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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2014 15:17:32 GMT -5
No, faune, I DON'T need to give "it shot and read their books!" No, faune, I have no need to put aside any prejudice regarding Christian apologists, since I have NO prejudice against Christian apologists.
I don't pre-judge apologists!
I've already read the apologists!
I don't have to re-read them to know what they say and to know the lack of evidence they have for their god! How do you think that I arrived at the point where I realized there simply wasn't any gods or goddesses?
I didn't just reach out & pluck it from nowhere.
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had read any of these authors actual books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question ~ I think? It just appeared to me that you had read more in the areas that supported atheism rather than Christianity?
Faune, I did not start out reading about atheism.
I started out reading everything that I could find on Christianity!
It was reading from about Christianity that I begin see there was NO EVIDENCE at all of any credibility in a virgin birth, a resurrection of a dead body! No evidence in the of the ability of a person overcoming gravity & ascending into the sky without any means of transportation.
Then I asked myself this question.
WHY HAD I BELIEVED THIS FOR SO MUCH OF MY LIFE?
The answer was simply that I had been conditioned to believe it.
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Post by matisse on Sept 6, 2014 15:32:20 GMT -5
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had read any of these authors actual books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question ~ I think? It just appeared to me that you had read more in the areas that supported atheism rather than Christianity?
Faune, I did not start out reading about atheism.
I started out reading everything that I could find on Christianity!
It was reading from about Christianity that I begin see there was NO EVIDENCE at all of any credibility in a virgin birth, a resurrection of a dead body! No evidence in the of the ability of a person overcoming gravity & ascending into the sky without any means of transportation.
Then I asked myself this question.
WHY HAD I BELIEVED THIS FOR SO MUCH OF MY LIFE?
The answer was simply that I had been conditioned to believe it.
My faith imploded under its own weight nearly 30 years ago. I only recently started reading what atheists have written.
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Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 15:51:13 GMT -5
Faune, I did not start out reading about atheism.
I started out reading everything that I could find on Christianity!
It was reading from about Christianity that I begin see there was NO EVIDENCE at all of any credibility in a virgin birth, a resurrection of a dead body! No evidence in the of the ability of a person overcoming gravity & ascending into the sky without any means of transportation.
Then I asked myself this question.
WHY HAD I BELIEVED THIS FOR SO MUCH OF MY LIFE?
The answer was simply that I had been conditioned to believe it.
My faith imploded under its own weight nearly 30 years ago. I only recently started reading what atheists have written. Matisse ~ Thanks for sharing that tidbit about yourself. I know of a few friends who experienced a similar reaction, including my own husband, after leaving the 2x2's. It really can do a number on your emotions until you get enough time and space to evaluate your feelings in light of reality. It also took me years to sort through the baggage I accumulated from 30 years within the 2x2's. So, I can understand the mixed emotions and disallusionment that must have surfaced afterward from my own experience. I personally have wondered if a lot of this stuff you end up needing to process has to do with that "one and only mentality" of the 2x2's, in which leaving is equated with losing God's favor, our salvation, and a one-way ticket to Hell?
I have attended various churches since then before moving on to my present church, but I never have experienced anything like what I felt after leaving the 2x2's. I tend to believe it's because of that "exclusive mindset" associated with the F&W's that contributed to all the separation anxiety after departing that group?
DMG ~ Thanks for sharing some personal information above. That's what I was looking for in my inquiry, by the way. It adds more weigh to why you believe what you do today when you can add your own personal testimony and findings to the mix. JMT
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2014 15:55:57 GMT -5
No, Nathan, after death I will just be dead.
I've ceased to be scared by that bogey man a long time ago. You may think you've ceased to be scared by death's bogey man a long time ago.. .but I feel certain you as well as every person who has been born of mankind will face that battle between soul and body in which there is NO Discharge from that war. You may not be scared, but you will find that your flesh does not wish to part with your soul and your flesh will fight with your soul for pre-eminence and victory....at least for a little while. Where do I get this? It's something you should have witnessed if you've done any nursing....HOW many times have you watched someone who's body was racked with malignant illness and it was beyond human understanding why they continued to linger? This is that battle of the flesh determinedly hanging onto the soul(which according to the bible is the breath of life)... The bible also declares such a battle will be faced.....irregardless.....I've seen it too often...in believers of rich faith and in unbelievers of no faith! The body does not want to be parted from that breath of life that was given to it on the moment of birth into the world. And yes, there are people who seem to die instantly, but we have no idea of the moments their battle was fought...had it been some time ago? Or was it something in the horrible crisis of the moment that someone failed to witness that struggle? Likely...... Yes, whether we believe in a God or whether we believe that once our breath quits and never more are we to be found alive....we all will struggle to keep alive that which we know in our own self..... Sharingtheriches, you may feel certain about what you believe, however give me the same right to a certainty of what I believe!
Of course there is often a struggle in dying but not always by any means!
This doesn't mean that the flesh determinedly hanging onto the soul! Other animals do the same. Do they have a soul?
That struggle is instinctive for survival is in all animals.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2014 16:10:06 GMT -5
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had ever read any of these books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question. Faune I have the book ‘I don’t have enough Faith to be an Atheist’ by Norman Geisler which you have referred to. However I don’t claim to have read it. The book was given to me by someone who wanted rid of it having been given it by a current 2x2 with good intentions. What those with good intentions often fail to understand is that those who have travelled the road from belief to unbelief are unlikely ever to wish to return. I think it might therefore be much more profitable if those believers who wish to debate with non-believers on threads such as this would first focus on trying to understand 'unbelief' rather than continually trying to persuade non-believers to become believers through the endless quoting of verses of ancient books in which the non-believers do not believe, or through the promotion of modern books by Christian apologists which non-believers are unlikely ever to read. I note that you recently bumped the thread ‘From Belief to Unbelief’; it is worth noting that not a single believer commented on that thread in a year and a half. It is clear to me that while many non-believers have a good grasp of belief (having been there), the believers seem to have a real problem understanding 'non-belief'. Therein methinks lies the problem. That said, I would be interested in you listing some of the points Mr Geisler makes in the book which you claim are challenging. In my view there is little challenging about the book other than reading it. I did flick through it randomly, reading little bits here and there until I could stand it no more. None of what I read would convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced. Indeed there are some remarkably naff parts. For example Mr Geisler claims that the New Testament is true because …. wait for it …..it says so in the New Testament. This is nonsense. Like many fellow believers here, Mr Geisler doesn’t seem to be able to get past the idea that because HE believes that the Bible is true it is only a matter of quoting from it to get the non-believer to come to the same view. Good luck with that. Matt10 Thank you, Matt10, for another great post.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2014 16:39:43 GMT -5
My faith imploded under its own weight nearly 30 years ago. I only recently started reading what atheists have written. Matisse ~ Thanks for sharing that tidbit about yourself. I know of a few friends who experienced a similar reaction, including my own husband, after leaving the 2x2's. It really can do a number on you until you get time and space to evaluate your feelings in light of reality. It also took me years to sort through the baggage I accumulated from 30 years within the 2x2's. So, I can understand the mixed emotions and disallusionment that must have surfaced afterward from my own experience.
DMG ~ Thanks for sharing some personal information above. That's what I was looking for in my inquiry, by the way. It adds more weigh to why you believe what you do today when you can add your own personal testimony and findings to the mix. JMT
In all due respect, faune,-calling such a life changing experience as Matisse's a "tidbit" doesn't seem to take very seriously what a person experienced. Perhaps that is one of the problems of why you have difficulty understanding some of us.
You tell us of your experience of leaving the 2x2's & you find a similarity to ours. However, you don't seem to understand our continuation of a complete disbelief in Christianity.
Perhaps you could gave us some of the reasons that while you don't believe that the 2x2's are right, that in spite of the thousands of different denominations of Christianity, you chose the one you are in now as a right one. Perhaps that would add "more weigh to why you also believe what you do today."
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Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 16:46:47 GMT -5
Faune Matt 10 ~ I tend to agree with your concluding statement above, too. I have also only skimmed Norman Geisler's book in the past, so I can't really really render an opinon on it myself. I tend to prefer Josh McDowell's writing style myself in those three references I gave earlier on the resurrection of Jesus. That is the very reason I started the new thread "What is Atheism" to help others understand the history and focus of people who are unbelievers in dieties of any kind.
That wasn't me who bumped such a thread, which I don't see on the Board at the present. The only one I resurrected recently was this one from 2006, started by spanky, since it goes along with another thread of mine relating to proof of Jesus existence from sacred texts. professing.proboards.com/thread/6744/why-contemporaries-wrote-jesus That said, I would be interested in you listing some of the points Mr Geisler makes in the book which you claim are challenging. In my view there is little challenging about the book other than reading it. I did flick through it randomly, reading little bits here and there until I could stand it no more. None of what I read would convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced. Indeed there are some remarkably naff parts. For example Mr Geisler claims that the New Testament is true because …. wait for it …..it says so in the New Testament. This is nonsense. Like many fellow believers here, Mr Geisler doesn’t seem to be able to get past the idea that because HE believes that the Bible is true it is only a matter of quoting from it to get the non-believer to come to the same view. Good luck with that. Matt10As I pointed out earlier, I have not read the book myself, but only skimmed it some time ago like yourself, so I can't really oblige you in this area. I was simply giving it as reference on the subject of the resurrection. Thank you, Matt10, for another great post.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 16:57:16 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Sept 6, 2014 16:59:40 GMT -5
My faith imploded under its own weight nearly 30 years ago. I only recently started reading what atheists have written. Matisse ~ Thanks for sharing that tidbit about yourself. I know of a few friends who experienced a similar reaction, including my own husband, after leaving the 2x2's. It really can do a number on your emotions until you get enough time and space to evaluate your feelings in light of reality. It also took me years to sort through the baggage I accumulated from 30 years within the 2x2's. So, I can understand the mixed emotions and disallusionment that must have surfaced afterward from my own experience. I personally have wondered if a lot of this stuff you end up needing to process has to do with that "one and only mentality" of the 2x2's, in which leaving is equated with losing God's favor, our salvation, and a one-way ticket to Hell?
I have attended various churches since then before moving on to my present church, but I never have experienced anything like what I felt after leaving the 2x2's. I tend to believe it's because of that "exclusive mindset" associated with the F&W's that contributed to all the separation anxiety after departing that group?
DMG ~ Thanks for sharing some personal information above. That's what I was looking for in my inquiry, by the way. It adds more weigh to why you believe what you do today when you can add your own personal testimony and findings to the mix. JMT
Some of us have written at length in past threads about our experiences. I thought you were part of those discussions, too. It is not like we have never explained ourselves before! If you keep asking as if you have not paid attention to what has been written in the past, you shouldnt be surprised if you start getting "pat answers."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 17:00:31 GMT -5
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had ever read any of these books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question. Faune That said, I would be interested in you listing some of the points Mr Geisler makes in the book which you claim are challenging. In my view there is little challenging about the book other than reading it. I did flick through it randomly, reading little bits here and there until I could stand it no more. None of what I read would convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced. Indeed there are some remarkably naff parts. For example Mr Geisler claims that the New Testament is true because …. wait for it …..it says so in the New Testament. This is nonsense. Like many fellow believers here, Mr Geisler doesn’t seem to be able to get past the idea that because HE believes that the Bible is true it is only a matter of quoting from it to get the non-believer to come to the same view. Good luck with that. Matt10 ah but people are convinced all the time of Jesus Christ because of quotings from the bible...
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Post by matisse on Sept 6, 2014 17:19:32 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Thanks for sharing that tidbit about yourself. :) I know of a few friends who experienced a similar reaction, including my own husband, after leaving the 2x2's. It really can do a number on your emotions until you get enough time and space to evaluate your feelings in light of reality. It also took me years to sort through the baggage I accumulated from 30 years within the 2x2's. So, I can understand the mixed emotions and disallusionment that must have surfaced afterward from my own experience. I personally have wondered if a lot of this stuff you end up needing to process has to do with that "one and only mentality" of the 2x2's, in which leaving is equated with losing God's favor, our salvation, and a one-way ticket to Hell? ???
I have attended various churches since then before moving on to my present church, but I never have experienced anything like what I felt after leaving the 2x2's. I tend to believe it's because of that "exclusive mindset" associated with the F&W's that contributed to all the separation anxiety after departing that group? Your words, faune, not mine. I agree with dimmichgood's comment about the use of the term "tidbit" to describe what was for me a profoundly life-changing moment. From this and other comments, I would say you have little or no understanding of the experience I have described.
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Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 17:32:23 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Thanks for sharing that tidbit about yourself. I know of a few friends who experienced a similar reaction, including my own husband, after leaving the 2x2's. It really can do a number on you until you get time and space to evaluate your feelings in light of reality. It also took me years to sort through the baggage I accumulated from 30 years within the 2x2's. So, I can understand the mixed emotions and disallusionment that must have surfaced afterward from my own experience.
DMG ~ Thanks for sharing some personal information above. That's what I was looking for in my inquiry, by the way. It adds more weigh to why you believe what you do today when you can add your own personal testimony and findings to the mix. JMT
In all due respect, faune,-calling such a life changing experience as Matisse's a "tidbit" doesn't seem to take very seriously what a person experienced. Perhaps that is one of the problems of why you have difficulty understanding some of us.
You tell us of your experience of leaving the 2x2's & you find a similarity to ours. However, you don't seem to understand our continuation of a complete disbelief in Christianity.
Perhaps you could gave us some of the reasons that while you don't believe that the 2x2's are right, that in spite of the thousands of different denominations of Christianity, you chose the one you are in now as a right one. Perhaps that would add "more weigh to why you also believe what you do today." DMG ~ In all due respect, I feel you are reading a whole lot more into my post than was ever intended by me. A tidbit to me is a condensed statement regarding one's life experiences in brief form. In no way was I trying to discredit Matisse's experience or her reasons for disbelief in God by using that descriptive word above! That's something you wrongfully injected into my statement! Also, Matisse has shared on different threads bits and pieces of her story in the past from my recollection? I have also done the same regarding the 2x2's, if you care to check back on some of my past posts to see what I shared from my own repetoire of memories?
As far as the disallusionment shared upon leaving the 2x2's, I feel that is something most of us mutually share upon departing the 2x2's, regardless which path we choose to follow afterward. Such internal feelings tend to create a real distrust of religion along with the past conditioning by workers received while professing. Although I still managed to hold on to my belief in God, I also had my struggles with unbelief due to all the deception that came to the surface after leaving the 2x2's. It took me years to get over that sense of betrayal of my trust due to the many lies we were led to believe as gospel truth.
Also, I hold no such belief today in a "one and only true church" since leaving the 2x2's. I do not regard my own church today as being the "right one" in comparison to any other Christian churches in my community. I look upon the body of Christ as being united as one regarding certain Christian beliefs and I don't make any effort to rate one above another. I never liked the air of exclusivity that surrounded the 2x2's and I have avoided that same influence found within other "one and only churches" that claim to hold a corner on salvation.
Hopefully, this answers your questions above?
www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 17:34:13 GMT -5
Faune That said, I would be interested in you listing some of the points Mr Geisler makes in the book which you claim are challenging. In my view there is little challenging about the book other than reading it. I did flick through it randomly, reading little bits here and there until I could stand it no more. None of what I read would convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced. Indeed there are some remarkably naff parts. For example Mr Geisler claims that the New Testament is true because …. wait for it …..it says so in the New Testament. This is nonsense. Like many fellow believers here, Mr Geisler doesn’t seem to be able to get past the idea that because HE believes that the Bible is true it is only a matter of quoting from it to get the non-believer to come to the same view. Good luck with that. Matt10 ah but people are convinced all the time of Jesus Christ because of quotings from the bible... Wally, I have no idea what your point is here or even if you are seriously attempting to make one. What I do know is that at one time people were convinced of the health benefits of smoking tobacco because of what it said on the packet. I hope that clarifies anything that needs clarified. Matt10
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Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 18:02:14 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Thanks for sharing that tidbit about yourself. I know of a few friends who experienced a similar reaction, including my own husband, after leaving the 2x2's. It really can do a number on your emotions until you get enough time and space to evaluate your feelings in light of reality. It also took me years to sort through the baggage I accumulated from 30 years within the 2x2's. So, I can understand the mixed emotions and disallusionment that must have surfaced afterward from my own experience. I personally have wondered if a lot of this stuff you end up needing to process has to do with that "one and only mentality" of the 2x2's, in which leaving is equated with losing God's favor, our salvation, and a one-way ticket to Hell?
I have attended various churches since then before moving on to my present church, but I never have experienced anything like what I felt after leaving the 2x2's. I tend to believe it's because of that "exclusive mindset" associated with the F&W's that contributed to all the separation anxiety after departing that group? Your words, faune, not mine.
I agree with dimmichgood's comment about the use of the term "tidbit" to describe what was for me a profoundly life-changing moment. From this and other comments, I would say you have little or no understanding of the experience I have described.Matisse ~ You have a right your opinion about my posts. However, I addressed this same matter with DMG just a few minutes ago. In no way was I trying to discredit "a proundly life-changing moment" of yours by my wording. Although we may have choose different paths after leaving the 2x2's, the feeling of disallusionment I feel is shared by many who leave the 2x2's. The deceitfulness fostered by the workers in a number of areas of the ministry was a major turn-off to me. It took me years to work through some of the emotional baggage from my past and to replace it with something worthwhile in my estimation.
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Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 18:07:19 GMT -5
From what I have seen, faune, Christian apologists play to the biases and blind spots of Christians (not all). Their job is to convince you that your faith is reasonable, and/or that the position of non-believers is not reasonable. For the reader who does not carry Christian biases and blind spots, the arguments of apologists are not likely to be compelling. Matisse ~ I believe that is a reasonable assumption on your part, considering that apologists are trying to build a case for belief and perhaps they do slant things in certain ways to produce acceptance?
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Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 18:21:50 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Sept 6, 2014 19:24:27 GMT -5
DMG ~ In all due respect, I feel you are reading a whole lot more into my post than was ever intended by me. O_o A tidbit to me is a condensed statement regarding one's life experiences in brief form tidbitnoun: 1) a small piece of tasty food. 2) a small and particularly interesting item of gossip or information.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 6, 2014 21:00:26 GMT -5
Thanks for this which is a great reminder of the centrality of the empty tomb.No wonder the Jews went to great lengths to spread the story that Christ's body had been stolen by the disciples. Even the disciples took time to realise the significance of the empty tomb. It would have been impossible for the disciples to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem had the tomb not been empty. It was discovered by women, who had a lowly status in Jewish society. The empty tomb is "sine qua non" of the resurrection. The fact that the Christian fellowship, founded on belief in Jesus' resurrection, could come into existence and flourish in the very city where he was executed and buried supports the historicity of the empty tomb.The other interesting point is that the Jewish prolemic presupposes the empty tomb. The fact that the Jewish polemic never denied that Jesus' tomb was empty, but only tried to explain it away is quite compelling evidence that the tomb was in fact empty. When looked at in detail, it is not easy to dismiss the empty tomb. Some who do, dismiss the existence of Jesus completely. But there were those who did that in his day. He was not the (political) answer they were looking for so they completely rejected his radical, but true, claims. After his resurrection many also continued to dismiss him as a fraud. There are those who do that today. This doesn't matter - the empty tomb is a constant reminder that Jesus rose from the dead as indeed He said he would. Let's view the idea of cause of an empty tomb if we should find one today. That someone in this day & age were to die and the next day someone went to the tomb to find it didn't contain a body.
What reasons might we start thinking would have caused it to be empty?
What would be possible answers that people of this day & age would begin to think about.
One reason could be that it never contained a body to begin with. (There are multiple reasons that this could happen) Another might be that the person was presumed dead but wasn't and instead become conscious & got up & left. Another was that someone found the person in the tomb wasn't dead & took them somewhere to care for them.
How many of the Christians here on this board in this day & age would just automatically believe that because that tomb was empty that the person of this day & age "rose from the dead?"
Suppose the person in the tomb was your mother, father, your brother? Wouldn't you be more concerned with finding the person to take care of them?
The point is today not one of us has seen a dead body arise from the dead, -not one of us. Today we know that can't happen.
But in the days that all the NT was recorded people DID believe such things happened & those instances weren't even confined to just Jesus.
So why do some people of the twenty-first century still believe like people first & second century?
Because Christians can't think of but one reason for an empty tomb.? That is because it fits with their belief?
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Post by Annan on Sept 7, 2014 10:24:00 GMT -5
My sister and I had to pay attention in church as our dad would quiz us afterwards. We got a taste of hell if we couldn't ante up. Oh, Annan! this was the message a lot of the beginning workers gave to parents and that was to force feed them the scriptures or at least those things the workers had taught the parents, not to spare the rod and drill them until their little minds could hold nothing but that which could be approved by their trust leaders! It is no wonder there are and will continue to be children in the 2x2's and other religions who grow up to an independence with determination that they will in no wise be so treated again nor will they treat their own children that way. I've seen such in my own family. I know I've tried to reach the happy medium and often failed and just gave up and let what will be, be! I know a family with many children, I think close to 12 or so...when the gospel came to the family, the father turned into something out of reality, he changed 360 degrees from the loving father he had been to a father that tried to beat the 2x2 submission into his youngest children who were still at home which were all but one and that one had gone into the work, himself. This created a prisoner sort of mentality to the 2x2 faith for the majority of those children...the kind that many of us came to know as we were bound for hell if we were not active 2x2s! The father even became very physical against his own wife. All of this at the approval of the workers who kept feeding him the old sparing the rod spoils the child! And evidently the wife as well! Presently, I have only one family member still professing and this is right up their alley! They have always had a jealousy toward me for what reason I fail to understand! NOW they hold the most wonderful thing and I don't and that is they are intrusted with so much! My question should be given to them, "What do you think you're intrusted with, that Jesus hasn't trusted to others beside yourself"....and something about they need to know more about that intrusted stewardship for it comes out of a manmade religion as well as any other religion on the face of the earth! But no, I know should this person be forced to rface even the real truth about the 2x2s they likely would loose their mind...so quiet I'll stay and pray that God will find the way to bring the real truth unto them! Two items of interest to me. An interview... in part... by Troy Williams and John Lamb Lash. "TW: I attended an Earthdance downtown as a group of people gathered to pray for world-peace. Two prayers struck me in particular. A member of the North West band of Shoshone stood up sang and spoke of a prophecy of our pending destruction – and then invoked, “Jesus our Savior” and the need for deliverance. After he spoke an African Christian minister gave a prayer and invoked Jesus again, praying for world peace. I was awe-struck. Here were two men, representing two cultures that have been utterly devastated by Christianity, and they are both invoking the deity of their oppressors to rescue them from the very oppression that the deity created in the first place!
JLL: It’s a staggering insight. You couldn’t ask for a more clear illustration of the victim-perpetrator bond than that. I’m sure they were totally sincere in their beliefs, but I would call them seriously deluded. Here they are pleading to this symbolic head of a belief system that has actually caused great destruction to the very cultures that they come from – Africa and the Native American culture. What they are doing essentilly is pleading with their perpetrators in a sense saying, we want to reconcile with you. But reconciliation only favors the perpetrator – and the game goes on.""Look at the posture of prayer. They are identical to the postures of captivity and slavery: head bowed, knees bent, hands shackled at the wrists, body prostrated, eyes closed, voice lowered -all to be submissive and nonthreatening before a great master who demands to be feared, served and adored." ~ Dan Barker
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Post by faune on Sept 7, 2014 10:45:34 GMT -5
DMG ~ In all due respect, I feel you are reading a whole lot more into my post than was ever intended by me. A tidbit to me is a condensed statement regarding one's life experiences in brief form tidbitnoun: 1) a small piece of tasty food. 2) a small and particularly interesting item of gossip or information. Rational ~ OK. I can see I probably used the wrong word above ~ perhaps "sampling" would have been a better choice of words? However, that one sentence was "a small and particularly interesting" item or piece of information supplied by Matisse, IMHO?
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Post by faune on Sept 7, 2014 10:54:04 GMT -5
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had read any of these authors actual books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question ~ I think? It just appeared to me that you had read more in the areas that supported atheism rather than Christianity?
Faune, I did not start out reading about atheism.
I started out reading everything that I could find on Christianity!
It was reading from about Christianity that I begin see there was NO EVIDENCE at all of any credibility in a virgin birth, a resurrection of a dead body! No evidence in the of the ability of a person overcoming gravity & ascending into the sky without any means of transportation.
Then I asked myself this question.
WHY HAD I BELIEVED THIS FOR SO MUCH OF MY LIFE?
The answer was simply that I had been conditioned to believe it.
DMG ~ Are you really that sure of yourself and your arguments? What about this article in relation to the resurrection by Josh McDowell? Be sure to check out Fact #6 in particular. You just might find an argument that competes with your own?
www.bible.ca/d-resurrection-evidence-Josh-McDowell.htm
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Post by faune on Sept 7, 2014 11:04:53 GMT -5
DMG ~ Better yet, here's the Introduction and those six (6) major facts from that previous referenced article by Josh McDowell that gives a strong argument for the resurrection taking place that would be hard to be denied, considering how Christian believers multiplied overnight in Jerusalem afterward and the spread of Christianity which followed down through the centuries.
www.bible.ca/d-resurrection-evidence-Josh-McDowell.htm
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Post by emy on Sept 7, 2014 13:56:24 GMT -5
Two items of interest to me. An interview... in part... by Troy Williams and John Lamb Lash. "TW: I attended an Earthdance downtown as a group of people gathered to pray for world-peace. Two prayers struck me in particular. A member of the North West band of Shoshone stood up sang and spoke of a prophecy of our pending destruction – and then invoked, “Jesus our Savior” and the need for deliverance. After he spoke an African Christian minister gave a prayer and invoked Jesus again, praying for world peace. I was awe-struck. Here were two men, representing two cultures that have been utterly devastated by Christianity, and they are both invoking the deity of their oppressors to rescue them from the very oppression that the deity created in the first place!
JLL: It’s a staggering insight. You couldn’t ask for a more clear illustration of the victim-perpetrator bond than that. I’m sure they were totally sincere in their beliefs, but I would call them seriously deluded. Here they are pleading to this symbolic head of a belief system that has actually caused great destruction to the very cultures that they come from – Africa and the Native American culture. What they are doing essentilly is pleading with their perpetrators in a sense saying, we want to reconcile with you. But reconciliation only favors the perpetrator – and the game goes on.""Look at the posture of prayer. They are identical to the postures of captivity and slavery: head bowed, knees bent, hands shackled at the wrists, body prostrated, eyes closed, voice lowered -all to be submissive and nonthreatening before a great master who demands to be feared, served and adored." ~ Dan BarkerI would say those two men have embraced a typical Christian belief that world peace will exist when most individual people have inner peace. It's not much to do with who is ruling in a country, but Who is ruling in hearts.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 7, 2014 16:15:51 GMT -5
Faune, I did not start out reading about atheism.
I started out reading everything that I could find on Christianity!
It was reading from about Christianity that I begin see there was NO EVIDENCE at all of any credibility in a virgin birth, a resurrection of a dead body! No evidence in the of the ability of a person overcoming gravity & ascending into the sky without any means of transportation.
Then I asked myself this question.
WHY HAD I BELIEVED THIS FOR SO MUCH OF MY LIFE?
The answer was simply that I had been conditioned to believe it. DMG ~ Are you really that sure of yourself and your arguments? What about this article in relation to the resurrection by Josh McDowell? Be sure to check out Fact #6 in particular. You just might find an argument that competes with your own?
www.bible.ca/d-resurrection-evidence-Josh-McDowell.htm Faune, Why in the world do you think any one of those arguments would change my mind?
Josh-McDowell is trying call upon history for proof when there very scant history out side of the NT about Jesus.
All we really have is the NT and since when is it logical or rational to use one part of a document to validate another part of the same document?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 7, 2014 16:26:32 GMT -5
Let's view the idea of cause of an empty tomb if we should find one today. That someone in this day & age were to die and the next day someone went to the tomb to find it didn't contain a body.
What reasons might we start thinking would have caused it to be empty?
What would be possible answers that people of this day & age would begin to think about.
One reason could be that it never contained a body to begin with. (There are multiple reasons that this could happen) Another might be that the person was presumed dead but wasn't and instead become conscious & got up & left. Another was that someone found the person in the tomb wasn't dead & took them somewhere to care for them.
How many of the Christians here on this board in this day & age would just automatically believe that because that tomb was empty that the person of this day & age "rose from the dead?"
Suppose the person in the tomb was your mother, father, your brother? Wouldn't you be more concerned with finding the person to take care of them?
The point is today not one of us has seen a dead body arise from the dead, -not one of us. Today we know that can't happen.
But in the days that all the NT was recorded people DID believe such things happened & those instances weren't even confined to just Jesus.
So why do some people of the twenty-first century still believe like people first & second century?
Because Christians can't think of but one reason for an empty tomb.? That is because it fits with their belief?
We read in the Old Testament about Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without death. They appeared in human bodies and talked to Jesus on Mt. transfiguration in Matthew chapter 17. So, Jesus empty tomb and taken up into the sky is NOT impossible. Jesus was telling the Rapture of the Church/assembly of believers taken up in the sky with the new resurrection bodies like the one Jesus has. There were over 500 disciples and apostles SAW Jesus after the empty tomb! Thomas put his finger in the wounds of his body! Ghost does not have a physical body. After the empty tomb Jesus talked and ate fish with his disciples, telling them to go and preach to all nations and he was going to be with them and those after them unto the end of time. This is you belief, Nathan. However, just because it is your belief isn't proof that it is true . No more than that your belief in extraterresial aliens are proof that they exist.
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Post by rational on Sept 7, 2014 17:01:43 GMT -5
It is historical fact by over 500 eyewitnesses! that Jesus raised from the empty tomb and now sitting at God's right hand. There is a recorded story that this happened. Far from fact. We agree on this point NathanBVal Thor has said himself that this is not so.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 7, 2014 17:02:03 GMT -5
DMG ~ Better yet, here's the Introduction and those six (6) major facts from that previous referenced article by Josh McDowell that gives a strong argument for the resurrection taking place that would be hard to be denied, considering how Christian believers multiplied overnight in Jerusalem afterward and the spread of Christianity which followed down through the centuries.
www.bible.ca/d-resurrection-evidence-Josh-McDowell.htm
Faune, that statement is a logical fallacy, the bandwagon fallacy:
"strong argument for the resurrection taking place that would be hard to be denied, considering how Christian believers multiplied overnight in Jerusalem afterward and the spread of Christianity which followed down through the centuries."
bandwagon fallacy:
"concluding that an idea has merit simply because many people believe it or practice it. (e.g., Most people believe in a god; therefore, it must prove true.)
Simply because many people may believe something says nothing about the fact of that something.
For example: many people during the Black plague believed that demons caused disease.
The number of believers say nothing at all about the cause of disease."
Description of FallaciesIn order to understand what a fallacy is, one must understand what an argument is. Very briefly, an argument consists of one or more premises and one conclusion. A premise is a statement (a sentence that is either true or false) that is offered in support of the claim being made, which is the conclusion (which is also a sentence that is either true or false). A fallacy is, very generally, an error in reasoning. This differs from a factual error, which is simply being wrong about the facts. To be more specific, a fallacy is an "argument" in which the premises given for the conclusion do not provide the needed degree of support.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 7, 2014 17:25:37 GMT -5
Two items of interest to me. An interview... in part... by Troy Williams and John Lamb Lash. "TW: I attended an Earthdance downtown as a group of people gathered to pray for world-peace. Two prayers struck me in particular. A member of the North West band of Shoshone stood up sang and spoke of a prophecy of our pending destruction – and then invoked, “Jesus our Savior” and the need for deliverance. After he spoke an African Christian minister gave a prayer and invoked Jesus again, praying for world peace. I was awe-struck. Here were two men, representing two cultures that have been utterly devastated by Christianity, and they are both invoking the deity of their oppressors to rescue them from the very oppression that the deity created in the first place!
JLL: It’s a staggering insight. You couldn’t ask for a more clear illustration of the victim-perpetrator bond than that. I’m sure they were totally sincere in their beliefs, but I would call them seriously deluded. Here they are pleading to this symbolic head of a belief system that has actually caused great destruction to the very cultures that they come from – Africa and the Native American culture. What they are doing essentilly is pleading with their perpetrators in a sense saying, we want to reconcile with you. But reconciliation only favors the perpetrator – and the game goes on.""Look at the posture of prayer. They are identical to the postures of captivity and slavery: head bowed, knees bent, hands shackled at the wrists, body prostrated, eyes closed, voice lowered -all to be submissive and nonthreatening before a great master who demands to be feared, served and adored." ~ Dan BarkerI would say those two men have embraced a typical Christian belief that world peace will exist when most individual people have inner peace. It's not much to do with who is ruling in a country, but Who is ruling in hearts. I would say that it has nothing to do with anything other than that they were brainwashed into believing that the very deity of their oppressors would rescue them.
(I know Dan Barker. His life is quite a story.
He was a fundamentalist Christian minister at one time until he begin to ask himself some serious questions. He is now co-president of FFRF, (Freedom From Religion Foundation)
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