|
Post by dmmichgood on Sept 3, 2014 16:23:17 GMT -5
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. I knew there was an explanation! "It doesn't seem right that they would not recognize Jesus." "God did it. Introduced 'face blindness'." "Of course. That makes sense." (What would be the point of not letting them know to whom they were talking? Could it be they walked/talked with a stranger and later applied a name after convincing themselves that their eyes were 'holden'?) That would fit in with the book, The Passover Plot.
That the disciples did not "know" him (Jesus) because it really wasn't Jesus!from wiki: "According to Schonfield's analysis, the events of the Passover, which are presented in all the Gospels, but inconsistently, are most accurately presented in the Gospel of John. His reading of that Gospel convinced him that John's account, though probably filtered through an assistant and transcription in John's old age, suggests that Jesus had planned everything. Among other things, so that he would not be on the cross for more than a few hours before the Sabbath arrived when it was required by law that Jews be taken down, so that one of his supporters, who was on hand, would give him water (to quench his thirst) that was actually laced with a drug to make him unconscious, and so that Joseph of Arimathea, a well-connected supporter, would collect him off the cross while still alive (but appearing dead) so that he could b e secretly nursed back to health. Schonfield suggests that the plan went awry because of a soldier's actions with a spear. Schonfield gives evidence of a high-ranking member of the Sanhedrin who was one of Jesus' followers, likely the Beloved Disciple who is otherwise obscure, and notes several instances in which knowledge of or access to the Temple was available to one or more of Jesus' followers. He identifies this follower as John, the source of the Gospel many decades later whilst living in Asia Minor. He suggests that this Apostle, and Joseph of Arimathea, were responsible for events following the Crucifixion, and that it might have been this Apostle (an 'undercover Disciple', as it were) who was seen (by those who did not know him) at the Tomb on the morning of the Resurrection." It is a Very interesting book. I read it a long time ago. It is certainly a better explanation of what may have happened rather than any "supernatural" explanation.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Sept 4, 2014 0:03:39 GMT -5
No, wally. Some of us may have been Christians, but it is NOT a "rejection" of something when you realize it doesn't exist!
It is one of those eureka moments. You realize all of a sudden what you had been so concerned about all your life doesn't even exist!
....so why do some atheists say He probably doesn't exist....?? It's like the eureka moment that many Christians have when they turn to their Creator. Did you become an atheist after you had been out of the 2x2's for some time or when you were still in the group? Could it be that "some atheists" are still just agnostics and sitting on the fence?
Why does it matter to you at what time in my life I realized that there wasn't any god or gods (or goddesses, either)?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Sept 4, 2014 15:53:09 GMT -5
Not sure - maybe an each way bet... Thought you might be interested in telling us about when you became an atheist...but happy if you want to keep it private Ross, the atheists help us to confirm and increase our faith in God. They help us to examine our faith, and belief... Did we believe in God because we love him? or going along with the crowd? to please our parents. I believe the atheists are working out their own salvation in their own ways also. Nathan, Nathan,
-as an atheist who sees no evidence for a god, -tell me why I would be "working out my salvation?"
No god. No need to be "saved!"
|
|
|
Post by irvinegrey on Sept 4, 2014 16:33:05 GMT -5
Every believer has some theology of the atonement. Without what Christ has done for us at Calvary we are without hope.
Faith, after all, is trust in a crucified Savior, and without some understanding, such faith is impossible. Faith knows from the beginning who died on the cross, and it knows, too, why he died. He died for our sins.
But faith can never be content with such elementary knowledge. It wants to live its whole life at the foot of the cross, seeking with every passing day to understand it better.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Sept 4, 2014 18:49:21 GMT -5
Every believer has some theology of the atonement. Without what Christ has done for us at Calvary we are without hope. Well, this is just plain silly. People think they are without hope because they have bought into the belief that they are born with original sin and have to be 'saved' by the same organization that taught them they were sinful. It is convincing someone they have a deadly disease and then selling them a placebo as a remedy. Which sins? I take it this is a metaphor for something and not a literal statement.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Sept 4, 2014 22:00:30 GMT -5
Nathan, Nathan,
-as an atheist who sees no evidence for a god, -tell me why I would be "working out my salvation?"
No god. No need to be "saved!"
After death you will want to be SAVED from the torment of eternal fire..... Just like the Rich man.... Luke 16:24-31 No, Nathan, after death I will just be dead.
I've ceased to be scared by that bogey man a long time ago.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Sept 5, 2014 8:01:51 GMT -5
Your body will go back to the dust where it came from.... the ground What about the water and the volatile hydrocarbons? Where will they go? The amino acids and the glycoproteins? Where do these things go?Sounds like there has already been some judging going on before the day of judgement. Why is there this waiting period? Is it possible that those who die first and are condemned to torment beforethe day of judgement will end up in a place of eternal bliss?Can you envision any situation where spending an eternity would not become hell?I recognize this is your belief. Yet in the story you were quoting the rich man was asking for water. Would a soul need water? Or was that a bodily need? It seems like you are giving a mixed message about souls and bodies!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Sept 5, 2014 9:02:14 GMT -5
Thanks for this which is a great reminder of the centrality of the empty tomb. No wonder the Jews went to great lengths to spread the story that Christ's body had been stolen by the disciples. Even the disciples took time to realise the significance of the empty tomb. It might have been because they were all Jews and has read, and believed, in their sacred text that the body would return to dust. Suddenly they were faced with a contradiction because there was no body to return to dust. To avoid this problem some additional material had to be created to explain this impossible situation. It is only natural. Do what you have to do to avoid cognitive dissonance. Or because the tomb was empty it was claimed he was resurrected? As you said - it took time for this story to develop.There are many examples of stories/myths that have may believers. Does the fact that there are 15 million Mormons make you believe that Joseph Smith, with his face in a hat, read the translation of the gold plates that appeared on a seer stone in the hat and then vanished when the correct copy was completed? Belief and reality are two different things.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Sept 5, 2014 10:34:14 GMT -5
Not sure - maybe an each way bet... Thought you might be interested in telling us about when you became an atheist...but happy if you want to keep it private Ross, the atheists help us to confirm and increase our faith in God. They help us to examine our faith, and belief... Did we believe in God because we love him? or going along with the crowd? to please our parents. I believe the atheists are working out their own salvation in their own ways also. Nathan ~ I most definitely agree with your statement above. Atheists do help us examine our faith and belief system and make us want to prove to ourselves that what we believe to be true is actually real. Honestly, some comments of atheists/agnostics on this Board have inspired me to do a deeper search into my own beliefs and early Christianity as a result. So, I'm grateful in a way for the challenge they put to us on TMB to prove the validity of our own beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Sept 5, 2014 10:44:16 GMT -5
Your body will go back to the dust where it came from.... the ground.... God/Christ who gave you a soul to live... After the First death your soul will go to either to paradise/happiness or a place of torment/waiting for the day of Judgment before God. Those who names are NOT written in the book of life will spent an endless eternity in outer darkness forever. This is the SECOND Death. Jesus lived, died and he told us about it when he was alive. I believe in his words, and warning because he rose from the dead and resurrected back to heaven where he came from as God/the Son.
Jesus gives us an insight what will take place after DEATH to a believer/Lazarus and an unbeliever/the Rich man... in Luke 16.
According to the story of Rich man in Luke Jesus said ... His human body was dead but NOT his soul lives on forever and ever in the place of torment/suffering and regrets.
Thanks for this which is a great reminder of the centrality of the empty tomb. No wonder the Jews went to great lengths to spread the story that Christ's body had been stolen by the disciples. Even the disciples took time to realise the significance of the empty tomb. It would have been impossible for the disciples to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem had the tomb not been empty. It was discovered by women, who had a lowly status in Jewish society. The empty tomb is "sine qua non" of the resurrection. The fact that the Christian fellowship, founded on belief in Jesus' resurrection, could come into existence and flourish in the very city where he was executed and buried supports the historicity of the empty tomb. The other interesting point is that the Jewish prolemic presupposes the empty tomb. The fact that the Jewish polemic never denied that Jesus' tomb was empty, but only tried to explain it away is quite compelling evidence that the tomb was in fact empty. When looked at in detail, it is not easy to dismiss the empty tomb. Some who do, dismiss the existence of Jesus completely. But there were those who did that in his day. He was not the (political) answer they were looking for so they completely rejected his radical, but true, claims. After his resurrection many also continued to dismiss him as a fraud. There are those who do that today. This doesn't matter - the empty tomb is a constant reminder that Jesus rose from the dead as indeed He said he would. Ross ~ I agree with your statement about the empty tomb! It's definitely a constant reminder that Jesus was true to his word to the end and whether or not people choose to believe the appearance stories found within the gospel accounts is up to them personally. Also, Lee Strobel wrote a book on this very subject entitled, "The Case for Easter" and Josh McDowell wrote a similar book on the subject, entitled "More Than a Carpenter." Obviously, these were two atheists who had a change of heart about Jesus and his resurrection after all? I had the pleasure of meeting Josh McDowell in person once at a local church event and I was impressed with his testimony before his presentation. This was back when the Da Vinci Code was coming out and there was a big stir over the contents of that book by Dan Brown. Josh McDowell did a talk on the contents of that book and how fiction could easily be mistaken for reality by its storyline. In addition, another excellent book on the subject of the resurrection of Jesus is "Who Moved the Stone" by Frank Morison.
By the way, all three books I would highly recommend any Christian to read to increase their faith in God, as well as for any atheist/agnostic to consider as a challenge to their own beliefs?
www.amazon.com/The-Case-Easter-Investigates-Resurrection/dp/0310254752
www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/1414326270
www.changinglivesonline.org/item-by-category/books/item/748-more-than-a-carpenter-josh-and-sean-mcdowell.html
www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-Stone-Frank-Morison/dp/0310295610
|
|
|
Post by faune on Sept 5, 2014 11:59:22 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I most definitely agree with your statement above. Atheists do help us examine our faith and belief system and make us want to prove to ourselves that what we believe to be true is actually real. Honestly, some comments of atheists/agnostics on this Board have inspired me to do a deeper search into my own beliefs and early Christianity as a result. So, I'm grateful in a way for the challenge they put to us on TMB to prove the validity of our own beliefs. Many atheists on TMB have asked many good questions about God, life after death. It gives us a wonderful opportunity to share our belief, faith in God, and understanding. They help us to read, study, and search these things out for ourselves. They have increased our Knowledge and more UNDERSTANDING about our heavenly Father, and our Lord God Jesus Christ with greater love and bonding for them. Thanks, Faune and other believers help on TMB. Nathan ~ I agree. Perhaps some atheists or agnostics should read this book by Norman Geisler entitled, "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" to challenge their own beliefs? I suggested it to Rational on another thread this morning, in fact.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2014 14:51:44 GMT -5
Many atheists on TMB have asked many good questions about God, life after death. It gives us a wonderful opportunity to share our belief, faith in God, and understanding. They help us to read, study, and search these things out for ourselves. They have increased our Knowledge and more UNDERSTANDING about our heavenly Father, and our Lord God Jesus Christ with greater love and bonding for them. Thanks, Faune and other believers help on TMB. Nathan ~ I agree. Perhaps some atheists or agnostics should read this book by Norman Geisler entitled, "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" to challenge their own beliefs? I suggested it to Rational on another thread this morning, in fact.
Why should just one more book by just one more Christian apologist challenge my way of thinking?
Why should it challenge my way of thinking when I had thought through all that before?
"Norman L. Geisler is a Christian apologist and the co-founder of Southern Evangelical Seminary outside Charlotte, North Carolina. Geisler is well known for his scholarly contributions to the subjects of Christian apologetics, philosophy, and moderate Calvinism. "
|
|
|
Post by faune on Sept 5, 2014 17:00:23 GMT -5
DMG ~ Well, you may never know until you give it a shot and read their books? Perhaps by making an effort to put aside your prejudice regarding Christian apologists, I feel you might find many challenging points shared by Norman Geisler, Lee Strobel, and Josh McDowell?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Sept 5, 2014 17:16:22 GMT -5
DMG ~ Well, you may never know until you give it a shot and read their books? Perhaps by making an effort to put aside your prejudice regarding Christian apologists, I feel you might find many challenging points shared by Norman Geisler, Lee Strobel, and Josh McDowell? No, faune, I DON'T need to give "it shot and read their books!" No, faune, I have no need to put aside any prejudice regarding Christian apologists, since I have NO prejudice against Christian apologists.
I don't pre-judge apologists!
I've already read the apolgists!
I don't have to re-read them to know what they say and to know the lack of evidence they have for their god!
How do you think that I arrived at the point where I realized there simply wasn't any gods or goddesses?
I didn't just reach out & pluck it from nowhere.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Sept 6, 2014 1:39:53 GMT -5
Perhaps by making an effort to put aside your prejudice regarding Christian apologists, I feel you might find many challenging points shared by Norman Geisler, Lee Strobel, and Josh McDowell? None of the people you mentioned have ever made a challenging point. They have, at best, made excuses.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 9:50:50 GMT -5
"The frog whisperer " horses, dogs, why not frogs? Alvin Aww, the mental discourse like this: One huge adult bullfrog sat on the bank of a lake one evening croaking inn his lowest keys "Too deep, too deep!" Across the lake from him sat a half grown, teenage bull frog who was surprised that his mentor couldn't solve his own problem! So he croaked in his changing voice, "Go around, go around." This being the sad case and the huge bullfrog failing to pay heed to the youngster, the landowner adds his take on it: "Go around papa frog or else you'll fit into the bottom of my wife's iron skillet!" To say the least, There wasn't another croak heard from either frog party for a number of days. This worried the landowner so he sat at one end of the lake and mimicked the papa bull frog's croak: "Too deep, too deep." It took several repeats of this attempt to get the frog's attention.....so finally all the frog's in the lake began to sing all at once, but there was such cacophony of words that the message to the landowner was not clear! This not only perplexed the farmer, the mature bullfrog as well, so he decided he was going to do his own thing...too bad, for sat there the landowner with his net and snared big ole bullfrog and as the bull frog realized his mistake, he just sang out to his mates in the lake: "Take care, take care! We have a man who speaks with us!"
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 9:59:56 GMT -5
I guess I really should have paid more attention when these things were being discussed in the living room if my youth instead of watching the clock waiting for the time to go by. My sister and I had to pay attention in church as our dad would quiz us afterwards. We got a taste of hell if we couldn't ante up. Oh, Annan! this was the message a lot of the beginning workers gave to parents and that was to force feed them the scriptures or at least those things the workers had taught the parents, not to spare the rod and drill them until their little minds could hold nothing but that which could be approved by their trust leaders! It is no wonder there are and will continue to be children in the 2x2's and other religions who grow up to an independence with determination that they will in no wise be so treated again nor will they treat their own children that way. I've seen such in my own family. I know I've tried to reach the happy medium and often failed and just gave up and let what will be, be! I know a family with many children, I think close to 12 or so...when the gospel came to the family, the father turned into something out of reality, he changed 360 degrees from the loving father he had been to a father that tried to beat the 2x2 submission into his youngest children who were still at home which were all but one and that one had gone into the work, himself. This created a prisoner sort of mentality to the 2x2 faith for the majority of those children...the kind that many of us came to know as we were bound for hell if we were not active 2x2s! The father even became very physical against his own wife. All of this at the approval of the workers who kept feeding him the old sparing the rod spoils the child! And evidently the wife as well! Presently, I have only one family member still professing and this is right up their alley! They have always had a jealousy toward me for what reason I fail to understand! NOW they hold the most wonderful thing and I don't and that is they are intrusted with so much! My question should be given to them, "What do you think you're intrusted with, that Jesus hasn't trusted to others beside yourself"....and something about they need to know more about that intrusted stewardship for it comes out of a manmade religion as well as any other religion on the face of the earth! But no, I know should this person be forced to rface even the real truth about the 2x2s they likely would loose their mind...so quiet I'll stay and pray that God will find the way to bring the real truth unto them!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 10:05:14 GMT -5
Every believer has some theology of the atonement. Without what Christ has done for us at Calvary we are without hope. Faith, after all, is trust in a crucified Savior, and without some understanding, such faith is impossible. Faith knows from the beginning who died on the cross, and it knows, too, why he died. He died for our sins. But faith can never be content with such elementary knowledge. It wants to live its whole life at the foot of the cross, seeking with every passing day to understand it better. Thanks, Irvine! Made me remember the father who'd approached Jesus to cure or save his little daughter.....Jesus spoke about weak faith and no better faith, etc. The father cried from the depths of his need "Help thou my unbelief!" I find I need to pray daily that God would increase my faith, particularly as my faith first came from Him....so pure faith has to come from God and He does increase our faith....sometimes we get down so far that even in our deepest need we still cry, "Lord, help thou my unbelief!"
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 10:14:27 GMT -5
After death you will want to be SAVED from the torment of eternal fire..... Just like the Rich man.... Luke 16:24-31 No, Nathan, after death I will just be dead.
I've ceased to be scared by that bogey man a long time ago.You may think you've ceased to be scared by death's bogey man a long time ago...but I feel certain you as well as every person who has been born of mankind will face that battle between soul and body in which there is NO Discharge from that war. You may not be scared, but you will find that your flesh does not wish to part with your soul and your flesh will fight with your soul for pre-eminence and victory....at least for a little while. Where do I get this? It's something you should have witnessed if you've done any nursing....HOW many times have you watched someone who's body was racked with malignant illness and it was beyond human understanding why they continued to linger? This is that battle of the flesh determinedly hanging onto the soul(which according to the bible is the breath of life)... The bible also declares such a battle will be faced.....irregardless.....I've seen it too often...in believers of rich faith and in unbelievers of no faith! The body does not want to be parted from that breath of life that was given to it on the moment of birth into the world. And yes, there are people who seem to die instantly, but we have no idea of the moments their battle was fought...had it been some time ago? Or was it something in the horrible crisis of the moment that someone failed to witness that struggle? Likely...... Yes, whether we believe in a God or whether we believe that once our breath quits and never more are we to be found alive....we all will struggle to keep alive that which we know in our own self.....
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 10:23:39 GMT -5
Your body will go back to the dust where it came from.... the ground.... God/Christ who gave you a soul to live... After the First death your soul will go to either to paradise/happiness or a place of torment/waiting for the day of Judgment before God. Those who names are NOT written in the book of life will spent an endless eternity in outer darkness forever. This is the SECOND Death. Jesus lived, died and he told us about it when he was alive. I believe in his words, and warning because he rose from the dead and resurrected back to heaven where he came from as God/the Son.
Jesus gives us an insight what will take place after DEATH to a believer/Lazarus and an unbeliever/the Rich man... in Luke 16.
According to the story of Rich man in Luke Jesus said ... His human body was dead but NOT his soul lives on forever and ever in the place of torment/suffering and regrets.
Thanks for this which is a great reminder of the centrality of the empty tomb. No wonder the Jews went to great lengths to spread the story that Christ's body had been stolen by the disciples. Even the disciples took time to realise the significance of the empty tomb. It would have been impossible for the disciples to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem had the tomb not been empty. It was discovered by women, who had a lowly status in Jewish society. The empty tomb is "sine qua non" of the resurrection. The fact that the Christian fellowship, founded on belief in Jesus' resurrection, could come into existence and flourish in the very city where he was executed and buried supports the historicity of the empty tomb. The other interesting point is that the Jewish prolemic presupposes the empty tomb. The fact that the Jewish polemic never denied that Jesus' tomb was empty, but only tried to explain it away is quite compelling evidence that the tomb was in fact empty. When looked at in detail, it is not easy to dismiss the empty tomb. Some who do, dismiss the existence of Jesus completely. But there were those who did that in his day. He was not the (political) answer they were looking for so they completely rejected his radical, but true, claims. After his resurrection many also continued to dismiss him as a fraud. There are those who do that today. This doesn't matter - the empty tomb is a constant reminder that Jesus rose from the dead as indeed He said he would. Thanks, Ross...I had never put the empty tomb into such understandable terms before! I like the thought of what you said that in the very last of your thought and that was that Jesus did what He had said he would! I often think about his death on the cross...Now as I see it, the enemy crucified Jesus, but they did NOT take his life from him! To me this was just fulfilling what Jesus told his followers "I have power to give up my life and I have power to take it up again!" And indeed as you said, so it was found....the soldiers came to break his legs so he could no longer push up to take an enriching oxygen breath to live just a little longer....they were surprised...so they stabbed his side and released the life-giving flow of blood and water! But Jesus' human body had already ceased to live by Jesus' own powers not his enemies. They had just put him in the position so that they might take his life after letting him suffer untold agonies! Awww, but it backfired on them. Even the centurion when seeing Jesus was already dead said that indeed Jesus was divine and a good man! I suspect that centurion spent the rest of his life begging for mercy for the part he was forced as a leader of soldiers in that which Jesus was forced to suffer! Now, I Know that some will come on here and say that all of this was written after the crucifixion to make it look feasible and reasonable...but again that is an issue of faith!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 10:35:29 GMT -5
Ross, the atheists help us to confirm and increase our faith in God. They help us to examine our faith, and belief... Did we believe in God because we love him? or going along with the crowd? to please our parents. I believe the atheists are working out their own salvation in their own ways also. Nathan ~ I most definitely agree with your statement above. Atheists do help us examine our faith and belief system and make us want to prove to ourselves that what we believe to be true is actually real. Honestly, some comments of atheists/agnostics on this Board have inspired me to do a deeper search into my own beliefs and early Christianity as a result. So, I'm grateful in a way for the challenge they put to us on TMB to prove the validity of our own beliefs. Awww, the test of the negative approaches! Reminded me that Jesus told his followers that even the demons and devils knew who Jesus was/is....so in that case, that also stirred me up into a deeper need for an increased faith from heaven in the "right" outlook of Jesus and all that comes down to us through that faith! So IF atheists have NO faith in Jesus Christ as he is fold of in the NT, then they are not as smart as the demons, eh? I'm just punning here or funning. For surely to be a demon and know who Jesus Christ was/is would certainly spill doom for me, at least! WE read of several instances where the demons had conversation with Jesus...the Pharisees and scribes attributed all this ability of Jesus to talk to and cast out these said demons as he was Beelzebub, the master of demons, etc...BUT Jesus told them that would be like a house dividied against itself and it would not stand. And that alone was Jesus telling them that the powers that seem to last the longest were their own powers where they went over the lands seeking to add one convert and making him worse them all..... So perhaps being able to speak to demons is not the bad part, the bad part is allowing them to stay, eh? I think of my own mom....she had a malformation of an arterial venous thing deep in her brain and when this thing went into spasms she'd hear conflicting and troubling voices in her head...my sis told her that those voices were voices of the devil and mom replied, "Well, he can just get the hell out of here, then!" She meant it and none of us heard her complain with those voices ever again...though we knew that her A-V malformation misfired often! She summarily discharged the devil that day! I wish it were that easy for me and maybe I'm not strong enough in my faith of having that kind of strength coming from the Lord to do that.....Makes me think of the advice that was given to Joshua: "Be of a 'good' courage." I haven't quite figured out any other kind of courage, but I'm sure the fruit of such wouldn't be good fruit.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 11:02:46 GMT -5
Perhaps by making an effort to put aside your prejudice regarding Christian apologists, I feel you might find many challenging points shared by Norman Geisler, Lee Strobel, and Josh McDowell? None of the people you mentioned have ever made a challenging point. They have, at best, made excuses. Rational ~ Well, a number of readers feel differently about these authors, which have made their books popular in the area of apologetics, IMHO. I have also been impressed with their presentaton and logic from a Christian's point of view.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 11:09:40 GMT -5
No, faune, I DON'T need to give "it shot and read their books!" No, faune, I have no need to put aside any prejudice regarding Christian apologists, since I have NO prejudice against Christian apologists.
I don't pre-judge apologists!
I've already read the apolgists!
I don't have to re-read them to know what they say and to know the lack of evidence they have for their god! How do you think that I arrived at the point where I realized there simply wasn't any gods or goddesses?
I didn't just reach out & pluck it from nowhere.
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had ever read any of these books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Sept 6, 2014 11:15:23 GMT -5
No, faune, I DON'T need to give "it shot and read their books!" No, faune, I have no need to put aside any prejudice regarding Christian apologists, since I have NO prejudice against Christian apologists.
I don't pre-judge apologists!
I've already read the apolgists!
I don't have to re-read them to know what they say and to know the lack of evidence they have for their god! How do you think that I arrived at the point where I realized there simply wasn't any gods or goddesses?
I didn't just reach out & pluck it from nowhere.
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had read any of these authors actual books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question ~ I think? It just appeared to me that you had read more in the areas that supported atheism rather than Christianity?
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Sept 6, 2014 11:42:38 GMT -5
From what I have seen, faune, Christian apologists play to the biases and blind spots of Christians (not all). Their job is to convince you that your faith is reasonable, and/or that the position of non-believers is not reasonable.
For the reader who does not carry Christian biases and blind spots, the arguments of apologists are not likely to be compelling.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Sept 6, 2014 11:44:53 GMT -5
None of the people you mentioned have ever made a challenging point. They have, at best, made excuses. Rational ~ Well, a number of readers feel differently about these authors, which have made their books popular in the area of apologetics, IMHO. I have also been impressed with their presentaton and logic from a Christian's point of view. I am sure there are many, many christians and theists alike that believe these people have raised challenging points. However, logic is neither theist, christian, nor atheist. It is simply logic. There have been many reviews of these books that actually examine the syllogisms presented. They, as was the case with Belshazzar, were "...weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."
|
|
|
Post by emy on Sept 6, 2014 13:57:48 GMT -5
I know a family, and suspect there are more on this side than the other, which experienced the very opposite.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 14:03:47 GMT -5
No, faune, I DON'T need to give "it shot and read their books!" No, faune, I have no need to put aside any prejudice regarding Christian apologists, since I have NO prejudice against Christian apologists.
I don't pre-judge apologists!
I've already read the apolgists!
I don't have to re-read them to know what they say and to know the lack of evidence they have for their god! How do you think that I arrived at the point where I realized there simply wasn't any gods or goddesses?
I didn't just reach out & pluck it from nowhere.
DMG ~ I just wondered if you had ever read any of these books relating to the resurrection of Jesus. Thanks for answering that question. Faune I have the book ‘I don’t have enough Faith to be an Atheist’ by Norman Geisler which you have referred to. However I don’t claim to have read it. The book was given to me by someone who wanted rid of it having been given it by a current 2x2 with good intentions. What those with good intentions often fail to understand is that those who have travelled the road from belief to unbelief are unlikely ever to wish to return. I think it might therefore be much more profitable if those believers who wish to debate with non-believers on threads such as this would first focus on trying to understand 'unbelief' rather than continually trying to persuade non-believers to become believers through the endless quoting of verses of ancient books in which the non-believers do not believe, or through the promotion of modern books by Christian apologists which non-believers are unlikely ever to read. I note that you recently bumped the thread ‘From Belief to Unbelief’; it is worth noting that not a single believer commented on that thread in a year and a half. It is clear to me that while many non-believers have a good grasp of belief (having been there), the believers seem to have a real problem understanding 'non-belief'. Therein methinks lies the problem. That said, I would be interested in you listing some of the points Mr Geisler makes in the book which you claim are challenging. In my view there is little challenging about the book other than reading it. I did flick through it randomly, reading little bits here and there until I could stand it no more. None of what I read would convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced. Indeed there are some remarkably naff parts. For example Mr Geisler claims that the New Testament is true because …. wait for it …..it says so in the New Testament. This is nonsense. Like many fellow believers here, Mr Geisler doesn’t seem to be able to get past the idea that because HE believes that the Bible is true it is only a matter of quoting from it to get the non-believer to come to the same view. Good luck with that. Matt10
|
|