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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 21:58:21 GMT -5
VMAT2 is name of gene, some studies point to as responsible for innate spirituality we are hardwired with. Alvin correction,- geneticist Dean Hamer postulates this idea According to the Wikipedia article .."....the God Gene theory is based on only one unpublished, unreplicated study." What is the basis for announcing that we are "hardwired for innate spirituality?" I don't buy it. The thought sprung from dmgs comment that religion is a human construct and it is easier to not believe than to believe - or words to that effect. I was proposing that belief in the supernatural is innate i.e. not a human construct but inborn and that it was more natural to believe in God or a supernatural being than not to. I base it on primitive races belief in the supernatural.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 22:00:30 GMT -5
Where in this did I say anything about understanding words while I was still in utero??? I experienced music and voice very very early in my life in a way that was echoed over and over again throughout my childhood. An understanding of words and concepts involved came later, but that regularly repeated experience of the music and voices probably started becoming familiar to me before I was born. Here it is: I was robbed of any chance to claim an innate belief in the supernatural since I attended meetings and presumably listened to some muffled version of hymns and prayers and testimonies while still in utero. I was steeped in it even before I drew my first breath! Yes....."muffled versions of hymns and prayers and testimonies." There is a rhythm and cadence to what happens in meeting that does not require understanding of words. I believe my early exposure to these served as the beginning of what would later (and after many additional exposures and experiences) feel to me like a well-grounded, totally natural impulse to believe in God. I cannot say that believing in God would have been a natural consequence had I been born into a different circumstance.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 22:03:43 GMT -5
Dmg, you have the whole internet and books at your disposal for you to read it all. I am certainly not going to write it all on here and all the discussions we have in groups at church to name just a few. We had a film at church last night on the history of Christianity in this country. I was pleased to see it showed the good and the bad of the missionaries who imposed their religion on the natives who were here. The world (Christian and non Christian) is not just about how good Christianity is - it is far more fair based these days. We can thank the internet for that. Look how far the 2x2s have come - some of them at least. People are no longer willing to be spoon feed but life today teaches us to question. I was stressing that Christians are just as well educated in these matters as non Christians. There are scientists, doctors and all manner of educated people who are Christians.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 22:15:31 GMT -5
WARNING! Health and Safety Advisory!
Do NOT jump on the bandwagon!
Wait until it comes to a complete halt, then carefully board the stopped bandwagon.
NOTE! Not following this advise can cause serious personal injury!
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 22:24:46 GMT -5
The religion we choose is learned but a belief in the supernatural which many call God is not learned. It is there in primitive races. That is just my belief - I did not say it was a correct belief but dmg saying that religion is a human construct I oppose that view as there are many things that are innate and belief in the supernatural could well be one. Indeed a belief in the supernatural WAS there in primitive races! But it wasn't innate at the time each person was born!
I suppose you do know that is what 'innate' means don't you?Oxford dictionary:
innate
adjective 1. Inborn; natural:
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 22:27:02 GMT -5
Cambridge University study of 2005 said approximately 88 % of world population believe in god That's down from 96% in 2000. Fwiw Alvin
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 22:28:48 GMT -5
Cambridge University study of 2005 said approximately 88 % of world population believe in god That's down from 96% in 2000. Fwiw Alvin Wow. That seems like a pretty substantial drop.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 22:29:56 GMT -5
I thot so too. Alvin
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 22:30:20 GMT -5
Dmg, you have the whole internet and books at your disposal for you to read it all. I am certainly not going to write it all on here and all the discussions we have in groups at church to name just a few. We had a film at church last night on the history of Christianity in this country. I was pleased to see it showed the good and the bad of the missionaries who imposed their religion on the natives who were here. The world (Christian and non Christian) is not just about how good Christianity is - it is far more fair based these days. We can thank the internet for that. Look how far the 2x2s have come - some of them at least. People are no longer willing to be spoon feed but life today teaches us to question. I was stressing that Christians are just as well educated in these matters as non Christians. There are scientists, doctors and all manner of educated people who are Christians. Why, I wonder, am I not surprised at that cop-out!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 22:30:33 GMT -5
So one out of the way......Christians are a wide variety, not just Catholic you know. So protestant is a good start. Yes, that knocks the majority off the list. I suspect you spend a lot of time with Christians who do not usually use a denominational name.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 22:39:05 GMT -5
According to the Wikipedia article .."....the God Gene theory is based on only one unpublished, unreplicated study." What is the basis for announcing that we are "hardwired for innate spirituality?" I don't buy it. The thought sprung from dmgs comment that religion is a human construct and it is easier to not believe than to believe - or words to that effect. I was proposing that belief in the supernatural is innate i.e. not a human construct but inborn and that it was more natural to believe in God or a supernatural being than not to. I base it on primitive races belief in the supernatural. What is a primitive race? Races are/were all primitive. Religions are still all primitive.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 22:39:52 GMT -5
The religion we choose is learned but a belief in the supernatural which many call God is not learned. It is there in primitive races. That is just my belief - I did not say it was a correct belief but dmg saying that religion is a human construct I oppose that view as there are many things that are innate and belief in the supernatural could well be one. Indeed a belief in the supernatural WAS there in primitive races! But it wasn't innate at the time each person was born!
I suppose you do know that is what 'innate' means don't you?Oxford dictionary:
innate
adjective 1. Inborn; natural:
Of course I know what innate means, I would not have used it if I didn't. It was one of the first things I learned at university. Innate versus clean state. Are we born knowing certain things or are born knowing nothing. They used examples of fear and response for innate which I used above.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 22:44:11 GMT -5
Dmg, you have the whole internet and books at your disposal for you to read it all. I am certainly not going to write it all on here and all the discussions we have in groups at church to name just a few. We had a film at church last night on the history of Christianity in this country. I was pleased to see it showed The world (Christian and non Christian) is not just about how good Christianity is - it is far more fair based these days. We can thank the internet for that. Look how far the 2x2s have come - some of them at least. People are no longer willing to be spoon feed but life today teaches us to question. I was stressing that Christians are just as well educated in these matters as non Christians. There are scientists, doctors and all manner of educated people who are Christians. Ah, indeed, -the 'history of Christianity in this country' rather limited, isn't it?
Since as you say we can thank the internet for so much about religion and I have the whole internet and books at my disposal for me to read, it seems it would be simple for you to supply me with a sample or two without putting too much of a burden on you.
As for the history you mentioned that you learned in school, -what level of school did you learn any religious history?
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 22:44:25 GMT -5
Cambridge University study of 2005 said approximately 88 % of world population believe in god That's down from 96% in 2000. Fwiw Alvin Wow. That seems like a pretty substantial drop. It's only just over 1% a year.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 22:52:21 GMT -5
Like so many studies, if one has an agenda or theory to "prove", we tend to use the ones supporting our side of the argument. Suppose one could use stats like this for lots of "arguments", either way. E.g.- proves that humans are evolving.... ....and so on and on and onit goes. these debates have been going for a few thousand years anyhow, do don't expect them to be settled to nite anyhow have a great nite alvin
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 22:55:03 GMT -5
Dmg, you have the whole internet and books at your disposal for you to read it all. I am certainly not going to write it all on here and all the discussions we have in groups at church to name just a few. We had a film at church last night on the history of Christianity in this country. I was pleased to see it showed The world (Christian and non Christian) is not just about how good Christianity is - it is far more fair based these days. We can thank the internet for that. Look how far the 2x2s have come - some of them at least. People are no longer willing to be spoon feed but life today teaches us to question. I was stressing that Christians are just as well educated in these matters as non Christians. There are scientists, doctors and all manner of educated people who are Christians. Ah, indeed, -the 'history of Christianity in this country' rather limited, isn't it?
Since as you say we can thank the internet for so much about religion and I have the whole internet and books at my disposal for me to read, it seems it would be simple for you to supply me with a sample or two without putting too much of a burden on you.
As for the history you mentioned that you learned in school, -what level of school did you learn any religious history? Of course the film was limited - it was about what the title said it was. I did not say I studied religious history at university. I have a masters degree but did not say it was in religious studies. I do have a close friend however who is a professor in religious studies at uni. if that helps. He's even got books on the 2x2s in his library of 1500 books at home. There are thousands of websites you can look up yourself. Lots of good ones. I do not record the sites - do you record every site you look at? I read a vast amount and have just finished reading 3 books. The last one was 'The Good Girl' (about a mother a daughter who left Iran and went and lived in the USA) which I returned to the library yesterday and I have 'The Witness Wore Red' (about a woman who left a cult) on order at the library. The other was 'Among Ourselves' (on Dissociative Identity Disorder). I believe learning is life long.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 22:58:33 GMT -5
Indeed a belief in the supernatural WAS there in primitive races! But it wasn't innate at the time each person was born!
I suppose you do know that is what 'innate' means don't you?Oxford dictionary:
innate
adjective 1. Inborn; natural:
Of course I know what innate means, I would not have used it if I didn't. It was one of the first things I learned at university. Innate versus clean state. Are we born knowing certain things or are born knowing nothing. They used examples of fear and response for innate which I used above. How did they describe those innate reflexes?
You used the right word the first time by describing them as "reflexes." They are physical, instinctive reflexes, NOT a mentally constructed belief system, -not a mentally constructed belief in the supernatural or paranormal.
Children aren't born to believe that the 'tooth fairy' will give them money for the teeth that they lose nor believe that Santa Klaus will leave them presents at 'Christmas' if they are good little children but a pile of coal or bundle of sticks if they aren't good!
BTW, that last one was good prep for becoming a Christian later in life!
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 22:58:49 GMT -5
So one out of the way......Christians are a wide variety, not just Catholic you know. So protestant is a good start. Yes, that knocks the majority off the list. I suspect you spend a lot of time with Christians who do not usually use a denominational name. Keep guessing. We use a denominational name. So now that knocks off Catholics and the 2x2s. Another several thousands denominations left.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 23:05:32 GMT -5
WARNING! Health and Safety Advisory!
Do NOT jump on the bandwagon!
Wait until it comes to a complete halt, then carefully board the stopped bandwagon.
NOTE! Not following this advise can cause serious personal injury!
Which bandwagon, Dennis?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 23:10:33 GMT -5
Yes, that knocks the majority off the list. I suspect you spend a lot of time with Christians who do not usually use a denominational name. Keep guessing. We use a denominational name. So now that knocks off Catholics and the 2x2s. Another several thousands denominations left. Another several thousands denominations! WOW, wonder why all of those didn't have the same innate belief at birth?
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 23:14:11 GMT -5
As I said the religion (and church) we chose is learned.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 23:18:18 GMT -5
Yes, that knocks the majority off the list. I suspect you spend a lot of time with Christians who do not usually use a denominational name. Keep guessing. We use a denominational name. So now that knocks off Catholics and the 2x2s. Another several thousands denominations left. Uh uhh, I didn't ask if you "use" a denominational name. I asked if you "usually" use a denominational name -- when you talk to each other, that is.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 23:20:32 GMT -5
As I said the religion (and church) we chose is learned. You learn it whether you chose it or not. However, no child choses anything about his "spirituality" until he becomes exposed to something different.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 23:33:25 GMT -5
Ah, indeed, -the 'history of Christianity in this country' rather limited, isn't it?
Since as you say we can thank the internet for so much about religion and I have the whole internet and books at my disposal for me to read, it seems it would be simple for you to supply me with a sample or two without putting too much of a burden on you.
As for the history you mentioned that you learned in school, -what level of school did you learn any religious history? Of course the film was limited - it was about what the title said it was. I did not say I studied religious history at university. I have a masters degree but did not say it was in religious studies. I do have a close friend however who is a professor in religious studies at uni. if that helps. He's even got books on the 2x2s in his library of 1500 books at home. There are thousands of websites you can look up yourself. Lots of good ones. I do not record the sites - do you record every site you look at? I read a vast amount and have just finished reading 3 books. The last one was 'The Good Girl' (about a mother a daughter who left Iran and went and lived in the USA) which I returned to the library yesterday and I have 'The Witness Wore Red' (about a woman who left a cult) on order at the library. The other was 'Among Ourselves' (on Dissociative Identity Disorder). I believe learning is life long. Good for you! So do I believe learning is life long!
May I recommend a few books?
The Zealot -The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth by Reza Aslan
The Religion Virus- Craig James
Anti-Semitism and the Christian Mind-by Richard Rubenstein
Paul by A. N. WilsonPagans & Christians by Lane Fox
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 23:42:51 GMT -5
Cambridge University study of 2005 said approximately 88 % of world population believe in god That's down from 96% in 2000. Fwiw Alvin All I have to say about this comment is that in 1962 before exiting a C130 "Herk" pulling silk at 200' over Cuba in late October 1962, to take ground pictures of Russian missles and blow up a great deal of Cuba if necessary, 100% of the 75th Ranger Regiment 82nd Airborne team, believed and bowed in prayer to God for a successful mission and safe return, and I know because I was one of them. All in, all out safely, successful mission against all odds, by our black ops S.T.R.A.C. team, at that time told by President Kennedy on T-day at Fort Stewart Georgia that although we would only be able to tell grand children about it 50 years later, we few prevented world war III.
All in, all out safely, not a single injury, jumping in the dark, some of us unarmed, {my duties were squad medic, ground navigation coordination, and com ops (running CW.)} Not one atheist among us, then. Just sayin...
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 23:53:30 GMT -5
As I said the religion (and church) we chose is learned. No, -that isn't what you originally said, Mary.
You said: "So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences. "Believing in anything or not believing in something, is impossible at birth! It simply is impossible & cannot be innate!
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Post by fixit on Aug 18, 2014 0:01:33 GMT -5
All I have to say about this comment is that in 1962 before exiting a C130 "Herk" pulling silk at 200' over Cuba in late October 1962, to take ground pictures of Russian missles and blow up a great deal of Cuba if necessary, 100% of the 75th Ranger Regiment 82nd Airborne team, believed and bowed in prayer to God for a successful mission and safe return, and I know because I was one of them. All in, all out safely, successful mission against all odds, by our black ops S.T.R.A.C. team, at that time told by President Kennedy on T-day at Fort Stewart Georgia that although we would only be able to tell grand children about it 50 years later, we few prevented world war III. All in, all out safely, not a single injury, jumping in the dark, some of us unarmed, {my duties were squad medic, ground navigation coordination, and com ops (running CW.)} Not one atheist among us, then. Just sayin... You've had some interesting experiences Dennis.
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Post by Mary on Aug 18, 2014 0:26:27 GMT -5
As I said the religion (and church) we chose is learned. No, -that isn't what you originally said, Mary.
You said: "So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences. "Believing in anything or not believing in something, is impossible at birth! It simply is impossible & cannot be innate!
Yes I said a belief in the supernatural is innate, I did not say the religion or church we choose is innate. I said the later is learned. Belief and religion are different. They are 2 completely different things. Primitive races believe in the supernatural but are not usually Christian until they hear it from someone.
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