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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 20:51:21 GMT -5
It probably is for me too now that I think about it. My research started 15 years ago, about the same time I found my birth family and they turned out to be just as fanatically religious and my adopted family. I couldn't get over how ironic that was!! So I started studying trying to figure out why people believed what they did. I knew why I had, and why I didn't anymore, but I wanted to know the history of Christianity. My studies made me interested in the history of all the major religions and it was fascinating once you started to put the pieces together. Each religion thinks their's is the right one, but they no so little about each other's beliefs and history. They really don't understand just how much many of the religions have in common, but they negate the truth of the others. If it wasn't so sad and sometimes dangerous, it would be amusing. We actually know as much about the history of religions including our own, as atheists do or do not. You make a lot of wild unsubstantiated statements based on nothing. Speaking of wild unsubstantiated statements, you are really amazing. What history did you take in school? What do you know about what anyone else knows about history -- their own or anyone else's?
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 20:51:30 GMT -5
Really? then you are unique. Many don't even know the history of their own religion let alone others. You are generalising again, Snow. Many meaning - Who ? - those in your small world because those in my world know a lot. Seems as if you do not mix with many to know what they know. My world isn't so small Mary. I have had lots of access and opportunity to talk to many people at book signings, talks etc. Not many know about other religions and many have no desire to. Some are even told they shouldn't even investigate other religions. So again, I would say your situation is not common.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 20:54:53 GMT -5
You're very big on stereotypes. No stereotypes here Bob. You have to think of a better word if you disagree. Do you know what stereotype means?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 20:56:40 GMT -5
O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy power throughout the universe displayed. O mighty God, when I survey in wonder The world that formed when once the word you said, The strands of life all woven close together, The whole creation at your table fed,When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze:When your voice speaks in rolls of thunder pealing, Your lightning power bursts in bright surprise; When cooling rain, your gentle love revealing,Reflects your promise, arcing through the skies. My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! How about although there are: The strands of life all woven close together, The whole creation at your table fed,
there it is also the fact life is not just ' woven close together' but also often by necessity, life must often devour one another by bloody 'tooth & claw' in order to be fed?
How about although there is also : And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze:
there are also the floods , the hurricanes & tornadoes that destroy people, their homes, their families?
If one is going to praise a god for all the 'nice' things, at least be realistic and recognize ALL the things that god does as well.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 20:59:18 GMT -5
We actually know as much about the history of religions including our own, as atheists do or do not. You make a lot of wild unsubstantiated statements based on nothing. Speaking of wild unsubstantiated statements, you are really amazing. What history did you take in school? What do you know about what anyone else knows about history -- their own or anyone else's? What do you not believe Bob? That in general Christians know as much about religions including their own as atheists? No doubt I took the same history, except for those unique to our countries heritage, as you did at school Bob.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 20:59:16 GMT -5
I had changed my post you quoted above before I saw yours. It was that you would have no understanding of what you were hearing in the womb. You would not know that it was religious or not. It doesn't matter that I didn't understand. The hymns meant something to me later and the memory of hearing them sung was already deeply buried in me from my early exposure to them. You believe this and claim this but you offer nothing to substantiate it. As I mentioned earlier, when my faith in the God of my childhood and my family imploded, the natural default was atheism.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:01:07 GMT -5
You are generalising again, Snow. Many meaning - Who ? - those in your small world because those in my world know a lot. Seems as if you do not mix with many to know what they know. My world isn't so small Mary. I have had lots of access and opportunity to talk to many people at book signings, talks etc. Not many know about other religions and many have no desire to. Some are even told they shouldn't even investigate other religions. So again, I would say your situation is not common. So based on your small world and my experience based on my small world are different. The difference is probably that I mix with Christians a lot more than you and base my experience on those in my small world of which many are also Christian.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:04:00 GMT -5
It doesn't matter that I didn't understand. The hymns meant something to me later and the memory of hearing them sung was already deeply buried in me from my early exposure to them. You believe this and claim this but you offer nothing to substantiate it. As I mentioned earlier, when my faith in the God of my childhood and my family imploded, the natural default was atheism. If you believe that you understood what it was all about in the womb then you keep believing it but we know a bit about cognitive development and what we understand at what stages in life. You claim you understood, I say you did not. Amazing in the womb you understood what they were saying and singing about.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 21:06:52 GMT -5
Speaking of wild unsubstantiated statements, you are really amazing. What history did you take in school? What do you know about what anyone else knows about history -- their own or anyone else's? What do you not believe Bob? That in general Christians know as much about religions including their own as atheists? No doubt I took the same history, except for those unique to our countries heritage, as you did at school Bob. It doesn't matter what I believe. I want to know where you get your blanket statements from. They sounds like they're from someone who learned all their history from anyone who wants to talk about it.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:06:57 GMT -5
The religion we choose is learned but a belief in the supernatural which many call God is not learned. It is there in primitive races. That is just my belief - I did not say it was a correct belief but dmg saying that religion is a human construct I oppose that view as there are many things that are innate and belief in the supernatural could well be one.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 21:08:59 GMT -5
My world isn't so small Mary. I have had lots of access and opportunity to talk to many people at book signings, talks etc. Not many know about other religions and many have no desire to. Some are even told they shouldn't even investigate other religions. So again, I would say your situation is not common. So based on your small world and my experience based on my small world are different. The difference is probably that I mix with Christians a lot more than you and base my experience on those in my small world of which many are also Christian. I'm getting a picture of the kind of Christians you mix with.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:09:44 GMT -5
what kind are they?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 21:11:58 GMT -5
They're most certainly not Catholic, are they.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:13:53 GMT -5
So one out of the way......Christians are a wide variety, not just Catholic you know. So protestant is a good start.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 21:13:57 GMT -5
If you believe that you understood what it was all about in the womb then you keep believing it but we know a bit about cognitive development and what we understand at what stages in life. You claim you understood, I say you did not. Amazing in the womb you understood what they were saying and singing about. If you take a minute to re-read my last post carefully, I trust that you will see that you just made up a bunch of stuff about me that is not true.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:17:47 GMT -5
Yep, this is what you wrote:
No, I was conditioned by my parents, beginning before I was born.
I was robbed of any chance to claim an innate belief in the supernatural since I attended meetings and presumably listened to some muffled version of hymns and prayers and testimonies while still in utero. I was steeped in it even before I drew my first breath! Atheism was what was left with when years later I could no longer suspend disbelief (maintain "the construct") and my concept of god naturally imploded
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 21:27:17 GMT -5
Yep, this is what you wrote: No, I was conditioned by my parents, beginning before I was born. I was robbed of any chance to claim an innate belief in the supernatural since I attended meetings and presumably listened to some muffled version of hymns and prayers and testimonies while still in utero. I was steeped in it even before I drew my first breath! Atheism was what was left with when years later I could no longer suspend disbelief (maintain "the construct") and my concept of god naturally imploded Where in this did I say anything about understanding words while I was still in utero??? I experienced music and voice very very early in my life in a way that was echoed over and over again throughout my childhood. An understanding of words and concepts involved came later, but that regularly repeated experience of the music and voices probably started becoming familiar to me before I was born.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 21:31:07 GMT -5
My world isn't so small Mary. I have had lots of access and opportunity to talk to many people at book signings, talks etc. Not many know about other religions and many have no desire to. Some are even told they shouldn't even investigate other religions. So again, I would say your situation is not common. So based on your small world and my experience based on my small world are different. The difference is probably that I mix with Christians a lot more than you and base my experience on those in my small world of which many are also Christian. LOL, in a Western country I probably mix with just as many Christians as you do. After all, I only know a few people that are atheists so tell me how I would be hanging with more atheists than Christians? My family are Christians, every last one of them, and quite devout ones too. People talk to me about things like history of religion because they know I've written on it. It's a natural subject in my world. Many do not know their own history never mind the history of others. I would just have to take your word for it that you know lots about your history and so do all the other Christians you know and not only that they know lots about the history of many other religions too.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 21:36:56 GMT -5
VMAT2 is name of gene, some studies point to as responsible for innate spirituality we are hardwired with. Alvin correction,- geneticist Dean Hamer postulates this idea
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:40:41 GMT -5
So based on your small world and my experience based on my small world are different. The difference is probably that I mix with Christians a lot more than you and base my experience on those in my small world of which many are also Christian. LOL, in a Western country I probably mix with just as many Christians as you do. After all, I only know a few people that are atheists so tell me how I would be hanging with more atheists than Christians? My family are Christians, every last one of them, and quite devout ones too. People talk to me about things like history of religion because they know I've written on it. It's a natural subject in my world. Many do not know their own history never mind the history of others. I would just have to take your word for it that you know lots about your history and so do all the other Christians you know and not only that they know lots about the history of many other religions too. Where did I say that you would be hanging out with more atheists than Christians? I mix with whole churches of Christians, not just family members who I visit occasionally and don't talk religion with. I hear sermons preached every week, by many different speakers. Do many in the family you talk about professing as I agree many professing people do not know the history of Christianity, let alone their own church. I have done extensive (if you can call it that) personal study on Islam.
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Post by rational on Aug 17, 2014 21:42:54 GMT -5
Do you think you have enough intelligence to judge the intelligence of so great a designer? Yes I do. When 99% of your designs fail I think there is a question about the quality of the design. Of course you do. Since you define your designer it should be a cakewalk for you to define a designer that knows more than I do. Of course, testing your belief is a bit of a trick!
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:44:51 GMT -5
Yep, this is what you wrote: No, I was conditioned by my parents, beginning before I was born. I was robbed of any chance to claim an innate belief in the supernatural since I attended meetings and presumably listened to some muffled version of hymns and prayers and testimonies while still in utero. I was steeped in it even before I drew my first breath! Atheism was what was left with when years later I could no longer suspend disbelief (maintain "the construct") and my concept of god naturally imploded Where in this did I say anything about understanding words while I was still in utero??? I experienced music and voice very very early in my life in a way that was echoed over and over again throughout my childhood. An understanding of words and concepts involved came later, but that regularly repeated experience of the music and voices probably started becoming familiar to me before I was born. Here it is: I was robbed of any chance to claim an innate belief in the supernatural since I attended meetings and presumably listened to some muffled version of hymns and prayers and testimonies while still in utero. I was steeped in it even before I drew my first breath!
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 21:45:09 GMT -5
Is religion a human construct as dmg said before and does it take more effort to believe than not believe? Is it easier to believe in the supernatural or be an atheist? Which is born into us? I believe that a belief in the supernatural (call it God if you like) is innate and to believe there is no God or supernatural power or force behind life and nature takes a change in belief - not the other way round. Atheism takes effort and a change in belief, not the other way round. Are we born knowing certain things or are we born 'a clean slate'? Babies cry - it is a natural reflex, which is then reinforced by a positive or negative response to increase or decrease the behaviour.
Babies and children jump and cry if frightened. That is an inborn response not a human construct.
Emotions such as happy, sad, angry etc are born in us - they are not human constructs. These can however, be increased or decreased according to life experiences. So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences. With God there are no gaps as He is the foundation of everything, atheism on the other hand is full of gaps. We are born with a spirit and belief in God. Our spirit is alive and we can try and 'kill it off' with our belief or claim a lack of one, but the fact remains it is still there. To have hope is better than no hope. Christ does not just offer hope he offers a life in this life and the next. We are assured of salvation. Muslims on the other hand only have hope. They believe they will not know until they die if they go to paradise or not. Christians on the other hand have assurance of salvation. Jesus offers salvation, not just hope. Babies cry & Babies and children jump and cry if frightened are, as you said, natural reflex, a physical reflex. They aren't a human mental construction as in a religious belief.
If a belief in the supernatural is innate, why wouldn't everyone believe in the same supernatural being? Why so many different ones, all according to what belief system or culture or country, that they are are born into? If those different belief systems aren't constructions of peoples minds, why do they vary so much?
Perhaps the real question is why do people construct them to start with?
When humans begin to be able remember our past experiences, and wonder why a certain thing happened, we didn't know what caused a certain thing to happen but we really tried to understand it.
example:
We experienced hearing roar of a volcano, & seeing the spewing forth of fire & lava that destroyed everything in it's path. Not knowing the cause we speculated that it was a 'supernatural being' in the volcano. We named it a 'god' (Since we hadn't been born with that experience in place, it wasn't innate, it wasn't already there when were born) Why did that 'god' kill all in it's path? It was angry. What or who was it angry at? Us. Why? Because we had done something or not done something according to it's will.
Thus a god & a religion is born.
But we had not been born with that innate experience already there of a god or religion. Our interpretation of that experience was a human mental construction.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 21:45:29 GMT -5
VMAT2 is name of gene, some studies point to as responsible for innate spirituality we are hardwired with. Alvin correction,- geneticist Dean Hamer postulates this idea According to the Wikipedia article .."....the God Gene theory is based on only one unpublished, unreplicated study." What is the basis for announcing that we are "hardwired for innate spirituality?" I don't buy it.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 21:49:53 GMT -5
LOL, in a Western country I probably mix with just as many Christians as you do. After all, I only know a few people that are atheists so tell me how I would be hanging with more atheists than Christians? My family are Christians, every last one of them, and quite devout ones too. People talk to me about things like history of religion because they know I've written on it. It's a natural subject in my world. Many do not know their own history never mind the history of others. I would just have to take your word for it that you know lots about your history and so do all the other Christians you know and not only that they know lots about the history of many other religions too. Where did I say that you would be hanging out with more atheists than Christians? I mix with whole churches of Christians, not just family members who I visit occasionally and don't talk religion with. I hear sermons preached every week, but many different speakers. Do many in the family you talk about professing as I agree many professing people do not know the history of Christianity, let alone their own church. I have done extensive (if you can call it that) personal study on Islam. My family that were professing are all dead. My birth family are all Baptists and yes they talk religion with me every chance they get in order to convert me. Well you did say that you probably hung with more Christians than I did, but that's kind of hard in my country. Most everyone is Christian. You're right though, I don't hang out at churches much. I do go to the odd baptism with my Catholic relatives and graduations and funerals are like mini church services in my family. One side is Catholic and the other Baptist. So I get both views. Catholics don't force their views on me as much as Baptists though, I must say. They are quite determined I'm going to become a Christian.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:54:29 GMT -5
Dmg, the natural/innate gets built upon by our experiences. As I said the type of religion we choose is based on environment. We can be frightened by a dog jumping at us (that is innate) but if the dog licks us we form a different picture of dogs jumping at us. It then starts forming a thought then a response. If a dog jumps at me it will bite me or if a dog jumps at me it wants to lick me is formed by our experience. Fear gets replaced by something else. It is natural to eat food but if something makes us sick then we are more likely to avoid that food. The natural/innate need/response becomes conditioned by our experiences.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 21:56:23 GMT -5
VMAT2 is name of gene, some studies point to as responsible for innate spirituality we are hardwired with. Alvin correction,- geneticist Dean Hamer postulates this idea. According to the Wikipedia article .."....the God Gene theory is based on only one unpublished, unreplicated study." What is the basis for announcing that we are "hardwired for innate spirituality?" I don't buy it. Lots of "studies" been done with various conclusions, so I guess we all get to choose which ones we "buy" or not. I simply do not know. Alvin
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 21:57:19 GMT -5
It probably is for me too now that I think about it. My research started 15 years ago, about the same time I found my birth family and they turned out to be just as fanatically religious and my adopted family. I couldn't get over how ironic that was!! So I started studying trying to figure out why people believed what they did. I knew why I had, and why I didn't anymore, but I wanted to know the history of Christianity. My studies made me interested in the history of all the major religions and it was fascinating once you started to put the pieces together. Each religion thinks their's is the right one, but they no so little about each other's beliefs and history. They really don't understand just how much many of the religions have in common, but they negate the truth of the others. If it wasn't so sad and sometimes dangerous, it would be amusing. We actually know as much about the history of religions including our own, as atheists do or do not. Y ou make a lot of wild unsubstantiated statements based on nothing. Mary! -such a statement for you to make about Snow!
Maybe you can substantiate what YOU know about the history of religions, -including as you say, your own!
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