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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 17, 2014 16:44:57 GMT -5
dmmichgood said: ‘The length that a Christian apologist will go in twisting ideas into what they want to believe seems to know no end!’
What an incredulous statement. I would posit that it takes more blind faith on the part of an atheist to deny the existence of God. Christians do not have to twist ideas to justify our faith in the living God. The Psalmist expressed it succinctly when he says, The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1
I have many friends who are atheists, I have met many atheists during my life and most have one thing in common and that is that they have never read the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation with an open mind so they have no understanding that they present a coherent story line written over a several hundred years by many different authors. If they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit how did we end up with sixty six different books in various genres that all complement and support each other?
Of course there are variants but it is fair to say that none of the variants alter one iota of the doctrines of the Christian faith. The God of the Scripture is no construct of the Christian mind but a living reality. Many atheists are prepared to believe the fiction written by Dan Brown and others as fact. For example, Brown writes that the Dead Sea Scrolls together with the Nag Hammadi texts are ‘the earliest Christian records’ (page 331). But the scrolls never mention Jesus or anything Christian. Brown says that the divinity of Jesus was established at the Council of Nicaea by ‘a relatively close vote’ (page 315). But authentic records confirm that only two out of the 250 bishops voted against the creed.
Brown claims, ‘the Bible, as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great’ (page 313), while every student of theology knows that the New Testament Canon was largely in place before the end of the first century with most of the books written with the first sixty years of the first century. The reliability of the four Gospels is unquestionable except by those who are obscurantist. The available manuscripts from various periods can be easily compared and there are around 2,300 surviving manuscripts of all or part of the Gospels from the earliest Christian centuries. Comparing these Gospel manuscripts reveals only two passages where the textual evidence is sufficiently uncertain to question the wording of more than a verse or two, namely Mark 16:9 to end and John 7:53-8:11
There is a very strong manuscript tradition for the New Testament compared to other ancient documents. Among the New Testament manuscripts include the Gospels, two of the most extensive ones, known as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, date back to about AD350, just under three hundred years from when the Gospels were first written. Yet those who want to deny the reliability of these manuscripts given complete credence and acceptance to the nine or ten manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. The earliest of these comes from almost 900 years after Caesar wrote. Of the surviving portions of the Histories and Annals by Tacitus we have only two manuscripts. The earliest comes from around the ninth century, about 800 years after he wrote.
Tonight I sat in a church service where there were many whose lives had been transformed by God’s grace and the power of the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. There were those who had been paramilitaries, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, alcoholics. These folk now in their grace transformed lives know the peace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to help them walk in the righteousness of Christ. (We should remember that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God).What Paul could write of the Church in Corinth could be said of the many that have been made a new creation in Christ because they have responded to the good news of the Gospel, that Jesus died for our sins and rose again for our sins.
17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. [20] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV)
The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control?
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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 17, 2014 16:57:38 GMT -5
O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy power throughout the universe displayed. O mighty God, when I survey in wonder The world that formed when once the word you said, The strands of life all woven close together, The whole creation at your table fed, When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze: When your voice speaks in rolls of thunder pealing, Your lightning power bursts in bright surprise; When cooling rain, your gentle love revealing, Reflects your promise, arcing through the skies. My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! The most common English version of this hymn in the UK and Ireland is: O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,Thy power throughout the universe displayed. Refrain: Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee; How great Thou art, how great Thou art! Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee: How great Thou art, how great Thou art! Verse 2: When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze: Verse 3: And when I think that God, His Son not sparing, Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in; That on the cross, my burden gladly bearing, He bled and died to take away my sin: Verse 4: When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart! Then I shall bow in humble adoration, And there proclaim, my God, how great Thou art! For the believer we should all be looking forward to the day when 'Christ shall come with shout of acclamation.'
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 17:14:17 GMT -5
We have an ex worker professing friend who says if it becomes reality to him that the two by two fellowship is not from the begonni.g and way of god, he will become an atheist. It is a tendency for us to equate religion with God, and when religion disappoints...... alvin I cannot imagine believing any more fervently than I once did. My faith in God survived my leaving meetings. My faith crumbled long before I learned of the origins of the 2x2's. I gained an appreciation of the human capacity to be convinced by imagination. My situation precisely, matisse. I also suspect that my fervency contributed to my present evaluation of religion in general.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 17:16:10 GMT -5
O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy power throughout the universe displayed. O mighty God, when I survey in wonder The world that formed when once the word you said, The strands of life all woven close together, The whole creation at your table fed, When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze: When your voice speaks in rolls of thunder pealing, Your lightning power bursts in bright surprise; When cooling rain, your gentle love revealing, Reflects your promise, arcing through the skies. My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! The most common English version of this hymn in the UK and Ireland is: O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,Thy power throughout the universe displayed. Refrain: Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee; How great Thou art, how great Thou art! Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee: How great Thou art, how great Thou art! Verse 2: When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze: Verse 3: And when I think that God, His Son not sparing, Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in; That on the cross, my burden gladly bearing, He bled and died to take away my sin: Verse 4: When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart! Then I shall bow in humble adoration, And there proclaim, my God, how great Thou art! For the believer we should all be looking forward to the day when 'Christ shall come with shout of acclamation.' This is the author's original copyright version.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 17:40:27 GMT -5
O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy power throughout the universe displayed. O mighty God, when I survey in wonder The world that formed when once the word you said, The strands of life all woven close together, The whole creation at your table fed, When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze: When your voice speaks in rolls of thunder pealing, Your lightning power bursts in bright surprise; When cooling rain, your gentle love revealing, Reflects your promise, arcing through the skies. My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! The most common English version of this hymn in the UK and Ireland is: O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,Thy power throughout the universe displayed. Refrain: Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee; How great Thou art, how great Thou art! Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee: How great Thou art, how great Thou art! Verse 2: When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze: Verse 3: And when I think that God, His Son not sparing, Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in; That on the cross, my burden gladly bearing, He bled and died to take away my sin: Verse 4: When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart! Then I shall bow in humble adoration, And there proclaim, my God, how great Thou art! For the believer we should all be looking forward to the day when 'Christ shall come with shout of acclamation.' That's the version I remember.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 17:47:43 GMT -5
The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control? When one understands it as false hope, then the Christian Gospel is not so helpful. I found myself sinking at one point in my life after losing my faith. Although I was not suffering with a substance abuse issue, I found "The Alternative Twelve Steps: A Secular Guide to Recovery" and a competent, open-minded therapist gave me the ray of hope and the structure I needed to get back on my feet.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 17:49:52 GMT -5
dmmichgood said: ‘The length that a Christian apologist will go in twisting ideas into what they want to believe seems to know no end!’ What an incredulous statement. I would posit that it takes more blind faith on the part of an atheist to deny the existence of God. Christians do not have to twist ideas to justify our faith in the living God. The Psalmist expressed it succinctly when he says, The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1 I have many friends who are atheists, I have met many atheists during my life and most have one thing in common and that is that they have never read the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation with an open mind so they have no understanding that they present a coherent story line written over a several hundred years by many different authors. If they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit how did we end up with sixty six different books in various genres that all complement and support each other? Of course there are variants but it is fair to say that none of the variants alter one iota of the doctrines of the Christian faith. The God of the Scripture is no construct of the Christian mind but a living reality. Many atheists are prepared to believe the fiction written by Dan Brown and others as fact. For example, Brown writes that the Dead Sea Scrolls together with the Nag Hammadi texts are ‘the earliest Christian records’ (page 331). But the scrolls never mention Jesus or anything Christian. Brown says that the divinity of Jesus was established at the Council of Nicaea by ‘a relatively close vote’ (page 315). But authentic records confirm that only two out of the 250 bishops voted against the creed. Brown claims, ‘the Bible, as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great’ (page 313), while every student of theology knows that the New Testament Canon was largely in place before the end of the first century with most of the books written with the first sixty years of the first century. The reliability of the four Gospels is unquestionable except by those who are obscurantist. The available manuscripts from various periods can be easily compared and there are around 2,300 surviving manuscripts of all or part of the Gospels from the earliest Christian centuries. Comparing these Gospel manuscripts reveals only two passages where the textual evidence is sufficiently uncertain to question the wording of more than a verse or two, namely Mark 16:9 to end and John 7:53-8:11 There is a very strong manuscript tradition for the New Testament compared to other ancient documents. Among the New Testament manuscripts include the Gospels, two of the most extensive ones, known as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, date back to about AD350, just under three hundred years from when the Gospels were first written. Yet those who want to deny the reliability of these manuscripts given complete credence and acceptance to the nine or ten manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. The earliest of these comes from almost 900 years after Caesar wrote. Of the surviving portions of the Histories and Annals by Tacitus we have only two manuscripts. The earliest comes from around the ninth century, about 800 years after he wrote. Tonight I sat in a church service where there were many whose lives had been transformed by God’s grace and the power of the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. There were those who had been paramilitaries, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, alcoholics. These folk now in their grace transformed lives know the peace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to help them walk in the righteousness of Christ. (We should remember that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God).What Paul could write of the Church in Corinth could be said of the many that have been made a new creation in Christ because they have responded to the good news of the Gospel, that Jesus died for our sins and rose again for our sins. 17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. [20] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV) The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control? I think you're probably very wrong in a number of your statements. I know I for one was once a very zealous person of religion and I have read the bible from front to back during that time period. I do know that I believed exactly what you still believe. Now I have read it again, along with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and most of the Nag Hammadi Library. I have read about the early Christian Church that later became the RCC. I know of the blood shed over the Trinity doctrine within that organization. The only reason only 2 voted against it was because it was a death wish if you didn't. In fact so many Christians died in that disagreement that there can only be one conclusion. It was not something that was accepted by everyone within the church at all. So maybe you need to go ahead and read some of the information on the early church. Read some of the beliefs of the numerous 'early Christian churches'. There was by no means a consensus out there of what to believe and in many ways, there still isn't noting how many denominations claim the title of Christian. You are seeing what you want to see. And, that's fine as it seems to comfort you. What I don't think you have a right to is telling the rest of us you are superior to us because of what you believe in. Or that atheists have never read the bible without an agenda. It simply is not true and I would say there are a few on this board that did read the bible without questioning at one time. Then their eyes were opened and they saw it the way it really is. You just haven't got there yet. And, I doubt you will, and that is also ok. Just don't make outlandish statements about what atheists believe or do, because you really have no idea how many were once part of a religious organization.
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Post by rational on Aug 17, 2014 18:22:17 GMT -5
why not the question: "Is there a Heavenly Father who knows our every move, who wants us to seek his face on bended knee, and who will someday judge us and find us wanting if we have not accepted His son as our personal savior?" Matisse, there are many of us who do not believe in this "Heavenly Father" you describe but do believe in a higher power. We form our conclusions based solely on what we observe . The problem I have with the overall view of most atheists is that they lump all who believe (and that includes notable scientists) in a higher power into a "religious" class of people. Would "paranormal being" be acceptable in place of "a higher power"? What leads you to conclude that there is a higher power?But throughout history it has been evident that so-called undefinable truths frequently are defined.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 18:47:04 GMT -5
The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control? When one understands it as false hope, then the Christian Gospel is not so helpful. I found myself sinking at one point in my life after losing my faith. Although I was not suffering with a substance abuse issue, I found "The Alternative Twelve Steps: A Secular Guide to Recovery" and a competent, open-minded therapist gave me the ray of hope and the structure I needed to get back on my feet. For many people, the only difference between the Christian gospel and "addiction" is that the gospel disillusionment usually comes much further down the road -- unless, of course, you die with it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 18:47:52 GMT -5
dmmichgood said: ‘The length that a Christian apologist will go in twisting ideas into what they want to believe seems to know no end!’ What an incredulous statement. I would posit that it takes more blind faith on the part of an atheist to deny the existence of God. Christians do not have to twist ideas to justify our faith in the living God. The Psalmist expressed it succinctly when he says, The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1 I have many friends who are atheists, I have met many atheists during my life and most have one thing in common and that is that they have never read the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation with an open mind so they have no understanding that they present a coherent story line written over a several hundred years by many different authors. If they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit how did we end up with sixty six different books in various genres that all complement and support each other? Of course there are variants but it is fair to say that none of the variants alter one iota of the doctrines of the Christian faith. The God of the Scripture is no construct of the Christian mind but a living reality. Many atheists are prepared to believe the fiction written by Dan Brown and others as fact. For example, Brown writes that the Dead Sea Scrolls together with the Nag Hammadi texts are ‘the earliest Christian records’ (page 331). But the scrolls never mention Jesus or anything Christian. Brown says that the divinity of Jesus was established at the Council of Nicaea by ‘a relatively close vote’ (page 315). But authentic records confirm that only two out of the 250 bishops voted against the creed. Brown claims, ‘the Bible, as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great’ (page 313), while every student of theology knows that the New Testament Canon was largely in place before the end of the first century with most of the books written with the first sixty years of the first century. The reliability of the four Gospels is unquestionable except by those who are obscurantist. The available manuscripts from various periods can be easily compared and there are around 2,300 surviving manuscripts of all or part of the Gospels from the earliest Christian centuries. Comparing these Gospel manuscripts reveals only two passages where the textual evidence is sufficiently uncertain to question the wording of more than a verse or two, namely Mark 16:9 to end and John 7:53-8:11 There is a very strong manuscript tradition for the New Testament compared to other ancient documents. Among the New Testament manuscripts include the Gospels, two of the most extensive ones, known as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, date back to about AD350, just under three hundred years from when the Gospels were first written. Yet those who want to deny the reliability of these manuscripts given complete credence and acceptance to the nine or ten manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. The earliest of these comes from almost 900 years after Caesar wrote. Of the surviving portions of the Histories and Annals by Tacitus we have only two manuscripts. The earliest comes from around the ninth century, about 800 years after he wrote. Tonight I sat in a church service where there were many whose lives had been transformed by God’s grace and the power of the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. There were those who had been paramilitaries, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, alcoholics. These folk now in their grace transformed lives know the peace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to help them walk in the righteousness of Christ. (We should remember that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God).What Paul could write of the Church in Corinth could be said of the many that have been made a new creation in Christ because they have responded to the good news of the Gospel, that Jesus died for our sins and rose again for our sins. 17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. [20] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV) The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control? Atheists don't need any kind of "faith," to NOT believe something! Your statement indicates exactly why you don't understand what atheism means!
Good Lord, (pun intended) You wrote a thesis! Surely you understand that simple idea?
Most atheists that I know, know the bible as well as most Christians, some of them better! And they are the ones that read it with an open mind!
It certainly would take someone with "blind faith" to believe that all those different books "complemented and supported each other!" They simply do not
The god of the bible IS a construct of the Christian mind. The Christian god started out as a tribal god in the old testament amongst multitude of other tribal gods.
Look, Mr. Grey, -we may be atheists but we aren't stupid enough to believe the fiction written by Dan Brown is fact. It was the Christians that got their hackles up because they thought that Dan Brown wasn't writing fiction. Dan Brown's 'fiction' books don't compliment their belief system so they would like to disparage them anyway they can.
So last night you sat in a church service where there were people who you believe had their lives transformed by a god?
You believe that because their lives have changed for the better, that the method is justified, even though that method was via a false belief in a paranormal or supernatural being who only exists in the construction of a man-made myth ?
In other words, you believe that "the end justifies the means?"
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 18:54:42 GMT -5
dmmichgood said: ‘The length that a Christian apologist will go in twisting ideas into what they want to believe seems to know no end!’ What an incredulous statement. I would posit that it takes more blind faith on the part of an atheist to deny the existence of God. Christians do not have to twist ideas to justify our faith in the living God. The Psalmist expressed it succinctly when he says, The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1 I have many friends who are atheists, I have met many atheists during my life and most have one thing in common and that is that they have never read the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation with an open mind so they have no understanding that they present a coherent story line written over a several hundred years by many different authors. If they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit how did we end up with sixty six different books in various genres that all complement and support each other? Of course there are variants but it is fair to say that none of the variants alter one iota of the doctrines of the Christian faith. The God of the Scripture is no construct of the Christian mind but a living reality. Many atheists are prepared to believe the fiction written by Dan Brown and others as fact. For example, Brown writes that the Dead Sea Scrolls together with the Nag Hammadi texts are ‘the earliest Christian records’ (page 331). But the scrolls never mention Jesus or anything Christian. Brown says that the divinity of Jesus was established at the Council of Nicaea by ‘a relatively close vote’ (page 315). But authentic records confirm that only two out of the 250 bishops voted against the creed. Brown claims, ‘the Bible, as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great’ (page 313), while every student of theology knows that the New Testament Canon was largely in place before the end of the first century with most of the books written with the first sixty years of the first century. The reliability of the four Gospels is unquestionable except by those who are obscurantist. The available manuscripts from various periods can be easily compared and there are around 2,300 surviving manuscripts of all or part of the Gospels from the earliest Christian centuries. Comparing these Gospel manuscripts reveals only two passages where the textual evidence is sufficiently uncertain to question the wording of more than a verse or two, namely Mark 16:9 to end and John 7:53-8:11 There is a very strong manuscript tradition for the New Testament compared to other ancient documents. Among the New Testament manuscripts include the Gospels, two of the most extensive ones, known as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, date back to about AD350, just under three hundred years from when the Gospels were first written. Yet those who want to deny the reliability of these manuscripts given complete credence and acceptance to the nine or ten manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. The earliest of these comes from almost 900 years after Caesar wrote. Of the surviving portions of the Histories and Annals by Tacitus we have only two manuscripts. The earliest comes from around the ninth century, about 800 years after he wrote. Tonight I sat in a church service where there were many whose lives had been transformed by God’s grace and the power of the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. There were those who had been paramilitaries, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, alcoholics. These folk now in their grace transformed lives know the peace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to help them walk in the righteousness of Christ. (We should remember that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God).What Paul could write of the Church in Corinth could be said of the many that have been made a new creation in Christ because they have responded to the good news of the Gospel, that Jesus died for our sins and rose again for our sins. 17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. [20] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV) The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control? I think you're probably very wrong in a number of your statements. I know I for one was once a very zealous person of religion and I have read the bible from front to back during that time period. I do know that I believed exactly what you still believe. Now I have read it again, along with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and most of the Nag Hammadi Library. I have read about the early Christian Church that later became the RCC. I know of the blood shed over the Trinity doctrine within that organization. The only reason only 2 voted against it was because it was a death wish if you didn't. In fact so many Christians died in that disagreement that there can only be one conclusion. It was not something that was accepted by everyone within the church at all. So maybe you need to go ahead and read some of the information on the early church. Read some of the beliefs of the numerous 'early Christian churches'. There was by no means a consensus out there of what to believe and in many ways, there still isn't noting how many denominations claim the title of Christian. You are seeing what you want to see. And, that's fine as it seems to comfort you. What I don't think you have a right to is telling the rest of us you are superior to us because of what you believe in. Or that atheists have never read the bible without an agenda. It simply is not true and I would say there are a few on this board that did read the bible without questioning at one time. Then their eyes were opened and they saw it the way it really is. You just haven't got there yet. And, I doubt you will, and that is also ok. Just don't make outlandish statements about what atheists believe or do, because you really have no idea how many were once part of a religious organization. When a person believes that all truth is contained in their present range of vision, they need to remove their blinders. Truth is not a vision -- it is a truth.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 17, 2014 18:57:20 GMT -5
I cannot imagine believing any more fervently than I once did. My faith in God survived my leaving meetings. My faith crumbled long before I learned of the origins of the 2x2's. I gained an appreciation of the human capacity to be convinced by imagination. My situation precisely, matisse. I also suspect that my fervency contributed to my present evaluation of religion in general. It's interesting to hear you both say that!
I have often wondered the same about myself.
It was with the same intensity that I had believed in God, that sought out why people believe in a religion.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 19:09:47 GMT -5
Irvine, do you really believe atheists are fools? I applaud your atheist friends graciousness in their friendship towards you, if that really is your view, which I kinda doubt but ? Incredibly difficult to find doctors, dentists, employees, teachers, grocery suppliers, etc etc who are not "fools", isn't it. I thot you and me were the only "smart" ones and now I am wondering a little about you...lol. cheer s. Alvin
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2014 19:10:32 GMT -5
I think you're probably very wrong in a number of your statements. I know I for one was once a very zealous person of religion and I have read the bible from front to back during that time period. I do know that I believed exactly what you still believe. Now I have read it again, along with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and most of the Nag Hammadi Library. I have read about the early Christian Church that later became the RCC. I know of the blood shed over the Trinity doctrine within that organization. The only reason only 2 voted against it was because it was a death wish if you didn't. In fact so many Christians died in that disagreement that there can only be one conclusion. It was not something that was accepted by everyone within the church at all. So maybe you need to go ahead and read some of the information on the early church. Read some of the beliefs of the numerous 'early Christian churches'. There was by no means a consensus out there of what to believe and in many ways, there still isn't noting how many denominations claim the title of Christian. You are seeing what you want to see. And, that's fine as it seems to comfort you. What I don't think you have a right to is telling the rest of us you are superior to us because of what you believe in. Or that atheists have never read the bible without an agenda. It simply is not true and I would say there are a few on this board that did read the bible without questioning at one time. Then their eyes were opened and they saw it the way it really is. You just haven't got there yet. And, I doubt you will, and that is also ok. Just don't make outlandish statements about what atheists believe or do, because you really have no idea how many were once part of a religious organization. Christ's simple yet powerful message is drowned in religious dogma. Mahatma Ghandi was so right: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 19:52:37 GMT -5
My situation precisely, matisse. I also suspect that my fervency contributed to my present evaluation of religion in general. It's interesting to hear you both say that!
I have often wondered the same about myself.
It was with the same intensity that I had believed in God, that sought out why people believe in a religion.
dmmich - I think that is true. When a person's religion is more than a matter of right or wrong, but a matter of eternal life or torture, one doesn't make any choices lightly. But when such people are disappointed with what they have, they have two options: (1) They look for a better version of what they have/had, i.e. they look for another denomination or interpretation; or they (2) Examine the foundation of the whole system, i.e. they examine exact origin of each tenet of the belief system before Christianity was built upon it. In engineering, those are the people who condemn perfectly comfortable and important buildings.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 20:06:09 GMT -5
Is religion a human construct as dmg said before and does it take more effort to believe than not believe?
Is it easier to believe in the supernatural or be an atheist? Which is born into us?
I believe that a belief in the supernatural (call it God if you like) is innate and to believe there is no God or supernatural power or force behind life and nature takes a change in belief - not the other way round.
Atheism takes effort and a change in belief, not the other way round.
Are we born knowing certain things or are we born 'a clean slate'?
Babies cry - it is a natural reflex, which is then reinforced by a positive or negative response to increase or decrease the behaviour.
Babies and children jump and cry if frightened. That is an inborn response not a human construct.
Emotions such as happy, sad, angry etc are born in us - they are not human constructs. These can however, be increased or decreased according to life experiences.
So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences.
With God there are no gaps as He is the foundation of everything, atheism on the other hand is full of gaps. We are born with a spirit and belief in God. Our spirit is alive and we can try and 'kill it off' with our belief or claim a lack of one, but the fact remains it is still there. To have hope is better than no hope. Christ does not just offer hope he offers a life in this life and the next. We are assured of salvation. Muslims on the other hand only have hope. They believe they will not know until they die if they go to paradise or not. Christians on the other hand have assurance of salvation. Jesus offers salvation, not just hope.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 20:33:31 GMT -5
Is religion a human construct as dmg said before and does it take more effort to believe than not believe? Is it easier to believe in the supernatural or be an atheist? Which is born into us? I believe that a belief in the supernatural (call it God if you like) is innate and to believe there is no God or supernatural power or force behind life and nature takes a change in belief - not the other way round. Atheism takes effort and a change in belief, not the other way round. Are we born knowing certain things or are we born 'a clean slate'? Babies cry - it is a natural reflex, which is then reinforced by a positive or negative response to increase or decrease the behaviour. Babies and children jump and cry if frightened. That is an inborn response not a human construct. Emotions such as happy, sad, angry etc are born in us - they are not human constructs. These can however, be increased or decreased according to life experiences. So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences. With God there are no gaps as He is the foundation of everything, atheism on the other hand is full of gaps. We are born with a spirit and belief in God. Our spirit is alive and we can try and 'kill it off' with our belief or claim a lack of one, but the fact remains it is still there. To have hope is better than no hope. Christ does not just offer hope he offers a life in this life and the next. We are assured of salvation. Muslims on the other hand only have hope. They believe they will not know until they die if they go to paradise or not. Christians on the other hand have assurance of salvation. Jesus offers salvation, not just hope. I was robbed of any chance to claim an innate belief in the supernatural since I attended meetings and presumably listened to some muffled version of hymns and prayers and testimonies while still in utero. I was steeped in it even before I drew my first breath! Atheism was what was left with when years later I could no longer suspend disbelief (maintain "the construct") and my concept of god naturally imploded.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 20:36:35 GMT -5
My situation precisely, matisse. I also suspect that my fervency contributed to my present evaluation of religion in general. It's interesting to hear you both say that!
I have often wondered the same about myself.
It was with the same intensity that I had believed in God, that sought out why people believe in a religion.
It probably is for me too now that I think about it. My research started 15 years ago, about the same time I found my birth family and they turned out to be just as fanatically religious and my adopted family. I couldn't get over how ironic that was!! So I started studying trying to figure out why people believed what they did. I knew why I had, and why I didn't anymore, but I wanted to know the history of Christianity. My studies made me interested in the history of all the major religions and it was fascinating once you started to put the pieces together. Each religion thinks their's is the right one, but they no so little about each other's beliefs and history. They really don't understand just how much many of the religions have in common, but they negate the truth of the others. If it wasn't so sad and sometimes dangerous, it would be amusing.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 20:38:00 GMT -5
Matisse, you were still born with an innate belief regardless of hearing it in the womb as you would not have had any understanding of what you were hearing in the womb.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 20:40:44 GMT -5
You were still born with an innate belief and more so if you heard it in the womb. Just you did not have any understanding of what you were hearing in the womb. No, I was conditioned by my parents, beginning before I was born.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 20:41:08 GMT -5
It's interesting to hear you both say that!
I have often wondered the same about myself.
It was with the same intensity that I had believed in God, that sought out why people believe in a religion.
It probably is for me too now that I think about it. My research started 15 years ago, about the same time I found my birth family and they turned out to be just as fanatically religious and my adopted family. I couldn't get over how ironic that was!! So I started studying trying to figure out why people believed what they did. I knew why I had, and why I didn't anymore, but I wanted to know the history of Christianity. My studies made me interested in the history of all the major religions and it was fascinating once you started to put the pieces together. Each religion thinks their's is the right one, but they no so little about each other's beliefs and history. They really don't understand just how much many of the religions have in common, but they negate the truth of the others. If it wasn't so sad and sometimes dangerous, it would be amusing. We actually know as much about the history of religions including our own, as atheists do or do not. You make a lot of wild unsubstantiated statements based on nothing.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 20:43:30 GMT -5
Is religion a human construct as dmg said before and does it take more effort to believe than not believe? Is it easier to believe in the supernatural or be an atheist? Which is born into us? I believe that a belief in the supernatural (call it God if you like) is innate and to believe there is no God or supernatural power or force behind life and nature takes a change in belief - not the other way round. Atheism takes effort and a change in belief, not the other way round. Are we born knowing certain things or are we born 'a clean slate'? Babies cry - it is a natural reflex, which is then reinforced by a positive or negative response to increase or decrease the behaviour. Babies and children jump and cry if frightened. That is an inborn response not a human construct. Emotions such as happy, sad, angry etc are born in us - they are not human constructs. These can however, be increased or decreased according to life experiences. So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences. With God there are no gaps as He is the foundation of everything, atheism on the other hand is full of gaps. We are born with a spirit and belief in God. Our spirit is alive and we can try and 'kill it off' with our belief or claim a lack of one, but the fact remains it is still there. To have hope is better than no hope. Christ does not just offer hope he offers a life in this life and the next. We are assured of salvation. Muslims on the other hand only have hope. They believe they will not know until they die if they go to paradise or not. Christians on the other hand have assurance of salvation. Jesus offers salvation, not just hope. Well look at it this way Mary. How hard is it for you to not believe in the unicorn being the goddess of all that exists? Not very hard at all is it. Takes no effort at all. Same with God. Once the teachings and programmings from birth fall away, you wonder how you could have invested so much into 'believing' in something you really can't prove exists anymore than a unicorn being a goddess. I am very sure my grandson has no idea there is a God. And, I'm pretty sure when I was his age, neither did I. It wasn't too long after that though my parents started their teachings and so did the workers. It's learned. Just because people feel more comfortable thinking there is a parent in the sky looking out for them, doesn't mean it's reality and doesn't mean it's innate. Maybe it's the wanting to be taken care of that innate.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 20:44:37 GMT -5
It probably is for me too now that I think about it. My research started 15 years ago, about the same time I found my birth family and they turned out to be just as fanatically religious and my adopted family. I couldn't get over how ironic that was!! So I started studying trying to figure out why people believed what they did. I knew why I had, and why I didn't anymore, but I wanted to know the history of Christianity. My studies made me interested in the history of all the major religions and it was fascinating once you started to put the pieces together. Each religion thinks their's is the right one, but they no so little about each other's beliefs and history. They really don't understand just how much many of the religions have in common, but they negate the truth of the others. If it wasn't so sad and sometimes dangerous, it would be amusing. We actually know as much about the history of religions including our own, as atheists do or do not. You make a lot of wild unsubstantiated statements based on nothing. Really? then you are unique. Many don't even know the history of their own religion let alone others.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 20:45:31 GMT -5
Is religion a human construct as dmg said before and does it take more effort to believe than not believe? Is it easier to believe in the supernatural or be an atheist? Which is born into us? I believe that a belief in the supernatural (call it God if you like) is innate and to believe there is no God or supernatural power or force behind life and nature takes a change in belief - not the other way round. Atheism takes effort and a change in belief, not the other way round. Are we born knowing certain things or are we born 'a clean slate'? Babies cry - it is a natural reflex, which is then reinforced by a positive or negative response to increase or decrease the behaviour. Babies and children jump and cry if frightened. That is an inborn response not a human construct. Emotions such as happy, sad, angry etc are born in us - they are not human constructs. These can however, be increased or decreased according to life experiences. So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences. With God there are no gaps as He is the foundation of everything, atheism on the other hand is full of gaps. We are born with a spirit and belief in God. Our spirit is alive and we can try and 'kill it off' with our belief or claim a lack of one, but the fact remains it is still there. To have hope is better than no hope. Christ does not just offer hope he offers a life in this life and the next. We are assured of salvation. Muslims on the other hand only have hope. They believe they will not know until they die if they go to paradise or not. Christians on the other hand have assurance of salvation. Jesus offers salvation, not just hope. You're very big on stereotypes.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 20:45:32 GMT -5
You were still born with an innate belief and more so if you heard it in the womb. Just you did not have any understanding of what you were hearing in the womb. No, I was conditioned by my parents, beginning before I was born. I had changed my post you quoted above before I saw yours. It was that you would have no understanding of what you were hearing in the womb. You would not know that it was religious or not. Matisse, you were still born with an innate belief regardless of hearing it in the womb as you would not have had any understanding of what you were hearing in the womb.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 20:47:15 GMT -5
We actually know as much about the history of religions including our own, as atheists do or do not. You make a lot of wild unsubstantiated statements based on nothing. Really? then you are unique. Many don't even know the history of their own religion let alone others. You are generalising again, Snow. Many meaning - Who ? - those in your small world because those in my world know a lot. Seems as if you do not mix with many to know what they know.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 20:47:29 GMT -5
Matisse, you were still born with an innate belief regardless of hearing it in the womb as you would not have had any understanding of what you were hearing in the womb. I totally disagree with this. We are programmed from the beginning and there is nothing innate about it. I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one because there is no proof that belief in a God is innate. Just because many do doesn't make it true.
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 20:49:43 GMT -5
Is religion a human construct as dmg said before and does it take more effort to believe than not believe? Is it easier to believe in the supernatural or be an atheist? Which is born into us? I believe that a belief in the supernatural (call it God if you like) is innate and to believe there is no God or supernatural power or force behind life and nature takes a change in belief - not the other way round. Atheism takes effort and a change in belief, not the other way round. Are we born knowing certain things or are we born 'a clean slate'? Babies cry - it is a natural reflex, which is then reinforced by a positive or negative response to increase or decrease the behaviour. Babies and children jump and cry if frightened. That is an inborn response not a human construct. Emotions such as happy, sad, angry etc are born in us - they are not human constructs. These can however, be increased or decreased according to life experiences. So to say that belief in God is an human construct I believe in incorrect. I believe that a belief in the supernatural is innate the same as many others things are born in us. It can be increased or decreased according to our environment but the belief is there and to not believe is a human construct based on life experiences. So I conclude it is easier to believe in the supernatural than not. That we start with the belief which can be altered by our experiences. With God there are no gaps as He is the foundation of everything, atheism on the other hand is full of gaps. We are born with a spirit and belief in God. Our spirit is alive and we can try and 'kill it off' with our belief or claim a lack of one, but the fact remains it is still there. To have hope is better than no hope. Christ does not just offer hope he offers a life in this life and the next. We are assured of salvation. Muslims on the other hand only have hope. They believe they will not know until they die if they go to paradise or not. Christians on the other hand have assurance of salvation. Jesus offers salvation, not just hope. You're very big on stereotypes. No stereotypes here Bob. You have to think of a better word if you disagree.
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