support this. Not only that but all the other Espistle writers believe exactly the same way. There can be no ambiguity in the above statement of Jesus, unless one wishes to indulges in huge contortions of the truth. If you really want to understand who or what the Word is, consider it in the framework of the above quotation of the Word itself!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 13:54:15 GMT -5
This is the same John who has put on record the following regarding Jesus praying to "his Father!" 17.3 "And this is eternal life , that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ , whom thou hast sent."
This is Jesus the Son of God speaking to HIS Father and HIS God. There can be no mistake whatsoever that Jesus is identifying God the Father as the only true God. There are many other references in John's gospel and Epistles which support this. Not only that but all the other Espistle writers believe exactly the same way. There can be no ambiguity in the above statement of Jesus, unless one wishes to indulges in huge contortions of the truth in John 17. One TRUE God/Elohim... Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are ONE in Spirit, ONE in Unity, and ONE in harmony! Jesus was telling the Truth! The word God refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Do I listen to your interpretation or do I listen to what Jesus clearly states? By the way, I already provided you with information explaining Elohim. According to Jesus, his Father is the one true God. Knowing this one true God (the Father) and Jesus Christ whom this one true God has sent, is the basis for eternal life. Jesus's statement could not be clearer. Abide in HIS words if you wish to be his disciple. Do not be enticed away by the understandings or doctrines of men!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 14:16:11 GMT -5
Is God the father of Jesus? On earth God is the Father of Jesus. However, Before the foundation of the World He wasn't the Father of Jesus. God the Father is Spirit. No male or female in heaven. The Word/Jesus was God/Supreme Being/Spirit.
Jesus is described as "the firstborn of creation." Jesus is also "the Wisdom of God." Read Proverbs 8:22 etc. You will easily see the picture of Jesus in God's wisdom. 1 Cor. 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."
Proverbs 8: 22. "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23. I was set up from everlasting from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there; when he set a compass upon the face of the depth;
28. When he established the clouds above; when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men,
32. Now therefore hearken unto me. O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways."
Who do you think the wisdom of God is, Nathan?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 14:21:26 GMT -5
Do I listen to your interpretation or do I listen to what Jesus clearly states? By the way, I already provided you with information explaining Elohim. According to Jesus, his Father is the one true God. Knowing this one true God (the Father) and Jesus Christ whom this one true God has sent, is the basis for eternal life. Jesus's statement could not be clearer. Abide in HIS words if you wish to be his disciple. Do not be enticed away by the understandings or doctrines of men! If the Father is the ONLY ONE true God. Then why Jesus said he is the Almighty God himself in Revelation 1:8 " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." In Revelation 21:6-7 Jesus said, And he said unto me, It is done. " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." Is Jesus Lying? for saying He is Almighty God we shall be his sons and daughters? or it is because you don't Understand the Word God/Elohim refers to God the Father, the Son/Almighty God, and the Holy Spirit. Nathan you do not understand context. When Jesus spoke this, which he received from HIS Father and His God, he was in the position of having received "all power and authority in heaven and earth." He is reigning in his Father's stead. He is running the company now, but the Father is still the Heid Yin and Jesus's God. Jesus is running the company on behalf of his Father and God and is speaking on behalf of his Father and God. Have you forgotten the first half verse of Revelation already? Have you completely ignored the verses in Revelation where Jesus refers to the Father as HIS God? Jesus is the "beginning," NOT the "has always been!" He was brought forth as the wisdom of God "in the beginning!" We are sons and daughters of God, not Jesus. We are joint-heirs with him. He is the only "begotten" Son of God, but we are his brethren through "adoption."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 15:30:04 GMT -5
Nathan you do not understand context. When Jesus spoke this, which he received from HIS Father and His God, he was in the position of having received "all power and authority in heaven and earth." He is reigning in his Father's stead. He is running the company now, but the Father is still the Heid Yin and Jesus's God. Jesus is running the company on behalf of his Father and God and is speaking on behalf of his Father and God. Have you forgotten the first half verse of Revelation already? Have you completely ignored the verses in Revelation where Jesus refers to the Father as HIS God? Jesus is the "beginning," NOT the "has always been!" He was brought forth as the wisdom of God "in the beginning!" We are sons and daughters of God, not Jesus. We are joint-heirs with him. He is the only "begotten" Son of God, but we are his brethren through "adoption." Let me make it clearer for you. God the Word WAS God and WITH God/the Father in the Beginning..... The Word begotten by the Father/Holy Spirit to be the Son of Man Jesus 2000 yrs ago. The Word has been with the Father from the beginning before the foundation of the Universe, the heavens, and the earth were formed by them, and the Word became Man/God 2000 yrs ago. The Word has ALWAY been Eternal just like the Father is Eternal. Both God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son of God bear true witness in the New Testament that Jesus Christ is the SON OF GOD only! By no other name can anyone be saved, other than Jesus Christ the Son of God. God the Son, Jesus is God, Trinity etc have NO saving power. We must believe with ALL of our heart that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God. That is the clear testimony of the New Testament. Why do you want to see Jesus as something other than what God the Father revealed him as? Is God's provision of salvation not good enough for you? Is it too simple? Do you want some advanced doctrine to entice you? God the Father made provision that we must believe with all our hearts that Jesus Christ is his only beloved Son and that only by believing in the Son of God can we be saved. God the Son is a huge distraction. It is not Biblical. It is the Devil's deception. Please do not deceive any longer those in your meeting. Encourage them to believe only in the saviour that God the Father sent, i.e, Jesus Christ the Son of God! Jesus Christ's testimony of himself is TRUE. It is corroborated by God the Father. Truth seems to be something you are reluctant to embrace! Why would you EVER want to believe in Jesus being anything other than who God the Father himself revealed him as? Why would you ever deny Jesus to be whom he "fully" revealed himself as? Seek eternal life by getting to know the only true God, i.e. who is the Father, and Jesus Christ whom he sent, as Jesus prayed we would. If we abide in the words of Jesus, we are his disciples. Do not be a disciple of the Devil by promoting enticing ideas outside his words!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 16:24:00 GMT -5
God – a single entity and not a trinity
A balanced view of God
To get a balanced and consistent view of who and what God is we must surely, have to take the whole of the Biblical record into account. We shall start with some references from the beginning of the Bible to see what the early believers in God wrote.
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD” Deuteronomy 6:4
“Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isaiah 45:5
“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me…” Isaiah 46:9
So from these few verses we have seen that God has not once described himself as being three in one. No where in the Old Testament, or in the whole Bible for that matter, is mentioned the word Trinity. God has only said he is one being.
What does Jesus say about God? And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he (Jesus) had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:28-29
So Jesus believes and supports the statement made in the old testament that God is one being.
The popular belief that God, is three beings in one (the Father, the son and the Holy spirit) is nowhere found in the scriptures. Consider Christs own words:
“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” John 5:30
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28
So is this a third part of almighty God speaking as some suggest? If so, Jesus was in subjection to the other third of his supposed being – “God the father”. If the view of the trinity is true then each third must have a ranking system. God the Father at the top and the others somewhere underneath him – but remember that the suggestion is that they are all one person according to the argument of the Trinity, so it is impossible for one being to have parts of it which are of higher authority than other parts of it. Consider this verse:
Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Luke 22:42
Jesus was in complete subjection to the fathers will, but he had a will of his own. This clearly shows that they were not one person but two completely different beings, having their own wills.
Another point we could bring out is that the Bible teaches that God knew things that Jesus didn’t – this of course would be an impossibility if they were the same being:
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32
What did the early Christians believe? For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Timothy 2:5
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8v6
Notice how the apostle Paul believes that there is one God and one Lord Jesus. They are two different beings – not part of a trinity. Again we could mention here that the word “trinity” is nowhere to be found in the Bible but mainstream Christianity holds it up as a core doctrine.
Other Evidence to show that Jesus and God are not part of the trinity God cannot be tempted “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man” James 1:13
James tells us God cannot be tempted. Jesus was:
“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” Hebrews 4:15
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews 2:14
How could God be tempted to sin against himself?! God makes the laws and therefore it is impossible for God to sin or even be tempted to sin.
God cannot die Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Psalms 90:2
So God is everlasting. However Jesus died and was in the grave for 3 days:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18
God cannot be seen In Timothy we read how that God dwells “in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 6:16). But Jesus dwelt on earth and was seen of hundreds of people!
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18
So Jesus then, declared God but cannot of been God himself because “No man has seen God at any time”.
The relationship between God and Jesus Christ Although Jesus was not God, he was a manifestation of how God wants men to live. He thought like God, he obeyed God’s every command, he was the very likeness of God – BUT he was not God himself. Consider the following verses:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9
We can see that Jesus was a manifestation of God. He even tells us this himself:
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.John 17:16
Manifested means “to clearly show”. He clearly showed what God wants us to be like to such an extent that he could say this:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
In the light of the verses previously presented this cannot mean that Jesus was one being with the Father. All it is saying is that Jesus was one in purpose with God. This can clearly be prooved by examining what Christ says a little later in John:
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:20-21
The believers in Christ’s time were not part of the trinity (but if you take John 10:30 to mean that then, following this logic they must be!).
Where does the belief in the trinity come from? We have seen how that, throughout the Bible God is only described as being one being. We have seen how that Jesus and the early followers of Christ also believed this and clearly taught it. So where and how has this view of the trinity come from?
Our history books show us that the belief comes from a creed called the Athinasian creed. It was published and imposed in the forth century after Christ died, about 300 years after Jesus walked the earth. The Romans used this creed when they changed from being Pagans to so called Christians and this Creed is still used in Churches around us today and is the basis of The Roman Catholic faith and the basis of the other faiths who have split from the Catholics. Here is a quote from it:
“The Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the father another of the son and another of the holy ghost. But the Godhead of the father, of the son and of the holy ghost is all one, the glory equal the majesty co-eternal.”
Now we notice that none of this is backed up by scripture, the true word of God. Surly any true follower of God would have written in the relevant passages so that everyone could understand and know why this creed had to be obeyed. But there is not one.
The belief in the trinity is showed by nearly all history books to of been put in place after the early apostles and therefore is admitted to not of been what the early Christians believed. In a historical book called “The Doctrine of the trinity” by a Mr. P.E.White (who is a Catholic) we read this:
“From the very first the rule has been as a matter of fact, for the Church to preach the Truth, and then appeal to scripture in vindication of its own teaching.”
Sadly we feel that he is speaking truth. But why do so many follow after the belief of the Trinity? The answer is simple. They do not check it for themselves with what the Bible teaches. Consider Jesus Christ’s words:
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
So it is to the Bible we must turn, and when we do, we do not find any evidence to suggest that God is made up of three beings.
Author: M. Davies, Nottingham, Feb 2009
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 4:41:34 GMT -5
I quoted this verse on Sunday:John 17:21, " ...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.... I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. " I wanted to prove I was God. ?? Its referring to the body of Christ. The church. Follow triniatarian logic to its natural conclusion: God, the son and the holy spirit are One. The church becomes ONE with the trinity. Each member is ONE with their church. Therefor I am God.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 21, 2014 5:02:53 GMT -5
Christ being the 'head'of the church. Eph 4:15 Christ head of the body Col 1:18 Members of the body 1 Cor 12:27 Rom 12:4,5 The holy spirit dwells in us. We are the temple of the holy spirit. 1 Cor 6:19
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 7:43:27 GMT -5
DOES THIS:-
"The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind; but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul." (From A Handbook of Christian Truth by Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, pp. 51-52)
SOUND LIKE THIS?
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Is Jesus asking the impossible?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 7:52:29 GMT -5
Like I wrote many Times: El/God is singular. One being speaking... El/God the Father; EL/God Yahweh Almighty/the Son; EL God Holy Spirit.
I have provided plenty of explanations in previous posts. How about you read some of the things I post, or better, try once, even once, to address the points I raise instead of ignoring them and repeating already addressed references.
In Genesis 1:26 Speaking Together they (The Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit) became ELohim Plural. God/Elohim said in Genesis, "Let US make man in OUR image, and in OUR likeness.."
Okay, so Jesus was with his Father at the beginning of Creation. He is the image of God and the likeness of God. Nothing new there. God says to Jesus, "Let us make man in our image and likeness!" God the Father then creates man in his image through Jesus (the Word), by his divine power, the Holy Ghost. What's so difficult about that. It's simple!
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:And the Lord said (to the Word/Jesus), Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil......." Being "of God" or "from God," brought forth by God, etc., does NOT imply "is actually" God! Don't complicate the simplicity of God!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 11:32:41 GMT -5
DOES THIS:- "The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind; but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul." (From A Handbook of Christian Truth by Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, pp. 51-52)SOUND LIKE THIS? John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."Is Jesus asking the impossible? Godhead wants us to understand and KNOW who they are! So, we can truly worship THEM in Spirit and in Truth. God doesn't want to keep His children in the DARK, confuse in KNOWING who they are. These things come by Revelation little by little, one thing at a time because our humans minds can't understanding the minds of God all at once. Did you notice that Jesus used the term "thee" (or at least the translators did), rather than "they." A suggestion. Learn some old English. Jesus is addressing a "singular" only true God, ie the Father! Please show me in the Bible where God wants us to worship "them" in Spirit and Truth. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.Notice God is a singular spirit and is a singular God. All in the one sentence too! How you manage to extrapolate "they" from that sentence is beyond me! If you truly want to know about revelation, just do a "proper" study of how Peter, Paul et al regarded Jesus and God in their epistles. Oh and by the way, have you noticed they clearly do not recognise the Holy Ghost as a person>?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 11:45:17 GMT -5
DOES THIS:- "The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind; but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul." (From A Handbook of Christian Truth by Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, pp. 51-52)SOUND LIKE THIS? John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."Is Jesus asking the impossible? Godhead wants us to understand and KNOW who they are! So, we can truly worship THEM in Spirit and in Truth. God doesn't want to keep His children in the DARK, confuse in KNOWING who they are. These things come by Revelation little by little, one thing at a time because our humans minds can't understanding the minds of God all at once. God's Holy Spirit teaches us and leads us into all righteousness. Humans can be, but not always be, agents through whom the Holy Spirit works. God gives his (teaching) Spirit to those who do his will (obedience). One major act of obedience is to abide in the words of Jesus if we are to be his disciples. If you step outside his words (abideth not in Christ) you will be led astray, easy prey for the wicked one. He is always ready to lure you away from the truth of Jesus with his enticing doctrines which seem attractive to the human mind, but do not measure up against the words of Jesus. One clear example of this is that the Devil has turned the words of God, i.e. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, around to read something totally different, i.e, Jesus Christ, God the Son. By accepting this you are accepting a different Jesus to whom God sent and a different God altogether. Enjoy your Pagan worship Nathan! 1 Cor. 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ!"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 12:01:28 GMT -5
Don't complicate the simplicity of God! You're almost getting there, Ram. Can you give me your understanding what does God do for us to call Him God? What are some of the qualification to be God?Okay Nathan spill the beans. Something tells me I'm going to need some more patience?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 13:24:27 GMT -5
Did you notice that Jesus used the term "thee" (or at least the translators did), rather than "they." A suggestion. Learn some old English. Jesus is addressing a "singular" only true God, ie the Father! Please show me in the Bible where God wants us to worship "them" in Spirit and Truth. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.Notice God is a singular spirit and is a singular God. All in the one sentence too! How you manage to extrapolate "they" from that sentence is beyond me! Worshipping God the Father and the Son/Jesus~~ Mathew 2:1-2 The wise men came to worship Jesus
~~ Matt 8:2 A leper came and worship Jesus
~~ Matt 9:18 A certain ruler came to worship Jesus
~~ Matt 15:25 A woman came to worship Jesus
~~ Luke 24:52 The Disciples of Jesus worship Him
~~ Hebrews 1:6 The angels of God worship Jesus
~~ Revelation 4:1-11 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.Nathan, "context" continues to be your problem. Here is a little essay to increase your understanding: www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christNow consider what Jesus said to the man who called him "good!" Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
Surely by now the following advice from Jesus should be sinking in? "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39
Keep in mind too the context of Jesus post resurrection position where the human being Jesus in his glorified body has been given "all power and authority in heaven and earth, and is sitting on his throne in all his Majesty reigning as King of Kings at the right hand of God, with full control of God's divine power. By virtue of his position Jesus is reigning as Mighty God and Wise Counselor until he defeats all his enemies. Afterwards he returns that power and authority to his Father and God. And think it not strange that if you abide in the words of Jesus, you will be a joint heir with Jesus of all that power and glory and you too will be worshipped and served by angels.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 13:37:59 GMT -5
Okay Nathan spill the beans. Something tells me I'm going to need some more patience? Definition of God
1) Capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a. Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b. Divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind 2) A being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship 3) A person or thing of supreme value. 4) A powerful ruler.
~~ God the Father and Jesus/the I AM that I AM Almighty God have fulfilled the qualification above for the believers to worship THEM as God/Elohim. Nathan, have a careful study of each of the items listed above. Jesus is reigning with all his Father's power and authority as Mighty God and Wise Counselor. He is still the Son of the only true God who is his Father. The Book of Revelation makes that abundantly clear. None of what you have referenced/quoted makes Jesus the actual Almighty God. Jesus has "inherited" these titles by virtue of his righteousness, victory and position. Try looking up a definition for "context!"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 13:44:13 GMT -5
Nathan, "context" continues to be your problem. Here is a little essay to increase your understanding: www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christNow consider what Jesus said to the man who called him "good!" Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."Surely by now the following advice from Jesus should be sinking in? "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39
~~~ Oh, Ram.... Ye of little faith with little understanding of the Triune God in whom we serve and worship... In Mark 10:18 Jesus was saying he is God! He is One of the 3 true God/Elohim/plural. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.NathanB: I enjoyed what Wally posted in Luke 4 gospel where Jesus reminded Satan that He was still Satan's, Lord/Yahweh I AM God. Satan was casting doubt with the word " IF Thou be the Son of God..." And Jesus replied to Satan, that He is the Lord God I AM Himself, NO! IF about it.
Luke 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: Luke 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: Luke 4:11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Nathan, please take a leaf out of the Ethiopian Eunuchs book. Who speaketh this this man, himself or another> The answer to your ecstatic error is in the very words of the verses you quoted! This is getting real bad. What did Satan say?? He said "For it is written, he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee."
Who is Satan referring to? God the Father isn't it? Who is Satan tempting? God the Father isn't it? He is trying to tempt God to save his only begotten Son Jesus! God cannot be tempted. The Son of God stood firm and glorified his heavenly father in doing so.
Nathan, you are starting to really clutch at straws. Please take time to read the portions you are quoting in their right context.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 13:52:40 GMT -5
Nathan, I am finding it extremely exhausting having all this dialogue and I need a rest. Your brilliant efforts have slung me bruised, battered and near defeated, against the ropes. I am going away for three days from tomorrow to recover with some fine Scottish Highland air and I need to get my gear in order. You now have the chance to deliver the knock out blow as I will not be able to reply for a short while. Go for it my friend. I was going to say it is "No contest," but I think the real truth is that it is "No context!" Go deliver your No Context blow!
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Post by Mary on Oct 21, 2014 15:29:16 GMT -5
You guys (Nathan and Ram) both have scripture to support your beliefs. You have just about re written the Bible. To me if God really cared about it He would have made it a lot clearer. I am sure our salvation does not rest on whether we believe in the trinity or not. I do believe in it, but acknowledge there is a lot for the other view too. Believing in the trinity does give a whole dimension to our worship but then I believe that the 2x2s do not have this dimension in their worship that those in charismatic churches do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 17:21:41 GMT -5
I am sure our salvation does not rest on whether we believe in the trinity or not. i can agree with that part of your statement...
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Post by déjà vu on Oct 21, 2014 23:03:51 GMT -5
In this town we definitely believe in the trinity ,because one of the friends kids is named , you guessed it TRINITY
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