|
Post by dmmichgood on Oct 22, 2014 0:56:43 GMT -5
In this town we definitely believe in the trinity ,because one of the friends kids is named , you guessed it TRINITY Poor little kid!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 3:31:04 GMT -5
You guys (Nathan and Ram) both have scripture to support your beliefs. You have just about re written the Bible. To me if God really cared about it He would have made it a lot clearer. I am sure our salvation does not rest on whether we believe in the trinity or not. I do believe in it, but acknowledge there is a lot for the other view too. Believing in the trinity does give a whole dimension to our worship but then I believe that the 2x2s do not have this dimension in their worship that those in charismatic churches do. The 2x2 have the true Dimension Worship of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit in the Sunday Morning meetings when they come together to celebrate in remembrance of Jesus life, death and resurrection, where the believers can take parts in sharing their testimonies and partake the Eucharists/Thanksgivings.
Believing in the Triune God gives us a better picture of the God/Elohim in whom we Love, adore and worship. We have a complete picture of the Godhead= God the Father, Jesus the son of God and God the Son (Two sides of Jesus), and Holy Spirit.
Nathan, I have just made a quick look in here before I rush out the door. People in meetings "rightly" recognise God as the Father only. Jesus was, is and will forever be "God's servant." God deals with all humanity through his servant, not through another god or part of a god. Jesus was God's servant in the OT as well as in the NT. God clearly stated in the OT that he would share his glory with only his servant. God does everything through his servant. We can only approach God through his servant. This servant is worthy of all glory and praise. God's servant presents God to the world. The servant is the public face or representative of God. Many, many theologians make the mistake of forming ideas and opinions around incorrectly "accepted fact" that the Trinity is true and also a misunderstanding of what "divinity" or deity really means. They often get the topic they are dealing with right, but it is poisoned by their false indoctrination on such things like Trinity and divinity. We worship Jesus as the Son of God who is God's obedient servant, NOT because he IS God or part of a god! That is a better understanding. Far better, wouldn't you agree?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 22, 2014 12:37:50 GMT -5
With all the discussion on this thread, I will try to speak/share this coming Sunday morning meeting about the concept/teaching of the Trinity=Triune God exists before the foundation of the world, in the Old Testament and New Testament and through the centuries.... before the early church fathers came up with the terminology to describe Godhead as the Trinity in the 2nd century and at the council of Nicene 3rd century. I will try to keep it short and simple, Ram. Nathan, have you asked God what he would like you to share in the Sunday AM meeting?
|
|
|
Post by Greg on Oct 22, 2014 18:28:32 GMT -5
With all the discussion on this thread, I will try to speak/share this coming Sunday morning meeting about the concept/teaching of the Trinity=Triune God exists before the foundation of the world, in the Old Testament and New Testament and through the centuries.... before the early church fathers came up with the terminology to describe Godhead as the Trinity in the 2nd century and at the council of Nicene 3rd century. I will try to keep it short and simple, Ram. Nathan, have you asked God what he would like you to share in the Sunday AM meeting? I was wondering if Nathan was moved by the Holy Spirit or by TMB.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 10:07:59 GMT -5
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus…”
This is one of the great and clear texts in the debate as to who Jesus really is. If Jesus were God, this would have been a wonderful place to say it. Instead, Jesus is clearly called “a person” using the Greek word anthropos, “person, human, man.” The lexicons state that it is “man” in contract with animals, plants, angels, and of course, God. The Greek text reads that there is one mediator between God and “mankind,” or “people,” “a person” or “a man”, Jesus Christ. Although Trinitarians say that this refers only to his human nature, that is an interpolation, not the text of Scripture. If Jesus were a God-man, this would be one of the many places to say it, but Scripture never says it, ever. Instead, Jesus is stated to be a member of the human race, just as the Old Testament prophecies foretold he would be.
This verse is commonly translated, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” but there is no definite article, no “the” in the Greek text before “man, Christ Jesus.” Adding the “the” before “man” distorts the verse a little, as if it were saying that Jesus was “the man.” This verse is not pointing out that Jesus is “the” man, it is pointing out that he is “a man,” “a person,” a human being. Romans 5 shows that it was a person who sinned and got mankind into the mess it is in, and it was a person, Jesus, who got us out of that mess.
|
|
bulsi
Junior Member
WHAT WE DO IN LIFE ECHOES IN ETERNITY !
Posts: 197
|
Post by bulsi on Oct 24, 2014 10:38:35 GMT -5
"Did God literally and visibly walk in the garden (Genesis 3:8)?"
Genesis 3:8 says, “And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.”
To make a sound you have to physical in some form......and was it the form of what Jesus was to come here on earth.... after all he made man in his image.... Thanks again Nathan
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 11:19:49 GMT -5
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus…”This is one of the great and clear texts in the debate as to who Jesus really is. If Jesus were God, this would have been a wonderful place to say it. Instead, Jesus is clearly called “a person” using the Greek word anthropos, “person, human, man.” The lexicons state that it is “man” in contract with animals, plants, angels, and of course, God. The Greek text reads that there is one mediator between God and “mankind,” or “people,” “a person” or “a man”, Jesus Christ. Although Trinitarians say that this refers only to his human nature, that is an interpolation, not the text of Scripture. If Jesus were a God-man, this would be one of the many places to say it, but Scripture never says it, ever. Instead, Jesus is stated to be a member of the human race, just as the Old Testament prophecies foretold he would be. This verse is commonly translated, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” but there is no definite article, no “the” in the Greek text before “man, Christ Jesus.” Adding the “the” before “man” distorts the verse a little, as if it were saying that Jesus was “the man.” This verse is not pointing out that Jesus is “the” man, it is pointing out that he is “a man,” “a person,” a human being. Romans 5 shows that it was a person who sinned and got mankind into the mess it is in, and it was a person, Jesus, who got us out of that mess. ~~ Ram, you wrote in the past and now that God the Father is ONLY ONE true God..... Then why did God the Father Called the Son, "God and LORD/Yahweh" in Hebrews 1:8-12 can you explain those verses to us? Was God the Father wrong by making the biggest mistake or committing a cardinal's sin by calling His Son, " God and LORD/Yahweh"? when The Father was to be the ONLY true God and NOT His son. Thanks. Nathan my friend, this has been explained to you over and over again. Anyway, a short recap. Jesus was/is God's servant in the OT, brought forth from God by God's divine power, the Holy Spirit. We clearly see this in the Wisdom of God, i.e. Jesus. God, who is the Father would not share his glory with any other than his servant....NOT a co-equal God figure!! Being brought forth in this manner does not mean that Jesus is God. He is God's servant who fully represents him. Anyway, before addressing your question, consider the following which should help you to see things in context? Acts.2: 29-36. Peter speaking at Pentecost. Please read these verses in a simple manner. They mean what they say" 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, [faccording to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; /font]
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[/font] In considering the verses you are interested in from Hebrews, you must remember what God promised to grant his fully human, servant Son. All Power and authority in heaven and earth which comes from being given personal control of the Father's (God's) divine power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind the context of Hebrews ch. 1: 8-12. When the Angel spoke to Mary she was told that the baby inside her would be called "Mighty God and wise counselor," because of what he would become once he had received all power and authority from God the Father. Jesus's title "Mighty God" is NOT because he is God or THE Almighty God, but is a title he acquired as a result of his victory over the World the Flesh and the Devil, successful completion of all the Father sent him to do. God the Father has given all power and authority as inheritance to his only begotten Son who is now reigning as Lord of Lords, King of Kings in all his Majesty at the right hand of God. Jesus is running the show until he defeats all his enemies, the last of which is death and then he returns control of the Holy Ghost to his Father. This is why I said earlier that Jesus was "Acting Lord God Almighty." He is currently running the company as it were! After Jesus's resurrection, he received his inheritance from his Father. Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness, above thy fellows.
10. And, Thou Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thy hands;
11. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment.
12. And as a vesture thou shalt fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." When God calls Jesus "O God," he is referring to Jesus's inherited position as ruler over heaven and earth in his Father's stead. Jesus is Mighty God by virtue of his position, NOT through his personage. God the Father remains Jesus's Father AND God as verse 9 clearly testifies to. Think this not strange, but WE are joint heirs with Christ if we continue to the end. Jesus will have the pre-eminence as a husband has to a bride, but we will reign alongside Jesus one day, crowned with a righteous crown and judging the World. Gone will be our human nature. The divine spirit of God will be our nature in our glorified bodies. We too will be part of "Mighty God," as we are joint heirs to all the Father's promises alongside Jesus.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 11:48:17 GMT -5
Sorry, Ram I don't buy your interpretation, and by reading your above post you still don't fully understand Godhead- Triune God. Jesus is NOT "Acting" as the Almighty God. He is and has ALWAYS been the Almighty God from eternity. You're getting closer, and closer Ram! but NOT there yet. Nathan.... Think about "Godhead!" What is "Godhead?" The head of God? Okay, where is the BODY of God? Who is/are the body of God? Godhead is only used once (I think) in the KJV of the Bible and it is in reference to Jesus "in whom the Godhead dwells bodily." Contextually God is far more than just God the Father and Jesus the Son of God, but includes every true believer as well as the angels, all made one through the uniting and indwelling Holy Spirit. of whom the Father IS THE HEAD! Jesus himself said the Father was IN HIM! You clearly do not understand my reference "Acting" used in business circles. Try temporary or currently. Jesus acquired the title "Mighty God" after his resurrection. Can you show this to be otherwise? The concept of triune gods originated with the Pagans/heathens. I have clearly shown this. We are commanded in Deuteronomy NOT to follow the way of the heathen. The first of God's ten commandments specifically addressed worshipping heather gods, yet Christendom by and large has been deceived into doing this through worshipping the Trinity! You also clearly believe the Holy Spirit is a separate person within this thing called the Trinity. A short study of your Bible should put the sword to this idea?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 12:15:49 GMT -5
"The Mystery of the Godhead"
The title of this chapter, which is a man-made phrase and not a Scriptural one, should not mislead any reader into thinking that the intention is to explain all about the Deity in one short article. Indeed, all that we may learn about God in this life is but a fragment of the reality which we shall come to know during our enjoyment of eonian life. In fact, what is true now is doubly true then, "this is eonian life, to know Thee, the one true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent."
But because popular assumptions about this important subject are so unsatisfactory, it is essential for those who wish to believe God and not men to have a knowledge of what He, Himself, reveals in His Word for our understanding and instruction, and for our acceptance by faith. After all, the purpose of Gods revelation is to REVEAL, and He does not do this by putting in His record things which we are not supposed to understand. There are many things about which the Scriptures are silent, and perhaps the purpose is that we should not seek to understand them, but the infinite value of these same Scriptures lies in the fact that they are a revelation, and one which constantly unfolds upon reverent research. Many Christians labour under the impression that all is known, and all that is left for them is to learn the various dogmas by heart.
The words of our title sound most profound, and much has been made of them down the ages. This is a mystery so mysterious that it defies coherent thought, but the mystery is a product of minds which evolved fantastic doctrines, and is not in the plain declarations of Scripture about which they have woven their intricate (though not very substantial) network of inference and reasoning.
To harbour any doubts about the so-called "doctrine of the Trinity" is regarded as the gravest heresy, but the word Trinity appears nowhere in Scripture. I think that the doctrine can be fairly stated in these words
There is only one God, but there are three persons who are called God, and they are described as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And these three persons are one and not three.
The Scriptures, nevertheless, teach in no uncertain terms that there is ONE GOD, to which our faith readily assents. The Scriptures moreover, do NOT teach that there are three PERSONS who are called God, in fact they never use the word PERSONS in speaking of the relationship between God, His Spirit and His Son. The fact that an unscriptural term is the basis of the doctrine is a sure sign of something amiss. Apparently God is unable to express Himself without human help. It would be useful to the believer if he had a built-in warning light which began to flash as soon as he found himself thinking in unscriptural terms in the attempt to express Scripture!
We should be grateful that God never asks us to torture our minds by trying to make them reason that One is Three, and Three are not Three but One; actually, no direct statement of Scripture can be produced to teach the doctrine of the Trinity; it must all be "deduced" and "inferred," which is a very dangerous procedure and an almost certain way in which to find error.
If a Scripture can be produced which speaks of Three Persons who together comprise a Triune God then our faith would have to accept it, and leave God to explain something that the finite mind can never grasp. Lacking such a Scripture, we cannot show any interest in the maunderings of the theologians.
What, then, do the Scriptures teach regarding the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
First and foremost, we are informed that God is Spirit and is invisible (Col.1:15). He is therefore outside the range of the human senses and can be neither seen nor heard. Concerning His Son, we are told that He is Gods Image (portraying God the invisible as He really is) and His Word or Logos (making God audible). So that if God wishes to appear before the eyes of men, or to speak words which men can understand, He does so by His Image and His Word. This Scriptural statement is clear and intelligible to all.
In the Philippian Epistle we are told that Christ subsisted in the FORM of God. If Christ and God were identically the same" person " these words have no meaning, but since in all appearance HE IS GOD, it would not be wrong (as the writer suggests) for Him to assume equality with God. But if God and Christ are the same "person" what is the point in speaking of a persons equality with himself?
All the worship due to God, so far as we can offer it, is rightfully offered to Christ, for to us, He is God. He is God visible and audible, but not identical in essence with the Deity, for then we could not see or hear Him. He is a portrayal of what God looks like--He is God revealed and heard. In other words, to see God we must look upon Christ His image, to hear God we must listen to Christ His Word.
Scripture tells us that God is "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"; in other words, God sustains a relationship to Christ which is different from that which Christ has to Him, He is Christs Father and His God. And according to our Lord, God "sent" Him, which effectively proves that the Son is not the Absolute Deity--if He were He could not be "sent." This effectively disposes of the Trinitarian doctrine that " all three persons are co-equal," for no son is equal with the father who derived him, and who commissions him to do certain work.
In the wonderful Colossian epistle (to what heights this writing ascends !) there is a masterly summary of the relationship between Christ and God, in the 9th verse, "in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Deity bodily," or as the C.V. translates it, "the entire complement of the Deity." A complement is that which makes up a complete whole, and since God is out of range of the human perceptions, in revealing Himself (as He desires to do) He comes within our comprehensions and is seen and heard in His Christ. Christ is the embodiment of revelation ; always it is His Father, and His Fathers will, that he reveals, not Himself. In doing so He becomes God to us, the only God we can ever see and hear--the complement of the Deity. He is entitled to the worship and honour due to the Father Whom He reveals.
Truly, He does make the claim that" I and my Father are One," but this is certainly no assertion that They are one and the same "person." They are one in all that They do, as He constantly asserted when upon this earth. The Fathers will, not His own, was His delight, and the works that He did were His Fathers too. He prayed that His disciples might all be one "even as Thou, 0 Father art in Me, and I in Thee," but even the most twisted theology has not yet attempted to make this prayer mean that He wanted them made into one "Person," despite the fact that the Lord requested that the disciples might be "one, even as we are one." This scripture alone should suffice to prove the meaning of" one-ness" as our Lord intended it to be understood. Incidentally, if Christ is identical with Absolute Deity, He could not have made this prayer, or any other, for there cannot possibly be anyone superior to the Deity, to whom a prayer could be offered.
Our Lord always gloried in the fact that His authority was given to Him, and that all whom He saves are given to Him, and His words are full of references to His having been sent to do works which were not His own, but the works of Him that sent Him. There are very many instances which might be cited to show the unity between Christ and His God, and many also to show the contrasts between Them, but nowhere can be found any evidence to support the idea that they are two "Persons" of a mythical Godhead, of equal power and identical personality.
The Trinitarian doctrine goes even further in trying to make a third "Person" out of the Holy Spirit, a separate "personality" from God which is at the same time identically one with Him. We have many references in Scripture to "the spirit of Christ," so if this foolish line of reasoning is to be followed we might as well make out that Christs spirit is a separate "person" from Christ, and so make FOUR of it.
If we are to use this imported term "person," we can point out that Christ did not have two" persons" as His Father, but One. However, He is spoken of as the Son of God, yet we are definitely told that His birth was by the Holy Spirit. Obviously, the Holy Spirit cannot be a separate "person" from God.
In the book of Genesis, God says "Let us make man in our image," and these words have been made an excuse for surmising that He is addressing two other Gods who are also Himself! If the King addresses His ministers as " we," or the Editor of a magazine refers in his editorial to "we," does this endow them with split personalities and make them into "plurals "?
It is always a relief, like a refreshing draught of pure air, to turn away from the theologians and look at the Scripture. No wonder the Psalmist said "Cease from man!" If we need understanding of these matters, the articles of our faith are clearly written. In I. Corinthians 8, verses 5 and 6, we read this:
"There are many gods and many lords, nevertheless to us there is ONE GOD THE FATHER, out of Whom all is and we for Him, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him."
That would appear to be clear, concise, and self-explanatory, as distinct from any theological doctrine.
To quote an excellent note written years ago by the late A. E. Knoch, "Trinity pervades false religions, unity is the test of the true. The Mohamniedans have a trinity of mediators, for they canonize Moses and Jesus and Mohammed. They acknowledge a trinity of prophets. Christianity recognises three Gods, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
But the Scriptures repudiate both these trinities. Moses and Mohammed have no right to be listed with our Saviour.
There is One God, the Father, out of Whom all is, so also there is One Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is. The Son is the channel, not the source of all. The Spirit is not a distinct personality from God Himself. He IS Spirit. That is His essence, and apart from His holy spirit He has no personality. The Scriptures present no pantheon."
THERE IS ONE GOD
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 12:34:18 GMT -5
Nathan.... Think about "Godhead!" What is "Godhead?" The head of God? ~~ Godhead= God of the Most High, Christ/Almighty God, and Holy Spirit. These are titles of God so we human can understand heavenly realm.Okay, where is the BODY of God? Who is/are the body of God? ~~ God is Spirit. There is no male or female in heaven.Godhead is only used once (I think) in the KJV of the Bible and it is in reference to Jesus "in whom the Godhead dwells bodily." ~~ The word Godhead used 3 times in the Bible. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9 Contextually God is far more than just God the Father and Jesus the Son of God, but includes every true believer as well as the angels, all made one through the uniting and indwelling Holy Spirit. of whom the Father IS THE HEAD! Jesus himself said the Father was IN HIM! You clearly do not understand my reference "Acting" used in business circles. Try temporary or currently. Jesus acquired the title "Mighty God" after his resurrection. Can you show this to be otherwise? ~~ John chapter 1:1-3 Jesus God the word is NOT acting/temporary Almighty God. He has always been God the Almighty! In the beginning was the Word and the Word WAS with God and the Word WAS God.
Jesus has ALWAYS been God as the Almighty before His resurrection.... in the Old Testament Exodus 6:3 And I/Jesus/Yashuah appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.The concept of triune gods originated with the Pagans/heathens. I have clearly shown this. We are commanded in Deuteronomy NOT to follow the way of the heathen. The first of God's ten commandments specifically addressed worshipping heather gods, yet Christendom by and large has been deceived into doing this through worshipping the Trinity! You also clearly believe the Holy Spirit is a separate person within this thing called the Trinity. A short study of your Bible should put the sword to this idea? I wrote to you many times the Trinity-Triune God exist before the foundation of the world, and before anything was form before any beings, form of pagans religions.1) Someone wrote: Nathan, when/if you speak in meeting, do you refer to Jesus as Y'shua? English translation Jesus for now. I Can't change hundred years custom/tradition using His Hebrew name Y'SHUAH over night, the workers and friends will think you're CRAZY. This message board is good, to share the formation, explanation and preparing people for it. It's good to understand and know Our Savior's name in Hebrew language is Y'SHUAH/God's personal name. Y'SHUAH is God in nature/form, Spirit like unto the Father. Y'SHUAH is eternal, Creator of all things, incarnated as a human being to die for our sins and he became a Savior of mankind. The name Jesus shows no Divinity of His TRUE name Y'SHUAH God's personal name. TRIUNE God. The word Trinity was first used by the apostles in the 2nd century NOT by Constantine the Roman Emperor in the 3rd century council Nicean. Hippolytus (205 A.D.) "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By this, He showed that whoever omits any one of them, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the TRINITY that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, and the Spirit manifested. Tertullian (212 A.D.) For the very church itself is properly and principally the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Cyprian (250 A.D.) Observing the third, sixth, and nineth month for a sacrament of the TRINITY, which was to be manifested in the last times. For the first hour in its progress to the third declared the completed number of the TRINITY. The TRINITY of the names of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. [/color] 2) Someone wrote: The Emperor Constantine was the one who tried to force it on everyone. You can mention names of those who used the word trinity, and I can mention names of those who didn't. Bottom line is, it's not in the Bible.~~ Nathanb: The Bible is an incomplete book. Only the certain ones were chosen to be put in the Bible by the Roman Catholic leaderships in the 3rd and 4th century. They left OUT many books, it should have been included such as the book of Enoch. If they had included the 2nd century apostles using the word TRINITY in the book of Acts of the apostles. Would you STILL DENY the word TRINITY is NOT in the Bible?The Triune God in the ScripturesDo the Scriptures Contain Evidence of the Triune God? Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Most certainly. The Triune God, ie., the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - is the only true God of the Bible. Numerous references to Father, Son and Spirit can be found in both the Old and New Testaments. The Triune God in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Tanakh) The Triune God Creates the UniverseGen 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The Father is portrayed as the creative source of all things. Gen 1:2: ".. and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Here, in the second verse of Genesis, the Spirit of God appears as active in the creation process. Gen 1:3: Then God said, "Let there be light; and there was light." The Son, the eternal Word of God, speaks the first of Gods works into existence. John 1:1-3,10,14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word WAS with God, and the Word WAS God. All things were made by Him, and without Him there was NOT any thing made that was made. He/Jesus was in the world and the world knew Him not. And the Word/God was made Flesh/Jesus and dwell among us, full of grace and truth.[/quote] Nathan, every single reference you have quoted has been taken WAY OUT OF CONTEXT, and have been suitably explained previously. You are only interested in "proving" the doctrine of the Trinity, rather than learning the truth about it. Please read the last article I posted.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 13:04:19 GMT -5
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Matthew 7: 21 " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter unto the a kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Nathan, I reckon you have over 90% of Christendom behind you with your belief in the Trinity. The human odds are overwhelmingly in your favour, but Jesus diD say that straight is the way and narrow is the gate and that FEW there would be who would find it.
Now, in considering the two statements of Jesus above it is obvious that eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true God, i.e. the Father, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. We also know that there would be "few" who would come to "know" the one true God, because few would find the way to do so.
Now the "Many" that Christ spoke of, can only be members of Christendom, as they are all pleading about what they have done in the name of Jesus. However, Jesus will tell them that he never knew them. This is because they have not come to a knowledge of the one true God whom Jesus identified as the Father, as well as a knowledge of himself.
According to Jesus...Few will be saved .....and only they will know who the only true God is.
According to Jesus......Many (Christians) will be called workers of iniquity and will be rejected because Jesus has never known them because they have worshipped a false god!
Now just use your logic and common sense.
The greater majority (overwhelming I would suggest) worship or believe in the Trinity. Only a "few" come to know the Father as the only true God.
THINK!
The Trinity Doctrine is of the Devil!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 13:29:17 GMT -5
Nathan, I reckon you have over 90% of Christendom behind you with your belief in the Trinity. The human odds are overwhelmingly in your favour, but Jesus diD say that straight is the way and narrow is the gate and that FEW there would be who would find it. Now, in considering the two statements of Jesus above it is obvious that eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true God, i.e. the Father, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. We also know that there would be "few" who would come to "know" the one true God, because few would find the way to do so. Now the "Many" that Christ spoke of, can only be members of Christendom, as they are all pleading about what they have done in the name of Jesus. However, Jesus will tell them that he never knew them. This is because they have not come to a knowledge of the one true God whom Jesus identified as the Father, as well as a knowledge of himself. According to Jesus...Few will be saved .....and only they will know who the only true God is. According to Jesus......Many (Christians) will be called workers of iniquity and will be rejected because Jesus has never known them because they have worshipped a false god! Now just use your logic and common sense. The greater majority (overwhelming I would suggest) worship or believe in the Trinity. Only a "few" come to know the Father as the only true God. THINK! The Trinity Doctrine is of the Devil! If I were you, Ram.... I would STOP saying the Trinity Doctrine if of the devil just because you don't BELIEVE it and fully Understand it. You might have passed over point of NO RETURN and that is BLASPHEMY! against the Holy Spirit by calling Him a devil. Be VERY Careful, Ram my friend.
Matt 12:22-25 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts....
Jesus said in Matt 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
~~~ Ram, there is NOTHING wrong with disagreeing with the Triune God... but don't SAY the Trinity is the doctrine of the DEVIL! you are treading on VERY dangerous ground.
Make no mistake Nathan, I FEAR GOD not man! I have shown you several times that the Trinity has Pagan origins and have no hesitation in stating that the Trinity Doctrine is of the Devil! Now, how about you producing "specific" references from the Bible, clearly showing that the Trinity Doctrine is of the Holy Spirit. Remember, it will be simple, it will be clear and it will be explicit! I don't want YOUR interpretation or anyone else's! I want the Word's word for it. Okay!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 13:37:06 GMT -5
Make no mistake Nathan, I FEAR GOD not man! I have shown you several times that the Trinity has Pagan origins and have no hesitation in stating that the Trinity Doctrine is of the Devil! Now, how about you producing "specific" references from the Bible, clearly showing that the Trinity Doctrine is of the Holy Spirit. Remember, it will be simple, it will be clear and is will be explicit! I don't want YOUR interpretation or anyone else's! I want the Word's word for it. Okay! I warned you! NOT to say the Doctrine of the Trinity is of the devil. The blood is on your own head.Nathan...You give me warnings. I give you TRUTH! Abide in the words of Jesus if you wish to get to know the one true God and to be counted in with the few. You have received several warnings about being enticed away from the simplicity that is in Christ by enticing doctrines of men!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 24, 2014 13:45:01 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 13:49:05 GMT -5
Nathan, I can clearly see that you will not be convinced against your will. So be it. If this discourse has not been to your benefit, then I am thankful that some others have made known to myself their gratitude for engaging you. Thank you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 14:03:37 GMT -5
Nathan, I can clearly see that you will not be convinced against your will. So be it. No, because I see the flaw of your side of the story.... You see only one side Jesus the Son of God. I see both sides of Jesus the Son of God and God/the Son.If this discourse has not been to your benefit, then I am thankful that some others have made known to myself their gratitude for engaging you. It has been very beneficial every time you, others bring this subject up I learn new things about our Lord God and Savior all the time. Thank you for sharing your side, thoughts, understanding, and belief. It's good to share and discuss these wonderful things about our God and Savior with one another without attacking each other, names calling. Thanks, Ram. Thank you! No, thank you for being patience with me.Thanks Nathan. You're right, I'm only interested in seeing one side of Jesus, the express image of God!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 14:48:03 GMT -5
~~ The word Trinity was first used by the apostles in the 2nd century NOT by Constantine the Roman Emperor in the 3rd century council Nicean.Hippolytus (205 A.D.) "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By this, He showed that whoever omits any one of them, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the TRINITY that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, and the Spirit manifested. Tertullian (212 A.D.) For the very church itself is properly and principally the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Cyprian (250 A.D.) Observing the third, sixth, and nineth month for a sacrament of the TRINITY, which was to be manifested in the last times. For the first hour in its progress to the third declared the completed number of the TRINITY. The TRINITY of the names of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. [/color] 2) Someone wrote: The Emperor Constantine was the one who tried to force it on everyone. You can mention names of those who used the word trinity, and I can mention names of those who didn't. Bottom line is, it's not in the Bible.~~ Nathanb: The Bible is an incomplete book. Only the certain ones were chosen to be put in the Bible by the Roman Catholic leaderships in the 3rd and 4th century. They left OUT many books, it should have been included such as the book of Enoch. If they had included the 2nd century apostles using the word TRINITY in the book of Acts of the apostles. Would you STILL DENY the word TRINITY is NOT in the Bible? [/quote] You are clearly in the grip of enticing doctrines of men. The Trinity is most certainly NOT in the Bible Nathan. The Bible never asserts that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons. The Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the Father's divine power.
Now consider this. This event took place AFTER Jesus has ascended to Heaven and personally sent the Comforter to his followers. It is the incident where the Holy Spirit led Philip to the Ethiopian Eunuch. Pay attention to the circumstances for baptism!
Acts 8. 36 "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptised?
37. And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38. And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptised him.
39. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more, and he went on his way rejoicing."
In accordance with clear scriptural example and Christ's simple teachings, I will, like the Ethiopian Eunuch, continue to try to believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Notice too how the Holy Spirit is referred to as "the Spirit of the Lord," now that he has personal control over it!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 14:59:43 GMT -5
Like I wrote MANY times Ram, I agree 100% with your understanding Jesus the son of God. I don't deny that at all. Somehow you have a HARD time to accept Jesus is God and LORD, who created the Universe, the heavens, the earth and all things on/in the earth and in the heavens. Nathan, the matter is very simple. All things are of God, through Jesus the Son of God, by the Father's (God's) divine power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. God the Father does everything through the Son. He empowers the Son to express HIS will! God made all things, through Jesus, by empowering him with his divine Spirit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 15:32:33 GMT -5
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
read the whole chapter its short
this(amoung other scripture) leads me to believe Jesus is the same as God
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 15:46:51 GMT -5
Nathan, the matter is very simple. All things are of God, through Jesus the Son of God, by the Father's (God's) divine power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. God the Father does everything through the Son. He empowers the Son to express HIS will! God made all things, through Jesus, by empowering him with his divine Spirit. No, No, No,.... Jesus/God made all things HIMSELF! According to God the Father. read Hebrews 1:8-12 carefully!
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Nathan, if you are going to quote from Hebrews, please do it in CONTEXT with the whole book. Also READ THE FIRST FEW VERSES PRECEDING WHAT YOU HAVE QUOTED!! HEBREWS CHAPTER 1. The introduction is the foundation against how you should contextually interpret future verses. Now pin your ears back! 1. God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
3. Who being the brightness of the glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Here you can see the context of Jesus laying the foundations of the World and universe etc. God the Father, clearly made the worlds (indeed everything) "THROUGH" Jesus whom he empowered to do so by his divine Spirit. He also appointed Jesus (his Son) to be heir of all things!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 15:49:34 GMT -5
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; read the whole chapter its short this(amoung other scripture) leads me to believe Jesus is the same as God Like a Son brought up by his Father. Other verses clearly state he was "brought forth."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 15:54:29 GMT -5
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; read the whole chapter its short this(amoung other scripture) leads me to believe Jesus is the same as God Like a Son brought up by his Father. Other verses clearly state he was "brought forth." actually the verse says "with him" not "by him"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 16:04:50 GMT -5
Like a Son brought up by his Father. Other verses clearly state he was "brought forth." actually the verse says "with him" not "by him" And the material difference (if any) is? Are you suggesting the Father was also "brought up?" One had to "bring up" the other! Actually, one brought forth the other! The verses clearly show that just as in the NT, one was in subjection to the other!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 16:12:32 GMT -5
Nathan, if you are going to quote from Hebrews, please do it in CONTEXT with the whole book. Also READ THE FIRST FEW VERSES PRECEDING WHAT YOU HAVE QUOTED!! HEBREWS CHAPTER 1. The introduction is the foundation against how you should contextually interpret future verses. Now pin your ears back! 1. God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
3. Who being the brightness of the glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Here you can see the context of Jesus laying the foundations of the World and universe etc. God the Father, clearly made the worlds (indeed everything) "THROUGH" Jesus whom he empowered to do so by his divine Spirit. He also appointed Jesus (his Son) to be heir of all things!
It was written Jesus appointed heir of all things by whom also he (Jesus) made the worlds. John the apostle wrote the same thing in John 1:1-3,10
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. The Word was Made flesh and dwell among us.
~~ the world was made by him... Him WAS Jesus. Jesus was made flesh, he was in the world and the World was made by him and the world KNEW him NOT. The Father was NEVER made flesh and live in a human body for 33 1/2 yrs.
Nathan, do you understand what an heir is? If Jesus had always been, how could he have been heir to anything. According to Trinitarian belief, he must have been co-owner not heir. In fact he is joint-heir along with us. If you want the correct understanding for John 1:1 you should read all of John's works to see how he viewed God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It was he who recorded Jesus praying to the Father and addressing him and him only as the one true God. You keep jumping about from reference to reference according to your want, without considering the overall, revealing picture. Let me make one thing clear, there is not one single reference in the New Testament that has been used to try and show that Jesus is God which has not been been taken out of context to what the Gospel and Epistle writers believe, which can clearly be shown by overall studies of their writings. All of the Gospel writers and epistle writers believed that God is the Father only, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God only.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Oct 24, 2014 16:48:01 GMT -5
Father speaks. Jesus doer Holy spirit power One in work. Different personalities
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 16:48:13 GMT -5
Nathan, yet again (frustrated but expected sigh!) you omit context. Also the first half sentence of Revelation itself. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him...."
Here we see that it is actually the Revelation which God the Father gave unto Jesus Christ' Remember, at this time Jesus has received all power in heaven and earth, reigning as Mighty God, yet he still receives instructions from God. This God is the Father, whom Jesus speaks on behalf of throughout Revelations. Now here are some further verses from Revelations which clearly show that Jesus in his glorified and Majestic position is NOT the Almighty God. He is acting on behalf of him. The following verses show that the Father is the God of Jesus. Jesus is still the Son of God.
Revelation 3:2 ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of my God.’ (NAS) This phrase, “my God,” is seen again and again in the Book of Revelation. How could Jesus be “God” in any sense when, from his position in heaven, he refers to the Father as, “my God?” · Revelation 3:12 ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name. (NAS) Any Christian who claims Jesus is “God” is at a total loss to explain Revelation 3:12. Not only does Jesus refer to his God, but mentions God in light of some profound truths: · “… in the temple of my God.” · “… the name of my God.” · “… the city of my God, the new Jerusalem.” · “… which comes down out of heaven from my God.” The temple of my God? The name of my God? The city of my God? Out of heaven, from my God? Can there be any room left for doubt? Jesus has a God, and his God is the only true God. It is the same God that Jesus knew since his birth, and is it the same God that he had previously called “my God?”
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 17:16:35 GMT -5
Oh, Ram... my Ram... The Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. God the Father testifies that Jesus is his only begotten Son. Jesus Christ testifies that he is the Son of God. Jesus Christ testifies that the Father is the only true God. Paul, John Peter et all, all testify that God is the Father and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. None of them testify that the Holy Spirit is a person, but rather a power. NUMBERS 23:19 testifies what God isn't! Read it carefully. See if you can identify something which Jesus also testified himself to be? "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
So, from the foregoing we can see that God is NOT a man! Neither is he the son of man! Jesus was a man and declared himself to be a very specific Son of Man!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 17:39:05 GMT -5
actually the verse says "with him" not "by him" And the material difference (if any) is? Are you suggesting the Father was also "brought up?" One had to "bring up" the other! Actually, one brought forth the other! The verses clearly show that just as in the NT, one was in subjection to the other! "brought up with him" clearly denotes an "equal" relationship
|
|